IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:01:51 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:01:51 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-html-a11y-irc
16:01:53 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:53 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-a11y
16:01:55 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
16:01:55 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:01:56 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:01:56 [trackbot]: Date: 21 January 2010
16:02:51 [kliehm]: kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:03:39 [oedipus]: regrets: Laura_Carlson,Kelly_Ford,Bruce_Lawson,Gez_Lemon,Aurélien_Levy,Sylvia_Phieffer
16:04:11 [paulc]: paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:04:26 [MichaelC]: present: Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Steven_Faulkner, Wendy_Chisholm, Jon_Gunderson, Ben_Caldwell, Erik_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Paul_Cotton
16:04:59 [MichaelC]: present+ Marco_Ranon
16:05:44 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
16:05:44 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:05:52 [kliehm]: that me
16:06:10 [MichaelC]: present+ Martin_Kliehm
16:06:18 [MichaelC]: present+ Mike_Smith
16:06:56 [Joshue]: Joshue has joined #html-a11y
16:07:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:07:45 [janina]: janina has joined #html-a11y
16:07:46 [oedipus]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0231.html
16:07:53 [janina]: zakim, code?
16:07:53 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), janina
16:08:49 [MichaelC]: present+ Charles_McCathieNevile
16:08:57 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, who's making noise?
16:08:57 [Zakim]: sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
16:09:26 [MichaelC]: present+ Janina_Sajka
16:10:06 [Joshue]: zakim, ??P6 is Joshue
16:10:06 [Zakim]: +Joshue; got it
16:10:12 [MichaelC]: zakim, mute Chaals
16:10:12 [Zakim]: Chaals should now be muted
16:11:08 [MikeSmith]: agenda+ Actions Review <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:11:13 [Joshue]: zakim, mute me
16:11:13 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
16:11:18 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #html-a11y
16:11:19 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/
16:11:33 [MikeSmith]: Topic: Review open action items
16:11:36 [MikeSmith]: action-6?
16:11:36 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to address fragments versus entire pages as alternatives with HTML WG members -- due 2010-01-21 -- OPEN
16:11:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/6
16:11:42 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/overdue
16:12:05 [MikeSmith]: action-6 due 01-28
16:12:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 address fragments versus entire pages as alternatives with HTML WG members due date now 01-28
16:12:23 [MikeSmith]: action-7?
16:12:23 [trackbot]: ACTION-7 -- Gregory Rosmaita to propose braille media type (as opposed to simply tactile) or sub-type after consulting with Braille-in-DAISY and others -- due 2010-01-15 -- OPEN
16:12:23 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/7
16:12:31 [gfreed]: gfreed has joined #html-a11y
16:13:06 [Zakim]: +??P8
16:13:58 [MichaelC]: zakim, ??P8 is probably Geoff_Freed
16:13:58 [Zakim]: +Geoff_Freed?; got it
16:14:06 [MichaelC]: present+ Geoff_Freed
16:14:43 [gfreed]: yes, it is.
16:14:48 [oedipus]: scribe: oedipus
16:14:51 [Laura]: Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:14:54 [Zakim]: + +1.617.300.aaff - is perhaps WGBH?
16:14:55 [MikeSmith]: action-7: this action has been completed and next steps include taking a proposal to CSS WG
16:14:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-7 propose braille media type (as opposed to simply tactile) or sub-type after consulting with Braille-in-DAISY and others notes added
16:15:02 [MikeSmith]: close action-7
16:15:03 [trackbot]: ACTION-7 propose braille media type (as opposed to simply tactile) or sub-type after consulting with Braille-in-DAISY and others closed
16:15:06 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
16:15:15 [mhakkinen]: i called in ... might be pp8
16:15:16 [gfreed]: yes, 300 is gfreed at wgbh.
16:15:39 [oedipus]: ACTION: GJR - work with Canvas sub-group on tactile and braille media types/groups proposal for CSS WG
16:15:39 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-14 - - work with Canvas sub-group on tactile and braille media types/groups proposal for CSS WG [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-01-28].
