20:02:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:02:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/11-svg-irc
20:02:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:02:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:02:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM already started
20:02:38 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:02:38 <trackbot> Date: 11 January 2010
20:02:39 <shepazu> zakim, code?
20:02:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
20:02:39 <ChrisL> trackbot, start telcon
20:02:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:02:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM already started
20:02:48 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:02:51 <trackbot> Date: 11 January 2010
20:02:55 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:03:08 <Zakim> +??P10
20:03:38 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:03:39 <jwatt> Zakim, ??P10 is me
20:03:39 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:03:53 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
20:03:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Shepazu, jwatt, ChrisL
20:03:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jwatt, ChrisL, ed, anthony, karl, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work
20:04:34 <ed> Zakim, passcode?
20:04:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ed
20:05:04 <Zakim> +??P12
20:05:16 <ed> Zakim, ??P12 is me
20:05:16 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:08:57 <patrick> patrick has joined #svg
20:09:14 <jwatt> welcome, patrick
20:09:29 <Zakim> +??P14
20:09:30 <patrick> thanks ;) a little slow today
20:09:59 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
20:09:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Shepazu, jwatt, ChrisL, ed, ??P14
20:10:00 <anthony> zakim, ??P14 is me
20:10:01 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:10:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see patrick, Zakim, RRSAgent, jwatt, ChrisL, ed, anthony, karl, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work
20:10:10 <jwatt> no worries, it takes a little time to get up to speed
20:10:18 <ChrisL> zakim, pick a victim
20:10:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anthony
20:10:39 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
20:10:45 <anthony> Chair: Eric
20:11:03 <anthony> s/Eric/Erik/
20:11:14 <anthony> Topic: Up coming F2F
20:11:15 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#F2F_Meeting_Information
20:11:34 <eseidel> eseidel has joined #svg
20:11:44 <ed> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/07-svg-minutes.html#item05
20:11:59 <anthony> DS: Adding conferences
20:12:06 <anthony> ... started but didn't finish
20:12:17 <anthony> ED: The minutes from last teclon should tell us the same thing
20:12:41 <anthony> DS: I'm adding some existing meetings we know about
20:13:28 <anthony> ... I sent out emails about SVG DOM API summit
20:13:34 <anthony> ... there was definite interest
20:14:26 <anthony> ... I spoke to Chris Wilson (MS), Brad N (Google), Jeff Schiller, Alex Rustle (Dojo)
20:14:48 <anthony> ... emailed some people privately
20:15:10 <anthony> ... I said we'd like to have it in the valley probably in April
20:16:02 <anthony> CL: Need 8 weeks notice for a work shop
20:16:11 <anthony> DS: Is this applicable for a workshop?
20:16:17 <anthony> CL: Yes, seems appropriate for one
20:16:46 <anthony> AG: I cannot make late April, has to be early April
20:17:56 <anthony> DS: I'm going to shoot for early April then it that suits everyone
20:18:06 <anthony> ... Chris do you know when the CSS Group meeting?
20:18:32 <anthony> CL: 29th - 31st March
20:18:44 <anthony> ... Hosted by Apple
20:18:44 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Member/Eventscal.html
20:19:23 <anthony> CL: Fonts WG (tentative) 1st - 2nd April
20:20:01 <anthony> ... also in California
20:20:13 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Related_Conferences
20:20:54 <anthony> DS: Are we on planning on having a F2F before then?
20:22:00 <anthony> ... Then there is SVG Open, where we've had a F2F
20:22:17 <ChrisL> aug 30 sep 2
20:22:52 <ChrisL> in Paris
20:23:17 <anthony> DS: Where is TPAC?
