18:04:03 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 18:04:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-tagmem-irc 18:04:18 trackbot, start meeting 18:04:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:04:22 Zakim, this will be TAG 18:04:23 ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 18:04:23 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 18:04:24 Date: 28 January 2010 18:04:34 zakim, who is here? 18:04:34 On the phone I see Masinter, Raman, Jonathan_Rees, noah, DanC 18:04:35 On IRC I see RRSAgent, jar, masinter, Zakim, raman, DanC, noah, trackbot 18:04:39 Chair: Noah Mendelsohn 18:04:49 Scribe: Larry Masinter 18:04:58 scribenick: masinter 18:05:04 DanA is opitional, regrets from Tim 18:05:35 DanC has joined #tagmem 18:05:38 noah notes his tag work is backing up, tempted to cancel, but hoping John can scribe and leaving meeting schedule 18:05:51 topic: approval of minutes from 21st 18:05:58 +DanC.a 18:06:11 -DanC 18:06:17 minutes of 21st are approved 18:06:22 to wit http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/01/21-minutes 18:06:27 topic: administrative items 18:06:48 + +44.163.567.aaaa 18:07:00 Noah: prioritizing agenda: good news in that there is work happening. difficulty getting balance 18:07:08 zakim, aaaa is DanA 18:07:08 +DanA; got it 18:08:04 noah: request: active in any discussion? please step up and moderate discussion to reach conclusion, summarize different positions, etc. 18:08:13 ht has joined #tagmem 18:08:23 zakim, who is here? 18:08:23 On the phone I see Masinter, Raman, Jonathan_Rees, noah, DanC.a, DanA 18:08:24 On IRC I see ht, DanC, RRSAgent, jar, masinter, Zakim, raman, noah, trackbot 18:08:24 zakim, please call ht-781 18:08:24 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:08:26 +Ht 18:09:07 DKA has joined #tagmem 18:09:26 zakim, DanA is DKA 18:09:26 +DKA; got it 18:09:27 zakim, who is here? 18:09:28 On the phone I see Masinter, Raman, Jonathan_Rees, noah, DanC.a, DKA, Ht 18:09:29 On IRC I see DKA, ht, DanC, RRSAgent, jar, masinter, Zakim, raman, noah, trackbot 18:09:59 topic: W3C TAG position on policy mechanisms for Web APIs and Services 18:10:04 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/01/28-agenda 18:10:13 Email from Frederick Hirsch: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0014.html 18:11:09 The DAP WG is only beginning to consider the privacy topic and would 18:11:09 appreciate all help it can obtain from anyone that can help us 18:11:09 achieve a good practical result in a reasonable time. Our initial 18:11:09 starting point will be to examine the decision of the Geolocation 18:11:09 Working Group in more detail. 18:11:27 [...describes a proposa...] 18:11:28 While we intend to look at each of the assertions made in that 18:11:28 resolution and see if and how they would apply to our own set of 18:11:28 APIs, we would very much welcome the TAG’s perspective on that 18:11:28 resolution 18:11:34 q? 18:11:55 LMM: There was significant unhappiness with geolocation resolution, and I think we should say it's not a good precedent. 18:12:26 DAK: As a member of that WG, not sure I can concur 18:12:35 LM: Don't concur there was unhappiness? 18:12:43 Noah things LM meant "the TAG was unhappy" 18:13:07 LM: There was a letter from IETF, and formal objections from Cisco and Center for Privacy and Freedom 18:13:12 q+ to ask whether this decision predates those objections 18:13:20 Did I scribe that right? 18:13:28 no 18:13:38 DAK: I spoke to the area director for IETF recently. 18:13:55 "the TAG was unhappy" needs a pointer to records. I'm pretty sure the TAG hasn't decided anything in this space 18:14:45 Right, Dan. My recollection is that we had discussion of the unhappiness of TAG members. I also think we did send an email, but not sure "unhappiness" quite characterizes what that email said. Can't find reference now. Can anyone? 18:15:03 dak: there was a meeting. The browser vendors, Google, and our (whose?) opinions were that it was inappropriate things to put privacy hooks into the API 18:15:15 q? 18:15:31 s/dak/dka/ 18:17:08 dka: the input from the EFP and GeoPriv working group was taken very seriously by the group chairs, and there was a lot of text put into the document. I wasn't a direct participant but I was mentoring someone who was, and my understanding was there was a lot of outreach. Still we still got a formal objection. 