16:59:15 RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF 16:59:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc 16:59:17 RRSAgent, make logs world 16:59:17 Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF 16:59:19 Zakim, this will be 7322733 16:59:19 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 16:59:20 Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference 16:59:20 Date: 19 January 2010 16:59:29 Chair: Michael 16:59:35 Ahmed has joined #RDB2RDF 17:00:39 soeren has joined #RDB2RDF 17:00:43 Zakim, this is 7322733 17:00:43 ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM 17:00:51 li_ma has joined #rdb2rdf 17:00:56 + +1.781.273.aacc 17:01:05 +??P26 17:01:05 Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software 17:01:06 +OpenLink_Software; got it 17:01:11 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:01:11 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 17:01:12 +MacTed; got it 17:01:15 Zakim, mute me 17:01:15 MacTed should now be muted 17:01:24 +[IPcaller] 17:01:29 nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF 17:01:29 Zakim, who's here? 17:01:29 On the phone I see ??P16, +043316876aaaa, +39.046.188.aabb, Souri, MacTed (muted), ??P26, Ashok_Malhotra, [IPcaller] 17:01:31 On IRC I see nunolopes, li_ma, soeren, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, angela_UNITN, Ashok, whalb, juansequeda, Souri, Marcelo, mdean, hhalpin, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, 17:01:35 ... ericP 17:01:49 + +3539149aadd 17:01:49 zakim, [IPcaller] is soeren 17:01:54 mhausenblas - Orri will not be able to scribe 17:02:06 +soeren; got it 17:02:16 + +1.603.897.aaee 17:02:28 scribenick: hhalpin 17:02:34 Zakim, aaee is hhalpin 17:02:40 Zakim, who is here? 17:02:42 +??P13 17:02:42 cgi-irc has joined #RDB2RDF 17:02:45 cygri has joined #rdb2rdf 17:02:51 Zakim, ??P13 is hhalpin 17:02:53 i'll be dialing in a bit late 17:02:58 +hhalpin; got it 17:03:02 On the phone I see ??P16, +043316876aaaa, +39.046.188.aabb, Souri, MacTed (muted), ??P26, Ashok_Malhotra, soeren, +3539149aadd, hhalpin, ??P13 17:03:11 +hhalpin; got it 17:03:21 scribe: hhalpin 17:03:21 aaaa is whalb 17:03:25 On IRC I see cygri, cgi-irc, nunolopes, li_ma, soeren, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, angela_UNITN, Ashok, whalb, juansequeda, Souri, Marcelo, mdean, hhalpin, MacTed, mhausenblas, 17:03:28 ScribeNick: hhalpin 17:03:30 ... iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP 17:03:30 Zakim, aaaa is whalb 17:03:42 +whalb; got it 17:03:51 cygri is with mhausenblas 17:03:57 nunolopes is mhausenblas 17:04:50 + +1.512.484.aaff 17:05:06 Zakim, aaff is juansequeda 17:05:08 +juansequeda; got it 17:05:23 Ted Thibodeau @ OpenLink 17:05:34 cgi-irc has joined #RDB2RDF 17:05:42 +EricP 17:05:46 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jan/0030.html 17:05:47 -EricP 17:05:52 +EricP 17:06:26 http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html 17:06:31 cgi-irc has joined #RDB2RDF 17:06:40 PROPOSAL: Accept http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html as the true and correct minutes? 17:06:48 +1 17:07:04 +1 17:07:17 ACCEPTED: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html accepted as correct minutes 17:07:30 topic: Linked Data aspects of R2ML 17:07:33 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects 17:07:43 I am trying to connect to the conference call, but it is not working ... let me try again ... 17:07:51 mhausenblas: have people tried to look at this? 17:07:59 ... this conforms us to our charter 17:08:11 ... my interpretation of what the charter means that we need to fulfill these principles 17:09:13 ... we need to make sure we deal with Linked Data principles 17:09:20 ... and solve it via best practices 17:09:49 Ahmed: We need to define the scope of provenance so we don't go to far 17:10:18 Seema has joined #RDB2RDF 17:10:24 mhausenblas: I phrased it a bit stronger 17:10:32 ... so that we MUST conform to Linked Data principles 17:10:46 q+ "Use URLs for tuples with a primary/unique key' 17:10:53 q+ to propose "Use URLs for tuples with a primary/unique key' 17:10:57 ack 17:10:59 ack me 17:10:59 ericP, you wanted to propose "Use URLs for tuples with a primary/unique key' 17:11:19 ericP: We can't use URIs if there's no unique key 17:11:26 + +44.131.467.aagg 17:11:45 q+ "schema-level entities must have a URI" do you mean tables/columns? 