Chatlog 2010-09-07

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13:51:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:51:36 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:51:45 <bglimm> Zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:51:45 <Zakim> ok, bglimm; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:52:08 <bglimm> Scribe: Birte Glimm
13:52:14 <bglimm> ScribeNick: bglimm
13:52:25 <bglimm> Chair: LeeF
13:52:55 <bglimm> Meeting: SPARQL
13:53:04 <kasei_> kasei_ has joined #sparql
13:53:17 <bglimm> Agenda:
13:54:34 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:54:40 <Zakim> +bglimm
13:55:55 <ivan> ivan has joined #sparql
13:56:15 <bglimm> Regrets: Souripriya Das, Andy Seaborne
13:56:36 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #sparql
13:57:04 <LeeF> Regrets+ AxelPolleres 
13:57:38 <Zakim> +kasei
13:57:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:57:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:57:52 <Zakim> +mischa
13:58:00 <SteveH__> Zakim, mischa is [Garlik]
13:58:02 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
13:58:12 <SteveH__> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me
13:58:12 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
13:58:45 <Zakim> +LeeF
13:58:59 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
13:59:21 <SteveH__> bglimm, I moved from wired to wireless nw
13:59:43 <Zakim> +??P10
13:59:43 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:59:45 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?P10 is me
13:59:45 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P10'
14:00:00 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P10 is me
14:00:00 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:00:23 <Nicholas> Nicholas has joined #sparql
14:00:50 <Zakim> +MattPerry
14:01:02 <LeeF> topic: Admin
14:01:07 <LeeF>  PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:02:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:02:07 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
14:02:27 <Zakim> +??P21
14:02:32 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:02:41 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-09-14 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EDT (scribe: Axel Polleres ) 
14:02:54 <bglimm> LeeF: next meeting, as usual (Tue 14th)
14:03:09 <sandro> regrets next week
14:03:12 <ivan> I may be at risk
14:03:15 <LeeF> zakim, ??P21 is Nicholas
14:03:15 <Zakim> +Nicholas; got it
14:03:42 <LeeF> topic: JSON Results Format
14:03:47 <bglimm> Topic: JSON results format
14:04:03 <LeeF>
14:04:17 <bglimm> LeeF: First WG published this doc as a WG note
14:04:39 <Zakim> +??P26
14:04:41 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P26 is me
14:04:44 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:04:44 <bglimm> ... contains a JSON version of the standard XML results format
14:05:13 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:05:24 <bglimm> ... didn't go through the normal standardisation process since it is a note (no implementations required for example)
14:05:44 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:05:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie
14:05:49 <bglimm> ... seem popular in practise, several implementations
14:06:08 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:06:13 <bglimm> ... Should we publish it as real standard?
14:06:39 <bglimm> ... Would cause more work in terms of test cases, reviews, etc
14:06:44 <Nicholas> I think making JSON an offical standard is really important
14:06:56 <kasei_> +1 (would also like to see jsonp support)
14:07:02 <SteveH> +0.5
14:07:05 <bglimm> ... I would like to hear opinions about this
14:07:06 <Nicholas> will really help adoption
14:07:14 <sandro> +0.5
14:07:22 <bglimm> Nicholas: We use JSON a lot at BBC
14:07:38 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:07:38 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:07:38 <bglimm> ... easy to parse, many developers know it, would help adoption of SPARQL
14:07:39 <chimezie> +1
14:07:57 <SteveH> yes, terrified of toppling over
14:07:59 <ivan> q+
14:08:00 <SteveH> :)
14:08:02 <sandro> yes, that's why I didnt say "+1"
14:08:13 <AlexPassant> never used XML/SPARQL and works only w/ JSON, so also happy to have it as a rec
14:08:14 <bglimm> LeeF: I see a lot of support on IRC. Is anybody worried about this additional burden?
14:08:22 <bglimm> IvanH: Do we have editors?
14:08:33 <Zakim> +pgearon
14:08:44 <bglimm> LeeF: The doc does not need much work, we could keep the note editors
14:08:44 <pgearon> apologies for tardy arrival
14:08:54 <pgearon> muted
14:09:36 <bglimm> IvanH: Before making a decision, we should make sure we have editors who take responsibility for the document and the work this will cause. 
14:09:52 <bglimm> ... We might want to look at this when other docs are in LC. 
14:10:28 <ivan> q?
14:10:36 <bglimm> LeeF: I wouldn't make a decision before we have editors, but I want to see how much support this would have.