20:23:24 <anthony> ... there's two
20:23:27 <anthony> ... the AC meeting
20:23:30 <anthony> ... then TPAC
20:23:43 <anthony> CL: AC meeting is 21st - 23rd March
20:23:49 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Member/Eventscal.html
20:24:19 <anthony> CL: Unsure about TPAC because it only links to past
20:24:41 <anthony> DS: I know it is going to be France somewhere in the Fall
20:25:01 <anthony> ... I've updated the page with the things we need to think about
20:25:12 <anthony> ... members here on the group don't have to attend AC meeting
20:26:33 <anthony> ... The mini TPAC might not happen this here
20:27:10 <ChrisL> seems to me we should aim for one in Belgium in may for LGM, and one in Paris in August /Sept for SVG Open
20:27:12 <anthony> s/this here/this year/
20:27:31 <anthony> DS: The DOM Summit is more urgent than a mini TPAC
20:28:05 <anthony> ... the DOM Summit will be F2F 1
20:29:14 <anthony> ... we can have a the F2F, 1 day after the Summit or before
20:29:30 <anthony> CL: Are people happy to come to Nice, I can probably host
20:30:10 <anthony> ... or Brussels if we can find a place to host
20:30:31 <anthony> DS: My preference is to have it in Brussels
20:32:00 <anthony> ... we can probably talk to the people organising LGM
20:32:17 <anthony> CL: They have a commercial space
20:32:32 <anthony> ... might cost them money to have it for a few more days
20:32:57 <anthony> DS: Who is hosting?
20:33:17 <anthony> CL: Constant
20:33:27 <ChrisL> ACTION Chris lo look into f2f hosting in Brussels
20:33:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2710 - Lo look into f2f hosting in Brussels [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-01-18].
20:33:49 <anthony> DS: I will also look for W3C members who are also in Belgium
20:34:05 <ChrisL> http://www.microsoft.com/belux/nl/about/belgium/route_bel.mspx
20:34:05 <anthony> PD: I think we have a space out there
20:34:10 <anthony> ... or something near there
20:34:46 <anthony> ... you guys let me know where you want to go
20:34:50 <anthony> ... and I'll look into it
20:35:11 <anthony> ED: What dates are we talking about exactly?
20:35:25 <anthony> PD: Send me some details and I'll hunt something down
20:35:55 <shepazu> #  Libre Graphic Meeting: 27-30 May 2010, Brussels, Belgium 
20:36:19 <shepazu> http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2010/?a=view
20:36:24 <anthony> DS: Does anyone have any preference about having the F2F before or after the Libre Graphics Meeting?
20:37:50 <anthony> CL: Should let LGM know about this
20:37:56 <anthony> ... could have an open day
20:38:10 <anthony> DS: We could have discussions about gradient type features
20:38:46 <anthony> ED: Before LGM would be better for me
20:39:14 <anthony> DS: LGM is very Print centric
20:39:18 <anthony> ... Leonard and another Adobe person will be there
20:39:27 <ChrisL> http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2010/
20:40:28 <anthony> ... having someone from Scibus and Adobe working with us on the Print related stuff would be nice
20:40:58 <anthony> AG: I don't have any preference to either side
20:41:11 <anthony> ED: How many days do you think we need? Just 3 days
20:41:42 <anthony> AG: I disagree, I don't think 3 days will be enough
20:42:09 <anthony> ... because we'll only have 1 day for the DOM Summit and we wont have had any other F2F before then
20:43:32 <anthony> DS: I have a slight preference for having the F2F after
20:43:44 <anthony> ... so we digest what learn at LGM
20:43:52 <ChrisL> I have a slight preference for before :)
20:44:11 <anthony> ED: we could split the F2F
20:44:39 <anthony> CL: We'd be looking at Monday 24th to Wednesday 26th, May
20:45:29 <anthony> AG: Good idea to have a day break before the conference
20:45:38 <anthony> ... then have a 2 day meeting after LGM
20:46:32 <anthony> ED: Are ok with this?
20:46:43 <anthony> PD: I'll see if I can confirm this
20:46:58 <anthony> ED: Doug you will decide the days of DOM Summit
20:47:15 <anthony> DS: But it will be early April
20:47:22 <anthony> CL: What about the one along side SVG Open?
20:47:29 <anthony> ... should we contact the organisers
20:47:39 <anthony> ... so people can host us there?
20:47:56 <anthony> DS: I'm sure we can find people in Paris
20:48:42 <anthony> ... Robin B and I will sit down next week and edit last week
20:48:48 <anthony> CL: I'd like to join you guys on that
20:49:45 <anthony> Topic: Conflicting Actions
20:49:53 <anthony> ACTION-2378?
20:49:53 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:50:00 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2358
20:50:05 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2372
20:50:11 <anthony> ACTION-5372?
20:50:11 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:50:29 <anthony> ACTION-2358?
20:50:29 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:50:40 <anthony> ACTION-2372?
