Chatlog 2012-05-15

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13:53:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:53:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/sparql-irc
13:53:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:53:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:53:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:53:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:53:06 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:53:06 <trackbot> Date: 15 May 2012
13:53:06 <trackbot> Date: 15 May 2012
13:53:16 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org//wiki/Agenda-2012-05-15
13:58:44 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:51 <Zakim> +??P4
13:58:58 <AndyS> zakim, ??P4 is me
13:58:58 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
13:59:27 <Zakim> +kasei
13:59:42 <Zakim> +pgearon
13:59:51 <Zakim> + +49.897.aaaa
14:00:07 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aaaa is probably me
14:00:07 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres?; got it
14:00:21 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres?
14:00:51 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
14:00:54 <AxelPolleres> regrets: carlos
14:00:58 <Zakim> +??P10
14:01:03 <MattPerry> zakim, aabb is me
14:01:03 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:01:04 <AxelPolleres> chair: axel
14:01:05 <swh> Zakim, ??P10 is me
14:01:05 <Zakim> +swh; got it
14:01:30 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres?, MattPerry, swh
14:01:50 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aacc
14:02:27 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres?, MattPerry, swh, +33.4.92.38.aacc
14:02:30 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
14:03:07 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is Olivier
14:03:07 <Zakim> +Olivier; got it
14:04:26 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Lee
14:04:29 <LeeF> scribenick: LeeF
14:04:33 <AxelPolleres> topic:admin
14:04:34 <LeeF> topic: Admin
14:04:55 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve minutes from last TC http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-05-08
14:05:26 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED:  approve minutes from last TC http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-05-08
14:06:03 <LeeF> axelpolleres: next telecon is next week, normal time
14:06:09 <LeeF> ... any news from RDF WG?
14:06:21 <LeeF> AndyS: XML literals are going to be made regular literals and handled like any other
14:06:31 <LeeF> ... rather than being hardwired into RDF specs & parsing process
14:06:50 <LeeF> ... there may also be an HTML5 literal
14:07:06 <LeeF> ... effect on SPARQL engine is that there's a set of datatypes that people may choose to implement, but no expectation
14:08:06 <AxelPolleres> TOPIC: Re-Approve PP test cases
14:08:21 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0118.html
14:08:32 <AxelPolleres> CLOSE ACTION-616
14:08:33 <trackbot> ACTION-616 Send a list of affected and unapproved PP test cases to the mailing list (to be approved after new PP design has been approved) closed
14:09:33 <kasei> I pass them all as well
14:09:36 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: we have 5 changed cases and 2 new ones
14:09:40 <LeeF> ... andy passes them
14:09:41 <LeeF> ... anyone else?
14:09:46 <LeeF> Olivier: they look ok to me
14:10:10 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve modified/new testcases as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0118.html
14:10:21 <LeeF> +1
14:10:25 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:10:33 <MattPerry> +1
14:10:35 <swh> 0 - not even looked at them
14:10:44 <pgearon> +1
14:11:07 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve modified/new testcases as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0118.html
14:11:25 <AxelPolleres> topic: Discuss Options for BINDINGS and VALUES
14:11:36 <kasei> I can change the manifest.
14:11:54 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: greg to approve PP test cases as per resolution
14:11:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-619 - Approve PP test cases as per resolution [on Gregory Williams - due 2012-05-22].
14:12:16 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0126.html
14:12:43 <LeeF> AndyS: if we're doing VALUES inside graph patterns, what do we do with BINDINGS, at the end of a query?
14:13:59 <LeeF> ... three options are:
14:14:04 <LeeF> ... 1/ Remove BINDINGS, and allow VALUES at that same syntax point.
14:14:04 <LeeF> 2/ Allow both forms, keeping BINDINGS as a legacy way of saying what can 
14:14:04 <LeeF> be said with VALUES.
14:14:04 <LeeF> 3/ Keep BINDINGS, not allow VALUES at this point.
14:14:16 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:15:03 <AxelPolleres> Lee: motivation to have BINDINGS in the end was to process BINDINGS as they come in in the end of the query.
14:15:13 <LeeF> LeeF: would option 1 still allow VALUES at the end of the query to be able to stream in the bindings?
14:15:15 <LeeF> AndyS: yes
14:15:56 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: we're going with VALUES instead of BINDINGS because of the confusion with BIND... is there any other concern?
14:16:05 <LeeF> ... why not allow it inline but just use BINDINGS everywhere?
14:17:55 <kasei> q+
14:17:58 <LeeF> AndyS: #3 these aren't bindings, bind affects single bindings within a row, values is multiple rows
14:18:05 <AxelPolleres> ack kasei
14:18:21 <LeeF> kasei: is option 1 purely a syntactical change to what we already have?
14:19:01 <LeeF> AndyS: it happens over the pattern part but before the select/construct/etc.
14:19:04 <LeeF> kasei: so just a parser change?
