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13:51:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:51:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-sparql-irc 13:51:45 <bglimm> Zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:51:45 <Zakim> ok, bglimm; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 13:52:08 <bglimm> Scribe: Birte Glimm 13:52:14 <bglimm> ScribeNick: bglimm 13:52:25 <bglimm> Chair: LeeF 13:52:55 <bglimm> Meeting: SPARQL 13:53:04 <kasei_> kasei_ has joined #sparql 13:53:17 <bglimm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-09-07 13:54:34 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:54:40 <Zakim> +bglimm 13:55:55 <ivan> ivan has joined #sparql 13:56:15 <bglimm> Regrets: Souripriya Das, Andy Seaborne 13:56:36 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #sparql 13:57:04 <LeeF> Regrets+ AxelPolleres 13:57:38 <Zakim> +kasei 13:57:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 13:57:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 13:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan 13:57:52 <Zakim> +mischa 13:58:00 <SteveH__> Zakim, mischa is [Garlik] 13:58:02 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it 13:58:12 <SteveH__> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me 13:58:12 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it 13:58:45 <Zakim> +LeeF 13:58:59 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby 13:59:21 <SteveH__> bglimm, I moved from wired to wireless nw 13:59:43 <Zakim> +??P10 13:59:43 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql 13:59:45 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?P10 is me 13:59:45 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P10' 14:00:00 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P10 is me 14:00:00 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it 14:00:23 <Nicholas> Nicholas has joined #sparql 14:00:50 <Zakim> +MattPerry 14:01:02 <LeeF> topic: Admin 14:01:07 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-08-31 14:02:03 <Zakim> +Sandro 14:02:07 <Zakim> -AlexPassant 14:02:27 <Zakim> +??P21 14:02:32 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-08-31 14:02:41 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-09-14 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EDT (scribe: Axel Polleres ) 14:02:54 <bglimm> LeeF: next meeting, as usual (Tue 14th) 14:03:09 <sandro> regrets next week 14:03:12 <ivan> I may be at risk 14:03:15 <LeeF> zakim, ??P21 is Nicholas 14:03:15 <Zakim> +Nicholas; got it 14:03:42 <LeeF> topic: JSON Results Format 14:03:47 <bglimm> Topic: JSON results format 14:04:03 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-json-res/ 14:04:17 <bglimm> LeeF: First WG published this doc as a WG note 14:04:39 <Zakim> +??P26 14:04:41 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P26 is me 14:04:44 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it 14:04:44 <bglimm> ... contains a JSON version of the standard XML results format 14:05:13 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql 14:05:24 <bglimm> ... didn't go through the normal standardisation process since it is a note (no implementations required for example) 14:05:44 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode? 14:05:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+126.96.36.199.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie 14:05:49 <bglimm> ... seem popular in practise, several implementations 14:06:08 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:06:13 <bglimm> ... Should we publish it as real standard? 14:06:39 <bglimm> ... Would cause more work in terms of test cases, reviews, etc 14:06:44 <Nicholas> I think making JSON an offical standard is really important 14:06:56 <kasei_> +1 (would also like to see jsonp support) 14:07:02 <SteveH> +0.5 14:07:05 <bglimm> ... I would like to hear opinions about this 14:07:06 <Nicholas> will really help adoption 14:07:14 <sandro> +0.5 14:07:22 <bglimm> Nicholas: We use JSON a lot at BBC 14:07:38 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me 14:07:38 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted 14:07:38 <bglimm> ... easy to parse, many developers know it, would help adoption of SPARQL 14:07:39 <chimezie> +1 14:07:57 <SteveH> yes, terrified of toppling over 14:07:59 <ivan> q+ 14:08:00 <SteveH> :) 14:08:02 <sandro> yes, that's why I didnt say "+1" 14:08:13 <AlexPassant> never used XML/SPARQL and works only w/ JSON, so also happy to have it as a rec 14:08:14 <bglimm> LeeF: I see a lot of support on IRC. Is anybody worried about this additional burden? 14:08:22 <bglimm> IvanH: Do we have editors? 14:08:33 <Zakim> +pgearon 14:08:44 <bglimm> LeeF: The doc does not need much work, we could keep the note editors 14:08:44 <pgearon> apologies for tardy arrival 14:08:54 <pgearon> muted 14:09:36 <bglimm> IvanH: Before making a decision, we should make sure we have editors who take responsibility for the document and the work this will cause. 