18:17:17 ack next 18:17:18 DanC, you wanted to ask whether this decision predates those objections 18:17:24 q+ 18:18:00 dka: i think it was last call, and it was not a single decision 18:18:07 (discussion about chronology) 18:18:23 danc: decision in the GeoLocation working group resolution 18:18:28 q? 18:19:06 danc: Did the Geolocation decision (see the email we've been reading) come before the IETF letter, or vice versa? 18:19:13 DC: Trying to figure out if the asserted "unhappiness" is cause or effect 18:20:14 q+ 18:20:39 I concur with "don't generalize" 18:21:54 What i am trying to say is that the GeoLocation decision was reached after much discussion which seemed to be localized to a single decision about a single API to access a single bit of information: geographic location. Because this was so finely argued and the compromise reached after much discussion and contextualized, the Device API working group should not use this decision as a precedent. 18:22:00 Larry mentioned this note from me: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0102.html , agreed with reasons why issues for Geolocation may not generalize, even if we posit that the geolocation solution was OK for that. 18:22:06 ack next 18:22:08 q+ 18:22:14 q? 18:22:16 ack next 18:22:55 q+ to get back to Frederick's request 18:22:55 dka: there was some politics around the responses 18:22:59 q+ 18:23:05 ack next 18:23:22 ack next 18:23:23 noah, you wanted to get back to Frederick's request 18:23:33 danc: frederik hearst seems to be happy with the email exchange, are we done? 18:23:51 noah: gets back to question. His note says: 18:23:55 From Frederick's note: 18:23:56 Our initial 18:23:56 starting point will be to examine the decision of the Geolocation 18:23:56 Working Group in more detail. This decision was *not* to include 18:23:56 privacy rules as part of the API. That decision is documented with 18:23:56 the following Geolocation WG resolution: 18:23:56 s/frederik hearst/Frederick Hirsch/ 18:24:57 noah: what he's saying that we're taking this as a possible starting point. Some of us weighed in and the TAG discussed it. 18:25:23 noah: we could more formally say something as the TAG, given the concerns, the TAG wishes to signal real reservations 18:25:29 q? 18:25:30 q? 18:25:37 ack next 18:25:43 q+ to discuss technical solution 18:25:48 q+ 18:26:26 LM: I spent two hoursin IETF meeting in Stockholm with IETF area directors and WG chairs. Their concern was that a compromise may have been reached, but that was not a good prededent. 18:27:52 (Noah, is what you're saying in your msg? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0046.html ) 18:28:25 noah: I have suggested several times: if you're not going to put it in the API, show that your API has sufficient extensibility mechanism, possibly those that allow you to decide whether extensions are present.... and show how this can be used. (noah explains details of how this can be written, not able to scribe but remember Noah's email) 18:28:39 q? 18:28:41 naoh: I'm unhappy to have the document not at least talk about that 18:28:44 ack next 18:28:45 noah, you wanted to discuss technical solution 18:29:52 dka: on the issue of what we tell Frederick, it's appropriate to say that you should not take this as a precedent. There are some specific technical reservations that Google, Opera and Mozilla have to the kind of approach that Noah is suggesting, that essentially boil down to something that is non-enforcable 18:30:04 noah: worth nothing, but shouldn't resolve this 18:30:09 (stronger than "not enforceable"; as I recall, it was "misleading") 18:30:35 noah: ask DanA with help from Larry to draft a short response that you think the TAG should send. 18:30:44 q+ to try "Don't take it as precedent" today 18:30:49 ack next 18:30:58 ack next 18:30:59 DanC, you wanted to try "Don't take it as precedent" today 18:31:02 larry: agrees to review what DKA writes 18:31:54 trackbot, status? 18:32:09 action: Daniel to draft response to Fredrick, short and to the point. Larry to review. 18:32:10 Created ACTION-380 - Draft response to Fredrick, short and to the point. Larry to review. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-02-04]. 