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Chatlog 2011-01-25
From SPARQL Working Group
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14:58:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:58:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-sparql-irc 14:58:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:58:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql 14:58:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277 14:58:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:14 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 14:58:14 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2011 14:58:17 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL 14:58:18 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started 14:58:19 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF 14:58:21 <LeeF> Scribe: sandro 14:58:24 <LeeF> Scribenick: sandro 14:58:28 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql 14:58:30 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-25 14:58:32 <LeeF> Regrets: Chimezie 14:58:33 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:58:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa 14:58:51 <SteveH> Zakim, aaaa is [Garlik] 14:58:56 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it 14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aabb 14:59:00 <Zakim> +??P11 14:59:03 <LeeF> zakim, aabb is me 14:59:04 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me 14:59:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P11 is me 14:59:16 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 14:59:20 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it 14:59:20 <NickH> NickH has joined #sparql 14:59:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:59:28 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aacc 14:59:36 <AndyS> zakim, who is speaking? 14:59:47 <ocorby> zakim, aacc is me 14:59:50 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres 14:59:54 <Zakim> +ocorby; got it 14:59:56 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (73%), AxelPolleres (4%) 14:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd 15:00:03 <Zakim> +kasei 15:00:06 <MattPerry> zakim, aadd is me 15:00:06 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it 15:00:09 <Zakim> +sandro 15:00:22 <Zakim> +??P19 15:00:33 <Zakim> +??P21 15:00:33 <NickH> zakim, ??P19 is me 15:00:35 <Zakim> +NickH; got it 15:00:47 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P21 is me 15:00:47 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it 15:00:54 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 15:00:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgearon, SteveH, LeeF, AndyS, ocorby, AxelPolleres, MattPerry, kasei, sandro, NickH, cbuilara 15:01:16 <bglimm> Zakim, passcode? 15:01:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), bglimm 15:01:20 <sandro> scribe: sandro 15:01:31 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-25 15:01:36 <LeeF> topic: Admin 15:01:41 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-18 15:02:17 <sandro> LeeF: main thing last week was what to do with Bindings spec 15:02:20 <AndyS> seconded 15:02:27 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-18 15:02:31 <sandro> bglimm, keep trying. 15:02:36 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2011-02-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Greg) 15:02:59 <sandro> bglimm, different countries wont help with this problem. 15:03:35 <sandro> LeeF: Chime is switching jobs, and wont be able to make telecons, but will still be active in WG via email. 