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Chatlog 2009-06-30
From SPARQL Working Group
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13:55:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277 13:55:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:55:45 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 13:55:45 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2009 13:55:49 <LeeF> Zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:55:49 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:55:58 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF 13:56:03 <LeeF> Scribenick: KjetilK 13:56:12 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-30 13:56:12 <AndyS> Present: LeeF, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, bglimm, pgearon, Prateek, Orri, EricP, AxelPolleres, swh, LukeWM, KjetilK, SimonS, iv_an_ru 13:57:45 <iv_an_ru> Orri got problem with his connection so he is missing today. 13:57:47 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:58:19 <AndyS> Request for agenda addition: under "update" to discuss whether to start with the submission as the strawman for the update language. Are there alternatives to consider? (After strawman -- start throwing rocks at it to test it out) 13:58:35 <LeeF> AndyS, ack 14:00:21 <LeeF> Regrets: Chimezie, SimonKJ, Bijan 14:00:57 <AndyS> bglimm, if there is an example, I'd appreciate seeing it to be informed about the issues but theer is no time-critical issue here for me. 14:01:22 <bglimm> I can check the OWL tests for one, but I haven't done that yet 14:01:51 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 14:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, kasei (muted), AlexPassant, bglimm (muted) 14:05:28 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 14:05:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, kasei (muted), AlexPassant, bglimm (muted), pgearon, Prateek 14:06:29 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office 14:06:34 <AndyS> Scribenick: AndyS 14:06:53 <AndyS> Scribe: AndyS 14:06:56 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-23 14:07:19 <bglimm> +1 14:07:54 <AndyS> RESOLVED Accepted the minutes of the meeting of 2009-06-23 14:08:35 <AxelPolleres> regrets for next week 14:08:49 <AndyS> Next meeting: July 7 14:10:05 <LeeF> Please let me know if you'll be on holiday anytime over the rest of the summer 14:10:16 <AndyS> RDB2RDB WG: Now has 2 co-chairs. 14:10:33 <AndyS> ... and will start soon. 14:11:07 <AndyS> Nothing else from liaisons 14:11:22 <AndyS> Topic: Open Actions 14:11:35 <AndyS> LeeF: Please close your open actions. 14:11:45 <AndyS> Topic: FPWD of F&R 14:12:09 <AndyS> Input for charter for phase II of SPARQL WG 14:12:32 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ version 1.114 as First Public Working Draft 14:12:35 <AlexPassant> wrt open actions, can LeeF or AxelPolleres close http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/43 ? (already discussed previously) 14:13:22 <AndyS> incorporates changes from last week: text for time permitting features, language fixes, OWL Direct semantics included 14:13:50 <AxelPolleres> alex, done 14:13:51 <AndyS> Any reservations? 14:14:03 <AndyS> (none) 14:14:15 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ version 1.114 as First Public Working Draft 14:14:29 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ version 1.114 as First Public Working Draft 14:15:01 <AndyS> No objections or abstentions 14:15:08 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:15:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, kasei (muted), AlexPassant, bglimm (muted), pgearon, Prateek, EricP, Orri, AxelPolleres, [Garlik] 14:15:10 <Zakim> [Garlik] has swh, LukeWM 14:15:17 <LeeF> ACTION: Eric to work with Lee to publish FPWD of features & rationales 14:15:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Work with Lee to publish FPWD of features & rationales [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-07]. 14:15:44 <AndyS> LeeF: Editors will continue to work on it. 14:15:50 <ericP> F&R is valid HTML according to http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ 14:16:32 <AndyS> AndyS: Comments will arrive now. 14:16:40 <AxelPolleres> q+ 14:16:55 <AndyS> LeeF: We do not need to formally track at the level of CR etc. 14:16:57 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres 14:18:27 <AndyS> Axel: Comments timeframe? 