Chatlog 2010-10-05

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13:55:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:55:54 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:55:58 <LeeF> does the speaker phone work?
13:56:02 <ericP> yup
13:56:05 <LeeF> cool
13:56:10 <LeeF> no one else here so hopefully i won't bother anyone :)
13:56:12 <ericP> pretty well, i hear, from those who have to listen to it
13:56:51 <LeeF> trackbot, start meeting
13:56:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:56:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:56:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:56 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:56:56 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2010
13:57:00 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:57:00 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started
13:57:10 <LeeF> Agenda:
13:57:13 <LeeF> Regrets: NickH
13:57:15 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #sparql
13:57:23 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:57:29 <LeeF> Scribenick: AxelPolleres
13:57:34 <LeeF> zakim, please call ericp-office
13:57:34 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; the call is being made
13:57:35 <Zakim> +Ericp
13:57:41 <AndyS> zakim, hello
13:57:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'hello', AndyS
13:57:50 <bglimm> wow, I got a line :-)
13:57:52 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aaaa
13:57:53 <Zakim> +Sandro
13:57:57 <Zakim> +??P9
13:58:02 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aaaa is me
13:58:02 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
13:58:07 <Zakim> +kasei
13:58:08 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
13:58:08 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
13:58:09 <AndyS> zakim, ??P9 is me
13:58:10 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
13:58:30 <sandro> zakim, who is talking
13:58:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', sandro
13:58:30 <LeeF> zakim, who's talking?
13:58:33 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
13:58:36 <AxelPolleres> is it gone?
13:58:41 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P1 (0%), AndyS (22%)
13:58:45 <Zakim> + +
13:58:51 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P1 (4%), AndyS (64%)
13:58:56 <Zakim> + +44.208.439.aacc
13:58:56 <Zakim> -AndyS
13:59:10 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
13:59:13 <SteveH__> Zakim, aacc is Garlik
13:59:13 <Zakim> +Garlik; got it
13:59:15 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:59:15 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:59:16 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:59:19 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:19 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
13:59:25 <SteveH__> Zakim, Garlik is temporarily me
13:59:25 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
13:59:25 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
13:59:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, Ericp, bglimm (muted), Sandro, kasei, OlivierCorby, SteveH__, Ivan
13:59:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, SteveH__, Zakim, RRSAgent, bglimm, AxelPolleres, NicoM, OlivierCorby, AndyS, LeeF, SteveH_, ivan, karl, iv_an_ru, AlexPassant, pgearon, trackbot, ericP,
13:59:32 <Zakim> ... kasei, sandro
13:59:32 <Zakim> +??P16
13:59:34 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:59:52 <SteveH__> AndyS's line sounds bad to me too
14:00:00 <SteveH__> ah, I've got the bad line!
14:00:12 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:00:12 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:00:21 <SteveH__> sounds better now
14:00:25 <LeeF> zakim, ??P1 is AxelPolleres
14:00:25 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
14:00:28 <SteveH__> a bit
14:00:30 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:00:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Ericp, bglimm (muted), Sandro, kasei, OlivierCorby, SteveH__, Ivan, AndyS
14:00:30 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:00:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie
14:00:39 <kasei> echo is back
14:00:42 <LeeF> zakim, ericp temporarily has me
14:00:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ericp temporarily has me', LeeF
14:00:44 <LeeF> zakim, ericp temporarily is LeeF
14:00:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ericp temporarily is LeeF', LeeF
14:00:52 <AndyS> bglimm, but the cat can chase them around
14:00:52 <LeeF> zakim, ericp is LeeF
14:00:52 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:00:53 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd
14:01:07 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:01:08 <MattPerry> zakim, aadd is me
14:01:08 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:01:24 <Zakim> +??P20
14:01:30 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P20 is me
14:01:30 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:01:44 <AxelPolleres> yup
14:01:50 <LeeF> scribenick: AxelPolleres
14:01:54 <LeeF> topic: Admin
14:01:57 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:01:58 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:01:58 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:01:59 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin
14:02:30 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:02:45 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-10-12 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EDT (scribe: SteveH ) 
14:02:50 <ivan> regrets for next week
14:02:52 <AlexPassant> Regrets for next week, I'm traveling
14:02:52 <AxelPolleres> next meeting usual time next week
14:02:56 <ivan> and the week after, actually
14:03:16 <ivan> oops, wait! I will be around next week, only the week after will not be
14:03:17 <ivan> sorry
14:03:26 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: schedule/extension
14:03:28 <NicoM> Regrets for next two weeks. Will also be travelling
14:03:37 <SteveH__> echo is not good
14:03:47 <SteveH__> but can understand if concentrate
14:03:49 <LeeF>
14:04:38 <AxelPolleres> plan is to have LC Dec 1, CR Feb 1, PR Apr 15, Rec by June 1
14:04:48 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:05:22 <AxelPolleres> feedback from Andy and Steve... Dec 1 might be too tight, rather Dec 15 
14:05:23 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
14:05:55 <AxelPolleres> ... andy had questions about length of LC period length.
