Chatlog 2010-07-20

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13:54:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:54:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-sparql-irc
13:54:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:55:03 <sandro> zakim, this will be sparql
13:55:05 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:57:29 <kasei> sandro, did you have thoughts on my sd:name followup email?
13:58:35 <AndyS> Problems with zakim?  I get junk sounds back when I dial in.
13:58:38 <sandro> yes, kasei but I didn't finish sending them.  :-(
13:58:42 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:58:45 <kasei> ok
13:59:07 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
13:59:17 <sandro> short version: those aren't problems -- I stand by my proposal.
13:59:27 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:28 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:59:35 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa
13:59:40 <Zakim> +Sandro
13:59:42 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaaa
13:59:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:00:00 <kasei> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:00:00 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
14:00:04 <bglimm> I also get all circuitsare busy now when calling
14:00:13 <Zakim> +pgearon
14:00:23 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aabb
14:00:23 <NicholasH> NicholasH has joined #sparql
14:00:24 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
14:00:25 <sandro> AndyS, bglimm -- are you using the UK number or the US number?
14:00:26 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
14:00:30 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
14:00:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
14:00:31 <MattPerry> zakim, aacc is me
14:00:32 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:00:34 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:00:35 <kasei> ack [IPcaller]
14:00:41 <bglimm> I am trying the new UK number
14:00:47 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aabb is me
14:00:47 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:00:55 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres
14:00:55 <sandro> I know the france number was not working yesterday.  :-(
14:01:02 <AndyS> I get invalid UK number
14:01:22 <bglimm> I am trying France now
14:01:35 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:01:35 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:01:37 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:01:50 <bglimm> Zakim, passcode
14:01:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', bglimm
14:02:04 <sandro> Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
14:02:13 <AxelPolleres> andy, did you use the new number?
14:02:13 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aadd
14:02:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:22 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aadd is me
14:02:22 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:02:26 <AndyS> Yes - used the new number.
14:02:28 <bglimm> France worked now
14:02:34 <bglimm> UK doesn't
14:02:49 <AndyS> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:02:49 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:02:54 <kasei> Zakim, who is talking?
14:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
14:02:57 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:02:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:03:05 <Zakim> kasei, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (38%), MattPerry (10%), AndyS (42%), Ivan (15%)
14:03:08 <sandro> I hear: <amy> i believe that the new zakim # is limited to a smaller number it can handle at a time.  people should keep trying slowly 
14:03:12 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:03:12 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:03:15 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:03:19 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:03:25 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:03:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie
14:03:34 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS, +1.603.897.aaee
14:03:58 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:04:10 <NicholasH> NicholasH has joined #sparql
14:04:40 <AxelPolleres> nick, do you plan to dial in, can you scribe?
14:04:56 <NicholasH> yeah, tryiing to dial in, but the UK number isn't working for me
14:05:06 <AxelPolleres> scribe: ChimezieOgbuji
14:05:13 <AxelPolleres> chair: AxelPolleres
14:05:17 <NicholasH> and had to kick someone out of the room I booked :(
14:05:21 <AxelPolleres> regrets: AlexandrePassant
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin
14:05:35 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-07-20
14:05:56 <chimezie> Axel: back from vacation, still catching up
14:06:16 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13
14:06:34 <LeeF> look good to me
14:06:35 <AndyS> seconded
14:06:36 <NicholasH> UK number: "all circuits are busy now"
14:06:40 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13
14:07:03 <AxelPolleres> nick, can you scribe next week?
14:07:05 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me
14:07:05 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:07:38 <chimezie> Axel: have new numbers, both should work but there are issues with UK numbers
14:07:46 <chimezie> Sandro: may just be slow
14:07:49 <bglimm> I can try dialing in again now
14:08:12 <chimezie> AndyS: got an invalid number response
14:08:13 <bglimm> I just had busy circuit
14:08:25 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:08:40 <kasei> regrets for next week, will be traveling
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: update model TC
14:09:04 <chimezie> Axel: need dedicated telecon for update model
14:09:14 <chimezie> ... Lee sent around link to doodle poll
14:09:17 <AxelPolleres> doodle poll for update TC http://doodle.com/f83f6fe3e8g4gm5u
14:09:20 <Zakim> +bglimm
14:09:30 <bglimm> UK still does not work: busy circuits
14:09:56 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:09:56 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:10:25 <kasei> I'm interested in the TC, but if it's an issue of getting everyone together, I don't need to be there (as I listed quite a few days of unavailability)
14:11:34 <AxelPolleres> let's fix Fri 30th July 4pm UK time, 11am Eastern time
14:11:47 <sandro> (midnight in Japan. :-)
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: approval of test cases
14:12:51 <LeeF> Andy ran them successfully, I've looked at them and am happy with them.