14:19:06 <LeeF> AndyS: yes
14:19:10 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:19:24 <AxelPolleres> Strawpoll on options 1-3
14:19:28 <AndyS> Opt 1
14:19:31 <kasei> 1
14:19:33 <AxelPolleres> 1
14:19:39 <MattPerry> 1
14:19:45 <pgearon> 1
14:19:53 <LeeF> (no preference)
14:19:56 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:19:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres?, MattPerry, swh, Olivier, Lee_Feigenbaum
14:21:12 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:23:26 <AxelPolleres> Axel: why again did we need NIL in the grammar?
14:23:42 <AxelPolleres> Andy: tokenizer needs it
14:24:05 <AxelPolleres> topic: continue ACTION review
14:24:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: consensus around Andy's option 1, the editor will implement this
14:24:49 <LeeF> AndyS: it's already implemented
14:25:02 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open
14:25:47 <LeeF> ACTION-604?
14:25:47 <trackbot> ACTION-604 -- Lee Feigenbaum to add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list -- due 2012-03-27 -- OPEN
14:25:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/604
14:26:28 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-606
14:26:28 <trackbot> ACTION-606 Update grammar to allow colons in local names closed
14:27:04 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aadd
14:27:05 <sandro> (sorry I'm late)
14:27:05 <LeeF> close ACTION-604
14:27:05 <trackbot> ACTION-604 Add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list closed
14:27:10 <LeeF> close ACTION-606
14:27:10 <trackbot> ACTION-606 Update grammar to allow colons in local names closed
14:27:42 <LeeF> ACTION-608?
14:27:42 <trackbot> ACTION-608 -- Lee Feigenbaum to draft joint official reply -- due 2012-04-17 -- OPEN
14:27:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/608
14:27:43 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-608
14:27:43 <trackbot> ACTION-608 Draft joint official reply closed
14:28:42 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-609
14:28:42 <trackbot> ACTION-609 Put a visible box near the top of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/README.html to highlight what's out of date and where else folks should look for now. closed
14:31:07 <LeeF> ACTION-610?
14:31:07 <trackbot> ACTION-610 -- Sandro Hawke to make the discussed changes (XML Results Format) -- due 2012-05-01 -- OPEN
14:31:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/610
14:31:10 <LeeF> ACTION-611?
14:31:10 <trackbot> ACTION-611 -- Birte Glimm to make sure Sandro made the changes correctly -- due 2012-05-01 -- OPEN
14:31:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/611
14:31:21 <AndyS> Ptr to changes to XML results format?
14:31:35 <sandro> action-617?
14:31:35 <trackbot> ACTION-617 -- Sandro Hawke to prepare a 2nd edition/edited recommendation for XMLres to be published along with the next LC round. -- due 2012-05-15 -- OPEN
14:31:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/617
14:31:50 <LeeF> close ACTION-610
14:31:50 <trackbot> ACTION-610 Make the discussed changes (XML Results Format) closed
14:31:53 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-610
14:31:53 <trackbot> ACTION-610 Make the discussed changes (XML Results Format) closed
14:31:58 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-611
14:31:59 <trackbot> ACTION-611 Make sure Sandro made the changes correctly closed
14:32:04 <LeeF> ACTION-612?
14:32:04 <trackbot> ACTION-612 -- Gregory Williams to check in his version of XML Errata, with [PROPOSED] on each one -- due 2012-05-01 -- OPEN
14:32:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/612
14:32:13 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-612
14:32:13 <trackbot> ACTION-612 Check in his version of XML Errata, with [PROPOSED] on each one closed
14:32:41 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-614
14:32:41 <trackbot> ACTION-614 Write up the different design options on BINDINGS/VALUES to the mailing list for voting closed
14:33:04 <AndyS> Ptr to changes to XML results format?
14:33:22 <LeeF> ACTION-616?
14:33:22 <trackbot> ACTION-616 -- Gregory Williams to send a list of affected and unapproved PP test cases to the mailing list (to be approved after new PP design has been approved) -- due 2012-05-15 -- CLOSED
14:33:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/616
14:33:26 <LeeF> ACTION-617?
14:33:26 <trackbot> ACTION-617 -- Sandro Hawke to prepare a 2nd edition/edited recommendation for XMLres to be published along with the next LC round. -- due 2012-05-15 -- OPEN
14:33:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/617
14:33:51 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: We need to edit the federated query doc to reflect the change from BINDINGS to VALUES
14:34:12 <LeeF> ... this is an informative section
14:34:47 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to contact carlos to implement change from BINDINGS to VALUES in Fed-query for PR
14:34:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-620 - Contact carlos to implement change from BINDINGS to VALUES in Fed-query for PR [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-05-22].