18:32:29 q? 18:32:37 note: Daniel in tracker is DKA 18:33:28 topic: ACTION-351: Workshop on persistence 18:33:44 ht: We've been talking off and on since last summer's F2F about persistent domain names as one component of the reservations people have about using URIs for persistent identifiers 18:35:01 ht: 100 years for now if W3C doesn't exist and MIT screws up, we've discussed many solutions, including new IANA top level domain, or creating some public body to insure the persistence of these domain names. At our discussion in December consensus was we shouldn't take this on, and that we should hold a workshop. 18:35:40 ht: have spoken to director of Digital Curation Center 18:36:09 -> http://www.dcc.ac.uk/ Digital Curation Centre 18:36:28 ht: might be in June 18:36:38 I believe Henry said DCC as @ University of Edinburgh 18:36:40 ht: procedural question 18:36:59 What does sponsoring involve? Money? Our good name? 18:37:00 ... do we agree to approving such a workshop 18:37:16 s/approving/sponsoring/ 18:37:21 ... and colocate a TAG meeting in Edinburgh in June 18:38:01 noah: might have difficulty with late June 18:38:15 (discussion about scheduling and conflict) 18:38:17 amy has joined #tagmem 18:38:40 Amy, we're considering a TAG-related workshop in June 18:38:52 in Edinburgh 18:38:54 and a TAG meeting before or after. 18:39:03 maybe you could dial in, Amy? 18:39:11 ok 18:39:15 TAG1? 18:39:19 Zakim, passcode? 18:39:19 the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC 18:39:39 s/0824/XXXX/ 18:39:53 +Amy 18:40:10 I'm happy with Edinburgh in June. 18:40:29 noah explains to Amy scheduling issues 18:40:39 q+ 18:42:22 ...or I would be happy to host the TAG meeting in London around this time as well... 18:42:48 http://www.isr.uci.edu/events/twist/twist99/program.html 18:42:53 workshp should be at least 1.5 days 18:43:55 (continued discussion of scheduling) 18:44:41 q? 18:46:23 -Amy 18:46:31 amy has left #tagmem 18:46:41 ack next 18:46:54 q+ to ask what "sponsoring" means 18:47:02 LM: I would argue against this as a priority 18:47:29 noah: could be independent of having a TAG meeting at all 18:47:41 The TAG doesn't need to be involved, but it ought to be 18:47:56 noah: you asked that we 'sponsor' this? 18:48:06 ht: be one of the two organizations that is holding the meeting 18:48:08 q? 18:48:14 q+ 18:48:17 q- 18:48:28 ack next 18:49:17 larry: I wonder about XRI and persistence as another constituency 18:49:28 noah: change action back to open with new due dates 18:49:35 danc: wants this to be W3C workshop and not TAG 18:50:14 danc: stop discussion for now 18:50:25 ht: let's talk about this offline (to DanC) 18:50:56 larry: I'm not interested enough to do more as TAG 18:51:36 topic: authoritative metadata 18:52:17 JK not here, moving on 18:52:30 topic: Item 7 18:52:46 HST has updated http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/351 18:52:59 topic: TAG Contributions to W3C Web Site 18:53:14 Ian sent a note asking if TAG want to contribute to new W3C Web Site content: 18:53:19 "Another of the 7 areas is "Web Architecture" [3]. We've not yet had 18:53:19 the opportunity to flesh out the 18:53:19 introduction pages that are linked from there. Right now, the titles 18:53:19 of those intros (drawn from Webarch, 18:53:19 " 18:53:27 Architecture Principles 18:53:27 Identifiers 18:53:27 Protocols 18:53:27 Meta Formats 18:53:28 Protocol and Meta Format Considerations 18:53:30 Internationalization (already done by Richard Ishida) 18:53:55 noah: notes that structure reflects the WebArch document 18:54:25 noah: we talked about this at an early meeeting but didn't find the resoures to do it 18:54:56 I also said I thought not just any resource will do. We need people who can write for some particular audience(s), write it well, etc. 18:55:05 LM: Who does work? 18:55:07 DC: We do. 18:55:31 http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ 18:55:42 noah: this is where people come to talk about the web. Would the TAG like to help the W3C tells the story 18:57:17 noah: if we could allocate the person-months of writing skill etc. 18:57:49 noah: seeing these things done well is person-weeks or person-months 18:57:56 q+ 18:59:17 masinter: another approach is to start with what they have and improve it 18:59:40 "This intro text is boilerplate for the beta release of w3.org." -- http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/protocols 19:00:30 larry: I'm willing to help, but more on the order of hours rather than weeks 19:00:56 q+ to also offer work but not ownership 19:01:02 q- 19:01:14 noah: whatever they do, we'll review it? 19:01:38 danc: let individuals volunteer 19:02:16 (may I record actions on larry and jonathan?) 