14:13:02 <LeeF> We accepted 1-4
14:13:05 <LeeF> so 5-10
14:13:10 <Zakim> +??P5
14:13:23 <chimezie> AndyS: I execute them and get the right answers
14:13:29 <NicholasH> Zakim, ??P5 is me
14:13:29 <Zakim> +NicholasH; got it
14:13:40 <chimezie> ... tests have separate meanings now we moved things around
14:13:45 <chimezie> Axel: Okay to approve?
14:13:47 <kasei> +1
14:13:52 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve subquery test cases 5-10
14:14:05 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:14:05 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:14:06 <LeeF> SteveH abstains
14:14:12 <LeeF> (based on last week)
14:14:28 <AndyS> who else has executed them?
14:14:38 <LeeF> No one, as far as I know.
14:14:43 <LeeF> No
14:14:54 <AndyS> +1
14:15:36 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve subquery test cases 5-10
14:16:08 <AndyS> Thanks go to Olivier for creating the tests
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: issues on graph names in service description 
14:16:19 <AxelPolleres> issues on graph names in service description http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0024.html
14:16:46 <chimezie> Axel: there is some confusion WRT graph names when there are same as statements
14:17:00 <chimezie> kasei: there is agreement that it is a non issue
14:17:09 <chimezie> Sandro: issues are not about same as
14:17:16 <LeeF> modelling issue
14:17:21 <chimezie> kasei: disagreement on modeling WRT naming
14:17:35 <LeeF> I think I agree with Greg - because of cases of things like having statistics about the graph in the context of a particular endpoint
14:17:48 <chimezie> Sandro: my issue is that current model says there is a named graph, with a name, and the name of the graph is the graph itself
14:18:04 <chimezie> kasei: wording in current query document, has that sentence
14:18:47 <chimezie> Sandro: A URI has to be in quotes to be a name for a graph, pointy brackets are what they denote (<..> v.s. "..")
14:19:48 <chimezie> ... URI of graph and what it denotes is not the issue here.  names are strings not things in domain of discourse
14:20:06 <AxelPolleres> what'd be the issue with using xsd:anyURI literals as range?
14:20:39 <AndyS> The named graph paper says the named graph is the pair (name, graph) not the graph.
14:20:47 <chimezie> Sandro: no builtin in SPARQL to help with this
14:21:01 <kasei> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0046.html
14:21:48 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0036.html
14:22:12 <sandro>    [] a sd:Dataset ;
14:22:12 <sandro>            sd:namedGraph <http://www.example/named-graph>.
14:23:38 <chimezie> i'm not sure why using xsd:AnyUri isn't appropriate, seems to address the problem directly
14:24:24 <chimezie> kasei: what about entailment? Sandro suggested that whenever a service had entailment on a named graph it should have a different name with the same underlying graph
14:24:43 <chimezie> Sandro: entailment is a relationship between graphs that should have different URIs
14:24:58 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:24:58 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:25:05 <bglimm> q+
14:25:06 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:25:08 <kasei> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } }
14:26:15 <AndyS> Entailment is not a property of the graph deferred by <http://www.example/named-graph>
14:26:30 <chimezie> bglimm: can't follow discussion, not sure what the problem is.  Why need new name for <a>?
14:26:36 <LeeF> I still don't think that entailment is the only case where the same graph might have different properties in the context of different endpoints
14:26:52 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:26:53 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:27:03 <AndyS> q+
14:27:05 <LeeF> access statistics, access control, ...
14:27:10 <ivan> ack bglimm 
14:27:13 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:27:35 <AxelPolleres> in which graph is <a> sameAs <b> ?
14:27:39 <chimezie> I don't see the problem either
14:28:49 <chimezie> ... lots of conversation about clarifying entailment and graph identity ...
14:29:42 <AxelPolleres> any's on the q ...
14:29:48 <bglimm> ack me
14:30:17 <chimezie> AndyS: 2 things.  on SW when you deref URI you get data back involving sameAs assertions, how you treat them is a decision on the person pulling data in
14:30:25 <chimezie> ... not a property of the graph (a declarative structure)
14:30:48 <chimezie> ... there is no 'graph' with entailment
14:31:22 <bglimm> for OWL there is not one graph with entailment, you just cannot build one graph that captures all entailments
14:31:29 <AxelPolleres> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } }
14:31:37 <chimezie> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } } -> [] , right?
14:33:02 <chimezie> Sandro: RDF graph a contains RDFS statements (subClassOf statements) 
14:33:06 <sandro> <a> subclassof <b>.   <b> subclass <c>.
