Chatlog 2010-04-20

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13:57:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:57:38 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:57:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:57:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:57:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:57:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:43 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:57:43 <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2010
13:57:53 <LeeF> Agenda:
13:58:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:16 <Zakim> + +03539149aaaa
13:58:56 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:56 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
13:59:01 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
13:59:02 <kasei> heh
13:59:06 <Zakim> + +0186528aacc
13:59:07 <kasei> Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:08 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
13:59:21 <bglimm> Zakim, +0186528aacc is me
13:59:21 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
13:59:31 <Zakim> +??P14
13:59:34 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
13:59:35 <bglimm> Zakim, why don't you recognize me any more?
13:59:35 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, bglimm.
13:59:39 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P14 is me
13:59:39 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
13:59:51 <LeeF> zakim, mute me please
13:59:51 <Zakim> Lee_Feigenbaum should now be muted
13:59:59 <Zakim> + +49.238.aadd
14:00:06 <Zakim> + +0208439aaee
14:00:06 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:00:11 <LeeF> Chair: AxelPolleres
14:00:16 <Zakim> - +0208439aaee
14:00:27 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
14:00:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:00:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:00:28 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, aadd is me
14:00:29 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting
14:00:30 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:00:30 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:00:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:00:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:00:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:34 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:00:34 <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2010
14:00:35 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:00:35 <Zakim> sorry, bglimm, I don't know what conference this is
14:00:41 <LeeF> zakim, this is SPARQl
14:00:41 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:00:45 <LeeF> zakim, mute bglimm
14:00:45 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:00:46 <bglimm> Zakim, this is SPARQL
14:00:47 <Zakim> bglimm, this was already SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:00:49 <Zakim> ok, bglimm; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:00:50 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:00:56 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:00:56 <Zakim> bglimm was already muted, bglimm
14:01:10 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:01:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
14:01:10 <AxelPolleres> chime, will you be able to scribe?
14:01:13 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
14:01:13 <chimezie> yes
14:01:30 <Souri> zakim, aagg is Souri
14:01:30 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:01:43 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:01:45 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone
14:01:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', SteveH
14:01:50 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres, kasei, bglimm (muted), AndyS1, Lee_Feigenbaum (muted), OlivierCorby, Ivan, +0208439aaff, Souri, Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:01:54 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:02:08 <AxelPolleres>
14:02:12 <SteveH> Zakim, aaff is [Garlik]
14:02:12 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
14:02:13 <LeeF> zakim, who's speaking?
14:02:15 <AndyS1> zakim, AndyS1 is AndyS
14:02:15 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:02:23 <pjain> pjain has joined #SPARQL
14:02:25 <SteveH> loud typing
14:02:29 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 10 (26%), AndyS1 (53%)
14:02:29 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Chimezie Ogbuji
14:02:52 <AxelPolleres>
14:02:52 <Zakim> +??P25
14:03:13 <MattPerry> zakim, ??P25 is me
14:03:13 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:03:15 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily SteveH
14:03:17 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:03:20 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve minutes at
14:03:33 <LeeF> minutes look good to me
14:03:48 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve minutes at
14:04:15 <AxelPolleres> Next meeting: 2010-04-27 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST
14:04:26 <LeeF> my regrets for next week
14:04:34 <ivan> regrets next week
14:04:36 <chimezie> Axel: I can scribe and chair if necessary
14:04:36 <LeeF> David
14:04:40 <LeeF> Alex did last week
14:04:46 <LeeF> err, not David
14:05:01 <ivan> I hope to be at WWW (volcano willing)
14:05:02 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:05:02 <LeeF> OlivierCorby, can you scribe next week?
14:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres, kasei, bglimm (muted), AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum (muted), OlivierCorby, Ivan, SteveH, Souri, Chimezie_Ogbuji, MattPerry
14:05:38 <AxelPolleres> next time scribing Olivier
14:05:55 <AxelPolleres> topic: comments
14:05:57 <AxelPolleres>
14:06:03 <chimezie> Need to progress through comments
14:06:13 <AxelPolleres>
14:06:17 <kasei> i've tacked that onto my other NH comments.
