IRC log of tagmem on 2010-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:56:53 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:57:20 [noah]
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17:58:48 [masinter]
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17:58:53 [noah]
Henry: do you in fact have progress on 357 for today?
17:58:55 [DKA]
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17:59:10 [Ashok]
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18:00:13 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:00:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
18:00:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, DKA, masinter, plh, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, Liam, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot
18:00:25 [noah]
Hmm, that might be a sign of trouble.
18:00:38 [masinter]
html-wg had zakim problems
18:01:13 [caribou]
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18:01:40 [noah]
zakim, what conference is this?
18:01:40 [Zakim]
this is TAG_Weekly()1:00PM conference code 0824
18:01:44 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
18:01:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see caribou, Ashok, DKA, masinter, plh, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, Liam, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot
18:02:04 [masinter]
HTML_WG noted Zakim troubles too
18:03:18 [jar]
Ashok is on the phone, as are Dan A, Larry, Jonathan, and Noah
18:03:28 [jar]
Tim is on the phone
18:05:27 [amylunch]
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18:06:07 [timbl]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:06:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
18:07:09 [jar]
item: Convene
18:07:50 [ht_home]
HST apologises for next week, will be in Hong Kong
18:09:18 [jar]
noah: Election results are out
18:09:53 [jar]
noah: Reappointments: Ashok, Jonathan, Noah
18:10:00 [ht_home]
HST thanks Noah for continuing to be willing to chair
18:10:11 [timbl]
Welcome DKA!
18:10:19 [noah]
My pleasure
18:10:25 [jar]
item: Approvie minutes of 7 January 2010
18:10:26 [amy]
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18:10:29 [jar]
18:10:43 [DKA]
Thanks! great to be here.
18:10:57 [noah]
Henry, do you have progress on 357
18:11:05 [jar]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 7 January 2010
18:11:29 [jar]
item: Name qualification mechanisms for HTML 5 (xmlnames)
18:12:10 [noah]
Henry, I would like you to take the lead on 357. Can't hear you.
18:12:39 [ht_home]
I will hang up and redial
18:12:47 [ht_home]
I sent email which hasn't made the ACTION!!!
18:12:54 [ht_home]
First, wait for a pointer
18:13:13 [ht_home]
18:13:23 [ht_home]
This is expanded from the original QA post
18:13:35 [noah]
Are you dialing?
18:15:16 [noah]
The original QA post, which this revises, is at:
18:15:20 [jar]
ht: Added motivation, listed some problems
18:15:46 [jar]
ht: Please see section 3 re possible goals
18:15:50 [timbl]
(I can challenge by the way "Of these, the first is arguably the more significant, because the number of authors exceeds the number of developers by a large margin. " because many authors don't see the tags, and those that do a proportion hack the javascript. But not all aithros see tags and not all people who use js are site developers.)
18:16:52 [jar]
ht: Narrowest possible goal is to inject namespaces only into the HTML serialization of HTML5
18:16:59 [noah]
I'm intrigued that there isn't a goal 3: to bridge to goal #1 by supporting this new convention in the "XML" (as enhanced) as well the HTML serialization of HTML specifically.
18:17:25 [jar]
ht: I don't think there will be interest in changing XML, so look at HTML5
18:18:09 [jar]
ht: Narrow option would not apply to 'polyglot' (HTML/namespaced-XML) documents
18:18:42 [jar]
ht: Also new in this draft: new bullets to the 'why prefixes' section
18:19:35 [jar]
ht: The HTML serialization already specifies many prefixed attributes, e.g. xlink:href
18:19:47 [jar]
ht: Prefix decl is allowed but not required
18:20:11 [jar]
ht: There are also additions to section 7 questions and problems
18:21:05 [jar]
ht: Documents that depend on some out-of-band prefix declaration are not, by virtue of that, ill-formed XML
18:21:42 [jar]
... described mechanism would yield well-formed but not namespace-well-formed docs
18:22:40 [jar]
... HTML5 lists the transition points between HTML and SVG (or MATHML). controlled by 'foreign' flag
18:24:11 [jar]
Error recovery is sensitive to whether you're in a foreign context
18:25:12 [jar]
Some SVG element names get camel-cased, while mostly names are uppercased
18:25:20 [jar]
s/Some/ht: Some/
18:25:30 [jar]
s/Error/ht: Error/
18:26:06 [noah]
HT: For the examples in 7.5, add rel="prefix" to each link.