14:33:18 <AxelPolleres> <g1>
14:33:26 <sandro>  g1 is { <a> subclassof <b>.   <b> subclass <c>. }
14:35:01 <chimezie> Sandro: N3 has a different notion of graph.  SPARQL notion of named graph is what i mean here
14:35:31 <AxelPolleres> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ... } } -> [] ?
14:35:38 <sandro>   g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>.   <b> subclassof <c>.  <a> subclassof <c>  }     
14:36:01 <sandro>   g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>.   <b> subclassof <c>.  <a> subclassof <c>.   ...  }     
14:36:02 <kasei> infinite triples...
14:36:30 <ivan> question, what is  SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g1> { ?x subclass ?y }} with RDFS semantics turned on?
14:36:40 <LeeF> g2 is definitely not in the dataset there
14:36:59 <AxelPolleres> the dataset is explicitly specified by FRPOM/FROM NAMED
14:37:01 <LeeF> dataset definition in SPARQL is closed world :)
14:37:12 <Souri> We do distinguish between a graph vs the entailed versions of that graph because a graph can be entailed with different entailment regimes. The way we do that is to allow an extra argument that specifies the entailment regime(s) being used.
14:37:23 <ivan> q+
14:37:26 <LeeF> Souri, do you give it a different URI?
14:37:26 <AndyS> query is closed world ... it has to stop sometime :-)
14:37:31 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:37:33 <AndyS> q-
14:38:54 <LeeF> ack ivan
14:39:37 <Souri> No, we do not give it a different name, but we associate an "attachment" that includes entailment regime(s) and the combination of the query plus the attachment is sent over to Oracle DB.
14:39:42 <AndyS> """the relationship between an IRI and a graph in an RDF dataset is indirect."""
14:40:14 <chimezie> There is conflation about what is in the graph (syntactically) and what is entailed (which is about what follows from the axioms, etc..)
14:40:49 <AndyS> q+ to note there isn't always one entailed graph
14:40:52 <bglimm> RDF Semantics also defines entailment between graphs and not entailment between a premise and a conclusion
14:41:00 <chimezie> thinking about entailment as a relationship between two materialized graphs, is a misunderstanding of entailment
14:41:08 <bglimm> we just don't do sub-graph matching any more
14:41:21 <ivan> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2>  } is what one is considers...
14:41:24 <Souri> We have been exploring a way to include the entailment regime(s) with standard graph names. So, for example FROM NAMED <g1> FROM NAMED orardf:rdfs ...
14:44:00 <Souri> mega-graph == entailed graph?
14:44:15 <Souri> q+
14:44:28 <AndyS> q-
14:44:41 <bglimm> mega-graph for logicians is a canonical model, but that might not help here ;-) entailed graph if there were only one entailed graph
14:44:46 <chimezie> <a> subclassof <c> is not *in* (syntactically) <g1> but it is *entailed* by <g1> WRT RDFS
14:45:07 <AxelPolleres> I'd rather say that the relationship between gragph and entailment regime is not direct...
14:45:25 <chimezie> in and entailed are orthogonal relationships
14:46:44 <bglimm> If we were strictly sticking to non-disjunctive formalisms, we could define everything in terms of deductive closures, but then OWL is out forever
14:46:51 <LeeF> ack Souri
14:47:10 <chimezie> Souri: have had difficulty in not specifying entailment regime
14:47:29 <ivan> q+
14:47:34 <sandro> YES.   Changing the language to add an entailment parameter, as Souri says, would be much clearer
14:47:52 <AxelPolleres> hmmm, this sounds like picking up parameterized entailment, but we ruled this out in the beginning
14:47:53 <chimezie> ... we thought of ways to guarantee to user that with certain arguments, results will match
14:47:58 <AndyS> Jena currently requires different names for same graph (graph=value) under different entailment regimes.
14:48:04 <chimezie> ... will not be specified arbitrarily
14:48:19 <bglimm> I would also like to be able to specify the regime in the query and not fixed per endpoint
14:48:26 <chimezie> I agree, this is a big hole we have with entailment regime usage, that we have punted on
14:48:29 <bglimm> but I thought it is out of scope
14:49:00 <chimezie> Souri: we can use standard names to specify entailment regime within query
14:49:02 <sandro> souri: we explored FROM NAME [some std name for OWL-entailment]
14:49:08 <LeeF> Yes, it is something we discussed last year and did not make the scope of our work.
14:49:38 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference
14:49:45 <AxelPolleres> oracle does it with prefix... i.e. has some naming convention for inference.
14:50:03 <chimezie> last, I checked the thread ended here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0051.html
14:50:48 <sandro> q?