14:06:26 <Zakim> + +1.919.332.aahh
14:06:32 <kasei> they all sort of belong together
14:06:41 <dcharbon2> dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
14:06:47 <kasei> sure
14:06:56 <dcharbon2> zakim, mute me
14:06:56 <Zakim> sorry, dcharbon2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:06:59 <AxelPolleres> greg takes care
14:07:03 <dcharbon2> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:07:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres, kasei, bglimm (muted), AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum (muted), OlivierCorby, Ivan, SteveH, Souri, Chimezie_Ogbuji, MattPerry, +1.919.332.aahh
14:07:11 <dcharbon2> zakim, aahh is me
14:07:11 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
14:07:16 <LeeF> RDB2RDF is close to publishing a UC&R document
14:07:19 <chimezie> Axel: Liasons.  Anything to report?
14:08:16 <chimezie> Souri: going over usecase, not final yet, but coming close
14:08:19 <AxelPolleres> Souri: RDB2RDF will soon have UC doc
14:08:23 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:08:23 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:08:27 <AxelPolleres> Axel: we might want to review
14:08:33 <dcharbon2> zakim, mute me
14:08:33 <Zakim> dcharbon2 should now be muted
14:08:50 <Zakim> +??P35
14:08:53 <chimezie> Axel: Wording for conditions on entailment regimes
14:09:01 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P35 is me
14:09:01 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:09:13 <AxelPolleres> topic: entailment conditions rewordings
14:09:13 <AxelPolleres>
14:09:26 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:09:38 <AxelPolleres> birte?
14:10:17 <LeeF> I was happy with the latest proposed text (per the mailing list)
14:10:19 <chimezie> Axel: 1st condition.  SG G is uniquely specified and E-equivalent to regime
14:10:39 <chimezie> ... need to be specific about graph equivalence
14:11:09 <AndyS> ?? If the bnode labels differ, OPTIONAL does not work?
14:11:25 <AxelPolleres>
14:12:11 <AxelPolleres> "uniquely" --> "uniquely up to RDF graph equivalence"
14:12:13 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:12:14 <chimezie> Axel: added 'uniquely up to RDF graph equivalence'
14:12:43 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:12:45 <chimezie> AndyS: how does this work with the rest of the algebra?
14:12:52 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:12:52 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:13:04 <chimezie> ... what about use of OPTIONAL, how do you roundtrip the blank nodes properly?
14:13:26 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:15:00 <chimezie> Axel: SG is always determined before hand 
14:15:00 <chimezie> ... so, blank nodes could differ from AG but uniquely determined module bnode mapping
14:15:02 <AndyS> OK - I understand now
14:15:11 <AxelPolleres> Axel: I understoo that the SG is unique for the whole query
14:15:32 <AndyS> No need to change the text proposed.
14:15:38 <AxelPolleres> ... do we need to stress that?
14:16:20 <chimezie> AndyS: fine with condition 1 as it is now
14:16:47 <chimezie> Axel: Each extension provides conditions to ensure finite answers 
14:16:58 <chimezie> ... 1) finiteness 2) uniqueness up to blank node rephrasing
14:16:59 <bglimm>
14:17:31 <bglimm> change from
14:17:31 <bglimm> 4 -- Each SPARQL extension must provide conditions on answer sets
14:17:31 <bglimm>      which guarantee that every BGP and AG has a finite set of answers
14:17:31 <bglimm>      which is unique up to RDF graph equivalence.
14:17:32 <bglimm> to
14:17:32 <bglimm> 4 -- Each SPARQL extension MUST provide conditions, which guarantee
14:17:34 <bglimm>      that the answer set for every BGP and AG is uniquely specified up to
14:17:36 <bglimm>      RDF graph equivalence, and SHOULD provide further conditions to
14:17:38 <bglimm>      prevent trivial infinite answers as appropriate to the regime.
14:19:04 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:20:27 <chimezie> bglimm: need to say what the SG is and then what inferences you make, and then ensure the answers are the same where the only difference is blank node renaming
14:20:49 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aaii
14:20:50 <chimezie> AndyS: what is the role of blank nodes in SG, how can they vary?
14:20:57 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about blank nodes
14:20:59 <chimezie> bglimm: you can invent new ones
14:21:09 <pgearon> Zakim, aaii is me
14:21:09 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
14:23:33 <chimezie> P(BGP) is the answer set 'graph'
14:25:06 <AxelPolleres> I think we can resolve on condition 1... we need a wording for condition 4.
14:25:09 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:25:47 <chimezie> Axel: should we take this to the ML
14:25:48 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:26:01 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: change Condition 1 as suggested in
14:26:35 <bglimm> 1 -- The scoping graph, SG, corresponding to any consistent active
14:26:35 <bglimm>       graph AG is specified uniquely up to RDF graph equivalence and is
14:26:35 <bglimm>       E-equivalent to AG.