18:26:21 [jar]
ht: Bug in example - all the links should have rel="prefix"
18:26:33 [noah]
18:27:05 [ht_home]
q+ ht_home
18:27:16 [ht_home]
q- ht_home
18:27:54 [Ashok]
18:28:06 [ht_home]
ack Ashok
18:28:43 [noah]
q+ to ask about the XML serialization of HTML in particular
18:29:00 [jar]
ashok: Why not be more ambitious - look at XML as well?
18:29:35 [jar]
ht: If the HTML WG agreed to anything like this, it would happen relatively quickly. XML does not work on the same time frame.
18:30:36 [jar]
ht: There's nothing in an XML document that says what version of the namespace spec it's conformant to
18:31:00 [ht_home]
ack noah
18:31:00 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask about the XML serialization of HTML in particular
18:31:43 [jar]
noah: I was state more strongly that the XML *community* (not just WG) would hesitate
18:32:25 [jar]
noah: Need to explain how do you take a document in one serialization and serialize it in the other
18:33:25 [jar]
... or, maybe you can't do dpd in the XML serialization, but [scribe missed]
18:34:21 [jar]
noah: Accept unbound prefixes?
18:34:32 [ht_home]
ack liam
18:34:32 [Zakim]
Liam, you wanted to note that lack-of-static-scoping is status quo for XML today, and potentially status-quo for html5 today, whether good or bad, and that xml community seemed OK
18:34:36 [Zakim]
... with some changes when I went around asking
18:35:55 [jar]
liam: status quo is that you copy document fragments around, and the meaning might change
18:36:10 [ht_home]
s/status quo/status quo for HTML5/
18:36:58 [jar]
liam: Have been talking to people in XML communities, there's some support for changes provided we don't change the meaning of existing documents
18:37:01 [ht_home]
18:37:04 [jar]
cat: meow
18:37:12 [timbl]
q+ cat
18:37:12 [noah]
I personally think that XML implementors are worried about more than changing the meaning of existing documents -- when some parsers start accepting new content, there's an expectaion that everyone's will.
18:38:12 [jar]
noah: We've laid out 2-3 proposals, maybe we can look at pros & cons?
18:38:20 [plh]
18:38:30 [noah]
18:38:39 [timbl]
18:38:47 [noah]
ack next
18:38:54 [noah]
ack next
18:38:54 [ht_home]
ack next
18:39:36 [jar]
plh: What about the one from Microsoft? Why didn't you mention it?
18:39:48 [jar]
noah: Unintentional
18:39:53 [caribou]
18:39:54 [noah]
18:39:55 [ht_home]
q+ to mention DanC's request wrt the requirements matrix
18:40:01 [noah]
ack next
18:40:30 [Liam]
ms proposal
18:41:26 [jar]
ht: The MS proposal is like XML with a few things struck out
18:41:36 [jar]
s/XML/XML namespaces/
18:41:59 [noah]
18:42:04 [noah]
ack next
18:42:05 [Zakim]
ht_home, you wanted to mention DanC's request wrt the requirements matrix
18:42:41 [masinter]
q+ to talk about microdata, rdfa, head/@profile, and other extensibility mechanisms in HTML
18:42:55 [noah]
18:42:59 [ht_home]
18:43:10 [jar]
ht: In email announcing the new draft, Dan asked for the requirements matrix from the F2F to go into the DPD document
18:43:23 [ht_home]
18:43:45 [noah]
HT: Nuts, I used the wrong action number, which is why tracker didn't pick it up
18:44:07 [masinter]
18:44:42 [jar]
ht: Columns are [namespace mechanisms], rows are [constituencies]
18:45:10 [jar]
jar: check = meets that constituency's requirements, X = doesn't
18:46:36 [jar]
ht: Problem with prefixes is that they're obtrusive, you have to keep typing them, even if the name is "in the language"
18:47:12 [jar]
noah: Under DPD, all the SVG elements would have prefixes?
