Chatlog 2011-03-22

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13:55:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:55:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:55:34 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, this will be sparql
13:55:34 <Zakim> ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:55:57 <AxelPolleres> agenda:
13:56:03 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: agenda: (AxelPolleres)
13:56:08 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
13:56:14 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Chime
13:59:16 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:59:16 <Zakim> +kasei
13:59:24 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
13:59:36 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
13:59:39 <Zakim> +??P5
13:59:40 <Zakim> -??P5
13:59:40 <Zakim> +??P5
13:59:47 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:59:51 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P5 is me
13:59:51 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
13:59:56 <Zakim> +??P15
14:00:00 <Zakim> + +49.911.973.4.aaaa
14:00:04 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me
14:00:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:00:08 <NicoM> zakim, +49 is me
14:00:10 <Zakim> +NicoM; got it
14:00:18 <Zakim> + +
14:00:34 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aabb is me
14:00:34 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:00:35 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
14:00:44 <Zakim> +??P19
14:00:47 <MattPerry> zakim, aacc is me
14:00:48 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:01:02 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P19 is me
14:01:06 <Zakim> +SteveH_; got it
14:02:11 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, SteveH_
14:02:36 <AndyS> I'll scribe
14:02:43 <AndyS> ScribeNick: AndyS
14:02:48 <AxelPolleres> topic: Admin
14:02:50 <AndyS> Scribe: Andy Seaborne
14:03:00 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:03:16 <AndyS> seconded
14:03:26 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:03:55 <Zakim> -SteveH_
14:04:15 <AxelPolleres> next week back to normal?
14:04:23 <AndyS> Next meeting : Europe on summer time.  Meeting 15:00 UK.
14:04:26 <AxelPolleres> Next regular meeting: 2011-03-29 @ 15:00 UK� / 10:00 EST (scribe: Birte)
14:04:43 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:04:57 <AndyS> ScribeNick: LeeF
14:05:15 <AndyS> Scribe: Lee Feigenbaum
14:05:17 <LeeF> topic: Comments
14:05:20 <AxelPolleres> topic: Comments 
14:05:24 <Zakim> +??P25
14:05:34 <AxelPolleres>
14:05:35 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P25 is me
14:05:35 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:05:46 <AndyS> I have some drafts ready-to-be-approved.
14:05:55 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: unassigned comments 
14:06:01 <LeeF> old one from Jeremy Carrol
14:06:24 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql
14:06:30 <LeeF> comment on federation extension 
14:06:46 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Carlos to dradft an answer for comment WG-1
14:06:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-413 - Dradft an answer for comment WG-1 [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-03-29].
14:06:53 <Zakim> +pgearon
14:07:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: one comment by Kjetil is being superceded by other mails from Kjetil
14:07:25 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: there are some draft responses on the mailing list, please send comments / +1s on those draft responses
14:07:28 <AndyS> Andy's outstanding responses: JB-5 (zero responses so far), and SC-1 (has one yes from Axel)
14:07:48 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: re: Gregg Reynolds's comment, Lee says that offlist communication indicates that Gregg does not expect a response from this WG
14:09:12 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: should we reconsider the naming of the dataset protocol document again? alternative would be "graph store protocol"
14:09:23 <AxelPolleres>
14:09:47 <LeeF> AndyS: where is the vote from last time so we can see where things stood?
14:10:03 <AndyS>
14:10:13 <AxelPolleres> some people replied that we might change the name to "SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol
14:10:47 <LeeF> was the list of choices
14:11:34 <LeeF> AndyS: RDF WG is likely to draw a distinction  between the graph and the container for the graph
14:11:41 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I don't think we should adopt their terminology at this point
14:11:52 <LeeF> AndyS: Right, don't know where the terminology will end up, but let's get the framework right
14:12:44 <LeeF> LeeF: I'll email the WG list floating the possibility of renaming the dataset protocol yet again
14:12:57 <LeeF> SteveH: users don't notice the distinction between mutable and non-mutable concepts
14:13:57 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:14:10 <AxelPolleres> topic: to last call
14:14:17 <AxelPolleres>
14:14:27 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: query status?