14:10:37 <LeeF> ack ivan
14:11:12 <bglimm> IvanH: We have the questionnaire for next steps for RDF and we might have a JSON format for RDF
14:11:45 <AlexPassant> would also require a return format for Update (simple 'success' / 'failure' pattern)
14:12:06 <pgearon> I think that JSON is possibly more used than XML is at the moment
14:12:13 <bglimm> ... The current JSON for SPARQL format does not cover constructs, but could possibly be combined with the JSON for RDF and cover costructs this way
14:12:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to work with Axel to identify potential editor(s) to shepherd through JSON document on Rec track
14:12:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-306 - Work with Axel to identify potential editor(s) to shepherd through JSON document on Rec track [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-09-14].
14:12:46 <bglimm> LeeF: If anybody is interested in an editorial role for this please contact me and/or Axel
14:12:58 <bglimm> Topic: Test Cases
14:13:17 <bglimm> LeeF: We can hopefully approve some more test case sets
14:13:25 <LeeF> group_concat test cases:
14:13:30 <bglimm> ... some from greg for GROUP_CONCAT
14:14:08 <bglimm> ... there are two plus one from a later date
14:14:39 <LeeF> agg-groupconcat-1
14:14:43 <LeeF> agg-groupconcat-2
14:14:48 <bglimm> ... AndyS reported that ARQ passes the two older ones
14:14:55 <kasei_> I think the third duplicates the first, but also adds the separator.
14:15:06 <kasei_> I pass them
14:16:01 <bglimm> LeeF: The difference between the first and the third is that the third uses a non-default separator
14:16:37 <bglimm> ... Since the order of the rows in an aggregate is not specified, you can get multiple strings
14:17:22 <bglimm> ... Greg used a FILTER to test for the possible orders, useful way of abstracting from the fact that we need implicitly have an order
14:17:25 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve tests agg-groupconcat-1, agg-groupconcat-2, and agg-groupconcat-3
14:17:57 <kasei_> +1
14:17:57 <pgearon> Seconded
14:18:42 <bglimm> SteveH: You want to abstain as for past test cases?
14:18:48 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve tests agg-groupconcat-1, agg-groupconcat-2, and agg-groupconcat-3
14:18:53 <bglimm> SteveH: I'll check them later
14:19:23 <LeeF> project expression tests:
14:19:24 <bglimm> LeeF: We have 7 tests for project expressions
14:19:28 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:19:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see bglimm, kasei, SteveH, Ivan, LeeF, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Sandro, Nicholas, AlexPassant, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), pgearon
14:19:52 <bglimm> OlivierCorby: I created these tests
14:19:56 <LeeF> Andy - - ARQ passes all 7
14:20:13 <bglimm> LeeF: AndyS reported that ARQ passes these 7 tests
14:21:07 <bglimm> kasei: Are these the test with * in addition to variable lists?
14:21:16 <bglimm> OlivierCorby: I corrected that.
14:21:26 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve tests projexp01 - projexp07
14:21:40 <bglimm> kasei: My system passes these tests
14:21:45 <kasei_> +1
14:21:57 <bglimm> LeeF: Any objections, abstains?
14:22:01 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve tests projexp01 - projexp07
14:22:35 <bglimm> LeeF: Axel suggested some tests for entailments
14:23:04 <LeeF> entailment test cases:
14:23:18 <LeeF> bglimm: Axel's question was whether the surrogate blank nodes introduced should be returned
14:23:24 <LeeF> bglimm: ...and the answer is "no"
14:23:49 <bglimm> LeeF: Is that in CVS?
14:23:58 <bglimm> bglimm: I am not sure whether Axel added this.
14:24:10 <bglimm> bglimm: I will add this
14:24:33 <LeeF> ACTION: Birte to add Axel's two surrogate blank node test cases to CVS
14:24:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-307 - Add Axel's two surrogate blank node test cases to CVS [on Birte Glimm - due 2010-09-14].
14:25:11 <bglimm> LeeF: There were discussions about SPARQL Update, triggered by Andy's review
14:25:29 <bglimm> ... Is that just rewording or is tehre anything we need to discuss
14:25:49 <bglimm> AlexPassant: It is some rewording and some details for the formal update model
14:26:04 <bglimm> ... we will finish the formal model by the end of the week and get another review then
14:26:22 <bglimm> ... I have not yet checked what was identified as issues
14:26:51 <bglimm> LeeF: I am interested in the model and I can check it once it is finalized
14:27:03 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql
14:27:04 <bglimm> ... Any other comments?