18:47:13 [masinter]
The "mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies" is being used to justify publishing microdata
18:47:13 [noah]
NM: Do you have any defaulting at all Henry?
18:47:17 [caribou]
18:47:34 [jar]
ht: yes, and that's a good thing
18:47:38 [noah]
HT: No. In an HTML document, all SVG-namespace elements will likely have prefixes
18:47:39 [noah]
ack next
18:47:40 [Zakim]
masinter, you wanted to talk about microdata, rdfa, head/@profile, and other extensibility mechanisms in HTML
18:48:31 [jar]
masinter: I argued that microdata was out of scope of the WG's charter
18:49:00 [noah]
I'm not clear, Larry, on how what you're saying relates to the question on the table.
18:49:15 [noah]
Ah, starting to get it.
18:49:17 [caribou]
18:49:23 [jar]
... taking a broader look: How many extensibility mechanisms does a language need?
18:49:24 [ht_home]
s/ht:yes, and it's a good thing/xxxx/
18:50:01 [jar]
... I'd like to have that discussion
18:50:26 [jar]
... can we schedule that?
18:50:51 [jar]
... See www-archive link pasted in above.
18:51:20 [masinter]
action, noah to schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this)
18:51:33 [masinter]
action: noah to schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this)
18:51:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-374 - Schedule discussion of broader extensibility mechanisms question (including this) [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-01-21].
18:52:17 [jar]
caribou: we need consistency between XML documentsand XML fragments in HTML documents
18:52:18 [noah]
Yes, but XML does allow setting a default prefix, and it seems that DPD eliminates that capability, no?
18:52:21 [noah]
18:52:21 [DKA]
q+ to wonder if "it's not nice to type / look at them" is the only objection to namespaces...?
18:52:27 [noah]
ack next
18:52:28 [Zakim]
DKA, you wanted to wonder if "it's not nice to type / look at them" is the only objection to namespaces...?
18:53:28 [noah]
18:53:31 [jar]
dka: Aren't there objections to namespacing that go beyond use of prefixes?
18:54:06 [noah]
Perhaps this is what Carine is saying, but prefixing is not just syntactically clumsy, it's a level of abstraction that causes complexity and breakage (e.g. in copy/paste scenarios)
18:54:08 [caribou]
The sticky namespace proposal is something like <prefix::element> and all children of "element" would be considered in the prefix namespace by default
18:54:41 [jar]
ht: Some say the surface syntax is barbaric; other objection is from developers who say it makes dealing with the DOM is a pain in the neck
18:55:07 [noah]
18:55:20 [caribou]
sticky namespace is just likely to introduce more breakage in copy/pasting fragments
18:55:25 [jar]
... DOM-oriented developers want to just deal with local names. Anything that causes ambiguity is unacceptable
18:55:57 [jar]
... but there are many more page authors than developers
18:56:22 [timbl]
18:56:29 [noah]
ack next
18:56:30 [Zakim]
Liam, you wanted to enumerate (1) javascript api probs, (2) syntax, (3) "nothing there"-ness
18:56:31 [jar]
... Any namespacing proposal will meet objections.
18:56:36 [Liam]
<html>...<svg>... changes namespace in htlm5
18:56:46 [caribou]
18:57:25 [plh]
18:58:22 [noah]
ack next
18:58:32 [jar]
liam: (sorry, scribe failed to summarize)
18:58:52 [noah]
FWIW, languages like Java work both ways. It's certainly common to use import, which does bring new localnames into scope, but you can also reference (the analog of) expanded, fully-qualified names directly.
