There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.
It may be helpful to
<sandro> guest: David Charboneau
16:25:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc ←
16:26:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:26:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277 ←
16:26:02 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
16:26:03 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
16:26:03 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2009
16:26:20 <AxelPolleres> zakim, dial suite_a
Axel Polleres: zakim, dial suite_a ←
16:26:20 <Zakim> ok, AxelPolleres; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AxelPolleres; the call is being made ←
16:26:21 <Zakim> SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM has now started ←
16:26:22 <Zakim> +Suite_a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Suite_a ←
16:26:36 <AndyS> zakim, what is the conference code?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, what is the conference code? ←
16:26:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndyS ←
16:26:45 <AxelPolleres> zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:26:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a ←
16:26:58 <AxelPolleres> zakim, suite_a has kasei, AxelPolleres
Axel Polleres: zakim, suite_a has kasei, AxelPolleres ←
16:26:58 <Zakim> +kasei, AxelPolleres; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei, AxelPolleres; got it ←
16:27:16 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
16:27:23 <AndyS> zakim, ??P2 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
16:27:23 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:27:34 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
16:27:41 <bglimm> comming
Birte Glimm: comming ←
16:27:43 <LukeWM> LukeWM is ??P3
Luke Wilson-Mawer: LukeWM is ??P3 ←
16:27:55 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
16:28:02 <LukeWM> zakim, ??P3 is LukeWM
Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, ??P3 is LukeWM ←
16:28:02 <Zakim> +LukeWM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LukeWM; got it ←
16:28:12 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
16:28:12 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
16:28:17 <LukeWM> thanks for getting the phone fixed AxelPolleres
Luke Wilson-Mawer: thanks for getting the phone fixed AxelPolleres ←
16:28:32 <bglimm> hi
Birte Glimm: hi ←
16:28:43 <LukeWM> hi
Luke Wilson-Mawer: hi ←
16:28:51 <AxelPolleres> paul, are you planning to dial in?
Axel Polleres: paul, are you planning to dial in? ←
16:29:27 <Zakim> +yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: +yolanda ←
16:30:25 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2 ←
16:30:39 <AndyS> zakim, mute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, mute me ←
16:30:39 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted ←
16:30:54 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2_Issue_Discussions
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2_Issue_Discussions ←
16:31:15 <AxelPolleres> scribe: AxelPolleres
(Scribe set to Axel Polleres)
16:31:23 <AndyS> Which are the non-contraversail issues that are sort-of closed?
Andy Seaborne: Which are the non-contraversail issues that are sort-of closed? ←
16:31:41 <LeeF> scribenick: LeeF
(Scribe set to Lee Feigenbaum)
16:32:09 <LeeF> rrsagent, pointer?
rrsagent, pointer? ←
16:32:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc#T16-32-09
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc#T16-32-09 ←
16:32:11 <AndyS> OK. Will look
Andy Seaborne: OK. Will look ←
16:32:14 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-F2F2#Day_2:_Morning:_Update_and_Remaining_Query_Issues
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-F2F2#Day_2:_Morning:_Update_and_Remaining_Query_Issues ←
16:32:14 <Zakim> + +1.919.543.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.919.543.aaaa ←
16:32:18 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
zakim, who's here? ←
16:32:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS (muted), LukeWM, bglimm (muted), yolanda, +1.919.543.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS (muted), LukeWM, bglimm (muted), yolanda, +1.919.543.aaaa ←
16:32:21 <Zakim> Suite_a has kasei, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has kasei, AxelPolleres ←
16:32:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see LeeF, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, dcharbon2, Prateek, bglimm, LukeWM, AndyS, ivan, pgearon, karl, KjetilK, kasei, iv_an_ru, sandro, kjetil, ericP, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see LeeF, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, dcharbon2, Prateek, bglimm, LukeWM, AndyS, ivan, pgearon, karl, KjetilK, kasei, iv_an_ru, sandro, kjetil, ericP, trackbot ←
16:32:33 <AndyS> Hi David!
Andy Seaborne: Hi David! ←
16:32:38 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is DavidCharboneau
zakim, aaaa is DavidCharboneau ←
16:32:38 <Zakim> +DavidCharboneau; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +DavidCharboneau; got it ←
16:32:54 <LeeF> dcharbon2: we've been making use of sparql in jazz foundation
David Charboneau: we've been making use of sparql in jazz foundation ←
16:33:09 <LeeF> ... i've implemented a sparql parser on top of an in house triple store known as ???
... i've implemented a sparql parser on top of an in house triple store known as ??? ←
16:33:19 <LeeF> ... been working on our query service which is now built on top of Jena TDB
... been working on our query service which is now built on top of Jena TDB ←
16:33:27 <LeeF> zakim, DavidCharboneau is dcharbon2
zakim, DavidCharboneau is dcharbon2 ←
16:33:27 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dcharbon2; got it ←
16:33:49 <AndyS> The minutes aren't there yet?
Andy Seaborne: The minutes aren't there yet? ←
16:34:04 <LeeF> AndyS, right - just the IRC logs for the moment
AndyS, right - just the IRC logs for the moment ←
16:34:28 <LeeF> zakim, yolanda is Prateek
zakim, yolanda is Prateek ←
16:34:28 <Zakim> +Prateek; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Prateek; got it ←
16:34:53 <LeeF> topic: Update Issues
16:35:01 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues collcetion of update issues
-> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues collcetion of update issues ←
16:35:27 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: first issue is whether to include MODIFY
Axel Polleres: first issue is whether to include MODIFY ←
16:35:43 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/47
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/47 ←
16:36:22 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me ←
16:36:22 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted ←
16:36:44 <LeeF> LukeWM: the issue is around the MODIFY keyword is that it's just syntactic sugar
Luke Wilson-Mawer: the issue is around the MODIFY keyword is that it's just syntactic sugar ←
16:36:55 <LeeF> ... it's like putting 2 GRAPH keywords - one for DELETE and one for INSERT
... it's like putting 2 GRAPH keywords - one for DELETE and one for INSERT ←
16:37:01 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:37:06 <LeeF> ... not sure there's any strong feelings either way
... not sure there's any strong feelings either way ←
16:37:25 <LeeF> ... Kjetil and Paul had a debate on what MODIFY actually means - about whether it implies that you're actually changing a triple instead od deleting and inserting
... Kjetil and Paul had a debate on what MODIFY actually means - about whether it implies that you're actually changing a triple instead od deleting and inserting ←
16:37:56 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: is this about having a single atomic operation ?
Axel Polleres: is this about having a single atomic operation ? ←
16:38:08 <AndyS> Request is suggested to be atomic
Andy Seaborne: Request is suggested to be atomic ←
16:38:09 <LeeF> SteveH: I thought the request was atomic
Steve Harris: I thought the request was atomic ←
16:38:21 <kjetil_> Zakim, what is the code?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, what is the code? ←
16:38:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil_
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil_ ←
16:38:26 <LukeWM> that was my understanding too
Luke Wilson-Mawer: that was my understanding too ←
16:38:28 <LeeF> LeeF: ...and the whole HTTP request can have multiple operations
Lee Feigenbaum: ...and the whole HTTP request can have multiple operations ←
16:38:32 <LukeWM> q?