14:06:15 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me
14:06:15 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:07:57 <AndyS> LC : Dec 15?
14:08:08 <Zakim> + +1.562.978.aaff
14:08:10 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
14:08:19 <LeeF> CR : mar 1
14:08:20 <AndyS> LeeF: don't count 2 weeks of holidays
14:08:21 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aaff is me
14:08:21 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
14:08:26 <AxelPolleres> can scribe again!
14:08:27 <AndyS> ... CR at March 1
14:08:34 <AndyS> ... 2.5 month CR
14:08:36 <LeeF> PR : May 15
14:08:45 <LeeF> REC : Jul 1
14:09:25 <kasei> q+ to ask how protocol/tests fit into this
14:09:32 <AxelPolleres> Andy: don't think we need LC period longer, but we need to handle all comments.
14:09:47 <AxelPolleres> Ivan: Christmas vacation closes down half of the world.
14:10:33 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: andy, what you say is that if we receive comments for 6 weeks we need probably another 4 weeks for addressing them
14:10:58 <AxelPolleres> ... that would help, yes.
14:11:21 <AxelPolleres> Andy: LC Dec 15... how much time in advance do we need to review all docs?
14:12:00 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: we need to be approving latest 1st week of Dec, reviews two weeks before that, maybe mid november docs need to be finished
14:12:25 <AxelPolleres> ... 1 1/2 months from now... severe changes after that will need to be handled carefully, documented well
14:12:36 <AndyS> LeeF: Docs need to be basically finished by Nov 15
14:13:01 <AxelPolleres> ... challenge if we go any later is that we would slip another month with the schedule.
14:13:10 <LeeF> ack kasei
14:13:10 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask how protocol/tests fit into this
14:13:31 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:13:33 <AxelPolleres> greg: how does this schedule affect protocol and test suite? 
14:13:48 <AxelPolleres> Lee: hope for a sprint on the protocol doc 
14:14:00 <AxelPolleres> (Axel: same here for Test Suite)
14:14:19 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:14:23 <AxelPolleres> Lee: hesitant to ask someone else at this point, but we lost an editor.
14:14:42 <AxelPolleres> ... I am less concerned about test suite, enough if it comes together by CR
14:14:51 <AxelPolleres> ... but of course better if earlier.
14:15:08 <AxelPolleres> ... don't want to do a separate schedule for those two, though.
14:15:36 <AxelPolleres> ... pushing out further would mean not finish until August.
14:16:00 <AxelPolleres> ... let's rather try Dec 15 the best we can.
14:16:26 <LeeF> topic: WD publication
14:16:31 <AxelPolleres> ... chairs & team will take care of charter extensions, respectively.
14:16:40 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:17:02 <AxelPolleres> let's start with Query (andy&steve)
14:17:06 <AxelPolleres> Andy: I am done.
14:17:49 <AxelPolleres> Steve: It's fine from my side.
14:17:58 <SteveH__> yes
14:17:58 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:18:00 <sandro> yes, sound is better now
14:18:11 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: two �reviewers agreed to publish last week.
14:18:27 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish as working draft 
14:18:36 <kasei> +1
14:18:36 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:18:37 <bglimm> +1
14:18:37 <ivan> +1
14:18:51 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:18:55 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish as working draft 
14:19:11 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: update
14:19:39 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: paul/alex did you have a chance to include Axel's/Andy's comments?
14:19:50 <AxelPolleres> Alex: worked in almost all comments
14:20:21 <Zakim> -SteveH__
14:20:26 <AxelPolleres> ... will be able to address formal model comments this week
14:20:39 <Zakim> +Garlik
14:20:41 <AxelPolleres> Andy: I am fine with publishing "as is"
14:20:47 <SteveH__> Zakim, Garlik is temporarily me
14:20:47 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
14:21:37 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish following Axel's OK on the 2nd half of his review
14:21:43 <Zakim> +Philippe
14:22:06 <bglimm> +1
14:22:20 <AndyS> +1
14:22:22 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:22:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish following Axel's OK on the 2nd half of his review
14:22:31 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to complete update review in the next two days.
14:22:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Complete update review in the next two days. [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-10-12].
14:22:35 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:22:35 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:22:43 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:22:43 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:22:48 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: entailment
14:23:21 <AxelPolleres> birte: lee's review missing, apart from that fine. had some comments from Enrico (Bolzano), will add some resp. editor's notes.