20:50:40 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:50:50 <anthony> ED: Both pending review
20:51:02 <anthony> ... seem to be covering the samething
20:51:23 <ChrisL> ACTION-2358
20:51:23 <ChrisL> Propose wording for the clip path pointer-events erratum and masking/compositing module change
20:51:34 <ChrisL> ACTION-2372
20:51:34 <ChrisL> Propose revised wording for the errata item "Capturing pointer-events with a zero opacity mask" to clarify it with clip-path
20:52:10 <anthony> CL: We started talking about this but then needed JWatt here
20:52:23 <anthony> ED: Ok they are not exactly the same
20:52:30 <anthony> ... one is masking one is clipping
20:52:53 <anthony> CL: It was originally on Doug
20:53:13 <anthony> ... then was transferred to JWatt
20:53:39 <anthony> JW: I'm struggling to recall the details of this
20:53:58 <anthony> DS: JWatt you thought that the values of pointer events were confusing with regards
20:54:01 <anthony> ... to visibility
20:54:05 <anthony> ... and clip paths
20:54:16 <anthony> ... and you didn't want to introduce anything on that same model
20:54:25 <anthony> ... we still didn't have these resolved
20:54:36 <anthony> ... but you had intended coming up with something new
20:54:57 <anthony> JW: My preference was to leave SVG 1.1 as is and propose something to 2.0
20:55:18 <anthony> DS: I was thinking state, this is not defined in 1.1 and say that it will be defined later
20:55:36 <anthony> ... it's not very useful for authors but will speed up the Errata
20:55:50 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/interact.html#PointerEventsProperty
20:55:54 <anthony> ED: Just wondering if we have wording in the 2nd Edition spec already
20:56:12 <anthony> ... This is the most current publish
20:56:47 <anthony> JW: We talked about this quite a lot at Mountain View F2F 2009
20:57:03 <anthony> ... none of the minutes are linked to the actions
20:57:21 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/interact.html#PointerEventsProperty
20:57:31 <anthony> ED: There does seem to be some new wording
20:57:43 <anthony> ... we have two new paragraphs stating something about clip paths and masks
20:57:53 <anthony> ... I don't see anything about introducing new key words
20:57:59 <anthony> ... or new behaviour key words
20:58:05 <anthony> JW: That was just an idea
20:58:21 <anthony> ED: Then it sort of sounds like this has already been done
20:58:39 <anthony> ... and we can raise an issue for the next major version
20:59:07 <anthony> AG: Is there enough wording for authors?
20:59:21 <anthony> DS: Implementers I'm concerned about as well
20:59:39 <anthony> ... don't want loose wording which is implemented a certain way
20:59:44 <anthony> ... then we change it in 2.0
20:59:55 <anthony> JW: I need to look at this
21:00:02 <anthony> ... I can read through it by next week
21:00:25 <anthony> ... I need to come back with a statement about what we should
21:00:37 <anthony> ... do
21:01:37 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
21:01:48 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (43%), jwatt (29%), ed (19%)
21:02:44 <anthony> ED: We should probably talk about the gradient thing at some point
21:03:14 <anthony> CL: I read through it, but I didn't see any consensus
21:03:25 <anthony> ... we should decide what makes the most sense
21:03:33 <anthony> ... and what has the least impact
21:03:49 <anthony> DS: I think no matter what we decide people will have to change
21:03:58 <anthony> CL: We should see what content is out there
21:04:14 <anthony> ... as in a bunch of content relying on something
21:04:29 <anthony> ... or an authoring spitting out something in particular
21:07:02 <anthony> ACTION: Anthony to Test the gradient output of authoring tools and report back
21:07:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2711 - Test the gradient output of authoring tools and report back [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-01-18].
21:08:21 <anthony> Topic: Charter
21:08:35 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/charter/SVG-WG-charter.html <- draft
21:09:12 <anthony> CL: Did you make that using the charter generator?
21:09:18 <anthony> DS: I did
21:10:07 <anthony> ... the charter is more about where we are expanding into
21:10:31 <anthony> ... it includes a bit about the task force
21:10:52 <anthony> ... we got interest from one of the guys from Apple who has interest in Multi Media stuff
21:11:12 <ChrisL> Jack Jansen
21:11:45 <anthony> ... Jack Jansen and I talked about a smaller subset of the SMIL spec
21:11:51 <anthony> ... that CSS and SVG are interested in
21:12:30 <anthony> ... there were some concerns about the level that these interactions where occurring
21:12:50 <anthony> ... what do you guys think about taking on a new animation spec that we would reference instead of SMIL?