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q? ←
16:38:49 <LeeF> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
16:39:08 <LeeF> AndyS: it is syntactic sugar, but you want to be able to describe triples to remove and inesrt based on the same pattern
Andy Seaborne: it is syntactic sugar, but you want to be able to describe triples to remove and inesrt based on the same pattern ←
16:39:22 <LeeF> ... doing it in 2 steps isn't good because you want to execute the pattern and then do the deletes & inserts
... doing it in 2 steps isn't good because you want to execute the pattern and then do the deletes & inserts ←
16:39:29 <LeeF> ... that doesn't work with 2 operations
... that doesn't work with 2 operations ←
16:39:32 <LeeF> ... also bnodes
... also bnodes ←
16:39:43 <bglimm> q+
Birte Glimm: q+ ←
16:39:47 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:39:47 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
16:39:48 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
16:39:59 <kjetil_> Zakim, ??P8 is me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, ??P8 is me ←
16:39:59 <Zakim> +kjetil_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kjetil_; got it ←
16:40:06 <AndyS> s/it is syntactic sugar/it is not syntactic sugar/
Andy Seaborne: s/it is syntactic sugar/it is not syntactic sugar/ ←
16:40:07 <LeeF> ack bglimm
ack bglimm ←
16:40:12 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
16:40:12 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
16:40:50 <LeeF> bglimm: <question about atomicity>
Birte Glimm: <question about atomicity> ←
16:41:04 <bglimm> ZAkim, mute me
Birte Glimm: ZAkim, mute me ←
16:41:04 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
16:41:05 <AxelPolleres> q+
Axel Polleres: q+ ←
16:41:11 <AxelPolleres> q-
Axel Polleres: q- ←
16:41:13 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: the understanding from discussions with pgearon is that one HTTP request can have multiple operations which are all atomic
Axel Polleres: the understanding from discussions with pgearon is that one HTTP request can have multiple operations which are all atomic ←
16:41:40 <kjetil_> Zakim, unmute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:41:40 <Zakim> kjetil_ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should no longer be muted ←
16:41:56 <AndyS> zakim, mute me please
Andy Seaborne: zakim, mute me please ←
16:41:56 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted ←
16:42:48 <AndyS> The whole blank node & update thing needs sorting out.
Andy Seaborne: The whole blank node & update thing needs sorting out. ←
16:42:50 <LeeF> kjetil: my main concern has been that things shouldn't be too verbose to write
Kjetil Kjernsmo: my main concern has been that things shouldn't be too verbose to write ←
16:43:39 <LeeF> yesterday we punted some /Query bnode issues over to the editors (*cough*) so I'd be inclined to do the same (for now) for update
yesterday we punted some /Query bnode issues over to the editors (*cough*) so I'd be inclined to do the same (for now) for update ←
16:43:46 <LukeWM> yes
Luke Wilson-Mawer: yes ←
16:43:47 <AndyS> +1 to kjetil's desire for useability
Andy Seaborne: +1 to kjetil's desire for useability ←
16:44:04 <LukeWM> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/gen.html
Luke Wilson-Mawer: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/gen.html ←
16:44:10 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/
http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/ ←
16:44:51 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
16:44:54 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
ack LukeWM ←
16:45:01 <LeeF> LeeF: sounds like consensus for keeping MODIFY
Lee Feigenbaum: sounds like consensus for keeping MODIFY ←
16:45:13 <LeeF> LukeWM: think we should keep it
Luke Wilson-Mawer: think we should keep it ←
16:45:46 <kjetil_> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
16:46:09 <LeeF> PROPOSED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language
PROPOSED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language ←
16:46:11 <kjetil_> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
16:46:28 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
16:46:30 <kjetil_> +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 ←
16:46:35 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me ←
16:46:35 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted ←
16:46:38 <bglimm> +1
Birte Glimm: +1 ←
16:47:16 <dcharbon2> +1
David Charboneau: +1 ←
16:48:30 <LeeF> AndyS: Hesitant to close issues without an editor present
Andy Seaborne: Hesitant to close issues without an editor present ←
16:48:48 <LeeF> PROPOSED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors
PROPOSED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors ←
16:49:08 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
16:49:13 <AndyS> Good to record the consensus.
Andy Seaborne: Good to record the consensus. ←
16:49:29 <LeeF> RESOLVED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors, no objetions or abstentions
RESOLVED: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors, no objetions or abstentions ←
16:49:52 <LukeWM> not sure what that was about
Luke Wilson-Mawer: not sure what that was about ←
16:50:20 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: next thing is INSERT vs. INSERT DATA
Axel Polleres: next thing is INSERT vs. INSERT DATA ←
16:50:29 <AndyS> Maybe INSERT DATA is a bad name - too close to INSERT. ADD ?
Andy Seaborne: Maybe INSERT DATA is a bad name - too close to INSERT. ADD ? ←
16:50:30 <LeeF> LeeF: i thought it was more of a misunderstanding then an issue
Lee Feigenbaum: i thought it was more of a misunderstanding then an issue ←
16:51:20 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
16:51:37 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: next are issues 18 and 19
Axel Polleres: next are issues 18 and 19 ←
16:51:45 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
16:52:11 <LeeF> LukeWM: i think the security issues relates to subselects and the way requests are defined
Luke Wilson-Mawer: i think the security issues relates to subselects and the way requests are defined ←
16:52:49 <LeeF> LukeWM: if you are able to do selects or subselects in an update query, is anyone can implement separate endpoints (one for select and one for update) ?
Luke Wilson-Mawer: if you are able to do selects or subselects in an update query, is anyone can implement separate endpoints (one for select and one for update) ? ←
16:52:52 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
16:52:52 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
16:52:55 <LeeF> SteveH: I don't think that's an issue
Steve Harris: I don't think that's an issue ←
16:53:30 <LeeF> LukeWM: the idea of having a separate endpoint for select as for update for avoiding sql-injection style attacks
Luke Wilson-Mawer: the idea of having a separate endpoint for select as for update for avoiding sql-injection style attacks ←
16:53:39 <AndyS> Woudl be issue for INSERT inside SELECT 9as query)?
Andy Seaborne: Woudl be issue for INSERT inside SELECT 9as query)? ←
16:53:41 <LeeF> ... if both can be in one endpoint, i think in the real world people will only implement the one
... if both can be in one endpoint, i think in the real world people will only implement the one ←
16:55:25 <LeeF> AndyS: document will have to have a security concerns section
Andy Seaborne: document will have to have a security concerns section ←
16:55:50 <LeeF> ... it's easy to make mistakes in being setup to accept POSTed queries
... it's easy to make mistakes in being setup to accept POSTed queries ←
16:56:16 <LeeF> zakim, Suite_A has sandro, kasei, AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH
zakim, Suite_A has sandro, kasei, AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH ←
16:56:17 <Zakim> kasei was already listed in Suite_a, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei was already listed in Suite_a, LeeF ←
16:56:19 <Zakim> AxelPolleres was already listed in Suite_a, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres was already listed in Suite_a, LeeF ←
16:56:21 <Zakim> +sandro, LeeF, SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro, LeeF, SteveH; got it ←
16:56:45 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
16:57:29 <LeeF> SteveH: what concerns me is LOAD, which requires an HTTP request
Steve Harris: what concerns me is LOAD, which requires an HTTP request ←
16:57:41 <LeeF> LeeF: Is that a DOS-type worry?
Lee Feigenbaum: Is that a DOS-type worry? ←
16:57:49 <LeeF> SteveH: not only that, but also a redirect type attack
Steve Harris: not only that, but also a redirect type attack ←
16:57:53 <AndyS> AndyS: Might want to discuss/define the case of being able to add triples but not much else.
Andy Seaborne: Might want to discuss/define the case of being able to add triples but not much else. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:58:34 <LeeF> SteveH: my preferred solution would be some sort of profile which wouldn't implement these features
Steve Harris: my preferred solution would be some sort of profile which wouldn't implement these features ←
16:59:03 <LeeF> (in response to LeeF asking whether we're looking at giving advice or doing something more concrete)
(in response to LeeF asking whether we're looking at giving advice or doing something more concrete) ←
16:59:07 <AxelPolleres> "secure profile"
Axel Polleres: "secure profile" ←
16:59:18 <LeeF> AndyS: it will need to go into the Security section
Andy Seaborne: it will need to go into the Security section ←
17:00:10 <AxelPolleres> ... wouldn't have any constructs that need "dereferencing of URIs (LOAF, FROM ...)