17:12:00 Soeren: Sometimes we don't define unique keys but there are unique keys in principle 17:12:00 I finally manage to connect :-) 17:12:07 Zakim, aagg is Marcelo 17:12:07 +Marcelo; got it 17:12:11 ericP: SQL-aware or not, not just SQL 17:12:14 ack cygri 17:13:09 cygri: Regarding your first principle, what do you mean with schema-level entities having URIs or not? 17:13:19 mhausenblas: I mean the classes 17:13:37 cygri: but if the schema is somewhere else, then we will just re-use URIs of existing vocabularies 17:13:56 ericP: going up a meta-level 17:14:05 ... is linked data principles critical for use-cases 17:14:38 ... linked data principles means there should be a HTTP URI, ideally served. 17:14:43 ... nice practice but not critical 17:14:50 ... but this won't effect the use-cases 17:15:01 ... so shouldn't we just use *names* that are consistent with linked data principles 17:15:17 ... but not indicate that people MUST make thoese dereferencable 17:16:11 mhausenblas: As long as you can do the mapping that if you want to implement the URIs, this is possible. 17:16:36 ... we must be able to configure it so that we CAN put a http URI there and a domain we can control. 17:16:49 ... but we can't enforce that particular configuration. 17:16:54 ericP: that makes sense to me 17:17:05 ... system must be able to support names compatible with linked data 17:17:16 s/mhausenblas: As long/cygri: As long 17:17:51 Ahmed: There are lots of deployments that are enterprises 17:17:53 +??P5 17:18:12 ??P5 is Orri 17:18:48 Zakim, ??P5 is Orri 17:18:48 +Orri; got it 17:19:24 ... so we should not make them pay that overhead 17:19:31 cygri: We need to take care of 3 scenarios 17:19:42 ... RDF dump, SPARQL queries, and Linked Data 17:20:20 ... we should do all 3 17:20:48 ericP: the language should allow conformance to linked data. 17:21:20 ACTION: ericP to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." 17:21:20 Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP 17:21:43 ACTION: eric to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." 17:21:43 Created ACTION-20 - Update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-01-26]. 17:21:56 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities 17:23:57 rcygri: Another case that works quite easily 17:24:37 ... is that I could put a URI into that column by using some arbitrary algorithm 17:24:59 ... but do we want to specify another more algorithm 17:25:10 soeren: we could identify a URI using a web service or RPC call 17:25:56 cygri: I could see that as a 3rd case, so that the function is out of scope of language, with arbitrary invocations of this functions. 17:26:39 +1 3rd choice 17:26:57 cygri: I'd like to see these 3 cases covered. 17:27:57 c! 17:28:13 soeren: in one case we could just specify namespace prefix 17:28:20 ... and the other we could do else. 17:28:53 ... I can volunteer to draft this up 17:29:14 ACTION: soeren to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) 17:29:14 Sorry, couldn't find user - soeren 17:29:26 ACTION: sauer to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) 17:29:26 Created ACTION-21 - Update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) [on Sören Auer - due 2010-01-26]. 17:30:02 angela: any kind of URIs should be allowed 17:30:18 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance 17:30:57 mhausenblas: we have some notes on provenance 17:31:07 ... we can liason with the provenance XG 17:31:51 Ahmed: There are many situations where you want to track who did one 17:31:54 ... who did what 17:32:00 ... such as who changed the data from 93 to 100 17:32:05 ... very interesting area 17:32:10 ... very good work 17:32:30 Ashok: Why is it relevant to our work? 17:32:50 Ahmed: I said it is very important, and we should at least chat about it. 17:32:58 ... to see if we can look into how this. 17:33:05 but another group is 17:33:14 chartered to look into it, so we just need to set up a group meeting 17:33:36 cygri: when I think about provenance in RDB2RDF 17:33:45 ... I can imagine two levels 17:33:56 ... 