14:26:56 <bglimm> +1
14:27:09 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: change Condition 1 as suggested in
14:27:36 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Birte to reformulate Condition 4
14:27:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-221 - Reformulate Condition 4 [on Birte Glimm - due 2010-04-27].
14:27:55 <chimezie> Axel: next on agenda - issue 49
14:27:56 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:27:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:28:11 <chimezie> ... Graphs as information resources, etc.
14:28:12 <AxelPolleres> topic: ISSUE-49
14:28:13 <AxelPolleres>
14:28:34 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
14:28:34 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
14:29:05 <chimezie> Greg: I brought this up on behalf of Kjetl
14:29:11 <AndyS> "Information resource" => "A resource which has the property that all of its essential  characteristics can be conveyed in a message." (AWWW)
14:29:14 <chimezie> ... the definitions are loose, the wording should be cleared up
14:29:35 <chimezie> ... distinction between graphs and IRI used to reference the graph or the IR serialized by the graph
14:29:48 <chimezie> ... terminology is confusing
14:29:50 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:29:56 <AxelPolleres> ack me
14:29:56 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about blank nodes
14:29:58 <chimezie> ... need to clear up the language
14:30:21 <AxelPolleres>
14:31:39 <ivan> there is no serialization involved, is there?
14:31:55 <chimezie> ... the distinction is important with regards to http-range-4
14:32:25 <ivan> q+
14:32:25 <chimezie> Axel: assumed that the issue was the use of the word equivalence
14:32:35 <AlexPassant> s/4/14
14:33:14 <AxelPolleres>
14:33:27 <AxelPolleres> This is equivalent to the following SPARQL query:
14:33:27 <AxelPolleres>  
14:33:28 <AxelPolleres> CONSTRUCT { ?s ?p ?o } WHERE { GRAPH <graph_uri> { ?s ?p ?o } }
14:33:29 <chimezie> ... in the SPARQL 1.0 document, there is some confusion but it the uri does not reference the graph
14:33:45 <ivan> q-
14:33:48 <AxelPolleres> "This may be viewed equivalent to the following SPARQL query:
14:33:48 <AxelPolleres>  CONSTRUCT { ?s ?p ?o } WHERE { GRAPH <graph_uri> { ?s ?p ?o } }
14:33:49 <AxelPolleres> posed to a SPARQL endpoint which had any Web retrievable RDF graph in it's
14:33:49 <AxelPolleres> <a href="referencetodefinition of Graph store in Update 1.1">Graph store</a>.
14:33:49 <AxelPolleres> "
14:34:24 <kasei> <graph_uri>
14:35:50 <kasei> from SPARQL 1.0:
14:35:53 <kasei> """The FROM NAMED syntax suggests that the IRI identifies the corresponding graph, but the relationship between an IRI and a graph in an RDF dataset is indirect. The IRI identifies a resource, and the resource is represented by a graph (or, more precisely: by a document that serializes a graph)."""
14:39:59 <chimezie> "We recall from [SPARQL] that IRIs for RDF graphs in SPARQL queries identify a resource, and the resource is represented by a graph (or, more precisely: by a document that serializes a graph)"
14:40:38 <kasei> +1 AndyS
14:43:29 <kasei> the trouble is the parenthetical
14:43:40 <kasei> AndyS is talking about the parenthetical, Chimezie about the thing right before it.
14:44:23 <AxelPolleres> could we type in a rephrasing?
14:45:05 <kasei> just merging the parenthetical back into the sentence would be a good start.
14:45:20 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
14:46:46 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: chime to propose rewordings on mailinglist on http-protocol which clarify ISSUE-49
14:46:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-222 - Propose rewordings on mailinglist on http-protocol which clarify ISSUE-49 [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2010-04-27].
14:46:58 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:47:34 <Zakim> +??P35
14:47:36 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P35 is me
14:47:36 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:47:52 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:47:52 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:48:13 <AxelPolleres>
14:49:24 <AxelPolleres> q?
14:50:08 <AxelPolleres> topic: test suite
14:50:29 <AxelPolleres>
14:50:37 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:51:39 <chimezie> Axel: will need multiple manifests for testing framework
14:52:16 <chimezie> ... keep SPARQL 1.0 test cases as is and extend for 1.1 features?
14:53:17 <chimezie> ... my proposal is to include reference to old test cases - copying old manifest - and create new subdirectories for 1.1 features
14:53:25 <chimezie> ... but still only have 1 manifest file that extends the old one
14:53:58 <chimezie> Axel: what to do about update test cases?  