Axel Polleres: ... wouldn't have any constructs that need "dereferencing of URIs (LOAF, FROM ...) ←
17:00:33 <AxelPolleres> ... affects: query, update, servicedescription?
Axel Polleres: ... affects: query, update, servicedescription? ←
17:00:44 <kjetil_> 403
Kjetil Kjernsmo: 403 ←
17:02:02 <LeeF> LeeF: worth noting that FROM doesn't require an HTTP request
Lee Feigenbaum: worth noting that FROM doesn't require an HTTP request ←
17:02:20 <AxelPolleres> FROM can be ok, if we talk about a local copy in the store, you mean, yes?
Axel Polleres: FROM can be ok, if we talk about a local copy in the store, you mean, yes? ←
17:02:36 <kjetil_> yeah, I think it would be reasonable to use 403 when the server actively refuses a certain query based on the query
Kjetil Kjernsmo: yeah, I think it would be reasonable to use 403 when the server actively refuses a certain query based on the query ←
17:03:34 <AxelPolleres> steve: protocol also affected: you can do dataset management
Steve Harris: protocol also affected: you can do dataset management [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:03:39 <LeeF> LeeF: sounds like the main thing we're talking about is having vocabulary/terminology ro refer to the "safe" parts of Query and Update
Lee Feigenbaum: sounds like the main thing we're talking about is having vocabulary/terminology ro refer to the "safe" parts of Query and Update ←
17:04:25 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:04:26 <LeeF> SteveH: yes, possibly flag the sections and give a URI in the service description that refers to the parts of the language not flagged
Steve Harris: yes, possibly flag the sections and give a URI in the service description that refers to the parts of the language not flagged ←
17:04:55 <kjetil_> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
17:05:06 <LeeF> sandro: "offline operation" ? "two party operation" ?
Sandro Hawke: "offline operation" ? "two party operation" ? ←
17:05:06 <AxelPolleres> ack andys
Axel Polleres: ack andys ←
17:05:37 <LeeF> AndyS: finding words and terminology is a lighterweight approach then minting a URI and doing full conformance for profiles
Andy Seaborne: finding words and terminology is a lighterweight approach then minting a URI and doing full conformance for profiles ←
17:05:57 <LeeF> ... good to pull these things out and identify them as things people need to think about
... good to pull these things out and identify them as things people need to think about ←
17:06:24 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: maybe we can ask the editors of Query and Update to start with such a security section summarizing the issues and see if it seems to lead to any sort of profile
Axel Polleres: maybe we can ask the editors of Query and Update to start with such a security section summarizing the issues and see if it seems to lead to any sort of profile ←
17:06:29 <LeeF> ack kjetil
ack kjetil ←
17:07:11 <LeeF> kjetil: perhaps instead of flagging, just summarize security issues and allow implementors to return 403 if security implications are too severe
Kjetil Kjernsmo: perhaps instead of flagging, just summarize security issues and allow implementors to return 403 if security implications are too severe ←
17:07:52 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
17:07:52 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
17:08:46 <LeeF> ACTION: Steve to summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged
ACTION: Steve to summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged ←
17:08:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged [on Steve Harris - due 2009-11-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-135 - Summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged [on Steve Harris - due 2009-11-10]. ←
17:09:30 <LeeF> ACTION: Axel to ask Paul to look at security section in Update document
ACTION: Axel to ask Paul to look at security section in Update document ←
17:09:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Ask Paul to look at security section in Update document [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-11-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-136 - Ask Paul to look at security section in Update document [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-11-10]. ←
17:09:53 <LeeF> ISSUE-19: see ACTION-135 and ACTION-136
ISSUE-19: see ACTION-135 and ACTION-136 ←
17:09:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-19 Security issues on SPARQL/UPdate notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-19 Security issues on SPARQL/UPdate notes added ←
17:10:03 <LeeF> ACTION-135: this applies to ISSUE-19
ACTION-135: this applies to ISSUE-19 ←
17:10:03 <trackbot> ACTION-135 Summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-135 Summarize Query security issues in security section once document has been merged notes added ←
17:10:06 <LeeF> ACTION-136: this applies to ISSUE-19
ACTION-136: this applies to ISSUE-19 ←
17:10:06 <trackbot> ACTION-136 Ask Paul to look at security section in Update document notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-136 Ask Paul to look at security section in Update document notes added ←
17:10:24 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what can and should we say about concurrency in the spec?
Axel Polleres: what can and should we say about concurrency in the spec? ←
17:10:36 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/18
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/18 ←
17:10:40 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:12:48 <AxelPolleres> that realtes ISUE-26
Axel Polleres: that realtes ISUE-26 ←
17:12:51 <LeeF> ISSUE-18: see also ISSUE-26
17:12:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 Concurrency in SPARQL/update notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-18 Concurrency in SPARQL/update notes added ←
17:13:55 <LeeF> LeeF: steve's conversation with pgearon seemed to say that pgearon intended multiple operations within an update request to be atomic
Lee Feigenbaum: steve's conversation with pgearon seemed to say that pgearon intended multiple operations within an update request to be atomic ←
17:14:07 <LeeF> SteveH: would like an opt out clause from this requirement
Steve Harris: would like an opt out clause from this requirement ←
17:14:15 <LeeF> ... could always issue a "can't be bothered error"
... could always issue a "can't be bothered error" ←
17:14:47 <LeeF> AndyS: if the store has transactions then the whole request gets wrapped in a transaction
Andy Seaborne: if the store has transactions then the whole request gets wrapped in a transaction ←
17:15:25 <LeeF> ... if the underlying store doesn't support transactions, then you can't do it
... if the underlying store doesn't support transactions, then you can't do it ←
17:15:47 <bglimm> +1 to have a choice of supporting transactions or not
Birte Glimm: +1 to have a choice of supporting transactions or not ←
17:16:13 <kjetil_> +1 for a service description about it
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 for a service description about it ←
17:16:14 <LeeF> SteveH: have a small implementation of parts of update and it's not atomic
Steve Harris: have a small implementation of parts of update and it's not atomic ←
17:17:08 <LeeF> LeeF: sounds like requiring atomicity might be a big burden on implementors
Lee Feigenbaum: sounds like requiring atomicity might be a big burden on implementors ←
17:17:19 <AndyS> Can't require it - no very web-like - even SD is rather detaisl - more an SLA thing.
Andy Seaborne: Can't require it - no very web-like - even SD is rather detaisl - more an SLA thing. ←
17:17:26 <LeeF> ... and whether or not i can expect that changes a user/application writer's perspective dramatically
... and whether or not i can expect that changes a user/application writer's perspective dramatically ←
17:19:39 <kjetil_> +1 to default that you don't have it, SD statement that you have it
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 to default that you don't have it, SD statement that you have it ←
17:20:31 <LeeF> kasei: this would be a partial answer to people looking at why there isn't full transaction support
Greg Williams: this would be a partial answer to people looking at why there isn't full transaction support ←
17:20:40 <LeeF> SteveH: what about a protocol feature where you can request atomicity?
Steve Harris: what about a protocol feature where you can request atomicity? ←
17:20:56 <LeeF> kasei: what if you're using a command line?
Greg Williams: what if you're using a command line? ←
17:21:12 <LeeF> SteveH: other systems can implement it other way (like a command line argument)
Steve Harris: other systems can implement it other way (like a command line argument) ←
17:21:16 <LeeF> Sandro: what about a keyword?
Sandro Hawke: what about a keyword? ←
17:21:46 <LeeF> SteveH: Possible option, though some choices might raise expectations of transactions
Steve Harris: Possible option, though some choices might raise expectations of transactions ←
17:21:56 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what's the difference from full transactoinality?