14:27:11 <pgearon_> pgearon_ has joined #sparql
14:27:11 <bglimm> Topic: Open Actions
14:27:31 <LeeF>
14:27:40 <bglimm> LeeF: Whoever has open actions, please check them and let's try to close some
14:28:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-77
14:28:22 <trackbot> ACTION-77 Investigate ISSUE-33 closed
14:28:30 <bglimm> ... The first is mine, and became a non-issue because we have only few update actions
14:28:34 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:28:34 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:28:39 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-116
14:28:39 <trackbot> ACTION-116 Address the concerns in closed
14:28:47 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:28:48 <bglimm> The second one is actually completed by Chime
14:29:08 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-130
14:29:08 <trackbot> ACTION-130 Summarize 4 options relating to grouping by expressions on the mailing list and solicit information on what existing implementations do closed
14:29:12 <bglimm> Action 130 seems completed since we had iscussions
14:29:12 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 130
14:29:31 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-132
14:29:31 <trackbot> ACTION-132 Make sure algebra has some position on what aggregate functions are & do (w.r.t. expressions by reference) closed
14:29:33 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:29:43 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 132 on Steve is about the algebra and how aggregates fit in
14:29:55 <bglimm> SteveH: Completed
14:29:56 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:29:56 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:30:19 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-179
14:30:19 <trackbot> ACTION-179 start an email thread about fregments of propertypaths that could be dealt with in SQL closed
14:30:29 <bglimm> Matt: Action 179 is completed 
14:30:47 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 184 on Orri tha
14:30:59 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:30:59 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:31:03 <bglimm> ... that still needs o be addressed
14:31:26 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-194
14:31:26 <trackbot> ACTION-194 Collect testcases for negation closed
14:31:38 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-199
14:31:38 <trackbot> ACTION-199 Collect test cases for entailment closed
14:32:31 <bglimm> SteveH: I haven't done Action 200
14:33:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-205
14:33:05 <trackbot> Sorry... closing ACTION-205 failed, please let sysreq know about it
14:33:47 <bglimm> LeeF: I am not sure about 209
14:33:55 <Zakim> -Sandro
14:34:13 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-205
14:34:13 <trackbot> Sorry... closing ACTION-205 failed, please let sysreq know about it
14:34:47 <bglimm> Sandro has an action to work with greg on SD with multiple graphs
14:35:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-213
14:35:05 <trackbot> ACTION-213 Work with Greg on an example to investigate what happens when multiple descriptions of the same graph are merged together closed
14:35:29 <bglimm> kasei: I think we we are fine, we had some discussions, but Sandro had still some concerns recently
14:35:53 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-220
14:35:53 <trackbot> ACTION-220 Review the federated query document at closed
14:36:03 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 220 is no longer relevant
14:36:17 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-221
14:36:17 <trackbot> ACTION-221 Reformulate Condition 4 closed
14:36:33 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-222
14:36:33 <trackbot> ACTION-222 Propose rewordings on mailinglist on http-protocol which clarify ISSUE-49 closed
14:36:59 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-223
14:36:59 <trackbot> ACTION-223 Look over closed
14:37:06 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-224
14:37:06 <trackbot> ACTION-224 Check with editors what's the status of docs wrt. publication schedule closed
14:37:19 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-226
14:37:19 <trackbot> ACTION-226 Come up with a proposed re-schedule and suggestion on how to proceed until Rec closed
14:37:42 <bglimm> LeeF: Chime, do you know about Action 227?
14:37:55 <bglimm> Chime: I don't know enough
14:38:00 <bglimm> LeeF: Let's keep it open
14:38:14 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-230
14:38:14 <trackbot> ACTION-230 Review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness closed
14:38:15 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-232
14:38:15 <trackbot> ACTION-232 Review Service Description document closed
14:38:26 <bglimm> LeeF: 230 and 232 are old
14:38:41 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-242
14:38:41 <trackbot> ACTION-242 Update Section 7 to reflect relaxed finiteness conditions for BGP matching extension. closed
14:38:42 <bglimm> ... 242, Chime is that done?
