IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:25 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:56:25 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-irc
15:56:27 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:29 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
15:56:29 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:30 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:56:30 [trackbot]: Date: 14 January 2010
15:57:44 [Ben]: Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:57:51 [grosmai]: regrets: Jim_Allen,Laura_Carlson,Stéphane_Deschamps,Kelly_Ford,Gez_Lemon,Aurélien_Levy,Sylvia_Pfeiffer
15:58:21 [Marco_Ranon]: Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:59:33 [janina]: janina has joined #html-a11y
15:59:54 [janina]: zakim, call janina
15:59:54 [Zakim]: ok, janina; the call is being made
16:01:08 [oedipus]: regrets+ Markku_Hakkinen
16:01:25 [Zakim]: +??P18
16:01:34 [Ben]: zakim, ??P18 is Ben_Caldwell
16:01:34 [Zakim]: +Ben_Caldwell; got it
16:01:56 [janina]: Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
16:01:56 [janina]: Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:01:56 [janina]: agenda: this
16:01:56 [janina]: agenda+ Actions Review
16:01:56 [janina]: agenda+ reports from TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...)
16:01:56 [janina]: agenda+ Bugs Review
16:01:58 [janina]: agenda+ Possibility of a Face to Face?
16:02:00 [janina]: agenda+ Table Summary
16:02:02 [janina]: agenda+ next meeting, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:02:04 [janina]: agenda+ New Business
16:02:07 [janina]: agenda+ be done
16:02:15 [JF]: JF has joined #html-a11y
16:02:21 [oedipus]: agenda archived at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0192.html
16:02:34 [kliehm]: kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:02:51 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:03:17 [Zakim]: +Marco_Ranon
16:03:21 [Zakim]: +Matt
16:03:25 [Zakim]: + +1.617.300.aaaa - is perhaps WGBH?
16:03:50 [Zakim]: +??P29
16:04:03 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ??P29
16:04:08 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
16:04:23 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Caldwell
16:05:45 [Stevef]: Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:05:50 [Zakim]: +??P33
16:06:01 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
16:06:57 [MichaelC]: scribe: Stevef
16:07:36 [oedipus]: update on GJR actions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0172.html
16:07:40 [Stevef]: janina: review action items
16:08:10 [richardschwerdtfe]: richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:08:18 [mattmay]: mattmay has joined #html-a11y
16:09:30 [Stevef]: GJR: action item was to take the google spreadsheet and make it accessible, not my job
16:10:54 [Stevef]: cyns: not a large doc, but needs to stay in table format
16:11:08 [oedipus]: collaborative content should always meet a11y requirements
16:12:53 [oedipus]: problem isn't just table, but color-coding
16:13:09 [Stevef]: MC: you and steve are working on it more.
16:13:55 [oedipus]: thank y'all VERY much
16:15:11 [oedipus]: SF: need GJR's help
16:15:14 [Stevef]: MC draft in 2 weeks
16:15:26 [Stevef]: MC 28th on cyns
16:15:27 [oedipus]: GJR: will help if can get document source and gloss on color-coding
16:16:14 [Stevef]: MC:action on cyns: follow up with IE team on mapping logic
16:16:25 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
16:16:29 [Stevef]: MC last action on me, have not domne it
16:16:44 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #html-a11y
16:17:15 [oedipus]: s/thank y'all VERY much/thank y'all VERY much (not sarcastic)
16:17:23 [janina]: test
16:18:03 [mattmay]: MichaelC, you're disconnected.
16:18:52 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
16:19:06 [Stevef]: janina: discussing prospect of face2face, lost of work and a well organized face to face can do that
16:19:30 [oedipus]: i/janina: discussing prospect/TOPIC: Face2Face Planning for HTML A11y TF
16:19:46 [Stevef]: janina: will be a web survey about attendance published soon
16:20:29 [Stevef]: janina: at least 60 days +
16:21:04 [oedipus]: SF: if in states, why not aim for CSUN 2010 (22-27 March 2010)
16:21:11 [oedipus]: PC: also SXSW
16:21:29 [oedipus]: SF: if come to CSUN, won't be able to travel to U.S. for subsequent meeting
16:21:51 [oedipus]: JS: issue around CSUN is sponsorship in San Diego
16:21:58 [Stevef]: stevef: think about holding around csun,
16:22:15 [oedipus]: CS: have offices in california, too - might be host site in bay area
16:22:29 [oedipus]: JF: could help in organizing bay area
16:22:47 [Stevef]: cyns: microsoft has offices in bay area, also j foliot may be able to help in bay area
16:23:04 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper.a
16:23:07 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
16:23:46 [Stevef]: pallcotton: strongly agree need to make progress, general question, isn't scheduling a meeting in april sending a message that we won't be finsihed before april
16:24:22 [Stevef]: janina: not sure we will be finsihed by April, still bugs being filed
16:24:42 [MichaelC]: q+
16:24:51 [oedipus]: q?