Axel Polleres: what's the difference from full transactoinality? ←
17:22:20 <LeeF> SteveH: you don't get read barriers, you don't get rollback
Steve Harris: you don't get read barriers, you don't get rollback ←
<sandro> guest: Dave (dajobe) Beckett, Yahoo
17:22:39 <LeeF> zakim, Suite_a also has dajobe
zakim, Suite_a also has dajobe ←
17:22:39 <Zakim> +dajobe; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dajobe; got it ←
17:23:04 <LeeF> sandro: also support across multiple requests with read/write consistency
Sandro Hawke: also support across multiple requests with read/write consistency ←
17:24:00 <LeeF> <discussion of what happens when someone trips over the power cord in the middle of an update request>
<discussion of what happens when someone trips over the power cord in the middle of an update request> ←
17:24:21 <AndyS> IMHO not worth defining a formal mechanism with all the details. Unbounded, relates to other work going on (why not distributed transactions? etc?) Not REST :-)
Andy Seaborne: IMHO not worth defining a formal mechanism with all the details. Unbounded, relates to other work going on (why not distributed transactions? etc?) Not REST :-) ←
17:25:03 <LeeF> sandro: issue of whether a conformant Update impl can not do atomic requests is separate from whether there is a flag in the protocol
Sandro Hawke: issue of whether a conformant Update impl can not do atomic requests is separate from whether there is a flag in the protocol ←
17:25:42 <LeeF> steveh: distinction between atomicity and durability
Steve Harris: distinction between atomicity and durability ←
17:26:05 <LeeF> sandro: isolation is that no one else can see it while it's happening
Sandro Hawke: isolation is that no one else can see it while it's happening ←
17:26:41 <SteveH> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACID
Steve Harris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACID ←
17:27:10 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: one option is to make atomicity a requirement - seems to be an overkill
Axel Polleres: one option is to make atomicity a requirement - seems to be an overkill ←
17:27:21 <LeeF> ... second option is that atomicity is an optional feature
... second option is that atomicity is an optional feature ←
17:27:28 <LeeF> ... then need to clarify if it's per implementation or per request
... then need to clarify if it's per implementation or per request ←
17:28:14 <LeeF> SteveH: I think we should require it and let systems that don't implement it raise an error
Steve Harris: I think we should require it and let systems that don't implement it raise an error ←
17:28:39 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:29:45 <LeeF> <discussion of how one would word conformance requirements>
<discussion of how one would word conformance requirements> ←
17:31:50 <LeeF> SteveH: simple implementations of atomicity are easy
Steve Harris: simple implementations of atomicity are easy ←
17:32:13 <AndyS> q?
Andy Seaborne: q? ←
17:32:27 <LeeF> SteveH: "if atomic=1 is in the protocol, then you must guarnatee atomicity"
Steve Harris: "if atomic=1 is in the protocol, then you must guarnatee atomicity" ←
17:32:46 <sandro> "protocol conformant" is to return an error when you're supposed to.
Sandro Hawke: "protocol conformant" is to return an error when you're supposed to. ←
17:34:31 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: do people agree that a request for atomicity belongs in the protocol?
Axel Polleres: do people agree that a request for atomicity belongs in the protocol? ←
17:34:35 <AndyS> no
Andy Seaborne: no ←
17:34:53 <LeeF> AndyS: i don't think it's that clear cut
Andy Seaborne: i don't think it's that clear cut ←
17:35:04 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what would be an alternative?
Axel Polleres: what would be an alternative? ←
17:35:13 <LeeF> AndyS: Make sure we do the same style as other Web application frameworks
Andy Seaborne: Make sure we do the same style as other Web application frameworks ←
17:35:17 <LeeF> ... take the same approach as other people
... take the same approach as other people ←
17:35:25 <LeeF> ... the word atomic is confusing here
... the word atomic is confusing here ←
17:35:27 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:35:31 <LeeF> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
17:35:49 <LeeF> AndyS: i'm not sure you can always tell what atomicity you're going to give when you get a request
Andy Seaborne: i'm not sure you can always tell what atomicity you're going to give when you get a request ←
17:36:38 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I think we need to say something; people expect something
Axel Polleres: I think we need to say something; people expect something ←
17:36:44 <LeeF> AndyS: not saying something does not mean banning it
Andy Seaborne: not saying something does not mean banning it ←
17:36:50 <LeeF> ack sandro
ack sandro ←
17:37:14 <LeeF> sandro: this is no harder to implement -- put it in the language like in SQL -- "begin transaction" and "commit"
Sandro Hawke: this is no harder to implement -- put it in the language like in SQL -- "begin transaction" and "commit" ←
17:37:27 <LeeF> ... doesn't span HTTP requests so no harder then what we're talking about now
... doesn't span HTTP requests so no harder then what we're talking about now ←
17:37:29 <AndyS> WebAPI has gone a different way to SQL.
Andy Seaborne: WebAPI has gone a different way to SQL. ←
17:37:52 <LeeF> SteveH: i think putting it in the request is a sensible approach
Steve Harris: i think putting it in the request is a sensible approach ←
17:38:05 <LeeF> ... perhaps with other terms that don't imply ACID
... perhaps with other terms that don't imply ACID ←
17:38:47 <LeeF> AndyS: WebAPI only has "commit" and "abort" - no explicit "begin"
Andy Seaborne: WebAPI only has "commit" and "abort" - no explicit "begin" ←
17:39:22 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Agreed, there are several possibilities - shouldn't we give advice to the editors, put something in, and get feedback?
Axel Polleres: Agreed, there are several possibilities - shouldn't we give advice to the editors, put something in, and get feedback? ←
17:39:42 <bglimm> So everything is one transaction automatically that runs until I say commit or abort and at that point, I start a new transaction?
Birte Glimm: So everything is one transaction automatically that runs until I say commit or abort and at that point, I start a new transaction? ←
17:39:48 <LeeF> AndyS: I'd suggest not putting anything in the protocol or language and put a discussion point in saying services should consider and may offer atomicity
Andy Seaborne: I'd suggest not putting anything in the protocol or language and put a discussion point in saying services should consider and may offer atomicity ←
17:40:18 <kjetil_> ...and state so in the SD?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ...and state so in the SD? ←
17:40:33 <kjetil_> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
17:40:48 <LeeF> ack kjetil
ack kjetil ←
17:41:05 <LeeF> kjetil: if it is implemented, it should be stated in the service description?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: if it is implemented, it should be stated in the service description? ←
17:41:40 <LeeF> AndyS: goes back to issue of having exact meaning in the service description
Andy Seaborne: goes back to issue of having exact meaning in the service description ←
17:41:50 <LeeF> s/in the service description/tied to terms in the service description
s/in the service description/tied to terms in the service description ←
17:42:00 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: two things - do we want to do something, if so, what do we want to do?
Axel Polleres: two things - do we want to do something, if so, what do we want to do? ←
17:42:11 <AndyS> As an impl issue then we need to ask the impls :-) which is chicken and egg - so define in a later WG after experience
Andy Seaborne: As an impl issue then we need to ask the impls :-) which is chicken and egg - so define in a later WG after experience ←
17:42:12 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
17:42:12 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
17:42:25 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Straw poll: who thinks either Protocol or Update should take a stand about atomicity - wherever it's located, that if you request it, it should be executed atomically
Axel Polleres: Straw poll: who thinks either Protocol or Update should take a stand about atomicity - wherever it's located, that if you request it, it should be executed atomically ←
17:42:30 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
17:42:32 <kasei> 0
Greg Williams: 0 ←
17:42:35 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
17:42:38 <LukeWM> 0
17:42:51 <kjetil_> +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 ←
17:43:03 <LeeF> LeeF: By "take a stand" I mean define an actual mechanism
Lee Feigenbaum: By "take a stand" I mean define an actual mechanism ←
17:43:18 <bglimm> -1 (too complicated to get right in a web setting I think)
Birte Glimm: -1 (too complicated to get right in a web setting I think) ←
17:44:22 <sandro> (Hey, bglimm .... I'm curious how the web setting makes it harder.)