14:18:29 <AndyS> q+ 14:18:45 <kasei> the F&R TOC has a 5.5, but it doesn't actually exist (?) 14:18:56 <LeeF> invisible ink? 14:18:59 <AndyS> ack me 14:19:18 <AndyS> EricP: ... a deadline to hint at timeliness 14:19:19 <kasei> 5.3 and 5.4 in invisible ink, certainly, but 5.5 shows up in the TOC :) 14:20:39 <ericP> http://validator.w3.org/checklink?url=http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#results1 found a broken link to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/owl.css and three broken fragments: Entailment_status, Subqueries_issues, Basic_federated_querys_status 14:21:00 <AndyS> LeeF: end August? LC is autumn. 14:21:03 <AlexPassant> kasei: remove it from the TOC, is there a way to change the publishing action from 1.114 to 1.115 ? 14:21:31 <AxelPolleres> q+ to say why 31 august fine with me. 14:21:40 <ericP> KjetilK, AlexPassant, do you know where i should find owl.css? 14:21:57 <AlexPassant> ericP: I removed that link - was useless (comes from the OWL template we re-used) 14:22:05 <AndyS> The Scribe: Scribe notes the resolution has the wrong version now. 14:23:00 <AndyS> LeeF: Can publish before comment period because it's a WD. 14:23:23 <AndyS> EricP: Just need to note that comments may be relative to first version. 14:23:26 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres 14:23:26 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to say why 31 august fine with me. 14:23:52 <AndyS> Axel: Vaction season is fast approaching 14:24:06 <AndyS> q+ 14:24:10 <kasei> AlexPassant: 2.8.5 needs to be dropped, too, I think. 14:24:38 <AndyS> ack me 14:25:00 <KjetilK> +1 to that 14:25:14 <AndyS> LeeF: Suggest saying comments to mailing list, no date. 14:25:18 <ericP> AlexPassant, KjetilK, where should #Subqueries_issues point? 14:25:43 <AndyS> ... new resolution ... 14:25:56 <kasei> yes 14:26:08 <kasei> (what ericP said) 14:26:34 <AndyS> (formatting/editorial discussion) 14:27:00 <KjetilK> ericP, #Subqueries_discussion probably 14:27:56 <AlexPassant> q+ to ask about last fix 14:31:06 <kasei> sure, but i have nothing to say new from two weeks ago. 14:31:08 <AxelPolleres> q? 14:31:21 <AlexPassant> done from my side as well 14:31:33 <AlexPassant> 1.118 14:31:46 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ version 1.118 as FPWD, with comments to be solicited indefinitely to public-rdf-dawg-comments@w3.org 14:31:52 <ericP> second 14:32:00 <AxelPolleres> +1 14:32:11 <bglimm> +1 14:32:14 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ version 1.118 as FPWD, with comments to be solicited indefinitely to public-rdf-dawg-comments@w3.org 14:32:43 <AndyS> Topic: Service descriptions 14:33:10 <AndyS> No disucssion of HTTP OPTIONs last discussion. Kasei presented his ideas. 14:33:22 <AndyS> LeeF: Short summary? 14:33:49 <AndyS> Kasei: coin URIs. One RDFS class for endpoints. Properties for endpoint to details. 14:33:51 <AxelPolleres> (no objections or abstentions on the proposal to publish ... just for the records) 14:33:58 <AndyS> .. inc dataset description. 14:34:14 <AndyS> ... work with active void2 developement 14:34:23 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions#Strawman_Proposal_for_Service_Description_Vocabulary_and_URIs 14:34:47 <AndyS> LeeF: Who is responsible for HTTP OPTIONS proposal? 14:35:32 <AndyS> ... Jacek 14:35:42 <AxelPolleres> that was jacek, but he told me he is only attending occasionally. 14:35:49 <AndyS> ... feedback? 14:36:05 <swh> +1 to not over specifying 14:36:28 <AndyS> AndyS: Looks like a good start. 14:36:46 <SimonS> +1 Looks like the sweet spots have been hit. 14:36:48 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:36:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, bglimm (muted), pgearon, Prateek, EricP, Orri, AxelPolleres, [Garlik], SimonS, LeeF, KjetilK (muted) 14:36:50 <Zakim> [Garlik] has swh, LukeWM 14:36:50 <AndyS> Steve: Going beyond is getting out of WG scope; less is not useful. 14:36:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see SimonS, LukeWM, AxelPolleres, Prateek, AndyS_, pgearon, bglimm, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, kasei, AlexPassant, AndyS, swh, karl, john-l, iv_an_ru, KjetilK, trackbot, ericP 14:37:59 <bglimm> no strong feelings 14:37:59 <AndyS> AndyS: Would like to proced with this. 14:38:23 <AndyS> q+ to ask about finding descriptions 14:38:24 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about liaison with "void" 14:38:31 <AlexPassant> q- 14:39:08 <KjetilK> ack AndyS 14:39:08 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about finding descriptions 14:40:03 <kasei> agree with AndyS 14:41:04 <AxelPolleres> 2 big blocks: (i) service descriptions (what?) (ii) how to find/serve them (how?) 14:41:24 <AndyS> AndyS: thoughts on how to find descriptions. 3rd party matters a lot but what about services publishing info about themselves? 14:41:59 <kasei> does anyone have thoughts on the "extra" features I list as possibilities in the strawman, especially the first two? 14:42:01 <AndyS> LeeF: Strawman kasei's proposal and start on refinement/discussion. 14:42:05 <swh> q+ to advocate HTTP headers 14:42:17 <AxelPolleres> ack me 14:42:17 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about liaison with "void" 14:42:39 <AndyS> Axel: Liaison with void? Formally? 14:43:13 <SimonS> +q to comment on kaseis extra features 14:43:13 <kasei> Michael Hausenblas asked me to be the point of contact with them, but as mentioned it's less than formal. 14:43:15 <swh> I disagree that we should liase 14:43:41 <AndyS> Be good for someone to keep the WG up-to-date. 14:44:00 <ericP> void is in a space which is likely to shift a whole lot. we should consider our job to link to things playing the void role 14:44:29 <AndyS> swh: Don't sanction one schema. Instead, be neutral - don't refer to outside vocabs. 14:44:37 <ericP> i don't mind using them in examples 14:44:44 <swh> yes, examples is ok 14:45:05 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Adopt kasei's strawman proposal of what goes into a service description (http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions#Strawman_Proposal_for_Service_Description_Vocabulary_and_URIs) and begin to fill in details 14:45:30 <ericP> seocnd 14:45:30 <AxelPolleres> +1 14:45:33 <SimonS> second 14:45:35 <KjetilK> +1 14:45:44 <bglimm> +1 14:45:44 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Adopt kasei's strawman proposal of what goes into a service description (http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions#Strawman_Proposal_for_Service_Description_Vocabulary_and_URIs) and begin to fill in details 14:45:46 <AndyS> No abstentions or objections 14:46:07 <SimonS> q- 14:46:33 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to flesh out service description proposal with initial URI suggestions for features, classes, properties, etc. 14:46:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Flesh out service description proposal with initial URI suggestions for features, classes, properties, etc. [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-07-07]. 14:47:01 <swh> ack me 14:47:01 <Zakim> swh, you wanted to advocate HTTP headers 14:47:01 <AndyS> Topic: Finding service descriptions 14:47:29 <AndyS> swh: Use HTTP headers pointing to a URI. 14:47:52 <AndyS> ... but relative URI needed because sevice does not know what it's external name is 14:48:15 <kasei> it's in the wiki under existing impls., not the strawman. 14:48:42 <LeeF> option 1 - use HTTP header in any GET/HEAD request on the endpoint (with or without a query) 14:48:55 <LeeF> option 2 - use HTTP OPTIONS verb 14:48:59 <AxelPolleres> Steve says ANY http get reauest should have a pointer to the description? 14:49:00 <AndyS> ... URI is the endpoint with or without ?query 14:49:11 <LeeF> option 3 - place service description RDF in a well-known location on the server 14:49:19 <LeeF> option 4 - DESCRIBE query against SPARQL endpoint URI 14:49:22 <ericP> q+ to suggest that [[ SELECT ?foo ?bar { <srvc> <x> ?foo ; <y> ?bar } ]] requires no extension to HTTP tools like apache, iis, ... 14:49:39 <pgearon> +q 14:49:54 <LeeF> option 5 - suggest that endpoints SHOULD answer queries about their own URI 14:49:57 <AndyS> q+ to talk about endpoint URIs and separation from query engine 14:50:20 <swh> what if they don't know their own URI? or the client doesn't know the real one 14:50:26 <LukeWM> q+ 14:50:27 <AndyS> ack EricP 14:50:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to suggest that [[ SELECT ?foo ?bar { <srvc> <x> ?foo ; <y> ?bar } ]] requires no extension to HTTP tools like apache, iis, ... 14:51:00 <AndyS> EricP: Make dft graph have own description in it. 14:51:14 <AndyS> pgearon: Not so sure about thisl 14:51:38 <ericP> but the SPARQL query *is* a GET 14:51:39 <AndyS> ... not RESTful. GET on a web resource. 14:51:51 <swh> q+ to say you can use 4 via 1 14:52:24 <AxelPolleres> ack pgearon 14:52:29 <kasei> another option, which I think no one is going to care for, is a new sparql query method 14:52:30 <AndyS> ack AndyS 14:52:30 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to talk about endpoint URIs and separation from query engine 14:52:34 <ericP> HEAD is the same as GET without the response body 14:53:07 <swh> +1 to AndyS on seperation 14:53:32 <pgearon> ericP, yes, in general, but when used in REST then it is usually used to retrieve metadata 14:53:52 <pgearon> HTTP only says that HEAD *should* start the same as GET 14:54:23 <AndyS> AndyS: issue can be that the protocol and dataset are separate in the service impl 14:56:01 <LeeF> q? 14:56:25 <AndyS> ack LukeWM 14:56:38 <AndyS> LukeWM: option 1 pref 14:56:47 <AndyS> ... avoids multipel requests 14:56:50 <kasei> q+ to worry about difficulty in using OPTIONS 14:57:20 <AndyS> ... creatively, if a service changes frequently, may be an overhead 14:57:21 <ericP> i don't see that there are more reqs required if you query the service than if you HEAD the service 14:57:28 <LeeF> ack swh 14:57:28 <Zakim> swh, you wanted to say you can use 4 via 1 14:57:44 <AndyS> swh: Can do opt 4 with canned describe query. 14:58:00 <ericP> in fact, the contrary, as querying the service gives you the data, where HEADing the service is an extra indirect 14:58:04 <AndyS> ... Garlik store would find it hard to do opt 4 14:58:20 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me 14:58:20 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted 14:58:39 <AndyS> ... differentiates between opt 1 and 4. 14:59:00 <kasei> having trouble keeping track of which option belongs to which number :\ 14:59:19 <LeeF> i'll repeat :) 14:59:24 <AndyS> ... server has broadbased info 14:59:56 <AndyS> (Joseki does not have access to dynamic extensions the query engine may provide) 15:00:07 <LeeF> option 1 - use HTTP header in any GET/HEAD request on the endpoint (with or without a query) 15:00:07 <LeeF> option 2 - use HTTP OPTIONS verb 15:00:07 <LeeF> option 3 - place service description RDF in a well-known location on the server 15:00:07 <LeeF> option 4 - DESCRIBE query against SPARQL endpoint URI 15:00:07 <LeeF> option 5 - suggest that endpoints SHOULD answer queries about their own URI 15:00:23 <LukeWM> ericP, I think it depends on how your application works. If you want to make the query and find out the service description whatever the description, using GET results in fewer requests. 15:00:36 <AndyS> kasei: OPTIONs has costs / difficulties. client libraries can make it tricky. 15:00:41 <swh> +1 to OPTIONS being difficult 15:00:43 <kasei> q+ 15:00:55 <AndyS> LeeF: will send options to the email list 15:01:02 <AxelPolleres> +1 with concern on OPTIONS option 15:01:26 <LeeF> q? 15:01:30 <LeeF> ack kasei 15:01:30 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to worry about difficulty in using OPTIONS and to 15:01:42 <AndyS> LeeF: Next week: Negation, update from strawmans on negation update submission. 15:01:44 <LeeF> option 6 - add a new SPARQL query method alongside SELECT/CONSTRUCT/ASK/DESCRIBE 15:02:03 <AxelPolleres> isn't that just DESCRIBE <endpoint> ? 15:02:04 <KjetilK> DESCRIBE ENDPOINT 15:02:04 <ericP> SELFDESCRIBE ? 15:02:15 <pgearon> I'm fine with option 6, but would still want a REST approach that was equivalent 15:02:23 <AndyS> LeeF: Thx to editors for FPWD. 15:02:25 <kasei> pgearon++ 15:02:26 <Zakim> -Orri 15:02:29 <Zakim> -[Garlik] 15:02:30 <Zakim> -KjetilK 15:02:30 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres 15:02:32 <AndyS> Thx to Eric in advance 15:02:32 <Zakim> -EricP 15:02:32 <Zakim> -bglimm 15:02:33 <Zakim> -LeeF 15:02:33 <Zakim> -AlexPassant 15:02:35 <Zakim> -kasei 15:02:38 <Zakim> -Prateek 15:02:40 <Zakim> -pgearon 15:02:42 <Zakim> -SimonS 15:02:48 <AndyS> ADJOURNED 15:03:30 <kasei> I think it has a lot of issues :) # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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