16:25:21 [Stevef]: paulcotton; accessibility issues will be longpole., so need to start setting the HTML wg expectations
16:25:48 [Stevef]: janina: we can do that to an extent, but still need to process incoming bugs
16:26:26 [Stevef]: janina: 2-3 weeks away for being able to scope work to be done
16:26:41 [kliehm]: q+
16:26:52 [oedipus]: ack Mich
16:27:18 [Stevef]: paulcotton: need to communicate with html wg on progress
16:28:03 [oedipus]: regrets+ Henny_Swan
16:28:16 [Stevef]: MC: need f2f to get a lot done, some issues cannot be addressed before last call, so need to prioritise pre/post last call
16:28:48 [Stevef]: janina: schedule f2f to aim to get wide participation
16:29:02 [oedipus]: regrets+ Wendy_Chisholm
16:29:06 [oedipus]: ack klie
16:29:32 [oedipus]: mixed physical and virtual f2f?
16:29:37 [Stevef]: kleihm: if official titmframe is 60, should grab any opportunity to meet informally
16:29:57 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:30:11 [Stevef]: janina: could get a decision on meeting
16:30:34 [Stevef]: q+
16:30:55 [oedipus]: i/janina: review action items/TOPIC: Action Item Review
16:31:28 [Stevef]: MC:csun good time for meet as lost of accessibility specialists will be around, but also think about other people that want to be involved
16:31:45 [kliehm]: s/kleihm/kliehm
16:32:22 [Stevef]: janina: laura is providing weekly report on a11y bugs, but will defer going through bugs until next week
16:32:25 [oedipus]: laura's bug collection: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0066.html
16:32:38 [oedipus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0155.html
16:33:19 [Stevef]: cyns: overview of summary proposal, no change to changes proposal, all is in mail sent to list
16:33:27 [oedipus]: Cyns' summary summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0157.html
16:34:00 [oedipus]: i/cyns: overview of/TOPIC: @summary for TABLE proposal update
16:34:33 [oedipus]: maciej's reply to Cyns: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0159.html
16:35:15 [Stevef]: cyns: recommending a UI toggle for browsers to show/hide metadata, also browsers may show summary in editing scenarios, converstaions with wendy chisolm about summary, added an orientation attribute, not very easy for AT to work out form table
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16:35:54 [Stevef]: cyns: make things easier for AT, to provide info to users rather than asking authors to summarise table structure in prose
16:36:36 [Stevef]: cyns: orientation is one of those, wnedy looking at AT and what they could benefit from table markup
16:37:04 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:37:31 [Stevef]: cyns:makingh the need for summary less frequent, by giving AT info to derive structure via markup.
16:38:09 [Stevef]: cyns: describing trends and relationships that are visibly obvious, but not clear for all
16:38:31 [oedipus]: q+ to say that logistical statistics are of limited use to the AT user
16:38:42 [Stevef]: cyns: orientaion defines order and sorting, but wnedy wnats to work on this more
16:40:11 [Stevef]: cyns: some proposals on list to use aria-sort
16:40:51 [janina]: q?
16:41:12 [oedipus]: ack Steve
16:42:14 [oedipus]: SF: 1 thing that's concerned me is should we be advocating its use at this time - summary and longdesc have support in some major ATs, don't have support in a lot of other AT - telling people to put info into place that locks it away from AT users will be very problemmatic
16:42:20 [oedipus]: CS: WCAG support issue
16:42:42 [richardschwerdtfe]: I don't like longdesc
16:42:44 [oedipus]: JS: recommending UI's be able to expose hidden meta-data to anybody
16:42:59 [richardschwerdtfe]: authors almost never use it
16:43:05 [Stevef]: rich: really? i never realized :-)
16:43:54 [Stevef]: GJR: there is a limited amount of utility for users to be provided with logistical info about tables
16:44:14 [Stevef]: cyns: will you work with wnedy on this
16:44:22 [Stevef]: GJR: yes
16:44:40 [oedipus]: ACTION: GJR work with Wendy on user-side of what AT needs in order to communicate meaningful info to AT user
16:44:40 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-10 - Work with Wendy on user-side of what AT needs in order to communicate meaningful info to AT user [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-01-21].