Sandro Hawke: (Hey, bglimm .... I'm curious how the web setting makes it harder.) ←
17:44:45 <bglimm> well, you have less control
Birte Glimm: well, you have less control ←
17:44:46 <AndyS> -1 (too complicated to get right this time round : also need query+update to do some changes)
Andy Seaborne: -1 (too complicated to get right this time round : also need query+update to do some changes) ←
17:44:57 <LeeF> LeeF: 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
17:45:02 <AxelPolleres> 0 (it can be still a part of the sd: extnsibility, if �we don't support it)
Axel Polleres: 0 (it can be still a part of the sd: extnsibility, if �we don't support it) ←
17:45:17 <bglimm> the web is like a distributed database in a sense
Birte Glimm: the web is like a distributed database in a sense ←
17:45:58 <LeeF> LeeF: no consensus - safer route seems to be not to put an explicit mechanism in, but we should probably continue discussion when editor ispresent
Lee Feigenbaum: no consensus - safer route seems to be not to put an explicit mechanism in, but we should probably continue discussion when editor ispresent ←
17:46:10 <kjetil_> AxelPolleres, I understood it so that it wouldn't be a part of the SD, that's why I voted +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: AxelPolleres, I understood it so that it wouldn't be a part of the SD, that's why I voted +1 ←
17:46:16 <bglimm> I think such a spec is non-trivial, there is nothing really worked out on the table and not much of agreement, which makes me think better not
Birte Glimm: I think such a spec is non-trivial, there is nothing really worked out on the table and not much of agreement, which makes me think better not ←
17:46:18 <LeeF> SteveH: there is a risk of certain people being very upset if we don't address this
Steve Harris: there is a risk of certain people being very upset if we don't address this ←
17:46:21 <AndyS> If the editors (or other WG) can propose something in the timescale then great but not critical path.
Andy Seaborne: If the editors (or other WG) can propose something in the timescale then great but not critical path. ←
17:46:29 <LeeF> kasei: more than a risk
Greg Williams: more than a risk ←
17:46:52 <bglimm> +1 to Andy
Birte Glimm: +1 to Andy ←
17:47:00 <sandro> but sparql update operates against some conceptually unified triplestore, not the web.... it seems to me.
Sandro Hawke: but sparql update operates against some conceptually unified triplestore, not the web.... it seems to me. ←
17:47:36 <kasei> http codes 202 and 409 interesting at protocol level for this stuff
Greg Williams: http codes 202 and 409 interesting at protocol level for this stuff ←
17:47:51 <sandro> sandro: if SPARQL doesn't say anything about transactions, it will be derided by at least the database commuity.
Sandro Hawke: if SPARQL doesn't say anything about transactions, it will be derided by at least the database commuity. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:48:05 <bglimm> well, but w
Birte Glimm: well, but w ←
17:48:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/20
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/20 ←
17:48:15 <bglimm> ups, didn't mean to send that
Birte Glimm: ups, didn't mean to send that ←
17:49:14 <LeeF> SteveH: my experience of implementing this and using it in anger is that it's very annoying to have to explicitly create graphs before writing to them
Steve Harris: my experience of implementing this and using it in anger is that it's very annoying to have to explicitly create graphs before writing to them ←
17:49:58 <LeeF> ... currently in the update spec graphs must be explicitly created before they are used
... currently in the update spec graphs must be explicitly created before they are used ←
17:50:33 <AxelPolleres> SELECT ?G { GRAPH ?G {}}
Axel Polleres: SELECT ?G { GRAPH ?G {}} ←
17:51:03 <AndyS> +1 to SteveH - may not have been a good design choice in hindsight.
Andy Seaborne: +1 to SteveH - may not have been a good design choice in hindsight. ←
17:52:01 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
17:52:03 <LeeF> LeeF: is it important to be able to create an empty graph?
Lee Feigenbaum: is it important to be able to create an empty graph? ←
17:52:05 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
ack LukeWM ←
17:52:07 <AndyS> Flip to "test if exists else error"
Andy Seaborne: Flip to "test if exists else error" ←
17:52:29 <LeeF> LukeWM: someone might want to check for existence of graph, which might mean something even if it's empty
Luke Wilson-Mawer: someone might want to check for existence of graph, which might mean something even if it's empty ←
17:52:38 <AndyS> DROP <graph> ; INSERT DATA <graph> {...}
Andy Seaborne: DROP <graph> ; INSERT DATA <graph> {...} ←
17:52:52 <LeeF> good test, Andy
good test, Andy ←
17:53:04 <kjetil_> +1 to that
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 to that ←
17:53:08 <AndyS> CLEAR <graph> ; INSERT DATA <graph> {...} -- so empty graphs exist albeit temporarily
Andy Seaborne: CLEAR <graph> ; INSERT DATA <graph> {...} -- so empty graphs exist albeit temporarily ←
17:54:07 <LeeF> SteveH: 4store supports empty graphs, our internal store doesn't support it
Steve Harris: 4store supports empty graphs, our internal store doesn't support it ←
17:54:51 <LeeF> dajobe: empty graphs need to be supported
Dave Beckett: empty graphs need to be supported ←
17:54:56 <LeeF> LeeF: empty graphs need to be supported
Lee Feigenbaum: empty graphs need to be supported ←
17:55:43 <AndyS> How are you going to do locking across operations? :-)
Andy Seaborne: How are you going to do locking across operations? :-) ←
17:56:13 <LeeF> Consensus at F2F2 is that the Update langauge & semantics should support the notion of a graph that exists but is empty
Consensus at F2F2 is that the Update langauge & semantics should support the notion of a graph that exists but is empty ←
17:56:29 <LeeF> ISSUE-20: Consensus at F2F2 is that the Update langauge & semantics should support the notion of a graph that exists but is empty
ISSUE-20: Consensus at F2F2 is that the Update langauge & semantics should support the notion of a graph that exists but is empty ←
17:56:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-20 Graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs) notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-20 Graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs) notes added ←
17:56:35 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:56:44 <LeeF> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
17:57:08 <LeeF> AndyS: Consequence of this is can you test whether a graph exists and then use that to decide whether to perform further operations
Andy Seaborne: Consequence of this is can you test whether a graph exists and then use that to decide whether to perform further operations ←
17:57:35 <LeeF> ... such as loading data into a graph only if it exists and is empty
... such as loading data into a graph only if it exists and is empty ←
17:57:45 <dajobe> I asked how do you test if a graph does not exist?
Dave Beckett: I asked how do you test if a graph does not exist? ←
17:57:49 <dajobe> or whether it is empty?
Dave Beckett: or whether it is empty? ←
17:58:14 <LeeF> AndyS: currently, issuing CREATE is an unintended way of asking if a graph exists
Andy Seaborne: currently, issuing CREATE is an unintended way of asking if a graph exists ←
17:58:44 <LeeF> SteveH: can keep CREATE if it's helpful, just not if it's required to insert data
Steve Harris: can keep CREATE if it's helpful, just not if it's required to insert data ←
17:59:33 <AndyS> q+ to note it conflicts with INSERT { GRAPH ?g { ... } }
Andy Seaborne: q+ to note it conflicts with INSERT { GRAPH ?g { ... } } ←
17:59:58 <dajobe> where is CREATE from? I don't see it in sparql 1.1 update.