14:09:52 <bglimm> ... We might want to look at this when other docs are in LC. 14:10:28 <ivan> q? 14:10:36 <bglimm> LeeF: I wouldn't make a decision before we have editors, but I want to see how much support this would have. 14:10:37 <LeeF> ack ivan 14:11:12 <bglimm> IvanH: We have the questionnaire for next steps for RDF and we might have a JSON format for RDF 14:11:45 <AlexPassant> would also require a return format for Update (simple 'success' / 'failure' pattern) 14:12:06 <pgearon> I think that JSON is possibly more used than XML is at the moment 14:12:13 <bglimm> ... The current JSON for SPARQL format does not cover constructs, but could possibly be combined with the JSON for RDF and cover costructs this way 14:12:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to work with Axel to identify potential editor(s) to shepherd through JSON document on Rec track 14:12:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-306 - Work with Axel to identify potential editor(s) to shepherd through JSON document on Rec track [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-09-14]. 14:12:46 <bglimm> LeeF: If anybody is interested in an editorial role for this please contact me and/or Axel 14:12:58 <bglimm> Topic: Test Cases 14:13:17 <bglimm> LeeF: We can hopefully approve some more test case sets 14:13:25 <LeeF> group_concat test cases: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0272.html 14:13:30 <bglimm> ... some from greg for GROUP_CONCAT 14:14:08 <bglimm> ... there are two plus one from a later date 14:14:39 <LeeF> agg-groupconcat-1 14:14:43 <LeeF> agg-groupconcat-2 14:14:48 <bglimm> ... AndyS reported that ARQ passes the two older ones 14:14:55 <kasei_> I think the third duplicates the first, but also adds the separator. 14:15:06 <kasei_> I pass them 14:16:01 <bglimm> LeeF: The difference between the first and the third is that the third uses a non-default separator 14:16:37 <bglimm> ... Since the order of the rows in an aggregate is not specified, you can get multiple strings 14:17:22 <bglimm> ... Greg used a FILTER to test for the possible orders, useful way of abstracting from the fact that we need implicitly have an order 14:17:25 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve tests agg-groupconcat-1, agg-groupconcat-2, and agg-groupconcat-3 14:17:57 <kasei_> +1 14:17:57 <pgearon> Seconded 14:18:42 <bglimm> SteveH: You want to abstain as for past test cases? 14:18:48 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve tests agg-groupconcat-1, agg-groupconcat-2, and agg-groupconcat-3 14:18:53 <bglimm> SteveH: I'll check them later 14:19:23 <LeeF> project expression tests: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/project-expression/ 14:19:24 <bglimm> LeeF: We have 7 tests for project expressions 14:19:28 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 14:19:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see bglimm, kasei, SteveH, Ivan, LeeF, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Sandro, Nicholas, AlexPassant, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), pgearon 14:19:52 <bglimm> OlivierCorby: I created these tests 14:19:56 <LeeF> Andy - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0302.html - ARQ passes all 7 14:20:13 <bglimm> LeeF: AndyS reported that ARQ passes these 7 tests 14:21:07 <bglimm> kasei: Are these the test with * in addition to variable lists? 14:21:16 <bglimm> OlivierCorby: I corrected that. 14:21:26 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve tests projexp01 - projexp07 14:21:40 <bglimm> kasei: My system passes these tests 14:21:45 <kasei_> +1 14:21:57 <bglimm> LeeF: Any objections, abstains? 14:22:01 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve tests projexp01 - projexp07 14:22:35 <bglimm> LeeF: Axel suggested some tests for entailments 14:23:04 <LeeF> entailment test cases: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0313.html 14:23:18 <LeeF> bglimm: Axel's question was whether the surrogate blank nodes introduced should be returned 14:23:24 <LeeF> bglimm: ...and the answer is "no" 14:23:49 <bglimm> LeeF: Is that in CVS? 14:23:58 <bglimm> bglimm: I am not sure whether Axel added this. 14:24:10 <bglimm> bglimm: I will add this 14:24:33 <LeeF> ACTION: Birte to add Axel's two surrogate blank node test cases to CVS 14:24:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-307 - Add Axel's two surrogate blank node test cases to CVS [on Birte Glimm - due 2010-09-14]. 14:25:11 <bglimm> LeeF: There were discussions about SPARQL Update, triggered by Andy's review 14:25:29 <bglimm> ... Is that just rewording or is tehre anything we need to discuss 14:25:49 <bglimm> AlexPassant: It is some rewording and some details for the formal update model 14:26:04 <bglimm> ... we will finish the formal model by the end of the week and get another review then 14:26:22 <bglimm> ... I have not yet checked what was identified as issues 14:26:51 <bglimm> LeeF: I am interested in the model and I can check it once it is finalized 14:27:03 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql 14:27:04 <bglimm> ... Any other comments? 