1) THis RDF came from this database applying these mapping rules 17:34:11 2) Sometimes you have provenance info in database 17:34:31 cygri: in some application specific format 17:35:04 ... which we might want to translate to a specific vocaublary 17:35:22 mhausenblas: Once we go rec track 17:35:28 ... this will be one the question 17:35:42 ... no 17:36:01 ... and we punt to XG 17:36:12 ... or we directly see how it would be useful 17:36:13 http://sig.ma/ 17:36:29 ... thinking that we could show how this mash-up from diff sources 17:36:37 ... but we only trust sources from some kind of govt/etc. 17:36:47 ... in that case 17:36:58 ... we should allow R2ML allow us to provide this kind of info 17:37:22 soeren: would like to use linked data 17:37:29 ... for relational data already solves some provenance 17:37:38 ... so we can at least dereference URIs and this helps alot 17:37:54 ... and just enabling people to use some provenance vocabulary 17:38:03 ... and attached institutional data to this problem. 17:38:31 q+ 17:38:39 q+ 17:38:39 Ahmed: Henderson just came up with some work 17:39:03 ... but you want to know where we got this data 17:39:09 ack hhalpin 17:39:09 ... especially in caching situations 17:39:44 Zakim, who's making noise? 17:40:00 mhausenblas, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Orri (8%) 17:40:14 ?: there is also work done at Stanford 17:40:29 ... but no standard way to specify provenance 17:41:21 Zakim, queue? 17:41:21 I see cygri on the speaker queue 17:41:58 ack cygri 17:42:18 Note that there are multiple kinds of provenance 17:42:30 in Edinburgh, we are mostly interested in looking at the changes in databases 17:42:35 the "why" provenance 17:42:46 and also the "where" provenance when data comes from different graphs. 17:42:57 Irini Fundalaki has ported some of this work, using the idea of colouring, to RDF. 17:43:07 cygri: we could attach metadata to the named graph as well 17:43:38 q+ to show off a logged update doodle 17:43:41 ... talking about the case where we map into the log 17:43:46 ... or a set of named graphs 17:43:56 multiple graphs 17:44:02 ... map to a single graph or a set of named graphs 17:44:06 Ahmed: I think both 17:44:24 http://www.beliefproject.org/events/brainstormings/brainstorming5/ppt/irini-fundulaki-OnExplicitProvenanceManagement-Final.pdf 17:44:26 Irini's work 17:44:49 cygri: data model is a set of graphs, not a single graph 17:44:58 ... which do we use? 17:45:02 souri: we would need to 17:45:13 ... relational data needs to get to multiple graphs 17:45:29 ... so we would want to say this view goes to one particular graph, i.e. assoicate a graph name with that 17:45:58 orri: we have to use own graph 17:46:11 ... so we can all of this graph 17:46:29 Zakim, queue? 17:46:29 I see ericP on the speaker queue 17:47:00 there is a mapping between to an RDF graph 17:47:17 ... so in the view paradigm, we can then get different graphs, even from an ETL 17:47:31 so v1 and v2 may go to graph G1, then v3 and v4 may go to graph G2, and so on ... 17:47:31 ... in some cases, we can control how this mapping is applied 17:47:47 ... so we want only some for subgraph. 17:47:54 ... this is also what we do 17:47:59 ... when we map on demand wihtout ETL 17:48:08 ... we project graph out of some arbitrary column from the table 17:48:16 ... graph is some column, say owner of blog post 17:48:27 a :DbUpdate, mysql:logUpdate ; :updater [ :username "ericP" ] ; :rowsAffected ( , ) ; :properties ( :salary, :office ) . 17:48:30 ack ericP 17:48:30 ericP, you wanted to show off a logged update doodle 17:48:40 ericP: I want to show off an alternative to named graph 17:49:05 soeren: is this related to triplify's 17:49:09 ... update approach 17:49:37 see also http://triplify.org/vocabulary/update 17:49:55 soeren: we have discussed this 17:50:12 ... but we were hoping to discuss this after we get the mappingg 17:50:21 ... the data is sufficient for lots of prov. use cases 17:50:34 ... after a few people implement it we can look back into this 17:50:47 mhausenblas: anyone want to update the wiki here? 17:51:02 rcygri: map to one graph or set of named graph based on views 17:51:18 ... or do we map statemwnts to graph dynamically 17:51:28 ... ala orri's approach 17:51:42 Ahmed: this should be part of the two teams task 17:52:06 orri: in the view approach, it's straightforward 17:52:34 mhausenblas: what about this decision regardless of imlementation 17:52:59 cygri: mapping a database into diff. named graphs 17:53:08 ... then we solve some of the provenance problem 17:53:23 ... as we can attach information to each named graph 17:53:48 Ahmed: don't see mapping language 17:54:00 ... would like to see it on higher level 17:54:34 rcygri: see my previous 2 cases 17:54:44 ... what i want 17:54:50 s/rcygri/cygri 17:55:02 ... is to represent both 17:55:09 +q 17:55:12 ... as the latter can happen in mapping language 17:55:24 Ahmed: there is this term data lineage 17:55:33 ... we handle this with handling schema a certain way 17:55:45 q+ SemTech 17:55:52 q- SemTech 17:55:53 q+ 17:56:07 ... can not too much in existing schema to do go for rdf mapping 17:56:22 ... big projects already inside databases, dont want to get lost 17:57:39 ACTION: ericP to add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki 17:57:39 Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP 17:58:00 ACTION: eric to add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki 17:58:00 Created ACTION-22 - Add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-01-26]. 17:58:11 Zakim, queue? 17:58:11 I see Souri, hhalpin on the speaker queue 17:58:34 ack hhalpin 17:58:41 Semtech face-to-face? 17:58:47 +1 17:58:51 mhausenblas: we'll keep looking 17:58:57 -??P26 17:59:10 +1 to semtech (recognizing that the real decision is in doodle) 17:59:10 Souri: My only curiousity is that we are already 17:59:14 ... talking about this 17:59:19 Bye 17:59:19 Yolanda Gil is the chair 17:59:19 not me 17:59:28 s/Juan/Souri 17:59:30 harry that was not me 17:59:38 ACTION: juansequeda to contact XG provenance 17:59:38 s/Souri/Juan 17:59:45 Zakim, queue? 17:59:45 I see Souri on the speaker queue 17:59:50 -Orri 18:00:30 ACTION: cygri to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion 18:00:30 Sorry, couldn't find user - cygri 18:01:07 Souri: database capturing provenance 18:01:14 ... that should be covered by mapping 18:01:19 ... but am not sure 18:01:25 ... if we want to do something special 18:01:36 cygri: we might want to map certain columsn to graph names 18:01:41 ... that is what I think we should o. 18:01:50 Souri: If we define a view 18:01:55 ... to be a single poriton 18:02:00 ... then we create a smaller view 18:02:04 ... with only some slice 18:02:15 cygri: but what about 10,000 users, 10,000 views 18:02:36 ACTION: rcygania2 to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion 18:02:36 Created ACTION-23 - Update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2010-01-26]. 18:03:25 Topic: AOB 18:04:11 Meeting adjourned. 18:04:13 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:04:15 -Souri 18:04:16 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:04:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-minutes.html hhalpin 18:04:16 - +3539149aadd 18:04:16 -soeren 18:04:17 -juansequeda 18:04:17 -hhalpin 18:04:18 -whalb 18:04:19 -Marcelo 18:04:21 -MacTed 18:04:22 - +39.046.188.aabb 18:04:23 trackbot, end meeting 18:04:23 Zakim, list attendees 18:04:24 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:04:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-minutes.html trackbot 18:04:24 -??P16 18:04:25 RRSAgent, bye 18:04:25 I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-actions.rdf : 18:04:25 ACTION: ericP to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." [1] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-21-20 18:04:25 ACTION: eric to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." [2] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-21-43 18:04:25 ACTION: soeren to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) [3] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-29-14 18:04:25 ACTION: sauer to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) [4] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-29-26 18:04:25 ACTION: ericP to add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki [5] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-57-39 18:04:25 ACTION: eric to add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki [6] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-58-00 18:04:25 ACTION: juansequeda to contact XG provenance [7] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-59-38 18:04:25 ACTION: cygri to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion [8] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T18-00-30 18:04:25 ACTION: rcygania2 to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion [9] 18:04:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-irc#T18-02-36 18:04:26 As of this point the attendees have been +043316876aaaa, +39.046.188.aabb, Souri, +1.781.273.aacc, Ashok_Malhotra, MacTed, +3539149aadd, soeren, +1.603.897.aaee, hhalpin, whalb, 18:04:29 ... +1.512.484.aaff, juansequeda, EricP, +44.131.467.aagg, Marcelo, Orri 18:04:34 ok