Dave Beckett: where is CREATE from? I don't see it in sparql 1.1 update. ←
18:00:06 <dajobe> oh never mind
Dave Beckett: oh never mind ←
18:00:15 <LeeF> dajobe: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#t521
Dave Beckett: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#t521 ←
18:00:20 <LeeF> s/dajobe:/dajobe,
s/dajobe:/dajobe, ←
18:00:27 <LeeF> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
18:00:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to note it conflicts with INSERT { GRAPH ?g { ... } }
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to note it conflicts with INSERT { GRAPH ?g { ... } } ←
18:01:24 <AndyS> Maybe needs a systematic use case analysis
Andy Seaborne: Maybe needs a systematic use case analysis ←
18:01:33 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
18:01:55 <LeeF> ISSUE-21 - http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/21
ISSUE-21 - http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/21 ←
18:02:16 <LukeWM> I don't know where that issue came from
Luke Wilson-Mawer: I don't know where that issue came from ←
18:02:19 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07 is the source of many of these issues (F2F1)
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07 is the source of many of these issues (F2F1) ←
18:02:30 <Zakim> -Prateek
Zakim IRC Bot: -Prateek ←
18:05:48 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time ←
18:06:14 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time ←
18:06:15 <AxelPolleres> �+1
Axel Polleres: �+1 ←
18:06:48 <LeeF> ISSUE-21: day 2 of F2F2 had RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time
ISSUE-21: day 2 of F2F2 had RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time ←
18:06:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-21 More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects notes added ←
18:06:52 <LeeF> trackbot, close ISSUE-21
18:06:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-21 More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects closed ←
18:08:20 <LukeWM> MODIFY is just for 1 graph as far as I knew
Luke Wilson-Mawer: MODIFY is just for 1 graph as far as I knew ←
18:08:48 <AndyS> +1 to Leef: Can't do it with MODIFY - INSERT and DELETE are on the same graph
Andy Seaborne: +1 to Leef: Can't do it with MODIFY - INSERT and DELETE are on the same graph ←
18:09:03 <AndyS> ... only WHERE can do it.
Andy Seaborne: ... only WHERE can do it. ←
18:09:16 <kjetil_> We could use that: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/ResourceTopicPortals#Move_data_between_graphs
Kjetil Kjernsmo: We could use that: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/ResourceTopicPortals#Move_data_between_graphs ←
18:09:44 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
18:09:46 <kjetil_> currently, we insert into a temp graph and rename or something, IIRC...
Kjetil Kjernsmo: currently, we insert into a temp graph and rename or something, IIRC... ←
18:10:25 <AndyS> Copy graph? Rename graph?
Andy Seaborne: Copy graph? Rename graph? ←
18:10:29 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
18:11:55 <kjetil_> GRAPH vs. INSERT INTO
Kjetil Kjernsmo: GRAPH vs. INSERT INTO ←
18:14:32 <AxelPolleres> What is the dataset of UPDATE queries, i.e. do we need clauses for specifying the graphstore... is that an issue which is missing? Or, resp. further clarification of what is a graphstore ,as opposed to the dataset.
Axel Polleres: What is the dataset of UPDATE queries, i.e. do we need clauses for specifying the graphstore... is that an issue which is missing? Or, resp. further clarification of what is a graphstore ,as opposed to the dataset. ←
18:16:03 <LeeF> LeeF: My question is how does / can someone define the RDF Dataset that the pattern matching in a MODIFY proceeds against, a la FROM/FROM NAMED in SPARQL Query
Lee Feigenbaum: My question is how does / can someone define the RDF Dataset that the pattern matching in a MODIFY proceeds against, a la FROM/FROM NAMED in SPARQL Query ←
18:17:08 <AndyS> AndyS: different service endpoints can do this (but clunky?)
Andy Seaborne: different service endpoints can do this (but clunky?) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
18:18:27 <AxelPolleres> Issue seems to be whether or not ther graphstore and the dataset for the WHERE part should be decoupled or not?
Axel Polleres: Issue seems to be whether or not ther graphstore and the dataset for the WHERE part should be decoupled or not? ←
18:18:48 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:19:02 <sandro> sandro: there are obviously multiple graph stores in the universe, so the question is whether you can have multiple graph stores behind one endpoint? [ Lee: Yes. ]
Sandro Hawke: there are obviously multiple graph stores in the universe, so the question is whether you can have multiple graph stores behind one endpoint? [ Lee: Yes. ] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:19:43 <LeeF> INSERT INTO <g1> { template } FROM g2 FROM g3 FROM NAMED g4 FROM NAMED g5 WHERE { pattern }
INSERT INTO <g1> { template } FROM g2 FROM g3 FROM NAMED g4 FROM NAMED g5 WHERE { pattern } ←
18:22:58 <sandro> lee: we've never had something like "FROM *" and that's been a source of consternation. I'm concerned that UPDATE seems to be doing it the other way.
Lee Feigenbaum: we've never had something like "FROM *" and that's been a source of consternation. I'm concerned that UPDATE seems to be doing it the other way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:23:28 <AxelPolleres> q+
Axel Polleres: q+ ←
18:23:31 <LeeF> INSERT INTO <g1> { template } FROM g2 FROM g3 FROM NAMED g4 FROM NAMED g5 WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?s ?p ?o } }
INSERT INTO <g1> { template } FROM g2 FROM g3 FROM NAMED g4 FROM NAMED g5 WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?s ?p ?o } } ←
18:25:53 <AxelPolleres> I suggest to raise and issue... ISSUE: shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update?
Axel Polleres: I suggest to raise and issue... ISSUE: shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update? ←
18:26:09 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:27:03 <AxelPolleres> ack me
Axel Polleres: ack me ←
18:27:19 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update?
ISSUE: shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update? ←
18:27:20 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-51 - Shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/51/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-51 - Shall dataset clauses be allowed in SPARQL/update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/51/edit . ←
18:27:48 <AndyS> bigger issue is the overall abstraction.
Andy Seaborne: bigger issue is the overall abstraction. ←
18:28:12 <AndyS> +1 to dajobe
Andy Seaborne: +1 to dajobe ←
18:29:04 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:29:22 <SteveH> overall abstraction is definitely the problem
Steve Harris: overall abstraction is definitely the problem ←
18:29:27 <dajobe> be brave: change the graph management model to be clear, if necessary do not use FROM
Dave Beckett: be brave: change the graph management model to be clear, if necessary do not use FROM ←
18:29:58 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
18:29:58 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
18:30:01 <LeeF> LeeF: I'd find it very hard to teach & think about the situation if they have different graph management models - also, we find the current graph model _useful_, though I realize that's contrary to others' expectations
Lee Feigenbaum: I'd find it very hard to teach & think about the situation if they have different graph management models - also, we find the current graph model _useful_, though I realize that's contrary to others' expectations ←
18:31:14 <AndyS> What is now after the break?
Andy Seaborne: What is now after the break? ←
18:31:53 <bglimm> I'll now disappear for a while and check in late tonight UK time to see what is still going on.
Birte Glimm: I'll now disappear for a while and check in late tonight UK time to see what is still going on. ←
18:32:20 <LeeF> thanks, bglimm
thanks, bglimm ←
18:35:10 <pgearon> what time are you back from the break?
Paul Gearon: what time are you back from the break? ←
18:35:21 <pgearon> because I should be available to dial in then
Paul Gearon: because I should be available to dial in then ←
18:35:58 <bglimm> ok, see you later
Birte Glimm: ok, see you later ←
18:36:05 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
18:37:00 <Zakim> -LukeWM
Zakim IRC Bot: -LukeWM ←
18:52:50 <Zakim> -kjetil_
(No events recorded for 15 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -kjetil_ ←
18:56:36 <AndyS> So if it were BIND(?x := lang(?y) ) is that OK?
Andy Seaborne: So if it were BIND(?x := lang(?y) ) is that OK? ←
18:57:22 <AndyS> I don't care about the syntax word.