16:15:56 [MichaelC]: Geoff_Freed is Markku_Hakkinen
16:16:02 [MichaelC]: zaki, Geoff_Freed is Markku_Hakkinen
16:16:08 [MichaelC]: zakim, Geoff_Freed is Markku_Hakkinen
16:16:08 [Zakim]: +Markku_Hakkinen; got it
16:16:13 [MikeSmith]: action-14 due 2010-02-14
16:16:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-14 - work with Canvas sub-group on tactile and braille media types/groups proposal for CSS WG due date now 2010-02-14
16:16:18 [MichaelC]: zakim, WGBH is Geoff_Freed
16:16:18 [Zakim]: +Geoff_Freed; got it
16:16:24 [MichaelC]: present+ Markku_Hakkinen
16:16:28 [oedipus]: MS: closed ACTION-7, created ACTION-14 on GJR
16:16:45 [oedipus]: MS: ACTION-9 - Coooper and i discussed; tracker may not have been updated
16:16:45 [MikeSmith]: action-9?
16:16:45 [trackbot]: ACTION-9 -- Michael Cooper to make a proposal for which bugs we should take on, for review at next meeting -- due 2010-01-21 -- OPEN
16:16:45 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/9
16:17:35 [oedipus]: MC: sent email linked to action before call; identify 10 categories to focus on; other matters need attention, but TF probably not best place for them
16:17:39 [oedipus]: MS: ok
16:17:53 [MikeSmith]: action-9: MichaelC sent e-mail summary on 01-21
16:17:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-9 Make a proposal for which bugs we should take on, for review at next meeting notes added
16:17:58 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
16:17:59 [oedipus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0245.html
16:18:14 [oedipus]: MS: close Action-9
16:18:37 [MikeSmith]: close action-9
16:18:37 [trackbot]: ACTION-9 Make a proposal for which bugs we should take on, for review at next meeting closed
16:18:45 [oedipus]: MS: need to keep that summary list for later reference
16:18:54 [oedipus]: MS: Action 10 on GJR
16:18:55 [MikeSmith]: action-10?
16:18:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-10 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with Wendy on user-side of what AT needs in order to communicate meaningful info to AT user -- due 2010-01-21 -- OPEN
16:18:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/10
16:19:08 [Zakim]: -??P25
16:19:08 [fo]: fo has joined #html-a11y
16:19:56 [oedipus]: GJR: tied to wendy action -- talked to her, but couldn't make connection
16:20:05 [oedipus]: MS: title on Action 11 not clear
16:20:09 [oedipus]: zakim, who is here?
16:20:09 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, +0207388aabb, ??P22, +1.514.312.aacc, +1.408.307.aadd, ??P28, Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, ??P35, [Microsoft], kliehm, Mike, Chaals (muted), Joshue
16:20:12 [Zakim]: ... (muted), Janina_Sajka, Markku_Hakkinen, Geoff_Freed, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft.a]
16:20:15 [Zakim]: On IRC I see fo, Laura, gfreed, mhakkinen, janina, Joshue, paulc, kliehm, Zakim, RRSAgent, wendy, Stevef, eric_carlson, JF, Marco_Ranon, Ben, jongunderson, MichaelC, dboudreau,
16:20:16 [oedipus]: wendy?
16:20:17 [Zakim]: ... davidb, MikeSmith, oedipus, trackbot
16:21:42 [oedipus]: JS need timeline; extend action 11 for 1 week -- reassigned to wendy per discussion at 2010-01-21 HTML A11y TF
16:22:08 [oedipus]: MS: action 11 open - please communicate by email or at next call
16:22:10 [MikeSmith]: action-11 due 2010-01-11
16:22:10 [trackbot]: ACTION-11 - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF due date now 2010-01-11
16:22:21 [MikeSmith]: close action-10
16:22:21 [trackbot]: ACTION-10 Work with Wendy on user-side of what AT needs in order to communicate meaningful info to AT user closed
16:22:24 [oedipus]: MS: close action 10?
16:22:27 [oedipus]: GJR: yes
16:22:54 [oedipus]: MS: Action 12 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/12 - not due until next week
16:23:22 [oedipus]: MS: Ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for <canvas>, to ensure that a magnifier may follow the visual focus. This would be driven by the shadow DOM
16:23:29 [MikeSmith]: action-12?
16:23:30 [trackbot]: ACTION-12 -- Steve Faulkner to ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for <canvas>, to ensure that a magnifier may follow the visual focus. This would be driven by the shadow DOM. -- due 2010-01-25 -- OPEN
16:23:30 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/12
16:23:59 [oedipus]: SF: been in lots of discussion on this topic over past few days; get formal understanding of it and report back to TF
16:24:12 [oedipus]: MS: ok, keep open - not due today anyway
16:24:22 [MikeSmith]: action-12: Steve continues to work on this
16:24:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-12 Ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for <canvas>, to ensure that a magnifier may follow the visual focus. This would be driven by the shadow DOM. notes added
16:24:25 [wendy]: wendy has joined #html-a11y
16:24:29 [MikeSmith]: action-13?