14:14:54 <LeeF> AndyS: I processed Birte and Axel's reviews that pertain to my sections; I'm up to date
14:15:05 <LeeF> SteveH: One note in the document that I need to talk to Andy about. 
14:15:41 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aadd
14:15:41 <LeeF> ... one piece of algebra that is wrong per Birte and haven't yet been able to figure out what is right
14:16:44 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I also identified a few issues with the aggregate details
14:16:49 <LeeF> SteveH: Haven't yet gotten to those comments
14:16:52 <ericP> you folks don't [plan to] have a 1.1 test harness which does graph bnode isomorphism for the tester, do you?
14:16:55 <ericP> (i ask 'cause RDB2RDF group contemplating such a harness 'cause their implementations don't require isomorphism equivalence other than for testing)
14:17:05 <LeeF> ericP, no plans for that right now
14:17:08 <ericP> tx
14:17:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Lee still has open review
14:17:15 <LeeF> s/open/pending
14:17:24 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 does?
14:17:50 <LeeF> SteveH: Not likely to be completed this month.
14:18:15 <LeeF> AndyS: there are still pending reviews from Lee and a bit from Axel
14:18:32 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: mine is OK as is if I don't get to anything else
14:19:42 <LeeF> LeeF: I'll punt on my review rather than hold back the schedule. My review is more likely to focus on editorial clarity and consistency then on the algebra details.
14:19:48 <AxelPolleres> Steve: should be ready by April 8
14:19:52 <LeeF> AndyS: Offer to help SteveH with algebra changes
14:20:06 <LeeF> SteveH: Thanks, quite possibly helpful.
14:20:35 <LeeF> SteveH: Could use help looking at Birte's suggested algebra changes for grouping, hard to figure out precise details
14:20:40 <LeeF> (agreement to take conversation offline)
14:20:42 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:20:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, LeeF, SteveH, pgearon, Sandro, +34.92.38.aadd
14:20:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: update status?
14:21:11 <SteveH> AxelPolleres, yes, I've not read your review yet
14:21:14 <LeeF> pgearon: will spend some time this week
14:21:31 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Alex says we'll have update on formal semantics 
14:22:10 <LeeF> AndyS: there are some yet-unaddressed comments from an earlier review from last August - we need to make sure those aren't lost
14:22:19 <LeeF> pgearon: i can look through that list this afternoon
14:22:35 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: paul to check (andy's) old comments on update
14:22:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-414 - Check (andy's) old comments on update [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-03-29].
14:22:55 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to check back with Alex on update formal semantics
14:22:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-415 - Check back with Alex on update formal semantics [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29].
14:23:39 <AxelPolleres> moduylo formal semantics issue, should be ready for LC by first week of April
14:23:55 <LeeF> AndyS: other review?
14:24:01 <LeeF> kasei: Haven't had a chance to start it yet
14:24:19 <LeeF> ... ping me when I should start?
14:24:36 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to ping greg for review as soon as Update formal semantics is ready
14:24:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-416 - Ping greg for review as soon as Update formal semantics is ready [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29].
14:24:48 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: protocol?
14:25:21 <LeeF>
14:26:25 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: section 2.1 has some updates, would be good to have feedback
14:27:53 <AxelPolleres> so, maybe if specifically the reviewers at least could have a look, comments welcome from everybody.
14:28:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: service description?
14:28:19 <LeeF> kasei: held up on editorial issues 
14:28:24 <LeeF> ... 1 is based on protocol document
14:28:36 <LeeF> ... other is on empty graph issue, waiting on ACTION-406 for Lee to provide some text
14:28:40 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:28:42 <LeeF> ... minor changes, nothing substantive
14:28:53 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: on protocol document - schedule?
14:29:26 <AxelPolleres> protocol schedule schedule not entirely clear
14:29:35 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aaee
14:29:39 <AxelPolleres> service description essentially ready for LC
14:29:48 <LeeF> kasei: for protocol dependencies I just need stable links into the document
14:29:51 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aaee is me
14:29:51 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:29:56 <LeeF> kasei: ready for LC very very soon then, I hope
14:30:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: dataset protocol?
14:30:29 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: there are some comments pending
14:31:44 <AxelPolleres> I made some attempt to summarise our position in the draft response to KK-12 ... 
14:31:45 <AndyS> I think bullet one is done.
14:32:04 <AxelPolleres> ... maybe the name change is an issue.
14:32:25 <AndyS> ... and bullet 2 is a change in fundamentals (?)
14:32:30 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: entailment, main problem is still waiting for a review
14:32:38 <LeeF> bglimm: yes, and i might need to add something about property paths
14:32:45 <LeeF> ... because they are different from BGP matching
14:33:00 <LeeF> ... and entailment is not defined for paths that can't be reduced to normal BGPs
14:33:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: can we add that to wiki page?
14:33:09 <LeeF> bglimm: yes
14:34:35 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: can we move ahead without other reviews?
14:34:39 <LeeF> LeeF: no process requirement otherwise
14:34:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: if we have no more internal reviews, I'd be OK to go ahead
14:34:51 <LeeF> (silence, other than typing)
14:35:19 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Birte to add aa paragraph in entailment on property paths
14:35:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-417 - Add aa paragraph in entailment on property paths [on Birte Glimm - due 2011-03-29].
14:35:32 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to review proprtey paths paragraph in Entailment
14:35:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-418 - Review proprtey paths paragraph in Entailment [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29].
14:35:41 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: federated query status?
14:35:58 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: re: entailment, there is still pending discussion of d-entailment and canonicalization 
14:36:06 <LeeF> ... let simmer for a week and see if we get more clarification 
14:36:08 <LeeF> ... no traffic
14:36:21 <LeeF> ... we said if we don't get clarification then we might just drop it
14:36:32 <LeeF> bglimm: not sure we accomplish anything by waiting another week
14:37:03 <LeeF> bglimm: either remove it or strengthen it to define a minimum set of datatypes that need to be supported
14:37:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: straw poll!
14:37:25 <LeeF> bglimm: could be an option to leave as is, but seems to be agreement that it's not useful in its current form
14:37:43 <AxelPolleres> Strawpoll: +1 change D-entailment towards canonicalization -1 drop D-entailment
14:37:51 <SteveH> 0
14:37:52 <AndyS> +1 canonicalize
14:37:56 <cbuilara> 0
14:37:56 <MattPerry> +1
14:37:56 <bglimm> 0
14:37:57 <kasei> 0.5
14:37:57 <pgearon> +1
14:37:58 <NicoM> 0
14:37:58 <LeeF> -1 (haven't heard of any systems that actually do SPARQL + D-entailment)
14:38:08 <AxelPolleres> 0
14:38:45 <LeeF> bglimm: I would need help defining what data types must be supported
14:38:47 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:38:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, LeeF, SteveH, pgearon, Sandro, +34.92.38.aadd, bglimm
14:39:02 <LeeF> q+ to ask about canonicalization 
14:39:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Matt, could you help?
14:39:10 <LeeF> MattPerry: sure
14:40:27 <LeeF> LeeF: I don't think canonicalization (of data being input to a store) is at issue here. This is about stores that do NOT canonicalize data on the way in but enforce D-entailment rules at query time, and we don't know of any systems that do that
14:41:04 <AndyS> +1 - suggest it is on input; and for datatypes, suggest coverage - not MUST
14:41:40 <AxelPolleres> if you do and don't do canonicalization, you get different answers... that's an entailment regime, and it's done by systems
14:43:36 <LeeF> LeeF: I don't understand how canonicalization of data input has anything to do with entailment at query time
14:43:44 <LeeF> AndyS: the entailment regimes do specify legal graphs for input
14:43:59 <LeeF> bglimm: I'd rather not put in the work if there's no benefit to it
14:44:16 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I read that Oracle does this
14:44:23 <AndyS> RIOT can canonicalize on input
14:44:35 <LeeF> MattPerry: is there things in D-entailment that would not be captured by doing canonicalization at input time?
14:44:39 <LeeF> bglimm: you also need to do RDFS entailment
14:45:15 <LeeF> MattPerry: I can send out a list of the canonicalization that we do.
14:45:36 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Matthew to sync with Birte on Datatypes for canonicalisation
14:45:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-419 - Sync with Birte on Datatypes for canonicalisation [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-03-29].
14:45:52 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: federated query status?
14:45:58 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:45:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:46:05 <LeeF> cbuilara: applied the comments from Axel and Lee
14:46:07 <AxelPolleres> topic: Fed Query
14:46:10 <LeeF> ... sent email
14:46:19 <LeeF> ... wiki page with the comments of how I handled these comments
14:46:24 <LeeF> ... waiting for answers 
14:46:32 <LeeF> ... need to clarify some things
14:46:39 <LeeF> ... from Axel and Lee
14:47:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: link to wiki page?
14:47:31 <AxelPolleres> Carlos, add missing issues to Last call page on wiki, please
14:47:34 <AndyS> I'd take the grammar extract out - it's probably out of date.  Link  to ServiceGraphPattern
14:48:33 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Carlos to look into removing grammar extracts from Fed query and direclty link to current grammar
14:48:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-420 - Look into removing grammar extracts from Fed query and direclty link to current grammar [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-03-29].
14:48:34 <Zakim> -pgearon
14:48:48 <cbuilara> fed Query review:
14:49:02 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: JSON results format?
14:49:09 <LeeF> AndyS: no changes yet, concentrating on query
14:49:15 <LeeF> ... JSON can go on a different schedule if need be
14:49:34 <Zakim> +??P13
14:49:39 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:49:39 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:49:46 <NickH> Zakim, ??P13 is me
14:49:49 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
14:50:37 <AxelPolleres> Birte: entailment... ready by end of first week of april
14:50:37 <LeeF> cbuilara: if comments this week, need 1-2 weeks at most to apply final comments
14:50:46 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:50:46 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:51:10 <AxelPolleres> Carlos: reaslistic 1st or 2nd week of april (assuming open questions are addressed by Lee and Axel)
14:51:23 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: overview document? 
14:51:27 <LeeF> ... Lee and Axel to discuss offline
14:52:24 <LeeF> topic: test cases
14:52:33 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: looking for volunteers to look through test cases and figure out what is ready for approval
14:52:44 <LeeF> ... look through minutes, mailing list, etc.
14:52:55 <MattPerry> Property Path tests are ready as far as I'm concerned
14:53:01 <AndyS> I've added some bad syntax tests recently.
14:53:21 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, pick a victim
14:53:21 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MattPerry
14:53:24 <LeeF> LeeF: suggest agenda items for next week: property path tests and bad syntax tests
14:53:33 <OlivierCorby> I can contribute to test cases
14:54:17 <Zakim> + +1.540.412.aaff
14:54:28 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Olivier to look through test cases and provide a summary by next TC
14:54:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-421 - Look through test cases and provide a summary by next TC [on Olivier Corby - due 2011-03-29].
14:54:40 <pgearon> Zakim, aaff is me
14:54:40 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
14:56:19 <LeeF> topic: action review 
14:56:28 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: (reviews pending actions)
14:56:55 <kasei> 407 is done
14:57:11 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-407
14:57:11 <trackbot> ACTION-407 Change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... closed
14:57:27 <LeeF> yes
14:57:52 <AndyS> 408 is done (currently pending) will close.  review of 407.
14:58:52 <MattPerry> yes
14:59:05 <AxelPolleres>  close ACTION-394
14:59:42 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-393
14:59:43 <trackbot> ACTION-393 Review query closed
14:59:54 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-390
14:59:54 <trackbot> ACTION-390 Update comments page closed
15:01:31 <MattPerry> bye
15:01:34 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:01:35 <Zakim> -cbuilara
15:01:37 <Zakim> -NickH
15:01:37 <LeeF> Adjourned.
15:01:39 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:01:43 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:01:47 <Zakim> - +34.92.38.aadd
15:01:49 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:01:51 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:01:53 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:01:58 <AxelPolleres> ACTIONS upto 397 will be reviewed next time.
15:01:59 <Zakim> -kasei
15:02:04 <AxelPolleres> adjourn
15:02:05 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world