21:13:04 <anthony> PD: Is the intent to cross more technologies than SVG?
21:13:15 <anthony> DS: It is. CSS, HTML, SVG
21:13:36 <anthony> CL: Is already looking for that sort of model. Sometimes it is because the SMIL model is not the best
21:13:59 <anthony> ... Jack knows SMIL very well and he'd be very good to have on board
21:14:19 <anthony> DS: Vincent Hardy may also participate
21:14:48 <anthony> DS: This would be more focused on making things easier
21:14:57 <anthony> ... I'm planning on putting that in the charter
21:15:05 <anthony> ... just wanted you guys to know about it first
21:15:13 <anthony> ... doesn't mean we have to work on it
21:15:16 <anthony> ... just means we can
21:16:17 <anthony> ... I haven't completed the charter
21:16:29 <anthony> ... still a working progress so if you have any comments on it
21:16:36 <anthony> ... feel free to send them to me
21:16:59 <anthony> ... I'm basically saying SVG has to evolve but maintain some backwards compatibility
21:17:18 <anthony> ... and fixing some things from the past
21:19:08 <anthony> ED: For the DOM Summit do we have a summary of what we want to change
21:19:19 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM
21:19:51 <anthony> DS: I'd really like you guys to start identifying specific problems
21:19:57 <anthony> ... that you have with the DOM
21:20:08 <anthony> ... and call them out in the work shop
21:20:20 <anthony> ... and have people to come to the table with proposals
21:20:41 <anthony> ... either spec-ed out or worded so it can be put into a spec
21:20:54 <anthony> ... and possibly some sort of library
21:21:23 <anthony> ... my proposal is all the suggestions from the DOM API discussions we were having
21:21:42 <anthony> ... I will advice people to make position papers
21:22:30 <anthony> ... structurally should we review papers before the conference? 
21:22:36 <anthony> CL: Would be a good idea
21:22:44 <anthony> DS: I was thinking of having a morning session
21:22:51 <anthony> ... to present papers
21:23:00 <anthony> ... then the other 2 days hashing stuff out
21:23:19 <anthony> AG: Do all attendees need to present a paper?
21:23:33 <anthony> DS: No. I think it would be good though if the SVG WG put together a proposal
21:24:02 <anthony> ... the WG as a whole will present a position paper
21:24:55 <ed> ACTION: ed to review the SVG DOM and make notes on http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM
21:24:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2712 - Review the SVG DOM and make notes on http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-01-18].
21:25:29 <anthony> DS: People on the WG are welcome to put forward position papers
21:25:36 <anthony> ... but you don't have to
21:26:58 <anthony> PD: One thing we did when we were working with CSS we committed a thousands of conformance tests. I was wondering how to go about doing that for this working group
21:27:24 <anthony> CL: It depends on if they are going to added
21:27:43 <anthony> s/they/how/
21:27:57 <anthony> CL: We have notes on how to add tests
21:28:01 <anthony> ... and we have a template
21:28:05 <anthony> ... for the tests
21:28:22 <ChrisL> we have a methodology fro tracking test maturity so the suite can have newly added stuff and reviewed stuff all at once
21:28:38 <anthony> DS: JWatt and I were talking about a testing framework were people from the public can also help review the tests
21:28:49 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview
21:29:07 <anthony> JW: Patrick do you have a bunch of tests you want to move to the test suite or is this hypothetical?
21:29:19 <ChrisL> I'd rather have tests submitted as they arise rather than in bulk
21:29:20 <anthony> ... we should use the framework that Doug was talking about
21:29:40 <anthony> DS: Also it is intended for use with all the browser specifications
21:29:42 <anthony> ... not just SVG
21:29:59 <anthony> ... the existing stuff does work. In the short term we could use that
21:30:02 <anthony> ... but in the long term
21:30:23 <anthony> ... we can transition to the framework
21:30:56 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:30:57 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:30:58 <Zakim> -ed
21:31:00 <Zakim> -jwatt
21:31:04 <Zakim> -anthony
21:31:09 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:31:10 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:31:11 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Shepazu, ChrisL, jwatt, ed, anthony
21:31:15 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:31:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #SVG
21:31:24 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:31:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/11-svg-minutes.html anthony
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