15:03:36 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aaee 15:03:44 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.a is me 15:03:51 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 15:03:51 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it 15:04:08 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 15:04:23 <sandro> LeeF: I'd like to a regular pattern for telecons of status checks, converging on Last Call. Checking on comments, documments, reviews, etc. That's the agenda today and for the next few weeks. 15:05:07 <LeeF> Regrets: Chimezie, Alex 15:05:35 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #sparql 15:05:42 <AndyS> q+ to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them 15:06:24 <sandro> Axel: Anyone willing to take HK2 15:06:28 <AxelPolleres> HK-2 on update ... 15:06:46 <sandro> LeeF: should be an Update editor. Paul? 15:06:57 <sandro> Paul: I'll give it a try 15:06:59 <Zakim> -pgearon 15:07:02 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:07:02 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them 15:07:08 <pgearon> argh. back in a moment..... 15:07:41 <Zakim> +pgearon 15:07:46 <sandro> (should I record this as an action? Lee: no, we'll just use the wiki page.) 15:09:16 <sandro> sandro: it's possible to automate the "please wait, we're working on it" 15:09:25 <sandro> lee: I don't mind confirming them by hand. 15:09:47 <sandro> lee: let's let all outstanding commenters know they haven't been forgotten, and do it for the future within a few days. 15:09:51 <sandro> (sounds great) 15:09:58 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten 15:09:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-378 - Let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01]. 15:12:42 <sandro> AndyS: I could use help responding to comments on json document 15:12:44 <sandro> q+ 15:12:51 <LeeF> ack sandro 15:13:22 <sandro> sandro: did you mean "substantive" in the sense of "big" or "changes to format" ? 15:13:35 <pgearon> +q 15:13:51 <sandro> lee: I don't think the WG was looking for changes to format. 15:14:11 <sandro> lee: same comments as before -- json format is kinda too verbose since it's XML-inspired. 15:14:20 <sandro> sandro: ah, okay. 15:14:21 <LeeF> ack pgearon 15:14:34 <sandro> lee: not so much "it's broken" as "it would be nice if..." 15:14:51 <sandro> paul: I dont want to see the json format change, but the document is pretty much unacceptable in its current format. 15:15:10 <sandro> paul: I think Richard (cygri) and I agree on the comments 15:15:20 <sandro> lee: it just needs a few hours of wordsmithing. 15:15:48 <sandro> lee: if someone wants to help Andy, that'd be great. query is more urgent, though. 15:15:55 <AndyS> I'll send "thx for the comments" messages 15:16:13 <sandro> axel: one comment on Uniform HTTP protocol 15:16:20 <sandro> axel: (http delete) 15:16:41 <sandro> axel: two things on uniqueness of blank nodes, and not-exists vs minus. 15:16:46 <sandro> axel: I can draft answers. 15:17:08 <sandro> axel: but someone else please handle the HTTP Delete one. 15:17:16 <sandro> lee: We'll ask Chime to do that one. 15:17:31 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3 15:17:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-379 - Ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01]. 15:17:46 <LeeF> topic: Last Call Status 15:17:56 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call 15:18:30 <sandro> Lee: Service Description has two reviews, responded to, reaching convergence. In very good shape. 15:18:47 <sandro> greg: a few bits waiting on other docs, or responses from people. 15:18:49 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me 15:18:49 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted 15:19:04 <sandro> LeeF: Entailment, waiting for reviews from folks who agreed to do it. 15:19:13 <MattPerry> sure 15:19:27 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 15:19:27 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 15:19:34 <sandro> LeeF: Query -- plenty of references about editing continuing 15:19:50 <sandro> Lee: Any idea when it will be ready to review 15:20:12 <sandro> Steve: I'm hoping some time this week (unintelligible) 15:20:33 <sandro> Andy: three things to due. head-to-tail edit to get references right, and go through formal section to check it. 15:20:41 <sandro> Lee: some time next week? 15:20:47 <sandro> Andy: I can't promise times. 