14:23:32 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish as WD
14:23:39 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's publish as is for now and discuss further upon published WD
14:23:43 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:23:46 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:23:46 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:23:49 <bglimm> +1
14:23:49 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:23:52 <AndyS> +1
14:23:53 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish as WD
14:24:11 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: rdf-http-update
14:24:27 <SteveH__> I'm happy to review http update if not
14:25:01 <AxelPolleres> Chime: don't remember if we specifically if we had reviews
14:25:21 <AxelPolleres> Axel: just see that we didn't decide, because chime wasn't around.
14:25:34 <AxelPolleres> chime: open comments are those from Tim Berners-Lee
14:26:18 <AxelPolleres> Lee: steve, can you do a review on rdf-http-update?
14:26:31 <AxelPolleres> Steve: I can see how far I get tonight
14:26:49 <AndyS> q+
14:26:49 <AxelPolleres> Lee: happy to publish contingent Steve's review
14:27:24 <AxelPolleres> Andy: where are we on ?default   ? should be noted in the doc.
14:27:41 <AxelPolleres> Chime: it's noted, but haven't worked it in yet.
14:27:50 <LeeF> ISSUE: Handling of default graph in HTTP update protocol
14:27:50 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-63 - Handling of default graph in HTTP update protocol ; please complete additional details at .
14:27:58 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's create a WG issue not to forget.
14:28:24 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish following Steve's OK or Steve's suggested changes and Chime's incorporation of them
14:29:00 <SteveH__> +1
14:29:10 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish following Steve's OK or Steve's suggested changes and Chime's incorporation of them
14:29:13 <bglimm> +1
14:29:15 <AxelPolleres> Leef: proposal means, if chime and steve can't agree, we'll just hold off publishing for now.
14:29:17 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:29:17 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:29:28 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: service description
14:29:46 <kasei>
14:29:54 <AxelPolleres> greg: updated status of the doc, other outstanding issue was formatting of schema information.
14:30:28 <AxelPolleres> ... if people are ok with that formatting, I will propagate that throughout the doc.
14:31:13 <AxelPolleres> ... I can commit that domain/range right after the call and then would be ready to go.
14:31:22 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish as WD after pending formatting changes for schema info
14:31:33 <AndyS> +1
14:31:35 <bglimm> +1
14:31:35 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:31:41 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish as WD after pending formatting changes for schema info
14:32:40 <AxelPolleres> leave Overview and test suite docs out  for now.
14:32:46 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:32:52 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: leave Overview and test suite docs out  for now.
14:32:53 <LeeF> topic: LET/BIND/assignment
14:33:05 <LeeF>
14:33:10 <bglimm> What is the date, we should use for the documents?
14:33:27 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:34:35 <bglimm> OK
14:34:56 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: we will follow up with editors on publication details with editors
14:35:03 <LeeF> straw poll: include LEt/BIND/whatever in SPARQL 1.1
14:35:07 <AxelPolleres> ... on the date, etc.
14:35:25 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:35:29 <AndyS> +1 (include)
14:35:29 <bglimm> 0
14:35:33 <OlivierCorby> -1
14:35:33 <ivan> 0
14:35:35 <AlexPassant> +1
14:35:35 <SteveH__> -1
14:35:36 <MattPerry> 0
14:35:38 <chimezie> +1 (strong preferrence on *not* using LET as syntax)
14:35:47 <LeeF> 0
14:35:49 <AxelPolleres> q+ on syntax
14:35:49 <Souri> 0
14:35:54 <AndyS> ack me
14:37:09 <AxelPolleres> Olivier: I think sparql is a graph match language, so Assignment is IMO not appropriate
14:37:30 <AxelPolleres> Leef: we still have consensus in favor of inclusing it.
14:37:39 <AxelPolleres> s/inclusing/including/
14:37:49 <LeeF> two semantics questions
14:38:01 <AxelPolleres> Leef: two issues on semantics
14:38:11 <LeeF> 1) What happens if you try to assign/bind to a variable that is bound elsewhere in the query?
14:38:18 <AxelPolleres> ... 1) assign/bind a variable that is bound elsewhere in the query
14:38:53 <AxelPolleres> ... simple semantics vs. join semantics.
14:40:05 <AxelPolleres> ... simple disallows that, other semantics creates a one column solution set and joins it with the current binding
14:40:10 <SteveH__> q+
14:40:58 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:40:58 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on syntax
14:41:31 <SteveH__> extend is simple I believe
14:41:32 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: is the EXTEND operator simple semantics or join/filter semantics?
14:42:01 <LeeF> AndyS: it is EXTEND, but we have a syntactic restriction on the AS variable
14:42:04 <LeeF> ack SteveH__
14:42:41 <AxelPolleres> Axel: I am fine, under the syntactic restriction, if assign is just an extra syntactic sugar for Extend()
14:43:05 <AxelPolleres> Steve: (??? can you please type in your question?) 
