Chatlog 2009-09-08

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<SimonKJ> Present: LeeF, swh, kasei, AndyS, pgearon, bglimm, SimonKJ, bijan, chimezie, ivanh, ericP, SimonS, SteveH

13:52:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:52:06 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:52:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:52:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:52:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:52:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:11 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:52:11 <trackbot> Date: 08 September 2009
13:52:12 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:52:12 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:30 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:52:41 <LeeF> Agenda:
13:52:48 <LeeF> LeeF has changed the topic to: Agenda:
13:52:57 <LeeF> Regrets: AlexP, Orri
13:53:39 <LeeF> Possible regrets from Kjetil
13:57:35 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:02:12 <bijan> zakim, who is here?
14:02:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, swh, pgearon, ??P11, +1.919.663.aacc
14:02:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, SimonKJ, bglimm, swh, Zakim, RRSAgent, iv_an_ru, pgearon, AndyS, ivan, LeeF, karl, kasei, trackbot, ericP
14:04:17 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, swh, pgearon, bijan (muted), SimonKJ
14:06:06 <LeeF> Scribe: SimonKJ
14:06:19 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:06:48 <AndyS> I was there - not regrets
14:07:48 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at, noting that AndyS was present
14:08:04 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2009-09-15 @ 15:00 BST / 10:00 EDT, Alex Passant to scribe (Scribe List) 
14:08:25 <LeeF> ->
14:09:04 <bijan> I might call in if reasonable.
14:09:13 <SteveH> I'm at risk
14:09:46 <SimonKJ> SimonKJ still fighting the approval process
14:10:08 <pgearon> The approval has to come from my manager, who has been conferencing and traveling a lot lately, so I've yet to hear
14:10:14 <chimezie> I might be able to call in for portions of the agenda
14:11:02 <SimonKJ> if I cannot make it in person I have scheduled the time so will definitely call in
14:12:00 <SteveH> SWIG
14:12:48 <kasei> hearing the echo here
14:13:47 <SimonKJ> direct all efforts to getting out the first public working draft; shooting for end of Sep but will likely slip into October
14:14:32 <chimezie> Im not certain i can state the additional 30 mins
14:14:39 <SteveH> I can't do 90 today
14:14:44 <chimezie> i.e., some days I'll be able to stay over  - others not so much
14:14:44 <kasei> I may have trouble with the last few minutes (have to dash across campus to another meeting), but most of the extra 30 min should be OK.
14:14:45 <SimonKJ> to that end will schedule the next few teleconferences for 90mins rather than 60; who cannot make 90
14:15:14 <SimonKJ> will at least try to do a few in a row starting next week
14:15:39 <ericP> i will likely have conflicts from a couple weeks onwards
14:15:53 <bijan> OWL is finished CR and heading toward PR.
14:16:02 <bijan> XMLLiteral is no longer at risk, but accepted.
14:16:45 <ivanh> RDB2RDF should start any day (only admin left)
14:16:54 <LeeF> topic: FPWD Status Check 
14:17:25 <LeeF> ->
14:17:41 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-16
14:17:42 <trackbot> ACTION-16 Send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } closed
14:17:52 <AndyS> Eric helped with CVS - actions 87 and 88 are done.
14:19:14 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-87
14:19:14 <trackbot> ACTION-87 Find the editor's draft of features and rats closed
14:19:18 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-88
14:19:18 <trackbot> ACTION-88 Figure out where to find SPARQL2 CVS edit space closed
14:19:42 <AndyS> Query doc is:
14:20:09 <SteveH> I think we both answered, go andy
14:20:09 <Prateek> Prateek has joined #sparql
14:21:33 <AndyS> trackbot, close ACTION-84
14:21:33 <trackbot> ACTION-84 And SteveH to decide whether FPWD should be inegrated or only new features closed
14:23:22 <LeeF> ISSUE: Can variable used as aliases for expressions be themselves used in other expressions?
14:23:22 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-39 - Can variable used as aliases for expressions be themselves used in other expressions? ; please complete additional details at .
14:23:24 <AndyS> Example :  SELECT (?x+?y) AS ?z (?z+1) AS ?w
14:24:33 <chimezie> why not make it an issue then, since all we have is an 'issue' tracker
14:24:38 <chimezie> and note that we know a workaround
14:26:49 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to go through issues list, figure out status, which need to be discussed in TCs, which have pending actions, which can be resolved
14:26:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Go through issues list, figure out status, which need to be discussed in TCs, which have pending actions, which can be resolved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-09-15].
14:28:40 <ericP> q+ to ask if xmlspec variants are acceptable
14:28:45 <SimonKJ> we have editors for the SPARQL 11 update document and update language.
14:29:12 <ericP> 43
14:29:29 <SimonKJ> where does the work on RESTful operations, and correspondence to update protocol go?
14:29:59 <chimezie> how much administrative overhead do we introduce with separate docs/editors
14:30:02 <chimezie> ?
14:30:03 <SimonKJ> should RESTful operations go into the update language or in the protocol (reduce number of docs from 3 to 2)
14:30:13 <chimezie> if not much, seems putting them in one document makes sense to me
14:30:26 <SimonKJ> ericP in favor of separate documents as they seem orthogonal
14:30:48 <SimonS_> +1  to having separate documents
14:31:21 <bijan> Overhead : Maintaining links between, multiple documents for people to sort through, multiple documents to be reviewed and to engage with
14:31:26 <chimezie> s/putting them in one document/separating them
14:31:36 <bijan> Advantages : modular, can advance at different rates, etc.