15:21:44 <sandro> Lee: Update? 15:22:07 <sandro> Paul: all recent things mentioned about Update have been done. But I wouldnt say the document is complete. 15:22:49 <sandro> Lee: need conversation with Alex and you (Paul). if you have nothing on todo list, then we should have it reviewed. 15:23:30 <SteveH> q+ 15:23:46 <LeeF> ack SteveH 15:24:06 <sandro> SteveH: What about Update vs Query vs other stuff on left side of equals? update= ? 15:24:20 <sandro> lee: as I recall, we settled on update= I think. 15:24:35 <kasei> q+ 15:24:42 <LeeF> ack kasei 15:24:50 <pgearon> q+ 15:25:12 <sandro> greg: We agreed you can have multiple operations, including a query. So maybe it should be: request= 15:25:26 <AndyS> ?? last one is a query? I 15:25:33 <sandro> SteveH: Did we really say the last thing might be a query?? 15:25:37 <sandro> Lee: news to me, too! 15:26:04 <LeeF> ack pgearon 15:26:05 <sandro> greg: I thought in transactionality, we said the last thing was you could pull data out, even if it's not really atomic. 15:26:19 <sandro> paul: We were talking about it, but I thought we decided against it. 15:26:26 <sandro> paul: it's not in Update now 15:26:30 <sandro> greg: Okay. 15:27:02 <sandro> paul: Andy commented on Update section 3.1.2 editors note, about graph triples with bnodes. That's still to be discussed..... 15:27:31 <sandro> lee: please send msg to mailing list 15:27:47 <Zakim> -SteveH 15:27:49 <LeeF> update=<update request> 15:27:54 <LeeF> request=<update request> 15:27:58 <sandro> lee: straw poll on update= vs request= 15:28:10 <NickH> 0 15:28:23 <NickH> request= 15:28:28 <sandro> request= 15:28:29 <cbuilara> request= 15:28:34 <SteveH> update= 15:28:35 <MattPerry> update= 15:28:36 <AxelPolleres> 0 15:28:38 <kasei> 0 15:28:42 <ocorby> 0 15:28:43 <AndyS> request= 15:28:52 <Zakim> +[Garlik] 15:28:57 <Zakim> -ocorby 15:29:23 <AndyS> (update= is OK - not a strong feeling) 15:29:31 <AxelPolleres> q+ 15:29:37 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres 15:29:56 <bglimm> undecided, tendency to update 15:29:57 <sandro> axel: I kind of like query= [query doc] update= [update doc] 15:30:06 <kasei> q+ 15:30:10 <LeeF> ack kasei 15:30:14 <sandro> lee: update request === request= 15:30:47 <sandro> greg: because it's form encoding, with a single form.... 15:30:57 <sandro> greg: would request= accept a query? 15:31:12 <SteveH> ...we could support both update=(update) request=(either) 15:31:29 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aaff 15:31:46 <ocorby> zakim, aaff is me 15:31:46 <Zakim> +ocorby; got it 15:32:34 <AndyS> I see that protocol uses "request" more than I remember so I'll go with update= ["request=" either is worrying] 15:32:48 <sandro> lee: could be query=queries, update=updates, request=anything 15:33:20 <AndyS> q+ 15:33:25 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:33:59 <sandro> AndyS: I'm not keen on a std way of doing both. I want to keep them as separate as possible. Worried about injection attacks, etc. 15:34:08 <sandro> lee: what about Greg's web form? 15:34:31 <sandro> AndyS: A processor can offer both at the same endpoint. I don't want to not know until parsing. 15:34:45 <SteveH> I also have AndyS's concerns 15:35:05 <sandro> LeeF: Even if a processor offers both, that doesn't solve the HTML form use case. 15:35:32 <sandro> AndyS: A form is going to do different things on the results anyway, so it'll need to look at the text anyway. 