14:35:15 <LeeF> topic: Comments
14:35:27 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments
14:36:57 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: comment on duplicate syntax tests from Dave Beckett
14:37:14 <LeeF> kasei: I can handle it
14:37:24 <LeeF> ... to remove the duplicate entry
14:38:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: one comment from manuelso
14:39:04 <LeeF> LeeF: it's not actually sparql protocol, it's graph store protocol
14:40:32 <LeeF> kasei: i have a comment on JL-3
14:40:53 <LeeF> ... no one realized early enough that GSP was going to need SD support to be viable
14:41:22 <LeeF> ... this is a big issue for a lot of people, but we missed the window to support GSP in SD
14:41:33 <LeeF> ... SD was designed just for query/update via SPARQL protocol
14:42:01 <LeeF> ... i've heard various bits of feedback including privately
14:42:17 <LeeF> ... underlying issue is that for the GSP to be useful, it needs to return something that looks like a service description
14:42:38 <LeeF> ... otherwise it's a very un-REST-ful protocol, because so many requirements are tied  up in the prose of the spec and are not discoverable 
14:42:44 <LeeF> ... e.g. how to identify the default graph
14:43:25 <LeeF> sandro: i think that the current design is a terrible mistake and makes the GSP largely unusable in its current form
14:43:34 <LeeF> ... but didn't see any way to fix it in our current scope
14:43:41 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: future items list?
14:43:55 <LeeF> sandro: i think the linked data platform group will change this landscape completely
14:44:04 <LeeF> kasei: but is publishing what we have a disservice to others doing future work?
14:44:22 <LeeF> AndyS: the comment is asking for changes to SD to reflect the GSP?
14:44:28 <LeeF> kasei: it's asking for changes on both sides
14:44:35 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2012May/0009.html
14:44:56 <LeeF> sandro: i agree there's a problem, but not with the proposed solution
14:45:05 <LeeF> ... i think GSP should be self-contained and not need SD to work
14:45:27 <LeeF> ... (for historical perspective)
14:46:15 <LeeF> kasei: chimezie has historically argued for something like this in using SD to describe GSP
14:46:31 <LeeF> ... but SD was not designed for that, and so the example from JL-3 conflates a SPARQL Protocol service with a GSP service
14:46:40 <LeeF> ... this would play out that every implementation would need to implement both of those
14:46:49 <LeeF> ... i think we're past the point where we can sweep the GSP into what's supported by the SD
14:47:04 <LeeF> sandro: i think that may overstate the case, but we should discuss this with Chimezie
14:47:15 <AxelPolleres> probably put it on next time's agenda separately, when chime is hopefully around.
14:47:48 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to contact Chime on when to talk about JL-3
14:47:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-621 - Contact Chime on when to talk about JL-3 [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-05-22].
14:51:06 <AndyS> Remaining on rq25 (1) STRBEFORE (swh) ; (2) scoping ; (3) grammar bug on PP to fix (for nested objects -- old bug only partially fixed awhile ago) (4) comments [2 areas currently, 3 are all VALUES, 1 is Turtle syntax integration]
14:53:45 <AxelPolleres> fed-query and entailment at least need reports on implementations, fed query needs the fix on s/BINDINGS/VALUES/
14:55:15 <AxelPolleres> paul ... update, another comment from DB, which I am happy yo implement, the other things I think are all recorded in ACTIONs
14:56:39 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to set up a page to_PR on the wiki
14:56:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-622 - Set up a page to_PR on the wiki [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-05-22].
14:57:06 <AxelPolleres> protocol?
14:57:29 <kasei> for protocol, how to test it.
14:57:44 <AxelPolleres> tests and implementations
14:58:03 <AxelPolleres> service description
14:58:29 <AxelPolleres> only open issues only on if graph storee issues would affect SD
15:00:04 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
15:00:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:00:07 <Zakim> -swh
15:00:08 <Zakim> -Olivier
15:00:10 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:00:13 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:00:15 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:00:19 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
15:00:25 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:00:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request, AxelPolleres
15:00:35 <Zakim> -kasei
15:07:44 <kasei> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres?
15:12:03 <swh> kasei, what's wrong with LOAD <foo> INTO <foo> ?
15:12:12 <kasei> nothing. it's just wordy :)
15:12:31 <kasei> (assuming the url is actually longer than 3 bytes)
15:12:35 <swh> pfft, we've got enough suga�r as it is :)
15:12:40 <kasei> heh
15:13:15 <swh> it's not like humans ever write queries anyway :) only for testing and debugging
15:13:43 <pgearon> how about a variant that lets you select the destination graph based on the results of a query?  :-)
15:13:45 <kasei> yeah, yeah.
15:14:17 <kasei> yes. what sparql needs is a JMP operation!
15:15:17 <pgearon> with variables that can be set to JMP locations
15:15:30 <kasei> exactly
15:15:33 <kasei> I think we're onto something here.
15:15:42 <pgearon> stack that up properly and we can implement setjmp and longjmp
15:15:47 <kasei> maybe macros, too.
15:17:28 <kasei> I suppose as long as we got _asm() in there, all the rest would naturally follow :D
15:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, AxelPolleres?, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
15:35:03 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:35:03 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, kasei, pgearon, +49.897.aaaa, AxelPolleres?, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, swh, +33.4.92.38.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum, Olivier, +1.781.899.aadd, Sandro
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