14:33:03 <AndyS> Suggest separate docs at the moment, esp as content accumulated - can later merge in.  Reverse is harder if has been published.
14:33:54 <ivanh> return format?
14:34:04 <chimezie> +1 on AndyS's argument for having the second option open at a later point
14:34:18 <ivanh> so the number is 6 or 7...
14:34:35 <ivanh> s/return/result/
14:34:41 <bijan> But it's still "in our space"
14:35:00 <ivanh> json format?
14:35:54 <SimonKJ> if the JSON format is just a note, we still have it in our space and its still active (URL?)
14:36:26 <AndyS> ->
14:37:15 <ericP> q
14:37:16 <ivanh> -> OWL Overivew document
14:37:41 <bijan> A good home page would be fine
14:37:44 <ericP> q+ to talk about XQuery/XSLT/F&O
14:37:55 <LeeF> ack ericP
14:37:55 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if xmlspec variants are acceptable and to talk about XQuery/XSLT/F&O
14:38:01 <bijan> This image would be useful:
14:38:53 <bijan> In OWL, the Wiki maintained cross links pretty well. but it's not just technical, it's editing, e.g., "see results format"
14:39:13 <ivanh> q+
14:39:16 <AndyS> Info : The Q doc has a results example + link.
14:39:37 <LeeF> ack ivan
14:40:55 <bijan> Really!??!?! Won't they wave it for content that's been IPR reviewed!??!
14:42:29 <bijan> I'll note the HTML5 spec management tool:
14:43:21 <LeeF> (1) SPARQL/Query 1.1  (2) SPARQL/Update 1.0   (3) SPARQL/Protocol 1.1  (4) Service Description  (5) RESTful Update operations  (6) SPARQL + entailment 
14:44:02 <AndyS> q+ to ask about 3
14:44:15 <AndyS> (as convenient)
14:44:24 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:44:24 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about 3
14:44:36 <SimonKJ> proposing 6 documents to get us to FPWD, can argue in the future around the RESTful operations
14:45:59 <SimonKJ> updates to (3) raise the WSDL issue (AndyS?) 
14:46:16 <AndyS> +1 to protocol 1.1
14:46:37 <SimonKJ> proposal to version (3) as 1.1 in keeping with the agreement for (1)
14:46:57 <SimonKJ> AndyS - want to expand on the issue?
14:47:15 <AndyS> After call?
14:47:16 <bijan>
14:49:23 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to work with Axel to find editors for protocol, service description, and RESTful Update operations this week
14:49:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Work with Axel to find editors for protocol, service description, and RESTful Update operations this week [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-09-15].
14:51:08 <LeeF> topic: Custom aggregates 
14:51:09 <LeeF>
14:51:59 <SteveH> +1 to custom aggregates
14:52:37 <pgearon> I actually liked Andy's suggestion of marking functions that are aggregate functions
14:52:48 <pgearon> (even though other's didn't seem to enjoy the syntax)
14:53:06 <SteveH> Can't you always tell from the syntactic position?
14:53:12 <SteveH> eg. HAVING v's FILTER?
14:53:27 <pgearon> I'm just commenting on custom aggregate extensions here, not the standard ones
14:54:11 <SteveH> q+
14:54:14 <chimezie> we may need some syntactic sugar
14:54:17 <pgearon> no, because standard functions could appear in HAVING (though not vice-versa)
14:54:20 <LeeF> ack SteveH
14:54:59 <pgearon> +q
14:55:05 <LeeF> ack pgearon
14:55:48 <chimezie> +1 readability 
14:56:03 <SimonKJ> pgearon - issue is not about processing the HAVING clause, but readability
14:56:24 <AndyS> HAVING (fn:myFunction(agg:mycount(?x))) has an aggrgeate and a regular function
14:56:35 <SimonKJ> issue is that extension functions in a WHERE clause are relatively easy to understand, but in a HAVING clause may be harder to understand
14:59:05 <SteveH> I'm a 0 FWIW
14:59:28 <SteveH> if someone has a syntax that's not horrible I'd be more in favour
14:59:41 <SteveH> CUSTOM(uri, ...) would be less horrible
15:01:41 <SimonKJ> AndyS - where is the update spec? LeeF, an update of the doc is due a week from today
15:01:52 <ivanh> bye everybody
15:01:53 <SteveH> bye all
15:01:56 <SimonKJ> bye
15:01:57 <bglimm> bye
15:04:39 <bijan> Pointer to xml spec langauge?
15:05:08 <bijan> Anolis, I beleive, just uses IDs on elements.
15:05:40 <Zakim> -bijan
15:07:14 <AndyS> SimonKJ - WSDL?
15:08:05 <SimonKJ> AndyS - I assume this is a previous topic rearing up again, is there a link to the conversation?
15:08:38 <Zakim> -ericP
15:09:03 <AndyS> Not a specifc thread - was recurring issue for protocol because we seemed to be first to use WSDL for HTTP for a spec.
15:09:39 <AndyS> And to impl we less than many SOAP impls - it was (and is?) not popular for SPARQL.
15:11:52 <pgearon> quoll71
15:13:16 <AndyS> CEST
15:13:56 <AndyS>
15:14:58 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:14:59 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, +1.518.276.aaaa, kasei, AndyS, +1.312.863.aabb, swh, pgearon, Bijan, bglimm, SimonKJ, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ivan, +49.261.287.aadd, ericP, SimonS_, +1.937.775.aaee