15:35:43 <SteveH> ...it's actually very hard to get it right, but eay to hack 15:35:43 <kasei> that still will require javascript client-side, right? 15:36:15 <LeeF> straw poll: update=, request=<update only>, request=<either> 15:36:20 <sandro> or server side, kasei, at something between the client and sparql. 15:36:30 <sandro> update= 15:36:37 <SteveH> update= 15:36:40 <MattPerry> upate= 15:36:41 <bglimm> update= 15:36:43 <NickH> update= 15:36:44 <AndyS> update= or request=update. 15:36:49 <AxelPolleres> update=, or request=<update only>, no preference between those two 15:36:57 <pgearon> update= 15:37:08 <kasei> happy to support an update-only term, but want one that supports both. 15:37:56 <LeeF> ISSUE: Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string? 15:37:56 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-65 - Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/65/edit . 15:38:12 <SteveH> can we resolve this one? 15:38:59 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests 15:39:21 <SteveH> seconded 15:39:28 <AxelPolleres> +1 15:39:34 <NickH> +1 15:39:36 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests 15:40:08 <sandro> Lee: Uniform HTTP Protocol 15:40:31 <sandro> lee: chime just sent a summary of changes. I need to check with him to see if there are any open issues. I don't think the thread is totally up to date. 15:40:44 <sandro> lee: I think it's nearly ready for review, but I'll check with Chime 15:40:52 <sandro> lee: we DO need to decide on name for document. 15:41:27 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0088.html 15:41:31 <sandro> sandro: no process/techincal problems. 15:42:57 <sandro> Lee: note's Chime: My personal preference is 12 and 6 15:43:19 <sandro> lee: "dataset" seems a little confusing since operations deal mostly with graphs. 15:43:44 <sandro> sandro: what was the response to that? 15:44:05 <sandro> lee: while the protocol deals with indiv graphs, they're part of a dataset. 15:44:26 <sandro> lee: when you use graph= you're referencing a graph withing a dataset. 15:44:26 <AndyS> good summary. 15:45:45 <sandro> sandro: if we take "SPARQL 1.1" out, then what about other document titles? 15:45:47 <SteveH> ?graph= is SPARQL-y 15:45:56 <sandro> Lee: Well, there's no real SPARQL going over the wire here. 15:46:15 <AxelPolleres> would "RESTful RDF Dataset Protocol" be accepted as yet another alternative? 15:46:32 <sandro> Or "RDF Dataset Protocol" ? 15:46:51 <NickH> RESTful isn't offical terminology? 15:47:29 <sandro> Lee: strawpoll, type in preference 15:47:30 <kasei> 1 15:47:33 <NickH> 8,7 15:47:43 <SteveH> 1,4,5 <- all ok 15:47:50 <AndyS> 6 then 4 or 3 15:47:58 <ocorby> 6 15:48:02 <LeeF> 1,4,5 (i'm with Steve) - analogoous without SPARQL1.1 ok with me too 15:48:05 <cbuilara> 6 or 12 15:48:06 <bglimm> 1 15:48:11 <sandro> 8 15:48:14 <AxelPolleres> 8,2, 12,6 15:48:23 <AxelPolleres> (in that order) 15:48:24 <MattPerry> 6 15:48:47 <pgearon> 12, 6 15:49:47 <SteveH> strawpoll on graph/dataset? 15:49:53 <LeeF> Include SPARQL 1.1 in the name or not? 15:49:58 <SteveH> yes 15:49:59 <bglimm> yes 15:49:59 <kasei> yes 15:50:02 <ocorby> yes 15:50:02 <MattPerry> yes 15:50:03 <LeeF> 0 15:50:03 <sandro> no 15:50:05 <pgearon> no 15:50:07 <AxelPolleres> 0 15:50:07 <cbuilara> 0 15:50:08 <NickH> 0 15:50:14 <AndyS> yes 15:50:39 <LeeF> given that we want to include SPARQL 1.1 branding, please indicate preference of names 1-6 15:50:41 <SteveH> if we have SPARQL 1.1 RDF is a bit redundant 15:50:48 <pgearon> 6, 4 15:50:54 <LeeF> 1,4,5 15:50:55 <SteveH> 1,4,5 15:50:56 <bglimm> 1 15:50:59 <ocorby> 6 15:50:59 <AxelPolleres> 2,6 15:51:02 <cbuilara> 6 15:51:02 <AndyS> 6,4 15:51:02 <kasei> 1 15:51:05 <NickH> 5,4 15:51:06 <MattPerry> 6 15:51:12 <sandro> 3 15:51:13 <AndyS> 3 15:51:14 <sandro> :-) 15:51:31 <LeeF> 1 - 4 mentions 15:51:36 <LeeF> 2 - 1 mention 15:51:41 <LeeF> 3 - 2 mentions 15:51:47 <LeeF> 4 - 5 mentions 15:51:48 <sandro> (really 0, I think. I cant decide) 15:51:52 <LeeF> 5 - 3 mentions 15:52:00 <LeeF> 6 - 6 mentions 15:52:54 <SteveH> 4 15:52:55 <sandro> Lee: only 4 and 6: pick one 15:52:56 <kasei> 4 15:52:57 <LeeF> between 6 and 4 which would you prefer? 