17:56:53 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:56:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-tagmem-irc 17:57:20 noah has joined #tagmem 17:57:59 plh has joined #tagmem 17:58:48 masinter has joined #tagmem 17:58:53 Henry: do you in fact have progress on 357 for today? 17:58:55 DKA has joined #tagmem 17:59:10 Ashok has joined #tagmem 18:00:13 zakim, who is here? 18:00:14 On the phone I see no one 18:00:15 On IRC I see Ashok, DKA, masinter, plh, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, Liam, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot 18:00:25 Hmm, that might be a sign of trouble. 18:00:38 html-wg had zakim problems 18:01:13 caribou has joined #tagmem 18:01:40 zakim, what conference is this? 18:01:40 this is TAG_Weekly()1:00PM conference code 0824 18:01:44 zakim, who is here? 18:01:44 On the phone I see no one 18:01:45 On IRC I see caribou, Ashok, DKA, masinter, plh, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, Liam, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot 18:02:04 HTML_WG noted Zakim troubles too 18:03:18 Ashok is on the phone, as are Dan A, Larry, Jonathan, and Noah 18:03:28 Tim is on the phone 18:05:27 amylunch has joined #tagmem 18:06:07 Zakim, who is on the phone? 18:06:07 On the phone I see no one 18:07:09 item: Convene 18:07:50 HST apologises for next week, will be in Hong Kong 18:09:18 noah: Election results are out http://www.w3.org/News/2010#entry-8694 18:09:53 noah: Reappointments: Ashok, Jonathan, Noah 18:10:00 HST thanks Noah for continuing to be willing to chair 18:10:11 Welcome DKA! 18:10:19 My pleasure 18:10:25 item: Approvie minutes of 7 January 2010 18:10:26 amy has left #tagmem 18:10:29 s/vie/ve/ 18:10:43 Thanks! great to be here. 18:10:57 Henry, do you have progress on 357 18:11:05 RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 7 January 2010 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/01/07-tagmem-minutes 18:11:29 item: Name qualification mechanisms for HTML 5 (xmlnames) 18:12:10 Henry, I would like you to take the lead on 357. Can't hear you. 18:12:39 I will hang up and redial 18:12:47 I sent email which hasn't made the ACTION!!! 18:12:54 First, wait for a pointer 18:13:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/dpd.html 18:13:23 This is expanded from the original QA post 18:13:35 Are you dialing? 18:15:16 The original QA post, which this revises, is at: http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/11/default_prefix_declaration.html 18:15:20 ht: Added motivation, listed some problems 18:15:46 ht: Please see section 3 re possible goals 18:15:50 (I can challenge by the way "Of these, the first is arguably the more significant, because the number of authors exceeds the number of developers by a large margin. " because many authors don't see the tags, and those that do a proportion hack the javascript. But not all aithros see tags and not all people who use js are site developers.) 18:16:52 ht: Narrowest possible goal is to inject namespaces only into the HTML serialization of HTML5 18:16:59 I'm intrigued that there isn't a goal 3: to bridge to goal #1 by supporting this new convention in the "XML" (as enhanced) as well the HTML serialization of HTML specifically. 18:17:25 ht: I don't think there will be interest in changing XML, so look at HTML5 18:18:09 ht: Narrow option would not apply to 'polyglot' (HTML/namespaced-XML) documents 18:18:42 ht: Also new in this draft: new bullets to the 'why prefixes' section 18:19:35 ht: The HTML serialization already specifies many prefixed attributes, e.g. xlink:href 18:19:47 ht: Prefix decl is allowed but not required 18:20:11 ht: There are also additions to section 7 questions and problems 18:21:05 ht: Documents that depend on some out-of-band prefix declaration are not, by virtue of that, ill-formed XML 18:21:42 ... described mechanism would yield well-formed but not namespace-well-formed docs 18:22:40 ... HTML5 lists the transition points between HTML and SVG (or MATHML). controlled by 'foreign' flag 18:24:11 Error recovery is sensitive to whether you're in a foreign context 18:25:12 Some SVG element names get camel-cased, while mostly names are uppercased 18:25:20 s/Some/ht: Some/ 18:25:30 s/Error/ht: Error/ 18:26:06 HT: For the examples in 7.5, add rel="prefix" to each link. 18:26:21 ht: Bug in example - all the links should have rel="prefix" 18:26:33 q? 18:27:05 q+ ht_home 18:27:16 q- ht_home 18:27:54 q+ 18:28:06 ack Ashok 18:28:43 q+ to ask about the XML serialization of HTML in particular 18:29:00 ashok: Why not be more ambitious - look at XML as well? 18:29:35 ht: If the HTML WG agreed to anything like this, it would happen relatively quickly. XML does not work on the same time frame. 18:30:36 ht: There's nothing in an XML document that says what version of the namespace spec it's conformant to 18:31:00 ack noah 18:31:00 noah, you wanted to ask about the XML serialization of HTML in particular 18:31:43 noah: I was state more strongly that the XML *community* (not just WG) would hesitate 18:32:25 noah: Need to explain how do you take a document in one serialization and serialize it in the other 18:33:25 ... or, maybe you can't do dpd in the XML serialization, but [scribe missed] 18:34:21 noah: Accept unbound prefixes? 18:34:32 ack liam 18:34:32 Liam, you wanted to note that lack-of-static-scoping is status quo for XML today, and potentially status-quo for html5 today, whether good or bad, and that xml community seemed OK 18:34:36 ... with some changes when I went around asking 18:35:55 liam: status quo is that you copy document fragments around, and the meaning might change 18:36:10 s/status quo/status quo for HTML5/ 18:36:58 liam: Have been talking to people in XML communities, there's some support for changes provided we don't change the meaning of existing documents 18:37:01 q? 18:37:04 cat: meow 18:37:12 q+ cat 18:37:12 I personally think that XML implementors are worried about more than changing the meaning of existing documents -- when some parsers start accepting new content, there's an expectaion that everyone's will. 18:38:12 noah: We've laid out 2-3 proposals, maybe we can look at pros & cons? 18:38:20 q+ 18:38:30 q? 18:38:39 q- 18:38:47 ack next 18:38:54 ack next 18:38:54 ack next 18:39:36 plh: What about the one from Microsoft? Why didn't you mention it? 18:39:48 noah: Unintentional 18:39:53 q+ 18:39:54 q? 18:39:55 q+ to mention DanC's request wrt the requirements matrix 18:40:01 ack next 18:40:30 ms proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/att-1216/MicrosoftDistributedExtensibilitySubmission.htm 18:41:26 ht: The MS proposal is like XML with a few things struck out 18:41:36 s/XML/XML namespaces/ 18:41:59 q? 18:42:04 ack next 18:42:05 ht_home, you wanted to mention DanC's request wrt the requirements matrix 18:42:41 q+ to talk about microdata, rdfa, head/@profile, and other extensibility mechanisms in HTML 18:42:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/Whiteboard.jpg 18:42:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0055.html 18:43:10 ht: In email announcing the new draft, Dan asked for the requirements matrix from the F2F to go into the DPD document 18:43:23 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/Whiteboard.jpg 18:43:45 HT: Nuts, I used the wrong action number, which is why tracker didn't pick it up 18:44:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jan/0043.html 18:44:42 ht: Columns are [namespace mechanisms], rows are [constituencies] 18:45:10 jar: check = meets that constituency's requirements, X = doesn't 18:46:36 ht: Problem with prefixes is that they're obtrusive, you have to keep typing them, even if the name is "in the language" 18:47:12 noah: Under DPD, all the SVG elements would have prefixes? 18:47:13 The "mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies" is being used to justify publishing microdata 18:47:13 NM: Do you have any defaulting at all Henry? 18:47:17 q+ 18:47:34 ht: yes, and that's a good thing 18:47:38 HT: No. In an HTML document, all SVG-namespace elements will likely have prefixes 18:47:39 ack next 18:47:40 masinter, you wanted to talk about microdata, rdfa, head/@profile, and other extensibility mechanisms in HTML 18:48:31 masinter: I argued that microdata was out of scope of the WG's charter 18:49:00 I'm not clear, Larry, on how what you're saying relates to the question on the table. 18:49:15 Ah, starting to get it. 18:49:17 q- 18:49:23 ... taking a broader look: How many extensibility mechanisms does a language need? 18:49:24 s/ht:yes, and it's a good thing/xxxx/ 18:50:01 ... I'd like to have that discussion 18:50:26 ... can we schedule that? 18:50:51 ... See www-archive link pasted in above. 18:51:20 action, noah to schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jan/0043.html 18:51:33 action: noah to schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jan/0043.html 18:51:33 Created ACTION-374 - Schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jan/0043.html [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-01-21]. 18:52:17 caribou: we need consistency between XML documentsand XML fragments in HTML documents 18:52:18 Yes, but XML does allow setting a default prefix, and it seems that DPD eliminates that capability, no? 18:52:21 q? 18:52:21 q+ to wonder if "it's not nice to type / look at them" is the only objection to namespaces...? 18:52:27 ack next 18:52:28 DKA, you wanted to wonder if "it's not nice to type / look at them" is the only objection to namespaces...? 18:53:28 q? 18:53:31 dka: Aren't there objections to namespacing that go beyond use of prefixes? 18:54:06 Perhaps this is what Carine is saying, but prefixing is not just syntactically clumsy, it's a level of abstraction that causes complexity and breakage (e.g. in copy/paste scenarios) 18:54:08 The sticky namespace proposal is something like and all children of "element" would be considered in the prefix namespace by default 18:54:41 ht: Some say the surface syntax is barbaric; other objection is from developers who say it makes dealing with the DOM is a pain in the neck 18:55:07 q? 18:55:20 sticky namespace is just likely to introduce more breakage in copy/pasting fragments 18:55:25 ... DOM-oriented developers want to just deal with local names. Anything that causes ambiguity is unacceptable 18:55:57 ... but there are many more page authors than developers 18:56:22 q+ 18:56:29 ack next 18:56:30 Liam, you wanted to enumerate (1) javascript api probs, (2) syntax, (3) "nothing there"-ness 18:56:31 ... Any namespacing proposal will meet objections. 18:56:36 ...... changes namespace in htlm5 18:56:46 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#foreign-elements 18:57:25 q+ 18:58:22 ack next 18:58:32 liam: (sorry, scribe failed to summarize) 18:58:52 FWIW, languages like Java work both ways. It's certainly common to use import, which does bring new localnames into scope, but you can also reference (the analog of) expanded, fully-qualified names directly. 18:59:23 timbl: The HTML5 spec looks at design from the DOM point of view 18:59:50 ack next 19:00:05 ... you're making a finer distinction, the people writing tags out, and those writing javascript 19:00:43 zakim, close the queue 19:00:43 ok, noah, the speaker queue is closed 19:01:02 liam: In what namespace do attributes go? This is hard to understand 19:01:18 s/liam/philippe/ 19:01:19 s/liam/plh/ 19:02:20 zakim, open the queue 19:02:20 ok, noah, the speaker queue is open 19:02:26 action-357? 19:02:26 ACTION-357 -- Henry S. Thompson to elaborate the DPD proposal to address comments from #xmlnames and tag f2f discussion of 2009-12-10, particularly wrt integration with XML specs and wrt motivation -- due 2010-01-13 -- OPEN 19:02:26 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/357 19:02:29 noah: Not clear that the TAG will be taking this up again - no actions other than Henry's 19:02:56 I think we should talk about this in the broad context of extensibility mechanisms in HTML, including RDFa, which addresses namespaces too 19:03:08 q? 19:03:22 ... Not closing 357. HT will put the matrix in the document 19:04:49 q? 19:04:52 masinter: Maybe namespaces are disliked because other extensibility mechanisms are being proposed [to replace it]. 19:05:24 liam: What to communicate to the HTML WG? 19:06:18 extensibility in the html or in xml included in the html might not have the same impacts 19:07:01 ht: Is there an HTML WG issue open in this space? 19:07:19 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41 19:07:39 plh: Yes, issue 41, still open 19:07:46 PLH: Still open, but no discussion happening. Chairs will likely bring it up and ask for concrete proposals within a month after raising it. 19:07:58 PLH: Likely to close without prejudice after that. 19:10:40 schedule ATION-351 in two weeks 19:10:46 s/ATION/ACTION/ 19:10:51 item: Binary XML 19:11:31 no objection 19:11:36 Liam has left #tagmem 19:11:43 close ISSUE-30 19:11:43 ISSUE-30 Standardize a "binary XML" format? closed 19:11:50 s/Likely to close without prejudice after that/will close without prejudice after that unless there is a proposal on the table/ 19:11:50 caribou has left #tagmem 19:11:55 restarting bot in 2 minutes to recover bridge state; no impact on current callers expected 19:12:03 plh has left #tagmem 19:12:20 item: Research 303 caching change in HTTPbis 19:12:38 scribenick: noah 19:13:00 JAR: I had made an assertion that HTTPbis has fixed this. That was called into question at the F2F. I took an action to research it, and I still think it's true. 19:13:25 JAR: The question is, are 303 responses cachable? Answer seems to be identical to that for 302, I.e. yes if suitable headers are used. 19:13:40 JAR: In short, I propose the TAG need not worry about this because HTTPbis has it under control. 19:14:35 JAR: We should consider changes to ISSUE-57. Tempted to remove from issue description: how much history to retain. 19:15:11 HST is happy with the HTTPbis text at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-08#section-8.3.4 19:15:24 NM: Suggest we keep history. Need an action to do it? 19:15:27 close ACTION-347 19:15:27 ACTION-347 Research 303 caching change in HTTPbis closed 19:15:32 JAR: Nah, small enough, trust me. 19:15:41 [HST leaves the call] 19:15:42 scribenick: jar 19:16:00 Item: Propose updates to Authoritative Metadata and Self-Describing Web to acknowledge the reality of sniffing 19:17:15 # John Kemp email proposing updates to Authoritative Metadata: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0128.html 19:17:36 johnk: I read through meeting minutes to find out what we decided. Seems sniffing does happen, and there's an IETF draft for how to do it safely. Consensus I think was that if you have to sniff, do it this way. 19:17:43 John Kemp email proposing updates to Self-Describing Web. See also responses from Larry (objecting to sniffing being promoted to architectural principle): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0007.html 19:18:04 Noah response with counterpropsoal on SDW: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0025.html 19:18:13 ... Looked for minimal edits to SDW to recognize this 19:18:24 Larry email saying "it shouldn't be arch principle": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0018.html 19:18:39 Noah agrees: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0019.html 19:18:42 Zakim has joined #tagmem 19:18:51 zakim, who is here? 19:18:51 sorry, noah, I don't know what conference this is 19:18:52 On IRC I see Ashok, DKA, masinter, noah, RRSAgent, jar, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot 19:20:10 masinter: Not sure I like the advice "if you're going to do it do it this way", prefer "is only OK in certain special contexts" 19:20:29 Ralph has joined #tagmem 19:20:40 Ralph has left #tagmem 19:20:44 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 19:20:44 +noah; got it 19:21:00 who hoo! Thank you Ralph! (Someone should make you the boss around here) 19:21:06 thinks the exceptions to authoritative metadata each need to be fully justified in terms of actual experience in deployment; the "sniffing" draft contains several recommendations that are unjustified 19:21:22 like sniffing Postscript and PDF... 19:21:35 johnk: I understood consensus as AM still stands 19:22:06 not sure Barth is "least bad" 19:22:18 fair enough 19:22:38 noah: Let's look at AM 19:24:00 That is why [HTTPbis] states: 19:24:00 "If the Content-Type header field is not present, it indicates that the sender does not know the media type of the data; recipients MAY either assume that it is "application/octet-stream" or examine the content to determine its type." 19:24:00 SInce the examination of content to determine its type has a certain security risk (see [REF]) it is important that Web agents follow a common and secure algorithm such as [BarthSniff] for determining the content type. 19:25:17 no content-type asserted anyway, sure. But [BarthSniff] hasn't been approved, i owe some review 19:25:17 johnk: The first edit (1.) is just to account for change to HTTPbis 19:26:11 At the risk of opening up a can of worms, has the TAG considered the Mobile Web Best Practices working group's "Guidelines for Web Content Transformation Proxies" and its implications for content sniffing? : http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/ 19:27:11 masinter: three important cases: HTTP without a content-type, file:, and ftp: (the latter 2 also don't have content-type header) 19:27:50 Time check: 3 mins to go 19:27:54 johnk: AM says you should HTTP so that you don't have to infer the content-type 19:28:03 s/HTTP/use HTTP/ 19:28:14 DKA, would you mind sending an email to www-tag with pointer and brief summary? 19:28:48 masinter: I shouldn't have to run an HTTP server in order to say something about the metadata 19:29:02 my first action! 19:29:36 :) 19:29:59 masinter: What we say in general ought to be what bears in this particular case 19:30:08 noah: Worried about scope expansion 19:30:19 masinter: Why? 19:31:02 noah: The finding pretty much is what it is. Let's just tune what we have 19:31:29 q? 19:31:34 scope expansion seems like the right way of looking at difficulties 19:32:31 think about ftp: and file: and file extensions, and which areas should metadata be authoritative. E.g., links with their own content-type which differs from HTTP's content-type header. 19:32:32 noah: Encourages everyone to reread AM with an eye to what Larry is saying (generalize to include file: ) 19:33:06 ADJOURNED 19:33:08 -Masinter 19:33:09 -Ashok_Malhotra 19:33:11 -John_Kemp 19:33:12 rrsagent, pointer 19:33:12 See http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-tagmem-irc#T19-33-12 19:33:14 -TimBL 19:33:15 - +0771785aaaa 19:33:17 rrsagent, make logs public 19:33:17 -noah 19:33:25 - +1.781.643.aabb 19:33:26 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 19:33:28 Attendees were +0771785aaaa, +1.781.643.aabb, Masinter, Ashok_Malhotra, John_Kemp, TimBL, noah 21:59:29 timbl has joined #tagmem 22:03:27 Zakim has left #tagmem 22:46:36 timbl has joined #tagmem