10:06:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
10:06:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-irc
10:06:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:06:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
10:06:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
10:06:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM already started
10:06:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
10:06:54 <trackbot> Date: 03 February 2010
10:07:14 <conrad> Zakim, code?
10:07:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), conrad
10:07:28 <Zakim> +Yves
10:07:47 <jackjansen> zakim, I am on the phone too...
10:07:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am on the phone too', jackjansen
10:08:02 <Zakim> +??P8
10:08:11 <conrad> Zakim, p8 is me
10:08:11 <Zakim> sorry, conrad, I do not recognize a party named 'p8'
10:08:40 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aaaa
10:08:53 <silvia> zakim, aaaa is me
10:08:53 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
10:09:07 <erik> chair: erik
10:09:20 <erik> regrets: davy, raphael, michael
10:10:56 <conrad> scribenick: conrad
10:11:30 <conrad> Topic:1 Admin
10:11:42 <conrad> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 27 January 2009 telecon:
10:11:46 <silvia> +1
10:11:49 <jackjansen> +1
10:11:49 <erik> +1
10:12:20 <conrad> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 27 January 2009 telecon
10:12:31 <conrad> ACTION-127
10:13:20 <conrad> Thierry/Yves to look for the charter extension
10:13:39 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:13:39 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:13:57 <conrad> extension has not yet been granted, but should not be an issue -- just w3 process
10:14:27 <conrad> Erik: submission of MTAP SI on Semantic Multimedia ongoing
10:14:29 <tmichel> the extension should have discussed at last week W3M meeting, but is was not
10:14:32 <conrad> 2. F2F meeting
10:14:42 <tmichel> plh said it should be discussed this afternnoon
10:14:44 <conrad> Draft Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda
10:15:02 <conrad> venue and location are booked by thierry and erik
10:15:14 <conrad> erik: over the next 2 weeks we will have to fill in the agend
10:15:15 <conrad> a
10:15:33 <conrad> we have to go to last call in march, there is a lot to discuss, it will be important
10:15:43 <conrad> there will be 5 there, hopefully the others can attend via phone
10:16:09 <conrad> 3. SPECIFICATION:
10:16:25 <conrad> Raphael to fix the weird character in the spec document
10:16:25 <conrad> CLOSED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0102.html
10:16:31 <conrad> 3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax: (Yves)
10:16:38 <conrad> Bug in the npt specification:
10:16:38 <conrad> Philip: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Nov/0023.html
10:16:38 <conrad> Dom: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0093.html
10:17:11 <conrad> erik: we changed from abnf to ebnf (?) yves, is your action still valid?
10:17:13 <conrad> yves: yes
10:17:13 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:17:13 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:17:33 <conrad> silvia: is there an issue with the change?
10:17:52 <conrad> yves: no, i am using abnf for other things, but i'm sure ebnf shall be similar
10:18:01 <conrad> silvia: then we only have the parsing issues dom mentioned, which are minor
10:18:16 <conrad> yves: the npt definition was not exactly correct, that was the only thing holding up the grammar
10:18:26 <conrad> silvia: yes, as discussed in email, just a small change
10:18:32 <conrad> yves: i will look at that before the f2f
10:18:38 <conrad> (but i will be away next week)
10:18:42 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:18:42 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:19:02 <conrad> 3.2 Protocol for URI fragment Resolution in HTTP
10:19:25 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:19:25 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:19:33 <conrad> Erik: any problem with the changes proposed by Philip?
10:19:56 <conrad> silvia: no, they clarify things, they might have made the document structure more complicated. philip also proposed some changes to document structure but they make sense
10:20:00 <conrad> erik: i agree
10:20:31 <conrad> jackjansen, i would be against a structure where normative and non-normative are not separated. I would like them to be clearly spaced
10:21:08 <conrad> silvia: we should put an overview table at the end of the document of what is normative and informative, rather than spreading it through the document. most of it is obvious, but it is important to put the info in one place
10:21:31 <conrad> jackjansen, the nice thing about a table is that if it indexes all the normative stuff, you can use it to find what you actually need
10:21:56 <conrad> jackjansen, not sure i like the idea that it should be clear from the wording, because then in non-normative text you have to refrain from using SHOULD, MUST etc.
10:22:06 <conrad> jackjansen, it should be clear from the layout which is which
10:22:31 <conrad> silvia, comments in-line about what is normative is not useful
10:22:52 <conrad> jackjansen, in SMIL spec, we put in text markers for people who use screen readers etc. (as well as colors)
10:23:14 <conrad> jackjansen, in the published document there are only text markers -- the visual markers were not included
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10:23:41 <conrad> silvia, make a note now, put these in if we come to committee draft
10:23:58 <conrad> jackjansen, the xml format we use has a way to distinguish paragraphs, so if we use that we can modify the layout in stylesheet
10:24:13 <conrad> davy, distinguish in screen and aural?
10:24:32 <conrad> jackjansen, just use the xml to make a clear distinction between normative and informative text
10:25:10 <davy> s/davy/thierry
10:25:43 <tmichel> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-SMIL3-20081201/smil-structure.html
10:26:16 <conrad> thierry: we should put a div with class="normative" or class="informative"
10:27:12 <conrad> ACTION: Erik to mark up the spec with normative and informative classes
10:27:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Mark up the spec with normative and informative classes [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].
10:27:43 <conrad> thierry: do we also want to have text saying "this section is normative"?
10:27:51 <conrad> silvia, that can be part of the style
10:28:36 <conrad> silvia, i guess the table is already in the document, but a table at the end with a reference to the normative parts would be nice
10:30:06 <conrad> ACTION-123: Yves to come up with ABNF for header syntax
10:30:06 <trackbot> ACTION-123 Come up with ABNF for header syntax notes added
10:30:35 <conrad> erik: action 133 is ongoing
10:31:11 <conrad> yves: re: action 123, need to find the proposal from the archives
10:31:23 <conrad> Review of the complete Section 5.2.1 for group approval
10:32:06 <conrad> postponed (we have not all yet reviewed it)
10:32:30 <conrad> erik, this should be done before the f2f
10:33:03 <conrad> silvia: i have read it and am happy with it, apart from minor issues in the ebnf; dom also suggested to put the ebnf syntax together in one place; maybe we should just repeat it all at the end
10:34:09 <conrad> silvia, he made a few changes to make it easier to read, along the lines of the html5 spec
10:34:23 <conrad> silvia: i'm happy with what he's done, i don't have any issues
10:34:29 <conrad> erik: ok, tbc
10:34:36 <conrad> 3.3 Rendering of Media Fragments URI in UA:
10:34:44 <conrad>  ACTION-130
10:34:53 <conrad> Silvia to draft a new subsection in the Section 5 regarding the rendering in the UI of media fragments, at least for the temporal dimension
10:35:05 <conrad> silvia: i sent an email just before this meeting
10:35:23 <conrad> silvia: i've put a paragraph into section 5.1.4
10:35:25 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-overview-interpretation
10:35:40 <conrad> so basically the action is done
10:36:12 <conrad> silvia: davy, i've made a mention of spatial,track dimensions
10:36:22 <conrad> davy: ok, i'll work over that too
10:36:46 <conrad> jackjansen, i really like silvia's suggestion, but we should make sure that in the protocol we have enough detail to actually implement it
10:37:28 <conrad> jackjansen, which touches on issue 5, similar to silvia's note about the temporal domain, but in the spatial domain
10:37:47 <conrad> jackjansen, we should ensure that the server provides any information such as width, height etc. so that clipping can be implemented client-side
10:38:11 <conrad> silvia, we need to specify these things for each dimension, please add a paragraph
10:38:38 <conrad> jackjansen, also at the end of section 5.1.4, a very simple graphic of a timeline of a video playing would be handy to help with understanding the intention
10:38:51 <conrad> close action-130
10:38:51 <trackbot> ACTION-130 Draft a new subsection in the Section 5 regarding the rendering in the UI of media fragments, at least for the temporal dimension closed
10:39:44 <conrad> action: davy,erik to extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension
10:39:44 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - davy,erik
10:40:23 <conrad> action: erik to extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension
10:40:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].
10:41:15 <conrad> action: davy to create a diagram of video timeline to explain temporal dimension
10:41:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Create a diagram of video timeline to explain temporal dimension [on Davy Van Deursen - due 2010-02-10].
10:41:31 <conrad> action: jack to check that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol
10:41:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Check that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol [on Jack Jansen - due 2010-02-10].