14:27:11 <pgearon_> pgearon_ has joined #sparql 14:27:11 <bglimm> Topic: Open Actions 14:27:31 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open 14:27:40 <bglimm> LeeF: Whoever has open actions, please check them and let's try to close some 14:28:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-77 14:28:22 <trackbot> ACTION-77 Investigate ISSUE-33 closed 14:28:30 <bglimm> ... The first is mine, and became a non-issue because we have only few update actions 14:28:34 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me 14:28:34 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted 14:28:39 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-116 14:28:39 <trackbot> ACTION-116 Address the concerns in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0024.html closed 14:28:47 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby 14:28:48 <bglimm> The second one is actually completed by Chime 14:29:08 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-130 14:29:08 <trackbot> ACTION-130 Summarize 4 options relating to grouping by expressions on the mailing list and solicit information on what existing implementations do closed 14:29:12 <bglimm> Action 130 seems completed since we had iscussions 14:29:12 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 130 14:29:31 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-132 14:29:31 <trackbot> ACTION-132 Make sure algebra has some position on what aggregate functions are & do (w.r.t. expressions by reference) closed 14:29:33 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby 14:29:43 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 132 on Steve is about the algebra and how aggregates fit in 14:29:55 <bglimm> SteveH: Completed 14:29:56 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me 14:29:56 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted 14:30:19 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-179 14:30:19 <trackbot> ACTION-179 start an email thread about fregments of propertypaths that could be dealt with in SQL closed 14:30:29 <bglimm> Matt: Action 179 is completed 14:30:47 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 184 on Orri tha 14:30:59 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me 14:30:59 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted 14:31:03 <bglimm> ... that still needs o be addressed 14:31:26 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-194 14:31:26 <trackbot> ACTION-194 Collect testcases for negation closed 14:31:38 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-199 14:31:38 <trackbot> ACTION-199 Collect test cases for entailment closed 14:32:31 <bglimm> SteveH: I haven't done Action 200 14:33:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-205 14:33:05 <trackbot> Sorry... closing ACTION-205 failed, please let sysreq know about it 14:33:47 <bglimm> LeeF: I am not sure about 209 14:33:55 <Zakim> -Sandro 14:34:13 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-205 14:34:13 <trackbot> Sorry... closing ACTION-205 failed, please let sysreq know about it 14:34:47 <bglimm> Sandro has an action to work with greg on SD with multiple graphs 14:35:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-213 14:35:05 <trackbot> ACTION-213 Work with Greg on an example to investigate what happens when multiple descriptions of the same graph are merged together closed 14:35:29 <bglimm> kasei: I think we we are fine, we had some discussions, but Sandro had still some concerns recently 14:35:53 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-220 14:35:53 <trackbot> ACTION-220 Review the federated query document at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service closed 14:36:03 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 220 is no longer relevant 14:36:17 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-221 14:36:17 <trackbot> ACTION-221 Reformulate Condition 4 closed 14:36:33 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-222 14:36:33 <trackbot> ACTION-222 Propose rewordings on mailinglist on http-protocol which clarify ISSUE-49 closed 14:36:59 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-223 14:36:59 <trackbot> ACTION-223 Look over http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/README.html closed 14:37:06 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-224 14:37:06 <trackbot> ACTION-224 Check with editors what's the status of docs wrt. publication schedule closed 14:37:19 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-226 14:37:19 <trackbot> ACTION-226 Come up with a proposed re-schedule and suggestion on how to proceed until Rec closed 14:37:42 <bglimm> LeeF: Chime, do you know about Action 227? 14:37:55 <bglimm> Chime: I don't know enough 14:38:00 <bglimm> LeeF: Let's keep it open 14:38:14 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-230 14:38:14 <trackbot> ACTION-230 Review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness closed 14:38:15 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-232 14:38:15 <trackbot> ACTION-232 Review Service Description document closed 14:38:26 <bglimm> LeeF: 230 and 232 are old 14:38:41 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-242 14:38:41 <trackbot> ACTION-242 Update Section 7 to reflect relaxed finiteness conditions for BGP matching extension. closed 14:38:42 <bglimm> ... 