16:24:29 [trackbot]: ACTION-13 -- Cynthia Shelly to create a change proposal for table summary -- due 2010-01-21 -- OPEN
16:24:29 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/13
16:24:30 [oedipus]: MS: action 13 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/13
16:24:39 [oedipus]: CS: just sent to list few minutes ago
16:24:53 [oedipus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0249.html
16:25:19 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18%2C_2009
16:25:58 [oedipus]: MS: we can say that this reflects consensus of Task Force?
16:26:01 [oedipus]: CS: i believe so
16:26:16 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:26:38 [oedipus]: JS: not having read latest yet, don't want to say, but expect need a bit of discussion perhaps today or next week; need to focus on finalizing and transmission to HTML WG
16:26:43 [oedipus]: CS: but action done
16:26:51 [oedipus]: CS: please add as agenda item next week
16:27:02 [oedipus]: PC: why not do call for consensus via email on proposal
16:27:11 [oedipus]: JS: not bad idea - problem with email is counting noses
16:27:22 [MikeSmith]: action-13: message from Cynthia - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0249.html
16:27:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-13 create a change proposal for table summary notes added
16:27:35 [oedipus]: JS: suggest for chairs meeting, use web survey mechanism for polling - gives reliable account qickly
16:27:56 [oedipus]: PC: thought TF already worked on this and need to ensure reflects decisions; asking for last check, don't need survey
16:28:29 [oedipus]: CS: is not unanimity on proposal - may be easiest to determine majority/minority with a survey
16:28:42 [oedipus]: PC: if put of discussion for a week, will be 2 weeks before gets to HTML WG
16:28:56 [oedipus]: MS: call for consensus via email one expeditious means of dealing with this
16:29:08 [MikeSmith]: close action-13
16:29:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-13 create a change proposal for table summary closed
16:29:12 [oedipus]: MS: for now, will close action 13
16:29:25 [oedipus]: CS: discuss next week?
16:29:27 [oedipus]: JS: expect so
16:29:54 [oedipus]: PC: action on janina at WG level due next week
16:29:58 [oedipus]: PC: status of that work?
16:30:01 [oedipus]: JS: in process
16:30:08 [oedipus]: JS: not forgotten or languishing
16:30:34 [oedipus]: TOPIC: reports from TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...)
16:30:38 [MikeSmith]: Paul asked about HTML WG action 170
16:30:55 [oedipus]: s/action on janina/HTML WG action 170
16:31:14 [MikeSmith]: Topic: reports from TF subgroups
16:31:15 [oedipus]: JF: steve and i had conversation this week; need to kick something into gear;
16:31:32 [oedipus]: JF: series of basic questions to consider; first step: get questions out for general discussion
16:32:04 [oedipus]: JF: situation right now; proof-of-concepts for providing captions - which directions do we want to focus on - many possibilities emerging
16:32:11 [oedipus]: JF: timing, timestamp formate, etc.
16:32:21 [oedipus]: JF: need to articulate questions and get open to public
16:32:31 [oedipus]: JF: aware of urgency
16:32:42 [oedipus]: MS: others help?
16:32:49 [oedipus]: GJR: make wiki page with questoins on TF wiki?
16:33:39 [oedipus]: JF: can't think of anything offhand - need to review past work and past resources; whole bunch of work done in mozilla; javascript to provide captions been demonstrated
16:33:51 [oedipus]: JF: will take responsibility to get before the public
16:34:24 [oedipus]: SF: what is current status: still need additional code in HTML5 to provide, or about evangelizing and using external methods
16:34:58 [Laura]: Dave started a Multimedia Q&A Wiki Page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
16:35:02 [oedipus]: JF: fundamental question; seen 2 very distinct solutions proferred; there are existing solutions do we want to explore each or get down and dirty, require captioning and detail requirements and methods
16:35:06 [Joshue]: There seems to be even no consensus about a lot of stuff with <canvas> such as what a shadow DOM is.