19:02:40 ACTION jar to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ 19:02:40 Created ACTION-381 - Spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ [on Jonathan Rees - due 2010-02-04]. 19:02:48 raman: this should allow comments and saying we will do it is needed 19:02:58 q? 19:03:00 action-381 due 2010-02-11 19:03:00 ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ due date now 2010-02-11 19:03:42 ACTION-381? 19:03:42 ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN 19:03:42 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381 19:03:49 Looks good to me. 19:04:57 (I concur, larry, that findings don't communicate stuff well... though I have advocated using the blog genre; I'm not opposed to using the buckets as well or instead.) 19:05:36 larry: i'm wondering whether we should focus on the web site vs. working on findings and web arch and findings. 19:05:47 noah: the charter says how we are supposed to publish results 19:05:49 q? 19:05:52 Even if this means updating TAG charter 19:05:53 q- 19:05:58 ack next 19:06:12 -DKA 19:06:16 +DKA 19:06:26 action: larry to review Web Arch web material and make proposals for changes or TAG action 19:06:26 Created ACTION-382 - Review Web Arch web material and make proposals for changes or TAG action [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-02-04]. 19:06:46 topic: resource vs. representation 19:07:59 Discussion from last week: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/01/21-minutes#item04 19:08:06 action-378? 19:08:06 ACTION-378 -- Dan Connolly to draft suggested text re resource/representation in HTML 5 for discussion with LMM and JAR -- due 2010-02-03 -- OPEN 19:08:06 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/378 19:08:22 larry: htmlwg was going to close the issue, but i asked that it stay open to allow the tag to volunteer to produce a change proposal 19:08:23 LM: HTML WG is keeping issue open until tomorrow, 29 January. Does anyone on the TAG want to draft proposed text for them? 19:09:01 lm: they don't need us to produce the proposal, just for someone to commit to produce it 19:09:17 DC: I made some progress? Between me and Noah we didn't get it on the agenda for today. I could work on it, but promising dates is hard. 19:09:26 NM: Implicitly, not for tomorrow? 19:09:34 LM: By tomorrow, we just need a committed date. 19:10:27 DC: Maybe we can pick a date. 19:10:35 i suggest March 31 19:10:38 LM: How about March 31, after our next F2F? 19:10:45 DC: Wonder if they'll accept that. 19:11:01 LM: Well, the concern expressed was that Roy couldn't even start for 4 months. 19:13:27 -1 definitoins 19:13:40 noah: proposed action, the TAG will by march 31, deliver definitions plus precise text 19:13:59 s/precise text/sample text showing use of those terms in a couple of example sections/ 19:14:13 danc: this is an editorial exercise, and his opinion is that isn't a good way to go 19:14:14 DC: My opinion, now, is that definitions is not a good way to go. 19:15:13 I suggest we make a commitment to produce, by March 31, a change proposal that meets the stated HTML-WG requirements for change proposals, to address the resource vs. representation issue 19:15:37 I can go with that proposal, as it's silent on definitions 19:15:40 DKA has joined #tagmem 19:16:51 RESOLUTION: the TAG will commit to produce, by March 31, a change proposal that meets the stated HTML-WG requirements for change proposals, to address the resource vs. representation issue 19:17:04 +1 19:17:15 action-378? 19:17:15 ACTION-378 -- Dan Connolly to draft suggested text re resource/representation in HTML 5 for discussion with LMM and JAR -- due 2010-02-03 -- OPEN 19:17:15 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/378 19:17:31 action-372? 19:17:31 ACTION-372 -- Larry Masinter to tell the HTML WG the TAG encourages the direction Roy's headed on resource/representation and endorse his request for more time. -- due 2010-01-20 -- CLOSED 19:17:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/372 19:18:16 NM: Does ACTION-378 cover it for now? 19:18:19 DC: Yes 19:19:25 topic: "Speaks for" formalism 19:19:33 DC: Did the examples I sent work for you, Larry? 