242, Chime is that done? 14:38:47 <bglimm> Chime: Yes, that's old 14:38:58 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-243 14:38:58 <trackbot> ACTION-243 Review changes on Section 7. closed 14:39:07 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-244 14:39:07 <trackbot> ACTION-244 Collect http-protocol issues and mail to list, others respond if you see anything missing closed 14:39:14 <bglimm> LeeF: 244 is done 14:39:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-246 14:39:22 <trackbot> ACTION-246 Check/approve final version of update closed 14:39:26 <bglimm> ... 246 is old too 14:39:57 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-247 14:39:57 <trackbot> ACTION-247 Give examples that highlight possible ambiguities in the resolutions from last f2f concerning ISSUE-16 closed 14:39:57 <bglimm> LeeF: Is 247 done? 14:40:03 <bglimm> SteveH: Yes 14:40:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-249 14:40:05 <trackbot> ACTION-249 Check back with Lee on how/when to schedule theother special TCs closed 14:40:42 <bglimm> LeeF: Do you know about 252? 14:40:45 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-252 14:40:45 <trackbot> ACTION-252 Incorporate explaining wording plus example to editor's draft closed 14:40:47 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-253 14:40:47 <trackbot> ACTION-253 Change networked RDF knowledge to RDF knowledge closed 14:40:55 <bglimm> Chime: I added the example, done. 253 also done 14:41:05 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-256 14:41:05 <trackbot> ACTION-256 Work out http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary within 2 weeks closed 14:41:19 <bglimm> LeeF: We have a newer action for what 256 is about 14:41:52 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-258 14:41:52 <trackbot> ACTION-258 Summarize which queries are legal and not in terms of expressions in GROUP BY and expressions in the SELECT clause that deal with group by keys and with aggregators closed 14:41:52 <bglimm> LeeF: 258 is done I think 14:42:15 <bglimm> LeeF: Chime, is 264 done? 14:42:23 <bglimm> Chime: We did that 14:42:25 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-264 14:42:25 <trackbot> ACTION-264 Draft response to KK-1 summarising our internal discussions and changes in the doc. closed 14:42:38 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-269 14:42:38 <trackbot> ACTION-269 Put Aggr test cases in manifest format inside CVS closed 14:42:44 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-270 14:42:44 <trackbot> ACTION-270 Put subqueries, prop paths, project espressions test cases in manifest format and add to CVS closed 14:43:02 <bglimm> LeeF: Paul, do we have any update test cases? 14:43:17 <bglimm> Paul: No, not yet. I'll do something this week 14:43:23 <bglimm> LeeF: I'll leave it open 14:43:43 <bglimm> LeeF: Matt also was supposed to add some tests 14:43:53 <bglimm> MattPerry: I added some 14:44:06 <bglimm> LeeF: I keep the action open anyway 14:44:27 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-278 14:44:27 <trackbot> ACTION-278 Write-up ARQ treatment of LET closed 14:44:28 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-279 14:44:28 <trackbot> ACTION-279 Write-up Mulgara treatment of LET closed 14:44:37 <bglimm> LeeF: 278 and 279 are both done 14:45:00 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to mark group_concat and projexp tests as approved 14:45:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-308 - Mark group_concat and projexp tests as approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-09-14]. 14:45:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-281 14:45:22 <trackbot> ACTION-281 Summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it closed 14:45:29 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 281 seems done 14:46:14 <bglimm> LeeF: Action 285, Paul do you know the status 14:46:56 <bglimm> pgearon: I remember the action, but I don't think I completed it 14:48:04 <bglimm> LeeF: 293, is that done Chime? 14:48:09 <bglimm> Chime: No 14:48:25 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-294 14:48:25 <trackbot> ACTION-294 Add a statement reflecting TL-1 point 1) in the http-rdf-update closed 14:48:27 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-295 14:48:27 <trackbot> ACTION-295 Draft response for TL-1 closed 14:49:18 <bglimm> LeeF: We closed many, but still have some open 14:49:31 <bglimm> ... any other topics to discuss? 14:49:57 <SteveH> appologies for next 2 weeks BTW 14:50:06 <bglimm> .... I want to get through the assignment issues next week or the week after 14:50:16 <bglimm> ... Will try and create test cases for that 14:50:29 <bglimm> LeeF: adjourned 14:50:32 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:50:32 <ivan> zakim, drop me 14:50:33 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 14:50:33 <Zakim> -Ivan 14:50:34 <Nicholas> bye! 14:50:34 <Zakim> -MattPerry 14:50:35 <Zakim> -SteveH__ 14:50:37 <Zakim> -kasei 14:50:37 <Zakim> -LeeF 14:50:39 <Zakim> -Nicholas 14:50:39 <Zakim> -pgearon 14:50:41 <bglimm> rrsagent, make logs world # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000300