14:54:27 <chimezie> ... update evaluation test cases need to cover different kinds of results: errors, results, etc..
14:54:40 <chimezie> ... need to also describe before and after status of the graph store
14:55:03 <AxelPolleres>
14:56:21 <AxelPolleres> ... new properties ut:unnamedGraph, ut:namedGraph
14:56:40 <AxelPolleres> ... ut:graph  
14:56:44 <AxelPolleres> ... ut:named similar in spirit to sd: vocabulary, to describe graph store status.
14:57:11 <AxelPolleres> ... objections? comments?
14:57:34 <AxelPolleres> zakim, pick a victim
14:57:34 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:57:55 <bglimm> I'll look and see how entailments could fit in
14:57:58 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: chime to look over
14:57:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Look over [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2010-04-27].
14:58:25 <kasei> when are we scheduled for next publication?
14:58:32 <AndyS1> AndyS1 has joined #sparql
14:59:46 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to check with editors what's the status of docs wrt. publication schedule
14:59:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-224 - Check with editors what's the status of docs wrt. publication schedule [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-04-27].
14:59:46 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:00:36 <AxelPolleres> summary: next time discuss Fed queries and publication schedule, all editors, let us know how far you are wrt. publication of next round!
15:00:46 <MattPerry>  quit
15:00:46 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:00:47 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:00:47 <Zakim> -Souri
15:00:47 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
15:00:47 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:00:48 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:00:48 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:00:49 <Zakim> -kasei
15:00:51 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:00:51 <AxelPolleres> chair: axel polleres
15:00:59 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:01:01 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
15:01:03 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:01:04 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:01:13 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:01:15 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:01:19 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:01:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +03539149aaaa, AxelPolleres, +1.518.276.aabb, kasei, bglimm, Lee_Feigenbaum, +49.238.aadd, +0208439aaee, OlivierCorby, Ivan, +0208439aaff, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri,
15:01:21 <kasei> sandro, any eta on the service description graph naming issue response?
15:01:28 <Zakim> ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, AndyS, MattPerry, SteveH, +1.919.332.aahh, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, +1.312.863.aaii, pgearon
15:02:14 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to fix the example in
15:02:18 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to fix the example in
15:02:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Fix the example in [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-04-27].
15:02:21 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
15:02:40 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:11:59 <LeeF> Are there any XML schema datatypes that have a value space that maintains precision (i.e. lexical forms "2.0" and "2.00" correspond to different values)?
15:13:13 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has left #sparql
15:17:20 <kasei> ick
15:17:23 <SteveH> LeeF, string :)
15:20:00 <kasei> haha
15:20:54 <LeeF> oy
15:21:00 <LeeF> what should i tell my scientist users? :)
15:21:59 <SteveH> they should relax? ;)
15:22:11 <LeeF> lol
15:23:43 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
15:24:10 <LeeF> I'm going to tell them to call you, Steve.
15:32:27 <kasei> LeeF, why are you constrained to XSD? If you've got specific needs, why not make your own?
16:12:05 <LeeF> because i don't want to invent a wheel on my own
16:12:45 <LeeF> i've got a bunch of software based around RDF (which means XSD as the basis for literal typing), and I'd like to support a use case that requires this, but it's not the core of what i do :)
16:24:21 <SteveH> if they have "12.000"^^sci:number they can cast as appropriate
16:26:04 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #sparql
17:13:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql
18:50:42 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
19:10:33 <kasei>
19:10:37 <kasei> anyone want to glance over that?
19:12:04 <kasei> Mostly concerned about the last paragraph. Not sure it's exactly "beyond the scope" of the SD work, but it's never been discussed before and I'm not sure there are any implementations (except NH's week-old one which brought up the issue) which do it.
19:12:38 <kasei> so worried about the timing and feature creep
19:20:23 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-189
19:20:23 <trackbot> ACTION-189 Get back to ivanh on the usabuility of POWDER for SD. closed
19:20:26 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-214
19:20:26 <trackbot> ACTION-214 Add ability to mark individual graphs with their entailment regime closed
19:22:19 <LeeF> kasei, I think that response is fine
19:22:40 <kasei> ok. the one thing I haven't addressed yet is his question about indicating parsable formats.
19:22:55 <kasei> we're now doing result formats, but not parsing formats.
19:23:11 <kasei> hesitant to keep adding things, but does seem like a strange asymmetry.
20:35:23 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #sparql