16:44:52 [richardschwerdtfe]: two things I despise in HTML - acckess key and longdesc
16:45:26 [Stevef]: janina: how much can profitably be derived from markup
16:45:38 [oedipus]: gez's comment on auto-summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0162.html
16:45:49 [Stevef]: cyns: AT still having probs with row and colspans
16:46:21 [Stevef]: cyns: we usually let AT off the hook
16:46:23 [janina]: q?
16:46:27 [oedipus]: ack oe
16:46:27 [Zakim]: oedipus, you wanted to say that logistical statistics are of limited use to the AT user
16:46:42 [Stevef]: cyns: but AT need to step up, AT should be able to provide it
16:47:17 [Stevef]: janina: are we at consensus, should we go point by point to get an idea of consensus?
16:48:20 [Stevef]: cyns: concerned about just submitting change proposal without associated bits
16:48:27 [janina]: q?
16:48:42 [Stevef]: janina: take it as given as other stuff will be raised
16:49:04 [Stevef]: johnf: is with janina on this
16:50:23 [Stevef]: cyns: expect pushback for htmlwg hope there is not pushback from accessibility community, if its just summary could have ready in a week
16:51:52 [Stevef]: cyns: more likely to approve orientation rather than summary, not sure how to proceed
16:52:30 [Stevef]: cyns: put simple summary change prosal with heading listing other chnages
16:52:55 [oedipus]: SF: want to ask does proposal contain alternative spec-ready text>
16:53:02 [oedipus]: s/text>/text?
16:53:05 [oedipus]: CS: yes
16:53:53 [Stevef]: cyns: does our wiki arcg=hive previous version?
16:53:54 [Stevef]: GJR: yes
16:54:32 [oedipus]: FIVE MINUTE WARNING
16:54:46 [Stevef]: janina: due dates?
16:55:31 [Stevef]: janina: lets have 2 action items, chnage proposal on summary netx week and also report back on timeline for fucrther changes
16:55:44 [Stevef]: GJR: will report on timeline
16:56:07 [Stevef]: cyns:may need one off meet to diicuss
16:56:17 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:56:20 [oedipus]: ACTION: Gregory - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF
16:56:21 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-11 - - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-01-21].
16:56:29 [Zakim]: -Geoff_Freed
16:57:41 [Stevef]: mattmay: has open action in reference to image analysis, image anaysis is described as adequate alternative for human generated text alternatives, but it is not
16:57:55 [mattmay]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ChangeProposals/ImageHeuristics
16:58:14 [Stevef]: mattmay: please have a look, I plan on submitting before deadline
16:59:22 [Stevef]: janina: should be getting to alt as it is very important to accessibility
17:00:00 [Stevef]: cyns: some people mentioned it may be useful to have a survey about hidden metadata
17:00:15 [Stevef]: cyns: such as alt, summary etc
17:00:17 [oedipus]: terminology nit: it is not "hidden meta-data" we are dealing with, but "discoverable meta-data" is what i believe @summary should be
17:01:04 [Zakim]: -Paul_Cotton
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17:01:52 [Zakim]: -dsinger
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17:03:16 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper.a
17:03:17 [Stevef]: janina: wrpa it up, thanks all, see you next week
17:03:22 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:03:32 [Stevef]: GJR: will wrap (thanks gregory)
17:03:36 [Zakim]: -Matt
17:03:37 [Zakim]: -kliehm
17:03:38 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
17:03:40 [Zakim]: -Janina
17:03:41 [Zakim]: -Ben_Caldwell
17:03:41 [Zakim]: -Steve_Faulkner
17:03:42 [Zakim]: -Marco_Ranon
17:03:43 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03:43 [oedipus]: thanks steveF for scribing
17:03:45 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:03:47 [Zakim]: Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Paul_Cotton, dsinger, Marco_Ranon, Matt, +1.617.300.aaaa, Geoff_Freed, Cynthia_Shelly,
17:03:50 [Zakim]: ... Steve_Faulkner, kliehm, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:03:59 [oedipus]: zakim, please part
17:03:59 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:04:03 [janina]: janina has left #html-a11y
17:04:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:05:45 [oedipus]: michaelC and or janina - should the minutes be world or member viewable?
17:06:25 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:07:04 [Ben]: Ben has left #html-a11y
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17:08:28 [oedipus]: rrsagent, please part
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-actions.rdf :
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: GJR work with Wendy on user-side of what AT needs in order to communicate meaningful info to AT user [1]
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-irc#T16-44-40
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregory - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF [2]
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-html-a11y-irc#T16-56-20