14:50:49 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to mark subquery tests 5-10 approved
14:50:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-280 - Mark subquery tests 5-10 approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-07-27].
14:50:53 <chimezie> Axel: we now have a definition of an entailment regime but not how to reference it explicitely
14:51:03 <chimezie> ... we are drifting away from original question
14:51:04 <AndyS> Isn't this the role of service description now?  
14:51:21 <sandro> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } }
14:51:26 <chimezie> not sufficient, to allow the user to specify semantics of the query
14:51:33 <AndyS> To do the *query* (algebra) under entailment, is not the same as BGPs under entailment.
14:51:52 <chimezie> Axel: we are risking scope creep
14:51:54 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:51:57 <LeeF> ack ivan
14:52:02 <ivan> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2>  }
14:52:06 <chimezie> Ivan: respectfully disagree
14:52:17 <AndyS>  Curious: Why not SELECT * FROM NAMED <g2> { ... } ?
14:52:37 <chimezie> ... be explicit about forming graph via entailment and referring to it
14:52:53 <kasei> AndyS, the whole point was my concern about impls that dereference g1 to construct the dataset
14:52:57 <bglimm> I also wonder that AndyS
14:53:27 <AxelPolleres> this looks like a new feature, which we haven't got on board....
14:53:36 <chimezie> Ivan: it is a new SPARQl property, but the issue raised by Sandro can be addressed this way
14:53:57 <chimezie> ... either there in query or in service description 
14:53:59 <AndyS> kasei, sure - they get the (base) triples - impl can choose to understand the consequences or not. 
14:54:18 <kasei> q+
14:54:52 <chimezie> kasei: putting it in SD won't always be enough for impl that dereference graphs to construct dataset
14:55:18 <chimezie> Sandro: so don't support FROM NAMED entailment or add a keyword
14:56:11 <kasei> I very much disagree with this "lying" notion
14:56:18 <LeeF> Does anyone implement anything like this?
14:56:31 <LeeF> Or, rather, who implements things like this?
14:56:45 <kasei> LeeF, I deref URIs for datasets, and have experimental RDFS stuff that would run afoul of this
14:56:51 <bglimm> As I understood Souri, Oracle is doing that
14:57:10 <chimezie> Axel: need to follow up on email, perhaps
14:57:12 <AndyS> "like" via different names in dataset but not via query syntax. Expected SD to describe the endpoint characteristics.
14:57:26 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:57:26 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:57:54 <Souri> Yes, we do allow user to specify entailment regime(s) in the query
14:58:15 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: sandro to summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it
14:58:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-281 - Summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27].
14:58:35 <sandro> ACTION: sandro to take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } }
14:58:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-282 - Take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } } [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27].
14:58:43 <kasei> briefly wanted to mention that I have a draft response to PA-2 at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:PA-2
14:59:05 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:59:05 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:59:14 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to mail a list of open issues and perceived status
14:59:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-283 - Mail a list of open issues and perceived status [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-07-27].
14:59:32 <Zakim> -MattPerry
14:59:37 <bglimm> bye
14:59:37 <Zakim> -Souri
14:59:39 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:59:40 <Zakim> -Sandro
14:59:41 <NicholasH> bye!
14:59:42 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
14:59:43 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
14:59:43 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:59:44 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:59:50 <Zakim> -kasei
14:59:54 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:59:55 <ivan> zakim, drop me
14:59:55 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
14:59:56 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:00:09 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:00:16 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:01:02 <kasei> current grammar doesn't allow selecing * along with other vars/expressions, right?
15:01:13 <AndyS> right :-)
15:01:34 <kasei> ok. maybe I'll fix the test cases that do that, then...
15:01:43 <AndyS> Silly grammar.
15:01:44 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:01:45 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:01:46 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.603.897.aaaa, Sandro, kasei, pgearon, +33.4.92.38.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS,
15:01:48 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri, NicholasH
15:01:59 <kasei> silly? is it going to change?
15:02:27 <AndyS> I proposed such a change.  Steve is against it.
15:02:52 <kasei> ah
15:03:42 <kasei> probably shouldn't change anything just yet, then.
15:04:06 <AndyS> I confess I don't see the problem as it's SQL rel alg feature commonly called "extend".
15:04:57 <AndyS> rel alg "rename" does not (strictly) take an expression.
15:21:00 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
15:21:20 <SteveH_> sorry, I wasn't able to dial in, some message about no lines free
15:32:06 <NicholasH> SteveH_: I had the same problem and had to use US number again
15:41:14 <SteveH_> I as on my mobile, so didn't want an intl call on the bill
16:03:47 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has left #sparql
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