Andy Seaborne: I don't care about the syntax word. ←
18:59:35 <AndyS> DECLARE(?x := ?y+3) :-)
Andy Seaborne: DECLARE(?x := ?y+3) :-) ←
19:07:34 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
19:07:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2 ←
19:07:35 <Zakim> Suite_a has sandro, LeeF, SteveH, dajobe
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has sandro, LeeF, SteveH, dajobe ←
19:07:54 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, suite_a has kasei
Axel Polleres: Zakim, suite_a has kasei ←
19:07:54 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
19:08:24 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, suite_a has axelpolleres
Axel Polleres: Zakim, suite_a has axelpolleres ←
19:08:24 <Zakim> +axelpolleres; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +axelpolleres; got it ←
19:08:36 <AxelPolleres> zakim, sho is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: zakim, sho is on the phone? ←
19:08:36 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres. ←
19:09:37 <AxelPolleres> zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
19:09:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2 ←
19:09:38 <Zakim> Suite_a has axelpolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has axelpolleres ←
19:09:58 <AxelPolleres> zakim, you don't get it, doya?
Axel Polleres: zakim, you don't get it, doya? ←
19:09:58 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres. ←
19:10:31 <AxelPolleres> zakim, suite_a has leef, axelpolleres, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei
Axel Polleres: zakim, suite_a has leef, axelpolleres, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei ←
19:10:31 <Zakim> axelpolleres was already listed in Suite_a, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: axelpolleres was already listed in Suite_a, AxelPolleres ←
19:10:32 <Zakim> +leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei; got it ←
19:10:54 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
19:11:08 <LukeWM> zakim, ??P4 is me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, ??P4 is me ←
19:11:08 <Zakim> +LukeWM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LukeWM; got it ←
19:11:26 <sandro> scribe: sandro
(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)
19:11:31 <LeeF> scribenick: sandro
19:11:40 <LeeF> pgearon, we are restarting now
Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, we are restarting now ←
19:11:58 <sandro> axel: issue-24 do we need a move operation?
Axel Polleres: ISSUE-24 do we need a move operation? ←
19:12:01 <sandro> issue-24?
19:12:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-24 -- Move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-24 -- Move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) -- OPEN ←
19:12:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/24
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/24 ←
19:12:04 <pgearon> OK, still on DuraSpace call. I'll dial in the moment I'm off
Paul Gearon: OK, still on DuraSpace call. I'll dial in the moment I'm off ←
19:12:36 <sandro> axel: current example in updates document, with move as delete-from plus insert-into. The question is whether we want a more convenient syntax.
Axel Polleres: current example in updates document, with move as delete-from plus insert-into. The question is whether we want a more convenient syntax. ←
19:12:46 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
19:13:39 <sandro> axel: modify only affects a single graph, but maybe it could be stretched....
Axel Polleres: modify only affects a single graph, but maybe it could be stretched.... ←
19:14:06 <sandro> strawpoll: do we need a nice syntax for moving data between graphs?
STRAWPOLL: do we need a nice syntax for moving data between graphs? ←
19:14:10 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
19:14:13 <sandro> -0.5
-0.5 ←
19:14:38 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
19:14:39 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
19:15:08 <sandro> Lee: you can do it with modify
Lee Feigenbaum: you can do it with modify ←
19:16:03 <sandro> lee: since the WHERE is always against your entire your graph store, and the URI only applies to insert/delete, UPDATE can be used for Move.
Lee Feigenbaum: since the WHERE is always against your entire your graph store, and the URI only applies to insert/delete, UPDATE can be used for Move. ←
19:16:22 <sandro> LukeWM: (unintelligible).
Luke Wilson-Mawer: (unintelligible). ←
19:16:33 <sandro> axel: I can't delete from one graph and insert into another, in one statement.
Axel Polleres: I can't delete from one graph and insert into another, in one statement. ←
19:16:59 <sandro> axel: is example 3e good enough?
Axel Polleres: is example 3e good enough? ←
19:17:30 <sandro> a combiination LukeWM -- loud fan, bad phone, and I didn't understand the subject. :-)
a combiination LukeWM -- loud fan, bad phone, and I didn't understand the subject. :-) ←
19:17:44 <LukeWM> ok
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ok ←
19:18:07 <sandro> lee: Let's not run around and add too many premature simplifications.
Lee Feigenbaum: Let's not run around and add too many premature simplifications. ←
19:18:14 <sandro> lee: Syntactic sugar can come later
Lee Feigenbaum: Syntactic sugar can come later ←
19:18:16 <sandro> +1 Lee
+1 Lee ←
19:19:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient ←
19:20:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from editors absent from this meeting)
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from editors absent from this meeting) ←
19:20:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editor, who are absent from this meeting)
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editor, who are absent from this meeting) ←
19:20:35 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting)
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting) ←
19:20:40 <sandro> +1
+1 ←
19:20:42 <AxelPolleres> +!
Axel Polleres: +! ←
19:20:46 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:20:48 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting)
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting) ←
19:21:03 <sandro> issue-25?
19:21:03 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-25 -- Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify -- OPEN ←
19:21:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/25
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/25 ←
19:21:11 <sandro> topic: issue-25
19:21:31 <sandro> steve: into vs graph
Steve Harris: into vs graph ←
19:22:05 <sandro> steve: I think it's important. there are lots of big graphs you want to card up into little graphs by, eg, subject URI.
Steve Harris: I think it's important. there are lots of big graphs you want to card up into little graphs by, eg, subject URI. ←
19:22:09 <LeeF> +1 to steve, this is the most intriguing part of update to me
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to steve, this is the most intriguing part of update to me ←
19:22:32 <sandro> greg: The note from Paul describes this issue as "fraught" :-)
Greg Williams: The note from Paul describes this issue as "fraught" :-) ←
19:22:45 <sandro> axel: insert and modify
Axel Polleres: insert and modify ←
19:22:51 <sandro> axel: and probably delete from
Axel Polleres: and probably delete from ←
19:22:53 <AndyS> This (INSERT { GRAPH ...}) is a good change.
Andy Seaborne: This (INSERT { GRAPH ...}) is a good change. ←
19:23:23 <sandro> steve: There are times where you want to delete certain triples from all named graphs. If you can't use a variable, theres no way to write that down.
Steve Harris: There are times where you want to delete certain triples from all named graphs. If you can't use a variable, theres no way to write that down. ←
19:23:40 <sandro> steve: More than one graph per query.
Steve Harris: More than one graph per query. ←
19:24:01 <sandro> steve: There was also a clarify issue, someone posted about.
Steve Harris: There was also a clarify issue, someone posted about. ←
19:24:39 <AxelPolleres> sub-issue 1: insert/modify/delete from variable graph yes/no? sub-issue2: concrete syntax (GRAPH vs. INTO/FROM)
Axel Polleres: sub-ISSUE-1: insert/modify/delete from variable graph yes/no? sub-ISSUE-2: concrete syntax (GRAPH vs. INTO/FROM) ←
19:25:20 <sandro> lee: It sounds good, but I'd like to understand what it's fraught with.
Lee Feigenbaum: It sounds good, but I'd like to understand what it's fraught with. ←
19:25:28 <sandro> steve: some complexity.
Steve Harris: some complexity. ←
19:25:52 <sandro> steve: we'd be re-using some semantics from the WHERE part, so a little simplifying
Steve Harris: we'd be re-using some semantics from the WHERE part, so a little simplifying ←
19:26:16 <sandro> steve: We'd have to talk about some error cases. eg G binds to a literal.
Steve Harris: We'd have to talk about some error cases. eg G binds to a literal. ←
19:26:42 <sandro> steve: There are probably some nasty corner cases; I haven't implemented it.
Steve Harris: There are probably some nasty corner cases; I haven't implemented it. ←
19:27:07 <sandro> dajobe: How far has this gone to an arbitrary graph manilpulation language?
Dave Beckett: How far has this gone to an arbitrary graph manilpulation language? ←
19:27:22 <sandro> steve: I think it's clearer if we use graph in both parts.
