Chatlog 2009-11-10

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14:59:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:59:06 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:59:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:59:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:59:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:11 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:59:11 <trackbot> Date: 10 November 2009
14:59:18 <LeeF> zakim, this is SPARQL
14:59:18 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:59:32 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see andy
14:59:36 <Zakim> +bglimm
14:59:46 <AndyS> zakim, very good.
14:59:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'very good', AndyS
14:59:53 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:56 <AndyS> zakim, andy is AndyS
14:59:56 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:03 <Zakim> +EricP
15:00:08 <AlexPassant> AlexPassant has joined #sparql
15:00:08 <Zakim> +pgearon
15:00:19 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
15:00:32 <Zakim> +kasei
15:00:38 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
15:00:38 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
15:00:41 <Ivan Herman> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:00:41 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:00:43 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.216.445.aaaa
15:00:48 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
15:00:48 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
15:00:51 <Zakim> +??P8
15:00:53 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:53 <Zakim> +john-l; got it
15:00:53 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:00:55 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:01:05 <dcharbon2> dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
15:01:24 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
15:01:48 <Zakim> + +1.574.905.aabb
15:01:56 <Zakim> +dcharbon2
15:02:50 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #sparql
15:03:13 <Zakim> +??P15
15:03:20 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
15:03:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, +1.574.905.aabb, dcharbon2, ??P15
15:03:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:03:25 <LeeF> zakim, P15 is Orri
15:03:26 <Zakim> ... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:03:27 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
15:03:28 <LeeF> zakim, ??P15 is Orri
15:03:28 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
15:03:36 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
15:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, +1.574.905.aabb, dcharbon2, Orri
15:03:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:03:45 <Zakim> ... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:03:56 <Zakim> - +1.574.905.aabb
15:04:03 <Zakim> +??P16
15:04:22 <LukeWM> zakim, ??P16 is Garlik
15:04:22 <Zakim> +Garlik; got it
15:04:29 <LeeF> zakim, Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH
15:04:29 <Zakim> +LukeWM, SteveH; got it
15:04:36 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
15:04:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, Orri, Garlik
15:04:38 <Zakim> Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH
15:04:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:04:42 <Zakim> ... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:04:47 <LukeWM> zakim, Garlik has SteveH,LukeWM
15:04:47 <Zakim> SteveH was already listed in Garlik, LukeWM
15:04:48 <Zakim> LukeWM was already listed in Garlik, LukeWM
15:05:21 <LeeF> tommik, are you able to join us on the teleconference?
15:05:38 <Tommi (tommik)> LeeF, trying my phoneline went dead
15:05:48 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
15:06:00 <bglimm> I guess I should scribe...
15:06:34 <LeeF> Scribenick: bglimm
15:06:36 <Zakim> + +035840564aacc
15:06:38 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
15:07:22 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at (if we manage to get them up) 
15:07:57 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at (if we manage to get them up) 
15:08:30 <bglimm> LeeF: Minutes from 27th have to be cleaned up first.
15:08:41 <bglimm> LeeF: Lets talk about a third F2F
15:09:08 <bglimm> ... over the next month we will flesh out the docs and create test cases
15:09:48 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is Tommi (tommik)
15:09:48 <Zakim> +Tommi (tommik); got it
15:10:13 <LeeF> Tommi is representing Profium
15:10:27 <LeeF> ack Tommi (tommik)
15:10:30 <LeeF> ack aacc
15:10:37 <LeeF> ack +035840564aacc
15:10:39 <bglimm> Tommi (tommik): I am representing Profium. I am software engineer for a meta data server, which is a SPARQL engine.
15:11:19 <bglimm> LeeF: We want to get to Last Call in April.
15:11:45 <bglimm> ... a F2F around March would be good
15:12:09 <bglimm> ... first F2F with 2 sites worked quite well. 
15:12:37 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: There will be an AC meeting in MIT in March
15:13:03 <bglimm> LeeF: Axel suggested DERI to host a UK site. 
15:13:21 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: The AC meeting starts on 21st of March 
15:13:42 <Prateek> Prateek has joined #sparql
15:13:48 <AndyS> I'm muted
15:13:54 <AndyS> ... now
15:14:05 <LeeF> potentially the week of March 16
15:14:09 <Zakim> +Prateek
15:14:13 <bglimm> LeeF: How about March 15
15:14:21 <Ivan Herman> s/16/15/
15:14:41 <bglimm> I can ask here, whether Oxford can host a site too, but DERI would be ok for me.
15:15:10 <bglimm> LeeF: One location could be Cambride (US) and another one DERI (Ireland)
15:15:15 <SteveH> bglimm, oxford, please! :)
15:15:40 <LukeWM> not sure if I could go to galway, would definitely prefer oxford.
15:16:10 <AndyS> Oxford is my pref.  Or London.  Or AMS.
15:16:28 <bglimm> LeeF: I will set up a wiki where people can indicate which time and place is ok
15:16:46 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to reset scribe list
15:16:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Reset scribe list [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-11-17].
15:16:53 <LeeF> topic: liaisons
15:17:48 <bglimm> LeeF: Eric gave a talk at the HDLS interest group and they wanted SPARQL 1.1 rather sooner than later, ideally now
15:17:57 <LeeF> topic: F2F Report
15:17:58 <kasei_> kasei_ has joined #sparql
15:18:17 <bglimm> LeeF: Minutes have been processed
15:18:17 <LeeF> minutes are at and
15:18:28 <bglimm> ... but need cleaning-up
15:18:44 <bglimm> ... will ask scribes to help with cleaning-up
15:19:09 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:19:15 <bglimm> ... next week or the week after they should be ready and give people how where not there a good idea of decisions being made
15:19:38 <bglimm> ... main topics at the F2F where query issues on day 1 and update issues on day2
15:20:11 <LeeF> 
15:20:18 <bglimm> ... we wanted to discuss as many open issues as possible, we did not want to make group resolutions because only 4 or 5 people were attending in person
15:21:32 <bglimm> ... I suggest people go through the discussions and suggested solutions and approve the suggested solutions or suggest changes
15:22:06 <bglimm> ... I'll quickly go through the issues
15:22:19 <Zakim> +??P6
15:22:21 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:22:21 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:23:05 <bglimm> ... Issues 11: Implicit grouping, pending due to issue 41
15:23:27 <bglimm> ... otherwise consensus
15:24:19 <bglimm> ... Issue 12: HAVING vs. FILTER as keyword for limiting aggregate results 
15:24:51 <bglimm> ... general preference for FILTER keyword
15:26:01 <bglimm> Issue unnumbered: DISTINCT in aggregate functions 
15:26:20 <bglimm> s/Issue/... Issue/
15:27:01 <bglimm> ... has a general consensus on allowing DISTINCT with multiple arguments to aggregate functions
15:27:15 <bglimm> ... issue unnumbered Star (asterisk) in aggregate functions 
15:27:28 <bglimm> ... consensus on star makes only sense in count
15:27:37 <bglimm> ... ISSUE-15: Syntax for custom aggregates 
15:28:13 <bglimm> ... mild preference for having a keyword to introduce custom aggregates
15:28:42 <bglimm> s/having/not having/
15:29:05 <bglimm> ... this will be giving as advice to editors
15:29:16 <bglimm> ... ISSUE-16: Mixed datatypes with built-in aggregates 
15:30:18 <bglimm> ... consensus on behavior of MIN/MAX and SUM/AVG
15:31:23 <bglimm> ... consensus on the use of COALESCE to trap errors from values that had to be discarded 
15:31:37 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:32:04 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
15:32:05 <bglimm> ... mild consensus on enforcing aliases for expressions
15:32:22 <SteveH> q+ around AS expressions in projections
15:32:33 <SteveH> q+ to talk around AS expressions in projections
15:32:39 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:33:02 <bglimm> ... Issue Syntax for expressions in SELECT list has no satisfactory solution
15:33:17 <LeeF> ack SteveH
15:33:17 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk around AS expressions in projections
15:34:07 <bglimm> SteveH: I withdraw any support for expressions in projections
15:34:39 <SteveH> bglimm, no, it's commas I withdraw my support for
15:35:18 <bglimm> s/expressions in projections/commas in Select expressions
15:35:37 <Zakim> +??P6
15:35:38 <bglimm> s/expressions in projections/commas in Select expressions/
15:35:42 <AlexPassant> Zaki, ?P6 is me 
15:35:50 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?P6 is me 
15:35:50 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P6'
15:36:07 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P6 is me 
15:36:07 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:36:17 <bglimm> LeeF: sub-asks and sub-selects have already been discussed further on the mailing list
15:36:51 <bglimm> LeeF: consensus for no sub-selects in filters
15:37:59 <bglimm> ... cannot use aliases (AS keyword) from sub-queries in the outer part of the query
15:38:31 <bglimm> ... any clarifications needed for what has been discussed so far?