16:35:27 [oedipus]: JF: do it for reason Y and here are methods; don't know answer off top of head
16:36:05 [oedipus]: MS: need to check in again and make an assessment of how much has been done, current state of art; maybe need additional people in multimedia sub-group
16:36:19 [oedipus]: JF: by next week's call will have list of questions - post to maililng list first
16:36:37 [oedipus]: SF: can give quick update on CANVAS
16:36:46 [oedipus]: SF: low attendance at meetings
16:37:21 [oedipus]: SF: changes as far as providing focus - drawing focus rectangle on CANVAS and also interactivity with elements in CANVAS sub-DOM
16:37:36 [oedipus]: SF: looks promising from my perspective
16:37:46 [oedipus]: SF: outreach being made to developers
16:38:09 [oedipus]: SF: media queries for providing alternative content for CANVAS - more problematic; not agreed to within sub-group
16:38:22 [oedipus]: SF: RichS running discussions down; working on proposal
16:38:38 [oedipus]: MS: seems like deliverable for CANVAS discussion is the spec, right?
16:38:40 [oedipus]: SF: right
16:38:46 [oedipus]: MS: any editors writing that spec?
16:38:54 [oedipus]: SF: RichS writing portion of text for spec
16:40:02 [oedipus]: SF: concept of CANVAS fallback is no longer suitable concept for what is in canvas sub-DOM; appears that providing interattion with elements in sub-DOM may be mainstream way for devs to have directives / controls that only appear on canvas, but user can still interact with elements in sub-DOM itself, so saying "this is fallback" is no longer correct
16:40:10 [oedipus]: JS: why a subgroup - a lot to consider
16:41:05 [MikeSmith]: q
16:41:09 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:41:23 [MikeSmith]: ack Chaals
16:43:38 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
16:45:18 [Joshue]: Thanks to Chaals for explaining the murky world of the shadow DOM!
16:46:39 [MikeSmith]: wendy: regarding "ACTION-11 - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF" do you have a timeline to report today?
16:47:21 [MichaelC]: zakim, mute chaals
16:47:21 [Zakim]: Chaals should now be muted
16:47:57 [Stevef]: canvas image map example: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/canvas-pie/pie.html
16:48:29 [MikeSmith]: action-11 due 2010-02-04
16:48:29 [trackbot]: ACTION-11 - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF due date now 2010-02-04
16:49:52 [MikeSmith]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201001_ftf/
16:51:57 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith: TF members who have not responded to that survey should please do so
16:52:15 [Marco_Ranon]: i will after speaking to my line manager tomorow
16:53:16 [wendy]: is it possible to co-locate it with www or csun?
16:56:18 [MikeSmith]: Topic: Review of "a11y" bugs
16:56:18 [MikeSmith]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0245.html
16:56:28 [paulc]: Leaving to go to HTML WG meeting.
16:58:13 [kliehm]: Just contacted Julian Viereck (http://twitter.com/jviereck), one of the lead developers of Bespin, and invited him to the TF Canvas Subgroup. When is the weekly telcon?
16:59:51 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:00:35 [Stevef]: kliehm: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/0044.html
17:01:39 [Joshue]: Joshue has left #html-a11y
17:01:49 [Zakim]: -??P0
17:01:50 [Zakim]: -??P22
17:01:50 [Zakim]: -??P35
17:01:52 [Zakim]: -Geoff_Freed
17:01:52 [Zakim]: -Cooper
17:01:53 [Zakim]: -kliehm
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -Markku_Hakkinen
17:01:56 [Zakim]: - +1.650.862.aaaa
17:01:56 [Zakim]: - +1.408.307.aadd
17:01:57 [MikeSmith]: we'll be back next week, with Janina chairing
17:01:58 [Zakim]: - +1.514.312.aacc
17:02:00 [Zakim]: - +0207388aabb
17:02:04 [dboudreau]: take care all
17:02:07 [eric_carlson]: eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
17:02:07 [Zakim]: -Chaals
17:02:08 [Zakim]: -??P28
17:02:09 [gfreed]: gfreed has left #html-a11y
17:02:21 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
17:02:51 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03:05 [Zakim]: -Janina_Sajka
17:03:07 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:03:30 [Zakim]: -Mike
17:03:43 [janina]: janina has left #html-a11y
17:03:54 [Zakim]: -Joshue
17:03:56 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:04:02 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, +0207388aabb, +1.514.312.aacc, +1.408.307.aadd, Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, [Microsoft], +49.693.650.5.aaee, Mike, Chaals, Janina_Sajka, Joshue,
17:04:06 [Zakim]: ... kliehm, Geoff_Freed?, +1.617.300.aaff, Cynthia_Shelly, Markku_Hakkinen, Geoff_Freed
17:29:26 [kliehm]: kliehm has joined #html-a11y
17:30:27 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has left #html-a11y
18:46:40 [Stevef]: Stevef has joined #html-a11y
19:11:09 [Ben]: Ben has left #html-a11y
19:40:31 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y