19:19:33 -Ht 19:19:54 "Larry and everybody, Do the examples in this make sense? " -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0105.html 19:20:24 See: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html 19:20:31 DC: Don't know is OK. 19:20:34 action: larry to review DanC's email 19:20:34 Created ACTION-383 - Review DanC's email [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-02-04]. 19:20:37 LM: I'll take an action for next week to review. 19:20:50 q? 19:21:00 DC: Hmm, action is pending review. 19:21:02 -DKA 19:22:51 action-368? 19:22:51 ACTION-368 -- Dan Connolly to write up version change ontology as blog item http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Sep/0136 -- due 2010-03-01 -- OPEN 19:22:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/368 19:23:21 ^ an action related to language versioning terminology 19:25:24 close ACTION-371 (edit) 19:25:34 close ACTION-375 19:25:34 ACTION-375 Schedule discussion of TAG contributions to W3C Web Site (self-assigned, TRIVIAL) closed 19:25:36 close ACTION-371 19:25:36 ACTION-371 Schedule TAG discussion of DAP WG query on policy (self-assigned) closed 19:26:01 ACTION-163 due 1 Mar 19:26:01 ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog due date now 1 Mar 19:26:41 . close ACTION-231 19:26:58 ACTION-232? 19:26:58 ACTION-232 -- Henry S. Thompson to follow-up to Hausenblas once there's a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg -- due 2010-02-03 -- OPEN 19:26:58 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/232 19:27:14 close ACTION-231 19:27:14 ACTION-231 Draft replacement for \"how to use conneg\" stuff in HTTP spec closed 19:28:06 action-232 due 29 Jan 19:28:06 ACTION-232 Follow-up to Hausenblas once there's a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg due date now 29 Jan 19:28:10 action-232? 19:28:11 ACTION-232 -- Larry Masinter to follow-up to Hausenblas once there's a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg -- due 2010-01-29 -- OPEN 19:28:11 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/232 19:28:37 adam barth updated mime sniff last week 19:28:41 i haven't reviewed 19:28:54 topic: action-308 19:28:57 action-308 19:29:01 action-308? 19:29:01 ACTION-308 -- John Kemp to propose updates to Authoritative Metadata and Self-Describing Web to acknowledge the reality of sniffing -- due 2010-01-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW 19:29:01 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/308 19:29:29 topic: action-326 19:29:32 action-326? 19:29:32 ACTION-326 -- Henry S. Thompson to track HTML WG progress on their bug 8154 on polyglot documents -- due 2010-01-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW 19:29:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/326 19:31:07 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:31:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-tagmem-minutes.html DanC 19:31:23 -Raman 19:31:24 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 19:31:48 Zakim, list attendees 19:31:48 As of this point the attendees have been Raman, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, noah, DanC, DanC.a, +44.163.567.aaaa, Ht, DKA, Amy 19:31:59 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 19:32:04 -noah 19:32:05 -Jonathan_Rees 19:32:07 -Masinter 19:32:26 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:32:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-tagmem-minutes.html DanC 19:32:44 -DanC.a 19:32:45 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 19:32:47 Attendees were Raman, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, noah, DanC, DanC.a, +44.163.567.aaaa, Ht, DKA, Amy 19:33:07 s/Amy, we're considering a TAG-related workshop in June// 19:33:13 s/maybe you could dial in, Amy?// 19:33:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:33:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-tagmem-minutes.html DanC 19:35:09 i/close ACTION-371 (edit)/Topic: Review of Pending Actions/ 19:35:13 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:35:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-tagmem-minutes.html DanC 20:35:08 masinter` has joined #tagmem 21:39:15 Zakim has left #tagmem