14:43:44 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: my idea for join semantics is a row-by-row join
14:43:59 <AxelPolleres> Steve: is there a definition which does the join over the full table?
14:44:16 <AxelPolleres> Andy: not sure whether that works, if it is a new variable
14:44:28 <LeeF> q?
14:44:37 <AxelPolleres> Steve: that would be a separate piece of algebra.
14:44:44 <SteveH__> very keen to avoid defining it in row-by-row terms
14:45:27 <AxelPolleres> q+ 
14:45:32 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:45:36 <AndyS> Ack - Not row-by-row : better is "add col to table"
14:46:00 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
14:46:59 <chimezie> I have a preference to only assign to new variables otherwise, it really exacerbates Olivier's concerns about taking a drastic step away from graph matching
14:47:21 <SteveH__> +1
14:47:23 <Zakim> +??P2
14:47:24 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:47:24 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:47:27 <AxelPolleres> Andy: if we want to make it order independent, then we need the filter effect.
14:48:01 <AxelPolleres> ... let me try to write an example.
14:48:27 <AndyS> WHERE { ?x :p ?v . KW(?two := 2*?v) . ?x :p ?two }
14:48:50 <AndyS> (sorry about any emoticons)
14:48:51 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:48:51 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:49:13 <AxelPolleres> Leef: we use this feature for UNIONs 
14:49:14 <AndyS> WHERE { ?x ns:q ?v . KW(?two := 2*?v) . ?x ns:q: ?two }
14:49:30 <AndyS> WHERE { ?x ns:q ?v . ?x ns:q: ?two . KW(?two := 2*?v) .  }
14:49:45 <SteveH__> that would be illegal under simple semantics, right?
14:49:47 <SteveH__> both
14:49:57 <AxelPolleres> Andy: your example seems to be doable by normal FILTER as well?
14:50:22 <AxelPolleres> s/Andy:/Andy,/
14:51:08 <LeeF> q?
14:51:31 <AndyS> WHERE { ?x ns:q: ?two . KW(?two := 2) .  }
14:51:42 <AndyS> WHERE { ?x ns:q: 2 }
14:52:13 <LeeF> WHERE { ?x ns:q: ?two . FILTER(?two = 2) 
14:52:32 <kasei> surely that would have to be sameTerm?
14:52:36 <LeeF> (yes)
14:53:11 <LeeF> straw poll: semantics? filter/join, simple, or 0 
14:53:18 <chimezie> simple
14:53:23 <SteveH__> strong pref for simple
14:53:28 <bglimm> 0
14:53:30 <MattPerry> simple
14:53:31 <AndyS> filter > simple > 0
14:53:33 <AxelPolleres> simple
14:53:47 <kasei> filter (mildly)
14:53:51 <LeeF> filter 
14:53:56 <AlexPassant> 0 / simple
14:54:42 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: see a preference for the simple semantics, will require editors to look into what that means.
14:55:19 <LeeF> LET ( ?var := expr )
14:55:24 <LeeF> BIND ( ?var := expr )
14:55:34 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: syntax...
14:55:35 <LeeF> BIND ( expr AS ?var )
14:56:09 <ericP> PLEASE LET ?var BIND TO expr
14:56:31 <ericP> !@#$! NO!
14:56:32 <AndyS> The syntax restriction is not enforced by the algebra in (extend)
14:56:43 <Souri> Por Favor | Please
14:57:43 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:57:55 <SteveH__> it should behave like FILTER if it looks like FILTER, w.r.t. ordering
14:58:19 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: semantics/order... do we want BIND to "execute" like a FILTER in the end of the group ort "in place"?
14:58:27 <Zakim> +bglimm
14:58:37 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:58:37 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:58:45 <AxelPolleres> Andy: in ARQ it is order-independent
14:58:52 <LeeF> WHERE { ?x ns:q ?v . KW(?two := 2*?v) . ?x ns:q: ?two }
14:58:59 <LeeF> in place semantics: the above is allowed
14:59:07 <LeeF> end of group semantics: the above is an error
14:59:20 <SteveH__> it might be an error either way
14:59:24 <SteveH__> ?two is still in scope
15:00:11 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: we're out of time, let's fix this up first thing next week.
15:00:31 <AxelPolleres> ... further suggestions on algebra for this appreciated on the mailing list!
15:00:41 <AxelPolleres> ... thanks all, adjourned.
15:00:44 <bglimm> bye
15:00:45 <SteveH__> bye
15:00:46 <Zakim> -Souri
15:00:46 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:00:47 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:00:48 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:00:49 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:00:49 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:00:50 <MattPerry> bye
15:00:51 <Zakim> -SteveH__
15:00:53 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:00:54 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:00:56 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:00:56 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:00:57 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:00:59 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:01:01 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:01:05 <Zakim> -kasei
15:01:07 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:01:32 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql