Chatlog 2009-10-20

See original RRSAgent log and preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

13:57:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:57:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/20-sparql-irc
13:58:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:58:11 <AxelPolleres> zakim, this will be sparql
13:58:11 <Zakim> ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:32 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:37 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aaaa
13:58:40 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
13:58:44 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
13:59:08 <Zakim> + +3539149aacc
13:59:13 <pgearon> Zakim, +1.312.863.aaaa is me
13:59:13 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
13:59:20 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aacc is me
13:59:20 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
13:59:21 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #sparql
13:59:24 <Zakim> + +0186528aadd
13:59:27 <kasei> Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:27 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
13:59:31 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
13:59:31 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
13:59:34 <bglimm> Zakim, who am I
13:59:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who am I', bglimm
13:59:51 <bglimm> Zakim, who am I?
13:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, bglimm.
14:00:15 <SimonS> SimonS has joined #sparql
14:00:18 <Zakim> - +0186528aadd
14:00:33 <Zakim> + +7.950.aaee
14:00:35 <kasei> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, +7.950.aaee
14:00:41 <AxelPolleres> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-10-20
14:00:47 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-10-20
14:00:58 <Zakim> +??P13
14:01:06 <AndyS> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:01:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:01:15 <Zakim> +??P14
14:01:19 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??p14 is me 
14:01:19 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:01:19 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
14:01:25 <AndyS> (probably - zakim is slow)
14:01:35 <SteveH_> I dialed in about 1 min ago, anyone see my ID?
14:01:37 <Zakim> + +0186528aaff
14:01:47 <bglimm> Zakim, +0186528aaff is me
14:01:47 <AndyS> zakim, please mute me
14:01:52 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:01:55 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
14:01:56 <Zakim> + +049261287aagg
14:01:59 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:02:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:02:08 <SimonS> Zakim, aagg is me
14:02:11 <Zakim> +SimonS; got it
14:02:21 <AndyS> zakim, please unmute me
14:02:21 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
14:02:35 <AxelPolleres> still waiting for lee for a minute or two, otherwise we might just start.
14:03:21 <Zakim> + +49.238.aahh
14:03:34 <LukeWM> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, +7.950.aaee, AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm (muted), SimonS, +49.238.aahh
14:04:18 <SteveH> Zakim, aaee is [Garlik]
14:04:18 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
14:04:27 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and LukeWM 
14:04:27 <Zakim> +SteveH, LukeWM; got it
14:04:39 <bglimm> I can scribe
14:04:43 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:04:43 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:04:48 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, +49.238.aahh is me
14:04:48 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:04:56 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, [Garlik], AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, SimonS, OlivierCorby
14:04:58 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM
14:04:59 <bglimm> Scribe: bglimm
14:05:00 <Zakim> +EricP
14:05:10 <bglimm> Topic: Adiministrative
14:05:22 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #sparql
14:05:27 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-10-13
14:05:28 <bglimm> s/Adiministrative/Administrative/
14:05:42 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approved http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-10-13
14:05:42 <bglimm> AxelPolleres: Suggest to approve last week's minutes
14:05:59 <Zakim> +??P34
14:06:01 <Zakim> -??P34
14:06:05 <bglimm> ... next week might be difficult for a meeting because of ISWC
14:06:12 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:06:15 <AndyS> Regrets for next week.
14:06:20 <bglimm> ... people will try to participate from there
14:06:36 <Zakim> +??P34
14:06:43 <KjetilK> Zakim, ??P34 is me
14:06:43 <Zakim> +KjetilK; got it
14:06:48 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
14:06:48 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
14:06:52 <bglimm> LeeF: We should still have a call. It is the lastbefore F2F.
14:07:05 <bglimm> Topic: F2F
14:07:06 <Zakim> + +1.216.636.aaii
14:07:16 <Zakim> +SteveB
14:07:17 <chimezie> Zakim 636.aaii is me
14:07:28 <LukeWM> q+
14:07:30 <bglimm> AxelPolleres: seems we are a small group, but some people wish to participate remotely
14:07:34 <chimezie> Zakim, +1.216.636.aaii is me
14:07:34 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it
14:07:57 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:07:57 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
14:07:59 <Zakim> -EricP
14:08:00 <bglimm> LeeF: we will only have normal telecon facilities
14:08:11 <bglimm> s/LeeF/EricP/
14:08:41 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:08:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, [Garlik], AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, SimonS, OlivierCorby, KjetilK (muted), chimezie (muted), SteveB
14:08:44 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM
14:08:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, LeeF, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgearon, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, ivan, LukeWM, bglimm, KjetilK, kjetil, AlexPassant, kasei, karl, iv_an_ru,
14:08:47 <Zakim> ... ericP, trackbot
14:08:50 <LeeF> zakim, SteveB has LeeF, ericP
14:08:50 <Zakim> +LeeF, ericP; got it
14:08:51 <bglimm> AxelPolleres: I hope everybody has rejoined the WG by now.
14:09:04 <bglimm> .... if not, please do so. 
14:09:05 <sandro> sandro has joined #sparql
14:09:29 <bglimm> ... There is news for the team contacts
14:09:32 <AndyS> q?
14:09:46 <bglimm> EricP: Sandro will take over for me. Ivan will be continuing
14:09:53 <SimonS> q+
14:10:09 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
14:10:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
14:10:12 <LeeF> Regarding F2F agenda - please see and reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0201.html
14:10:16 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:10:39 <bglimm> AxelPolleres: Thanks from all of us to EricP for the work he has done. 
14:10:42 <AndyS> Thanks to EricP (DAWG and SPARQL)
14:10:51 <bglimm> ... Sandro also joinded the call. 
14:11:27 <bglimm> Sandro: I should be at the second dy of the F2F
14:11:46 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
14:11:51 <AxelPolleres> birte, i can take over scribing
14:11:57 <bglimm> Luke: I was wondering what remotely means for the F2F
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
14:12:15 <bglimm> Scribe: AxelPolleres
14:12:24 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:12:24 <Zakim> bglimm was not muted, bglimm
14:12:31 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:12:31 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:12:43 <AndyS> US is still daylight time?
14:12:46 <AndyS> EU is not.
14:12:49 <AxelPolleres> Lee: dialing into west coast might be challenging. we will see how we can arrange the schedule.
14:13:25 <AxelPolleres> ... we should gather as many issues as possible now, to put the important things in the morning slot, to enable some overlap.
14:14:08 <AxelPolleres> discussion about daylght saving time...
14:14:12 <pgearon> November 1
14:14:24 <AxelPolleres> Axel: think next week in Europe, one but next week US
14:14:28 <pgearon> Daylight time ends on Sunday, November 1 at 2 a.m. 
14:14:40 <LeeF> ack SimonS
14:15:34 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: too many issues lately, axel convinced me to stay until FPWD, but will take a break until spring then. 
14:15:48 <AxelPolleres> ... hope to rejoin then, will be at ISWC.
14:16:02 <AxelPolleres> Lee: thanks, paul will continue as update editor.
14:16:22 <pgearon> :-)
14:16:27 <AxelPolleres> Paul: have CVS access now, don't see a problem with that.
14:16:39 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:16:39 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
14:16:56 <AxelPolleres> ericP: 3 more days to register for TPAC, costs 50$ per day.
14:17:13 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
14:17:34 <ivan> ivan has left #sparql
14:17:42 <AxelPolleres> eric: if you are late, more expensive and unsure
14:18:22 <AxelPolleres> topic: liaison
14:18:36 <AxelPolleres> Lee: we'll meet hcls at TPAC
14:19:01 <AxelPolleres> eric: we'll care about federation, path expression
14:19:30 <AxelPolleres> simons: I had some chat with hcls some time ago, can give a summary
14:20:08 <AxelPolleres> ... they are split into subgroups. results are 5-6 different knowledge bases, which need to be connected (by federation)
14:20:09 <pgearon> +q
14:20:16 <AndyS> q+ to ask that this be described in email
14:20:28 <AxelPolleres> ... will probably need more than what we currently have under basic federation.
14:20:42 <AxelPolleres> paul: where are we going with federation?
14:21:06 <AxelPolleres> lee: basic federation is a time-allowed feature, no actual meetings yet.
14:21:14 <LeeF> ack pgearon
14:21:24 <AxelPolleres> paul: this is something I'd want to get involved with.
14:21:58 <SimonS> +1 Paul 
14:22:02 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:22:02 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask that this be described in email
14:22:08 <AxelPolleres> ... passing bindings between queries (paul pls summarise)
14:22:25 <pgearon> I'd like to summarize in an email, if that's OK
14:22:34 <AxelPolleres> andy: would be good to have the requirements written up.
14:23:33 <AxelPolleres> action: paul to summarize federated querying in HCLS together with simonS in email thread
14:23:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Summarize federated querying in HCLS together with simonS in email thread [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-10-27].
14:23:49 <ericP> -> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/trunk/tests/7tm_receptors/flat/q.rq example of HCLS federation (using GRAPH instead of SERVICE but that will change soon)
14:23:54 <AxelPolleres> topic: fpwd
14:24:02 <AxelPolleres> topic: query
14:24:08 <AxelPolleres> lee: query all set
14:24:12 <AxelPolleres> q+
14:24:17 <AxelPolleres> q-
14:24:44 <AxelPolleres> lee: all documents need to be consistent with the new naming scheme, we do that in the process of applying pubrules with eric.
14:25:10 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/
14:25:11 <AxelPolleres> topic: update
14:25:26 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/
14:25:41 <SimonS> q+
14:25:45 <AxelPolleres> luke: should we also move the urls in CVS?
14:26:01 <AxelPolleres> Lee: can we move that?
14:26:05 <AxelPolleres> Eric: can be done
14:26:27 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee and EricP to move update editor's draft to -1.1 URL
14:26:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - And EricP to move update editor's draft to -1.1 URL [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-27].
14:26:28 <AndyS> (Or remove the version completely in case ... :-()
14:26:35 <AxelPolleres> Paul: all updated in CVS
14:26:43 <SimonS> q-
14:27:14 <AxelPolleres> Luke: small comments, but nothing critical. section 4.1 has a note which might be changed into an issue.
14:27:38 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: think I changed all into issues this morning.
14:27:40 <LukeWM> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/#sec_examples
14:28:29 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: I changed the note to refer to section 2.1, in section 2.1 you have four related issues...
14:28:41 <AxelPolleres> Luke: ok, that's fine for me.
14:29:21 <AxelPolleres> Luke:other thing, mentioned graph graph patterns which weren't there
14:29:34 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: it is actually there , production 25
14:30:25 <AxelPolleres> Lee: the "red stuff" (stylesheet related) will be fixed today
14:31:02 <AndyS> q+ about XSLT
14:31:18 <AxelPolleres> ... which is a result of XSL not being complete.
14:31:37 <LeeF> I'd also like us to end up with a single XSLT, hoping to do that
14:32:03 <LeeF> ack about
14:32:04 <LeeF> ack XSLT
14:32:17 <AxelPolleres> Eric: if you find something wrong in the XSL, let us know, you'll catch us on IRC the next few hours.
14:32:20 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:32:20 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
14:33:02 <AxelPolleres> Andy: you change the XSL?
14:33:10 <AxelPolleres> Lee: yes.
14:33:20 <AndyS> Query document: XSLT: <b> <cite> and tables / boxes
14:33:29 <AxelPolleres> Andy: i see some things removed, e.g. tables not having borders, etc.
14:34:03 <bglimm> +1 to Andy
14:34:47 <AxelPolleres> Andy: we should have one style across all documents.... which is actually a good intent in the new W3C styles.
14:35:01 <ericP> those cursed systems folks have raised expectations
14:35:31 <bglimm> I would like to have elements for query and results in examples
14:35:40 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let us know if you need some special items in the XSL
14:36:06 <AxelPolleres> topic: protocol
14:36:17 <LukeWM> q+
14:36:21 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/
14:36:39 <AxelPolleres> Lee: alex/andy pointed some minor things...
14:36:42 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
14:36:57 <AxelPolleres> ... I did some global search on "SOAP" and tackled that. 
14:37:08 <AxelPolleres> Luke: some more remark on update.
14:37:16 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/22
14:37:40 <AxelPolleres> ... issue-22 doesn't belong to update.
14:38:05 <LukeWM> pgearon, it's in section 4.1
14:38:05 <AxelPolleres> Lee: paul, can you remove ISSUE-22 from update. 
14:38:33 <AxelPolleres> Lee: before closing that issue...
14:39:05 <AxelPolleres> ... I want to have a call where we rush through issues, once we have FPWD out.
14:39:19 <AxelPolleres> ... I saw that simon/kjetil created issues.
14:39:34 <sandro> (I'm used to anyone can PROPOSE and issue, but only the chairs can declare it OPEN.)
14:39:45 <ericP> ISSUE+ don't abuse issues
14:39:56 <AxelPolleres> ... we might want to have a policy on that, please consider not adding issues, rather let's create/manage issues through chairs.
14:39:57 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
14:39:57 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
14:40:26 <AxelPolleres> topic: http-update
14:40:27 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/
14:40:33 <AxelPolleres> chime: no issues here
14:40:33 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
14:40:33 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
14:40:41 <AxelPolleres> lee: all set, thanks to chime.
14:40:52 <AxelPolleres> topic: service description
14:40:52 <kasei> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml
14:41:36 <AxelPolleres> q+
14:41:48 <AlexPassant> q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# being online before FPWD
14:42:12 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/43
14:42:19 <pgearon> Lee, I've removed issue 22
14:42:27 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:42:27 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/43
14:42:30 <LeeF> thanks, pgearon
14:42:42 <KjetilK> should the document link to ISSUE-44?
14:43:28 <LukeWM> which document, KjetilK ?
14:43:38 <KjetilK> LukeWM, the HTTP Update
14:43:45 <LukeWM> ah, OK
14:43:50 <bglimm> Should I add that issue to the entailments doc then?
14:43:55 <AxelPolleres> Lee: if we flag ISSUE-43 now in SD, it might be confusing
14:44:03 <bglimm> Ok
14:44:05 <AxelPolleres> Axel: fair enough
14:44:22 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:44:22 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:44:29 <AlexPassant> LeeF: i'm on the queue :)
14:44:33 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:44:33 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:44:39 <AxelPolleres> Lee: birte, would be good to have the issue in the entailment doc. 
14:44:44 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant
14:44:44 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# being online before FPWD
14:45:23 <AlexPassant> either put the vocab online or mention that it's not here *yet*
14:45:25 <AlexPassant> yes LeeF 
14:45:39 <kasei> good catch. should also have agreement on the iri (?)
14:45:39 <AxelPolleres> Alex: can we get the namespace http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# online before FPWD?
14:45:56 <AxelPolleres> Eric: we could put a placeholder document
14:46:03 <AlexPassant> yes
14:46:06 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
14:46:06 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
14:46:30 <AxelPolleres> greg: I have just couned that URI, is it ok wirth everyone?
14:47:23 <AxelPolleres> ... is that inline with W3C naming convention?
14:47:23 <sandro> this is a namespace?    for XML or RDF?
14:48:00 <sandro> www.w3.org/ns/service#
14:48:11 <sandro> www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service#
14:48:48 <sandro> yeah, I didn;'t mean to leave out "sparql"
14:49:35 <AxelPolleres> andyS: maybe better to not block the namespace now, since it gives it more weight, we might not want that, unless we are sure about the namespace.
14:49:46 <sandro> There MUST be a document at the namespace URI if the namespace is used in a TR.    
14:50:14 <sandro> yes, it can say "subject to change, etc"
14:50:24 <AxelPolleres> sandro: pubrules prsecribe that there has to be a document at any namespace mentioned.
14:50:27 <sandro> yes
14:50:54 <sandro> and note in the Spec where the NS is mentions.
14:50:55 <AxelPolleres> Lee: anybody unhappy with www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service# ?
14:51:02 <SteveH> +1 to +description
14:51:04 <LeeF> sparql-service# vs. sparql-service-description#
14:51:08 <SteveH> it's a little confusing otherwise
14:51:13 <AxelPolleres> greg: prefer service description.
14:51:26 <sandro> "description" seems redundant to me, but I'm new.
14:51:34 <AxelPolleres> +1 to include description
14:51:37 <ericP> +1 to apathy
14:51:45 <SteveH> +0 to apathy
14:52:04 <AxelPolleres> Lee: www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description# be it
14:52:07 <LeeF> ACTION: Eric and Lee to request .../ns/sparql-service-description# and put a "subject to change" doc there
14:52:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-126 - And Lee to request .../ns/sparql-service-description# and put a "subject to change" doc there [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-10-27].
14:52:27 <AxelPolleres> eric: HTML for now there.
14:52:49 <AxelPolleres> ... anybody objecting to conneg there?
14:53:01 <sandro> html for now, RDFa and/or conneg later
14:53:06 <kasei> LeeF, will you change that ns in the doc when you are making changes today, or should I?
14:53:07 <AxelPolleres> sandro: we can do RDFa later on
14:53:08 <AndyS> if RDFa, then RDF as well please.  
14:53:16 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to update NS in serv. description document
14:53:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-127 - Update NS in serv. description document [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-27].
14:53:17 <sandro> plus 6 grddl transforms.  :-)
14:53:32 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:53:32 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:53:37 <AxelPolleres> topic: entailment document
14:53:42 <AndyS> OK if server side ;-)
14:53:52 <AxelPolleres> birte: all in CVS, looks alright for me.
14:54:03 <AxelPolleres> ... not sure how it looks for everyone.
14:54:06 <LeeF> to set access go to http://URI/URI/,access
14:54:23 <AxelPolleres> eric: you should be able to set .access
14:54:29 <bglimm> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment/xmlspec.xml
14:55:26 <sandro> I see it in CVS.
14:55:29 <AxelPolleres> birte: might be a commit issue.
14:55:41 <AxelPolleres> eric: let's pick that up after the call on irc.
14:56:02 <AndyS> I see it in CVS.  last update Oct 20 15:42
14:56:11 <AxelPolleres> lee: did you address all the issues we talked about?
14:56:50 <AxelPolleres> birte: yes, but might need more reviewers, removed entailment regimes we haven't really worked on, just left RDF/RDFS
14:57:03 <AxelPolleres> lee: should be ok.
14:57:07 <sandro> 7 years bad luck
14:57:32 <AxelPolleres> topic: overall fpwd issues
14:58:20 <AxelPolleres> eric: we will turn around a lot  at grammar, how many docs have grammar in them?
14:58:43 <sandro> weird.   the mirrors say http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment doesn't exist, but when I did a an update -d on 2009/sparql it was created for me, with contents.
14:58:46 <LeeF> Regrets: IvanH, Orri
14:58:53 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:58:53 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:59:12 <AxelPolleres> andy/eric discussing grammar...
15:00:10 <AxelPolleres> Andy: query isn't xmlspec'ed yet. is in HMTL, should be ok.
15:00:22 <AxelPolleres> ... more important things than styling so far.
15:01:05 <SteveH> +1 to aggregates
15:01:10 <AndyS> +1
15:01:12 <AxelPolleres> Lee: 60mins up, would like to continue shortly about the aggregate issues.
15:01:15 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:01:31 <AxelPolleres> andy: we may not agree, but let's start the issues.
15:01:50 <SteveH> not really , no
15:01:50 <AxelPolleres> Lee: almost all include we should include count.
15:01:52 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:02:01 <AxelPolleres> ... do we have a starting point for that?
15:02:24 <AxelPolleres> Andy: shall we start with the relational one?
15:02:25 <AndyS> COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM
15:02:33 <LukeWM> AVG?
15:02:56 <LeeF> GROUP_CONCAT
15:03:09 <LeeF> SAMPLE
15:03:09 <AxelPolleres> basically any XPATH/XQuery funct that accepts sequences could be allowed?
15:03:10 <AndyS> StsveH - can you define it in email?  Still hazy on details (prob happy with it)
15:03:30 <pgearon> first?
15:03:33 <SteveH> AndyS, sure
15:03:34 <AndyS> XP/XQ has issues in the details
15:03:37 <AxelPolleres> e.g. string-join
15:03:41 <AndyS> SteveH, ta
15:03:46 <LeeF> STDDEV
15:04:01 <AxelPolleres> lee:  statistics, e.g. STDDEV 
15:04:17 <ericP> my pref would have been COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG, but i think a system that has debugging from the start is a very good developer draw
15:04:28 <ericP> so also like SAMPLE
15:04:29 <pgearon> we'd be a laughing stock if we didn't include COUNT
15:04:30 <LukeWM> I'd like AVG to be called something different.
15:04:48 <AxelPolleres> COUNT  seems to be agreed.
15:05:13 <pgearon> +1 for MIN/MAX (mixed types aside)
15:05:41 <AxelPolleres> axel: MIN/MAX don't add expressivity, but  very useful
15:06:04 <AxelPolleres> andyS: actually they do add: usable in GROUP BY
15:06:42 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:07:21 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
15:07:34 <AxelPolleres> SUM also sounds like it has support
15:07:49 <AndyS> q+
15:07:52 <AxelPolleres> AVG might need to be named different.
15:07:53 <chimezie> q+ consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:00 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:08:04 <chimezie> q+
15:08:07 <LeeF> ack consensus
15:08:07 <Zakim> consensus, you wanted to comment on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:17 <AxelPolleres> Lee: different naming was suggested by Luke
15:08:19 <LeeF> q+ chimezie to discuss  consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:27 <AxelPolleres> Luke: better call it "mean"
15:08:43 <SteveH> can have AVG as an alias for MEAN
15:08:59 <SteveH> a la isURI and isIRI
15:09:01 <AxelPolleres> Lee: AVG would assume same behaviour as in SQL
15:09:16 <pgearon> MEAN implies a numeric operation, while people might try to apply AVG to other things... but what's the average of "foo" and "bar"? :-)
15:09:44 <kasei> pgearon, probably depends on the current text encoding :)
15:09:46 <AxelPolleres> Lee: would lean towards AVG
15:10:04 <pgearon> +1 for aggregates
15:10:18 <AxelPolleres> either both SUM and AVG or no arithmetic at all
15:10:32 <pgearon> I mean, for and "average" aggregate
15:10:50 <LeeF> ISSUE: Should the average/arithmetic mean aggregate be called AVG, MEAN, both, or something else?
15:10:50 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-50 - Should the average/arithmetic mean aggregate be called AVG, MEAN, both, or something else? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/50/edit .
15:11:27 <LukeWM> no
15:11:33 <kasei> 0
15:11:35 <SteveH> STDDEV is quite useful
15:11:41 <AxelPolleres> Lee: Excel has a core set that includes SDTDEV, does anybody think we should include that?
15:12:12 <AxelPolleres> ... extensibility should enable including these.
15:12:40 <AxelPolleres> Lee: GROUPCONCAT very much like string-join
15:12:53 <AxelPolleres> ... we use it all the time.
15:13:02 <AndyS> Name is horrible!
15:13:09 <kasei> is the "GROUP" in that just to distinguish it as an aggregate function?
15:13:22 <SteveH> kasei, yes
15:13:26 <AxelPolleres> ... no strong feeling whether it should belong to thee core.
15:13:29 <SteveH> the name is horrible, yes
15:13:46 <KjetilK> +1
15:13:48 <SteveH> +1
15:13:55 <AndyS> 0
15:14:02 <LeeF> ack chimezie
15:14:02 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to discuss  consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:14:02 <AxelPolleres> ... I am not wedded to the name "GROUPCONCAT", aside that would we want to include it?
15:14:10 <kasei> AndyS, seems tricky without the ability to escape the underlying values first
15:14:17 <SteveH> defn, from mysql, FWIW: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/group-by-functions.html#function_group-concat
15:14:34 <AndyS> escaping?
15:14:40 <kasei> for csv
15:14:40 <AxelPolleres> chime: shouldn't we rather think of criteria of what a well-behaved function should look like?
15:14:44 <AndyS> StevbeH - does that escape sep?
15:14:59 <AxelPolleres> ... than discussing the single aggregates?
15:15:05 <SteveH> AndyS, no
15:15:12 <SteveH> not in mysql anyway
15:15:18 <AndyS> NP - add a fucntion call.
15:15:21 <SteveH> yup
15:15:27 <AndyS> q+
15:15:36 <AxelPolleres> Lee: we aren't even sure yet whether we want aggregates to define single return values.
15:15:38 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:16:02 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: I already have a definition which ties it to a single value.
15:16:33 <Zakim> -chimezie
15:16:53 <AxelPolleres> Lee: will the issues we have discussed today go into the FPWD?
15:16:57 <AndyS> -99 to definition.
15:17:26 <AxelPolleres> Steve: already a list of candidates there, which we might extend, no definition at this point.
15:17:41 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's continue the list ...
15:17:47 <AxelPolleres> ... SAMPLE.
15:17:48 <AndyS> q+
15:17:56 <SteveH> SAMPLE is neccesary if we don't allow aggregate values to be projected, which had support previously
15:18:18 <AxelPolleres> q+ worried about non-determinism (as usual).
15:18:20 <AndyS> ack me
15:18:23 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:18:46 <AndyS> ah - "non aggregated variables" ??
15:18:53 <pgearon> what about just using FIRST?
15:18:58 <AxelPolleres> Lee: axel, yes it is nondeterministic, but it is very explcicitly non-deterministic.
15:19:09 <pgearon> +q
15:19:15 <AndyS> A change to design but NP.
15:19:17 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:19:35 <AndyS> q+
15:19:54 <AxelPolleres> Paul: FIRST is fine in conncection with order by. 
15:20:03 <SteveH> q+
15:20:06 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:20:14 <AxelPolleres> ... without order by SAMPLE is just the same as FIRST.
15:20:25 <SteveH> q-
15:21:08 <AxelPolleres> Andy: seems there are different assumptions here, don't see how you can sort the variabes coming out of a group by.
15:21:21 <SteveH> in SQL yu can do AGGREGATE (?x ORDER BY ...)
15:21:30 <AndyS> MIN or MAX nearly= FIRST?
15:21:31 <AxelPolleres> paul: honestly, it's a while since I chekced that in SQL
15:22:40 <SteveH> action?
15:22:57 <LeeF> PROPOSED: To include aggregates for COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG and discuss others down the road
15:23:04 <SteveH> seconded
15:23:15 <bglimm> +1
15:23:17 <AndyS> +1
15:23:18 <pgearon> +1
15:23:29 <LeeF> RESOLVED: To include aggregates for COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG and discuss others down the road, no abstentions or objections
15:23:35 <iv_an_ru> +1
15:24:03 <AxelPolleres> +0.95 (guess we can get around the involved issues, so fair enough)
15:24:30 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's close... some more hint for those at ISWC
15:25:09 <AxelPolleres> ... we have a panel at ISWC, Wendesday, Oct 28, 10:30
15:25:34 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: When  will the agenda go out for F2F, was due.
15:25:49 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: aggregate issues, for sure.
15:25:58 <AxelPolleres> ... stil soliciting issues.
15:26:19 <AxelPolleres> Lee, Axel to do the agenda by end of the week.
15:26:31 <AndyS> Tues OK : Mon - not first thing
15:27:15 <LeeF> adjourned
15:27:15 <bglimm> Zakim, unute me
15:27:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unute me', bglimm
15:27:19 <bglimm> yes
15:27:21 <Zakim> -KjetilK
15:27:26 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:27:26 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:27:27 <AxelPolleres> Axel: suggest we collect issues by end of the week and on next call discuss how to schedule them best
15:27:27 <Zakim> -SimonS
15:27:28 <Zakim> -kasei
15:27:30 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:27:32 <AndyS> Thanks all.
15:27:33 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:27:40 <AndyS> Was not me @AndyS then!
15:27:44 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:27:44 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:27:45 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
15:27:53 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who was on the phone?
15:27:53 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres.
15:28:00 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, list attendees
15:28:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.518.276.aabb, +3539149aacc, pgearon, AxelPolleres, +0186528aadd, kasei, +7.950.aaee, AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, +049261287aagg, SimonS,
15:28:03 <Zakim> ... SteveH, LukeWM, OlivierCorby, EricP, KjetilK, chimezie, LeeF, Sandro
15:28:19 <pgearon> ericP, can you let me know when the renaming and other updates are done please? I'll update cvs once you let me know
15:29:21 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC.  DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW.  SRCLINESUSED=00000498