10:43:16 <conrad> 3.4 Discovery of 'Track' and 'Named' fragments:
10:43:27 <conrad> silvia: nothing to discuss yet, this is being worked on in ogg
10:43:36 <conrad> 3.4, 3.5 to be discussed later on
10:44:03 <conrad> 5. TEST CASES: (Michael)
10:44:17 <conrad> erik: i'm in favour of making next phone conf all about test cases, for a whole hour
10:44:35 <jackjansen> q+
10:44:58 <conrad> silvia, last week we mentioned that the foms people would be keen to have an indication on which sections are fairly ready, and my suggestion was that section 5.2.1 can be implemented
10:46:04 <Yves> the only indication of stability is publishing LC or CR
10:47:57 <conrad> conrad: perhaps we don't need to specify that the mechanism for handling client-side fragments involves http byte-range requests: just specify that "if the client can already seek over the network, honor this fragment syntax"
10:48:38 <conrad> silvia, last week we decided that rather than pulling out parts of the document which are stable, we simply mark within the document how mature each part of the document is, so implementers can go ahead
10:48:56 <conrad> silvia, whereas last call etc. is really for the whole document; we don't want to hold back implementers
10:49:01 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
10:49:01 <Zakim> Conrad should now be muted
10:49:27 <conrad> Yves, the parts which are unstable may lead to changes in the parts we think are stable now
10:49:34 <conrad> silvia, unlikely as that section is really trivial
10:50:02 <conrad> jackjansen, that section has very little value with out parts of chapters 3, 4
10:50:17 <conrad> jackjansen, i like the sentiment about allowing implementers to start implementing stuff, but ...
10:50:32 <conrad> silvia, yes, but we have already been through section 3 substantially, any changes will be minor
10:51:12 <conrad> jackjansen, i probably agree, but then even if we mark sections as "stable" we should specify that it may change anyway. we don't want to be editing for all eternity like the whatwg is doing
10:51:36 <conrad> silvia, we should start having implementations. we are really close to having the temporal stuff finalized, even though the headers etc. may still be under discussion
10:52:04 <conrad> silvia, if we keep working on the spec without any implementations, it's not going to move ahead in a reasonable amount of time
10:52:22 <conrad> jackjansen, if we mark these things as not "stable/unstable" but "reaonsably stable, mature" etc. that is fine with me
10:52:37 <conrad> silvia, "ready for test implementations" would be a useful indication
10:52:39 <conrad> erik: fine by me too
10:52:45 <conrad> 4. ISSUES
10:52:49 <jackjansen> conrad, I'd like a note "for test implementation" or something.
10:53:04 <conrad> issue-4.1
10:53:24 <conrad> erik: postpone non-active issues
10:54:02 <conrad> 5. TEST CASES
10:54:17 <conrad> jackjansen, is a phone conference the best medium for discussing details of test cases?
10:54:55 <conrad> silvia, i agree -- we should prepare the group for the meeting re: test cases, but it is up to michael
10:56:08 <conrad> silvia, whether we prepare for the test cases next week or not, we should at least talk about it then
10:56:36 <conrad> 6. IMPLEMENTATION:
10:56:43 <conrad> erik: any news?
10:57:05 <conrad> none
10:57:10 <conrad> all ongoing
10:57:15 <conrad> 7. AOB
10:57:44 <conrad> none
10:57:48 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
10:57:48 <Zakim> Conrad should no longer be muted
10:58:40 <Zakim> -Jack
10:58:42 <Zakim> -Yves
10:58:46 <Zakim> -silvia
10:58:47 <Zakim> -Erik
10:58:49 <Zakim> -Conrad
10:58:56 <davy> davy has left #mediafrag
10:59:52 <davy> davy has joined #mediafrag
11:00:00 <davy> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html
11:00:02 <Yves> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
11:00:36 <erik> present: conrad, davy, erik, silvia, thierry, yves, jack
11:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
11:01:08 <erik> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:01:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html erik
11:02:04 <davy> davy has left #mediafrag
11:03:34 <Zakim> -Thierry
11:03:35 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
11:03:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Erik, Thierry, Yves, Jack, Conrad, +61.2.801.2.aaaa, silvia
13:14:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:14:51 <conrad> bye bye Zakim!
14:32:13 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #mediafrag