15:53:01 <LeeF> 4 15:53:05 <bglimm> 4 15:53:07 <sandro> 4 15:53:25 <pgearon> 6 15:53:26 <MattPerry> 6 15:53:26 <cbuilara> 6 15:53:27 <sandro> errr, please change my 4 to a 6, sorry. 15:53:33 <AxelPolleres> 6 15:53:36 <ocorby> 6 15:53:42 <NickH> 4 15:53:57 <AndyS> 64 but really neutral - agreement more important 15:54:27 <sandro> sandro: plus count Chime as a 6. 15:54:49 <SteveH> HTTP is probably redundant 15:54:53 <SteveH> but other than that it's fine 15:55:06 <AxelPolleres> http is in the short name :-) 15:55:08 <sandro> Yeah, I figure people will not bother to say "HTTP" 15:55:11 <LeeF> SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol 15:55:17 <LeeF> SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset Protocol 15:55:39 <SteveH> RDF is also a bit redundant, but lets not go there :) 15:55:40 <NickH> I think the HTTP bit is important 15:55:56 <AndyS> short name has http in it. 15:56:07 <AndyS> sparql11-http-rdf-update/ 15:56:25 <LeeF> strawpoll: include "HTTP" or not? 15:56:33 <NickH> Yes 15:56:37 <sandro> 0 15:56:39 <MattPerry> yes 15:56:39 <SteveH> no, but 0.5 15:56:40 <AndyS> 0 15:56:44 <cbuilara> 0 15:56:45 <kasei> no 15:56:49 <pgearon> 0 15:56:56 <LeeF> 0 15:57:00 <bglimm> 0 15:57:11 <ocorby> yes 15:57:13 <AxelPolleres> if we take out http, then we definitly have to revisit the short name 15:57:28 <SteveH> the short name is odd whatever 15:58:03 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol" 15:58:11 <kasei> +1 15:58:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol" 16:00:05 <kasei> so are the current bind08.srx results correct? 16:00:47 <kasei> ah, ok. then i don't understand the issue. need to read more about it... 16:00:54 <AndyS> Would be "cp bind-05.srx bind08.srx" 16:01:08 <sandro> lee: Federated Query. Carlos? 16:01:31 <sandro> ADJOURN 16:01:36 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me 16:01:38 <AndyS> BINDINGS in rq25 now. Carlos - hope it's not too short. 16:01:40 <SteveH> bye 16:01:45 <MattPerry> bye 16:01:52 <bglimm> bye 16:01:54 <AxelPolleres> bye, thanks. 16:01:57 <NicoM> bye 16:01:58 <cbuilara> I will chek it Andy 16:02:13 <AndyS> Carlos - thanks 16:02:15 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #sparql 16:02:43 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted 16:02:53 <Zakim> -LeeF 16:02:55 <Zakim> -sandro 16:03:05 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres 16:03:07 <Zakim> -cbuilara 16:03:11 <Zakim> -ocorby 16:03:13 <Zakim> -AndyS 16:03:17 <Zakim> -[Garlik] 16:03:26 <Zakim> -pgearon 16:03:28 <Zakim> -NickH 16:03:30 <Zakim> -MattPerry 16:03:34 <Zakim> -bglimm 16:20:25 <SteveH> LeeF, do we have world readable logs of this IRC session? 16:30:38 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world 16:30:41 <LeeF> now we do :) 16:30:54 <LeeF> RRSAgent, pointer? 16:30:54 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-sparql-irc#T16-30-54 16:31:32 <SteveH> thanks Lee 16:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, kasei, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM 16:35:06 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 16:35:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa, +1.617.553.aabb, LeeF, SteveH, AndyS, +33.4.92.38.aacc, AxelPolleres, ocorby, +1.603.897.aadd, kasei, MattPerry, sandro, NickH, cbuilara, 16:35:10 <Zakim> ... +44.186.528.aaee, bglimm, [Garlik], +34.92.38.aaff 18:30:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql 18:56:12 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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