14:38:47 <bglimm> Chime: Yes, that's old
14:38:58 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-243
14:38:58 <trackbot> ACTION-243 Review changes on Section 7. closed
14:39:07 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-244
14:39:07 <trackbot> ACTION-244 Collect http-protocol issues and mail to list, others respond if you see anything missing closed
14:39:14 <bglimm> LeeF: 244 is done
14:39:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-246
14:39:22 <trackbot> ACTION-246 Check/approve final version of update closed
14:39:26 <bglimm> ... 246 is old too
14:39:57 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-247
14:39:57 <trackbot> ACTION-247 Give examples that highlight possible ambiguities in the resolutions from last f2f concerning ISSUE-16 closed
14:39:57 <bglimm> LeeF: Is 247 done?
14:40:03 <bglimm> SteveH: Yes
14:40:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-249
14:40:05 <trackbot> ACTION-249 Check back with Lee on how/when to schedule theother special TCs closed
14:40:42 <bglimm> LeeF: Do you know about 252?
14:40:45 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-252
14:40:45 <trackbot> ACTION-252 Incorporate explaining wording plus example to editor's draft closed
14:40:47 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-253
14:40:47 <trackbot> ACTION-253 Change networked RDF knowledge to RDF knowledge closed
14:40:55 <bglimm> Chime: I added the example, done. 253 also done
14:41:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-256
14:41:05 <trackbot> ACTION-256 Work out within 2 weeks closed
14:41:19 <bglimm> LeeF: We have a newer action for what 256 is about
14:41:52 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-258
14:41:52 <trackbot> ACTION-258 Summarize which queries are legal and not in terms of expressions in GROUP BY and expressions in the SELECT clause that deal with group by keys and with aggregators closed
14:41:52 <bglimm> LeeF: 258 is done I think
14:42:15 <bglimm> LeeF: Chime, is 264 done?
14:42:23 <bglimm> Chime: We did that
14:42:25 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-264
14:42:25 <trackbot> ACTION-264 Draft response to KK-1 summarising our internal discussions and changes in the doc. closed
14:42:38 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-269
14:42:38 <trackbot> ACTION-269 Put Aggr test cases in manifest format inside CVS closed
14:42:44 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-270
14:42:44 <trackbot> ACTION-270 Put subqueries, prop paths, project espressions test cases in manifest format and add to CVS closed
14:43:02 <bglimm> LeeF: Paul, do we have any update test cases?
14:43:17 <bglimm> Paul: No, not yet. I'll do something this week
14:43:23 <bglimm> LeeF: I'll leave it open
14:43:43 <bglimm> LeeF: Matt also was supposed to add some tests
14:43:53 <bglimm> MattPerry: I added some
14:44:06 <bglimm> LeeF: I keep the action open anyway
14:44:27 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-278
14:44:27 <trackbot> ACTION-278 Write-up ARQ treatment of LET closed
14:44:28 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-279
14:44:28 <trackbot> ACTION-279 Write-up Mulgara treatment of LET closed
14:44:37 <bglimm> LeeF: 278 and 279 are both done
14:45:00 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to mark group_concat and projexp tests as approved
14:45:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-308 - Mark group_concat and projexp tests as approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-09-14].
14:45:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-281
14:45:22 <trackbot> ACTION-281 Summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it closed
14:45:29 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 281 seems done
14:46:14 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 285, Paul do you know the status
14:46:56 <bglimm> pgearon: I remember the action, but I don't think I completed it
14:48:04 <bglimm> LeeF: 293, is that done Chime?
14:48:09 <bglimm> Chime: No
14:48:25 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-294
14:48:25 <trackbot> ACTION-294 Add a statement reflecting TL-1 point 1) in the http-rdf-update closed
14:48:27 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-295
14:48:27 <trackbot> ACTION-295 Draft response for TL-1 closed
14:49:18 <bglimm> LeeF: We closed many, but still have some open
14:49:31 <bglimm> ... any other topics to discuss?
14:49:57 <SteveH> appologies for next 2 weeks BTW
14:50:06 <bglimm> .... I want to get through the assignment issues next week or the week after
14:50:16 <bglimm> ... Will try and create test cases for that
14:50:29 <bglimm> LeeF: adjourned
14:50:32 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:50:32 <ivan> zakim, drop me
14:50:33 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
14:50:33 <Zakim> -Ivan
14:50:34 <Nicholas> bye!
14:50:34 <Zakim> -MattPerry
14:50:35 <Zakim> -SteveH__
14:50:37 <Zakim> -kasei
14:50:37 <Zakim> -LeeF
14:50:39 <Zakim> -Nicholas
14:50:39 <Zakim> -pgearon
14:50:41 <bglimm> rrsagent, make logs world