18:59:23 [jar]
timbl: The HTML5 spec looks at design from the DOM point of view
18:59:50 [noah]
ack next
19:00:05 [jar]
... you're making a finer distinction, the people writing tags out, and those writing javascript
19:00:43 [noah]
zakim, close the queue
19:00:43 [Zakim]
ok, noah, the speaker queue is closed
19:01:02 [jar]
liam: In what namespace do attributes go? This is hard to understand
19:01:18 [jar]
19:01:19 [Liam]
19:02:20 [noah]
zakim, open the queue
19:02:20 [Zakim]
ok, noah, the speaker queue is open
19:02:26 [masinter]
19:02:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-357 -- Henry S. Thompson to elaborate the DPD proposal to address comments from #xmlnames and tag f2f discussion of 2009-12-10, particularly wrt integration with XML specs and wrt motivation -- due 2010-01-13 -- OPEN
19:02:26 [trackbot]
19:02:29 [jar]
noah: Not clear that the TAG will be taking this up again - no actions other than Henry's
19:02:56 [masinter]
I think we should talk about this in the broad context of extensibility mechanisms in HTML, including RDFa, which addresses namespaces too
19:03:08 [noah]
19:03:22 [jar]
... Not closing 357. HT will put the matrix in the document
19:04:49 [noah]
19:04:52 [jar]
masinter: Maybe namespaces are disliked because other extensibility mechanisms are being proposed [to replace it].
19:05:24 [jar]
liam: What to communicate to the HTML WG?
19:06:18 [caribou]
extensibility in the html or in xml included in the html might not have the same impacts
19:07:01 [jar]
ht: Is there an HTML WG issue open in this space?
19:07:19 [plh]
19:07:39 [jar]
plh: Yes, issue 41, still open
19:07:46 [noah]
PLH: Still open, but no discussion happening. Chairs will likely bring it up and ask for concrete proposals within a month after raising it.
19:07:58 [noah]
PLH: Likely to close without prejudice after that.
19:10:40 [jar]
schedule ATION-351 in two weeks
19:10:46 [jar]
19:10:51 [jar]
item: Binary XML
19:11:31 [jar]
no objection
19:11:36 [Liam]
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19:11:43 [jar]
close ISSUE-30
19:11:43 [trackbot]
ISSUE-30 Standardize a "binary XML" format? closed
19:11:50 [plh]
s/Likely to close without prejudice after that/will close without prejudice after that unless there is a proposal on the table/
19:11:50 [caribou]
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19:11:55 [Zakim]
restarting bot in 2 minutes to recover bridge state; no impact on current callers expected
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19:12:20 [jar]
item: Research 303 caching change in HTTPbis
19:12:38 [noah]
scribenick: noah
19:13:00 [noah]
JAR: I had made an assertion that HTTPbis has fixed this. That was called into question at the F2F. I took an action to research it, and I still think it's true.
19:13:25 [noah]
JAR: The question is, are 303 responses cachable? Answer seems to be identical to that for 302, I.e. yes if suitable headers are used.
19:13:40 [noah]
JAR: In short, I propose the TAG need not worry about this because HTTPbis has it under control.
19:14:35 [noah]
JAR: We should consider changes to ISSUE-57. Tempted to remove from issue description: how much history to retain.
19:15:11 [ht_home]
HST is happy with the HTTPbis text at
19:15:24 [noah]
NM: Suggest we keep history. Need an action to do it?
19:15:27 [jar]
close ACTION-347
19:15:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-347 Research 303 caching change in HTTPbis closed
19:15:32 [noah]
JAR: Nah, small enough, trust me.
19:15:41 [ht_home]
[HST leaves the call]
19:15:42 [noah]
scribenick: jar
19:16:00 [jar]
Item: Propose updates to Authoritative Metadata and Self-Describing Web to acknowledge the reality of sniffing
19:17:15 [noah]
# John Kemp email proposing updates to Authoritative Metadata:
19:17:36 [jar]
johnk: I read through meeting minutes to find out what we decided. Seems sniffing does happen, and there's an IETF draft for how to do it safely. Consensus I think was that if you have to sniff, do it this way.