15:39:01 <bglimm> ... action everybody to take a look at this and raise concerns on the mailing list if there are any
15:39:29 <bglimm> ... next week we will close issues for which no concerns have been expressed
15:39:57 <LeeF> day 2 minutes -
15:40:13 <bglimm> ... I want to go through the day 2 minutes and look at the list of resolutions
15:40:49 <bglimm> ... we might have overlooked some things and Paul (update editor) might have objections
15:41:28 <bglimm> ... we were more people, so felt more confident to make resolutions, please express concerns rather sooner than later on the mailing list if there are any
15:41:58 <SteveH> 1. Was really more about the /capability/ of MODIFY, rather than the keyword, by my recollection
15:42:01 <bglimm> ... First resolution was: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors, no objetions or abstentions
15:42:57 <bglimm> ... there was a discussion on the mailing list about omitting the where clause is ok or not
15:43:15 <bglimm> ... Second resolution: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time
15:43:44 <bglimm> ... Third resolution: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting)
15:44:40 <bglimm> ... Fifth: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27
15:45:28 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:45:28 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:46:00 <LeeF> trackbot, close ISSUE-46
15:46:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-46 Can INSERTS, DELETES, and other 'subupdates' be nested inside update language queries? closed
15:46:18 <bglimm> ... Sixth: Close issue-46, no action required since there was not and will not be any support for it
15:47:25 <bglimm> ... LeeF: regarding Issue 27: support for SPARQL 1.1 query WHERE clauses for UPDATE is optional
15:47:43 <bglimm> ... systems can support it but do not have to
15:47:53 <LeeF> topic: next steps for editors
15:48:23 <bglimm> LeeF: Editors have to move the documents forward
15:48:51 <bglimm> ... we have some reviews from FPWD, these should be incorporated in a timely fashion
15:49:09 <bglimm> ... comments should be answered
15:49:35 <bglimm> ... editors should request input from the WG for design decisions that are unclear
15:49:55 <bglimm> .... editors should identify issues that need telecon time
15:50:17 <bglimm> ... chairs will sort out what is discussed in the telecon
15:50:40 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
15:50:40 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
15:50:43 <bglimm> ... is that ok with all editors?
15:51:05 <Ivan Herman> q+
15:51:18 <bglimm> chimezie: How should we handle comments? Create a wiki page?
15:51:39 <LeeF> ack Ivan Herman
15:51:40 <bglimm> LeeF: How have other groups done that?
15:52:04 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: My experience from OWL is that we had a huge amount of comments
15:52:06 <AndyS> Doc process. Makes sense to me and it is fine.
15:52:35 <bglimm> .... people picked up a comment, produced a wiki page and people had a week to comment on the suggested reply from the wiki page
15:52:47 <bglimm> ... after a week without comments the reply is send out
15:53:11 <bglimm> .... for Last Call we should also keep track of all the replies and also replies to the commens
15:53:18 <SteveH> +1 to document process
15:54:03 <bglimm> ... The OWL group maintained a big table with references to comments, the replies and replies to replies and clearly identified were people were happy with the replies and where not
15:54:20 <bglimm> LeeF: Can you provide a reference?
15:54:29 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: Give me a few minutes.
15:54:53 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:54:59 <bglimm> Sandro: Maybe at least the chairs should look over replies.
15:55:23 <sandro>
15:55:36 <bglimm> LeeF: If you don't hear from anybody, you should explicitly ask me or Axel for feedback. 
15:56:22 <bglimm> LeeF: I would like to see whether we can set a target for next PWD. 
15:56:43 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: Sandro pasted the link for OWL comments and responses
15:56:52 <Zakim> +??P6
15:56:52 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P6 is me 
15:56:53 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:57:18 <bglimm> Ivan Herman: That worked very well for the OWL group. 
15:58:01 <bglimm> LeeF: W3C heartbeat requires to publish every 3 month
15:58:15 <bglimm> LeeF: Holidays in December are coming up
15:58:26 <bglimm> ... I would suggest middle of January
15:59:02 <bglimm> ... more polished, more complete documents with more issues resolved
15:59:04 <SteveH> it should be possible, yes
15:59:16 <bglimm> Fine with me
15:59:17 <kasei> yeah
15:59:37 <chimezie> works for me as well
15:59:59 <bglimm> LeeF: Coming to an end, lets discuss what comes up on the mailing list
16:00:15 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:00:16 <Zakim> -Ivan Herman
16:00:17 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:00:18 <Zakim> -Orri
16:00:19 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
16:00:21 <Zakim> -Prateek
#16:00:24 <Zakim> -Garlik
16:00:26 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:00:27 <Zakim> -john-l
16:00:30 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
16:00:31 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:00:33 <Zakim> -Tommi (tommik)
16:00:40 <Zakim> -kasei
16:00:46 <Zakim> -bglimm
16:00:52 <Zakim> -pgearon
16:01:33 <Zakim> -AndyS