19:17:43 [noah]
John Kemp email proposing updates to Self-Describing Web. See also responses from Larry (objecting to sniffing being promoted to architectural principle):
19:18:04 [noah]
Noah response with counterpropsoal on SDW:
19:18:13 [jar]
... Looked for minimal edits to SDW to recognize this
19:18:24 [noah]
Larry email saying "it shouldn't be arch principle":
19:18:39 [noah]
Noah agrees:
19:18:42 [Zakim]
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19:18:51 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
19:18:51 [Zakim]
sorry, noah, I don't know what conference this is
19:18:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, DKA, masinter, noah, RRSAgent, jar, ht, timbl, ht_home, trackbot
19:20:10 [jar]
masinter: Not sure I like the advice "if you're going to do it do it this way", prefer "is only OK in certain special contexts"
19:20:29 [Ralph]
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19:20:44 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
19:20:44 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
19:21:00 [noah]
who hoo! Thank you Ralph! (Someone should make you the boss around here)
19:21:06 [masinter]
thinks the exceptions to authoritative metadata each need to be fully justified in terms of actual experience in deployment; the "sniffing" draft contains several recommendations that are unjustified
19:21:22 [masinter]
like sniffing Postscript and PDF...
19:21:35 [jar]
johnk: I understood consensus as AM still stands
19:22:06 [masinter]
not sure Barth is "least bad"
19:22:18 [noah]
fair enough
19:22:38 [jar]
noah: Let's look at AM
19:24:00 [noah]
That is why [HTTPbis] states:
19:24:00 [noah]
"If the Content-Type header field is not present, it indicates that the sender does not know the media type of the data; recipients MAY either assume that it is "application/octet-stream" or examine the content to determine its type."
19:24:00 [noah]
SInce the examination of content to determine its type has a certain security risk (see [REF]) it is important that Web agents follow a common and secure algorithm such as [BarthSniff] for determining the content type.
19:25:17 [masinter]
no content-type asserted anyway, sure. But [BarthSniff] hasn't been approved, i owe some review
19:25:17 [jar]
johnk: The first edit (1.) is just to account for change to HTTPbis
19:26:11 [DKA]
At the risk of opening up a can of worms, has the TAG considered the Mobile Web Best Practices working group's "Guidelines for Web Content Transformation Proxies" and its implications for content sniffing? :
19:27:11 [jar]
masinter: three important cases: HTTP without a content-type, file:, and ftp: (the latter 2 also don't have content-type header)
19:27:50 [noah]
Time check: 3 mins to go
19:27:54 [jar]
johnk: AM says you should HTTP so that you don't have to infer the content-type
19:28:03 [jar]
s/HTTP/use HTTP/
19:28:14 [noah]
DKA, would you mind sending an email to www-tag with pointer and brief summary?
19:28:48 [jar]
masinter: I shouldn't have to run an HTTP server in order to say something about the metadata
19:29:02 [DKA]
my first action!
19:29:36 [timbl]
19:29:59 [jar]
masinter: What we say in general ought to be what bears in this particular case
19:30:08 [jar]
noah: Worried about scope expansion
19:30:19 [jar]
masinter: Why?
19:31:02 [jar]
noah: The finding pretty much is what it is. Let's just tune what we have
19:31:29 [noah]
19:31:34 [masinter]
scope expansion seems like the right way of looking at difficulties
19:32:31 [masinter]
think about ftp: and file: and file extensions, and which areas should metadata be authoritative. E.g., links with their own content-type which differs from HTTP's content-type header.
19:32:32 [jar]
noah: Encourages everyone to reread AM with an eye to what Larry is saying (generalize to include file: )
19:33:06 [jar]
19:33:08 [Zakim]
19:33:09 [Zakim]
19:33:11 [Zakim]
19:33:12 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
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19:33:14 [Zakim]
19:33:15 [Zakim]
- +0771785aaaa
19:33:17 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs public
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19:33:25 [Zakim]
- +1.781.643.aabb
19:33:26 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:33:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were +0771785aaaa, +1.781.643.aabb, Masinter, Ashok_Malhotra, John_Kemp, TimBL, noah
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