Steve Harris: I think it's clearer if we use graph in both parts. ←
19:27:38 <sandro> steve: RELATED do we allow things other than graphs to appear?
Steve Harris: RELATED do we allow things other than graphs to appear? ←
19:28:10 <sandro> axel: If we used the GRAPH keyword, then it would be weird to disallow variables.
Axel Polleres: If we used the GRAPH keyword, then it would be weird to disallow variables. ←
19:28:51 <sandro> steve: the INTO thing poses a number of problems.
Steve Harris: the INTO thing poses a number of problems. ←
19:29:10 <sandro> axel: Should we throw these together?
Axel Polleres: Should we throw these together? ←
19:29:18 <sandro> steve: Hard to talk about them separately.
Steve Harris: Hard to talk about them separately. ←
19:29:37 <AxelPolleres> axel: i don't think we can but they affect each other
Axel Polleres: i don't think we can but they affect each other [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
19:29:43 <sandro> steve: If there no enthusiasm for using GRAPH in INSERT, then we probably shouldn't go with variables.
Steve Harris: If there no enthusiasm for using GRAPH in INSERT, then we probably shouldn't go with variables. ←
19:30:26 <sandro> axel: Does anyone see a problem with allowing variables in identifying graphs in INSERT and DELETE?
Axel Polleres: Does anyone see a problem with allowing variables in identifying graphs in INSERT and DELETE? ←
19:30:36 <sandro> lee: I think we should totally do this.
Lee Feigenbaum: I think we should totally do this. ←
19:30:51 <sandro> lee: I would use it all the time, to break a giant triples file into quads.
Lee Feigenbaum: I would use it all the time, to break a giant triples file into quads. ←
19:30:59 <sandro> lee: I do this all the time.
Lee Feigenbaum: I do this all the time. ←
19:31:04 <sandro> steve: Me too!
Steve Harris: Me too! ←
19:32:00 <sandro> dajobe: This reminds me of a Map-Reduce. A new, complex, thing
Dave Beckett: This reminds me of a Map-Reduce. A new, complex, thing ←
19:32:14 <sandro> steve: the Graph keyword seems more important to me.
Steve Harris: the Graph keyword seems more important to me. ←
19:32:16 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
19:32:34 <sandro> dajobe: I'm worried about complexity from many angles.
Dave Beckett: I'm worried about complexity from many angles. ←
19:32:47 <AxelPolleres> Luke... is your staring on the q still current?
Axel Polleres: Luke... is your staring on the q still current? ←
19:32:57 <sandro> Lee: The points that stop short are MORE complicated, because they are arbitrary.
Lee Feigenbaum: The points that stop short are MORE complicated, because they are arbitrary. ←
19:33:18 <sandro> Dajobe: SPARQL UPDATE == RDF Graph Manipulation Language.
Dave Beckett: SPARQL UPDATE == RDF Graph Manipulation Language. ←
19:33:24 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
19:33:44 <sandro> lee: My own angle is that this is the thing I'd want from update.
Lee Feigenbaum: My own angle is that this is the thing I'd want from update. ←
19:34:10 <sandro> dajobe: My only advice is to make clear that you're taking on this big peice.
Dave Beckett: My only advice is to make clear that you're taking on this big peice. ←
19:34:33 <sandro> lee: As Andy said, we keep adding things to update....
Lee Feigenbaum: As Andy said, we keep adding things to update.... ←
19:34:40 <sandro> dajobe: What would be a step too far?
Dave Beckett: What would be a step too far? ←
19:34:48 <sandro> Lee: personally or as chair?
Lee Feigenbaum: personally or as chair? ←
19:35:11 <sandro> Lee: WHERE part when inserting data? we talked about this, and decided it was important. That we want a "full featured update language"
Lee Feigenbaum: WHERE part when inserting data? we talked about this, and decided it was important. That we want a "full featured update language" ←
19:35:30 <sandro> dajobe: So you're positioning SPARQL updates as diferent from SPARQL Query?
Dave Beckett: So you're positioning SPARQL updates as diferent from SPARQL Query? ←
19:35:52 <sandro> dajobe: It looks like SPARQL UPdate is a superset of SPARQL Query. Or nearly superset.
Dave Beckett: It looks like SPARQL UPdate is a superset of SPARQL Query. Or nearly superset. ←
19:36:30 <sandro> steve: We still want a way to provide a simple flag about whether updates are allowed
Steve Harris: We still want a way to provide a simple flag about whether updates are allowed ←
19:36:39 <sandro> sandro: a read-only flag isn't that complicated
Sandro Hawke: a read-only flag isn't that complicated ←
19:36:54 <sandro> Axel: I'm not sure whether this bit adds problems.
Axel Polleres: I'm not sure whether this bit adds problems. ←
19:37:00 <SteveH> not a flag really, different endpoints
Steve Harris: not a flag really, different endpoints ←
19:37:16 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
19:37:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2, LukeWM
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, AndyS, dcharbon2, LukeWM ←
19:37:17 <Zakim> Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei ←
19:37:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see kjetil_, dajobe, SteveH, LeeF, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, dcharbon2, Prateek, LukeWM, AndyS, pgearon, karl, KjetilK, kasei, iv_an_ru, sandro, kjetil, ericP,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see kjetil_, dajobe, SteveH, LeeF, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, dcharbon2, Prateek, LukeWM, AndyS, pgearon, karl, KjetilK, kasei, iv_an_ru, sandro, kjetil, ericP, ←
19:37:21 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
19:38:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: SPARQL Update will allow insert/modify/delete on graphs identified by variables (subject to review by Update editors)
PROPOSED: SPARQL Update will allow insert/modify/delete on graphs identified by variables (subject to review by Update editors) ←
19:38:26 <sandro> (who is talking?)
(who is talking?) ←
19:39:14 <sandro> dcharbon2: (scribe didn't quite follow)
David Charboneau: (scribe didn't quite follow) ←
19:39:30 <sandro> AndyS: I'm worried that this is a peice of a bigger thing.
Andy Seaborne: I'm worried that this is a peice of a bigger thing. ←
19:39:59 <sandro> AndyS: View of graph store as a large collection is quad is kind of natural. Thus variables as quads.
Andy Seaborne: View of graph store as a large collection is quad is kind of natural. Thus variables as quads. ←
19:40:03 <AndyS> Consequence is GRAPH ?g in templates
Andy Seaborne: Consequence is GRAPH ?g in templates ←
19:40:35 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
19:40:38 <sandro> steve: I'm only in favor of this if it's in the form with GRAPH ?g in templates.
Steve Harris: I'm only in favor of this if it's in the form with GRAPH ?g in templates. ←
19:40:54 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
19:41:10 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
19:41:29 <sandro> andy: what if you insert/delete into multiple graphs, putting graph in a template.
Andy Seaborne: what if you insert/delete into multiple graphs, putting graph in a template. ←
19:41:40 <sandro> steve: Right -- I want to delete some triple from all named graphs.
Steve Harris: Right -- I want to delete some triple from all named graphs. ←
19:42:12 <AndyS> Example: INSERT { GRAPH ?g1 {} GRAPH ?g2 {} } WHERE { ... ?g1 ... ?g2 ... }
Andy Seaborne: Example: INSERT { GRAPH ?g1 {} GRAPH ?g2 {} } WHERE { ... ?g1 ... ?g2 ... } ←
19:42:13 <sandro> sandro: where the graphs deleted-from could be determined by a whole spaql query?
Sandro Hawke: where the graphs deleted-from could be determined by a whole spaql query? ←
19:42:15 <sandro> steve: yes
Steve Harris: yes ←
19:43:05 <sandro> PROPOSED: use GRAPH inside insert/delete templates instead of FROM/INTO (subject to approval from Update Editors.)
PROPOSED: use GRAPH inside insert/delete templates instead of FROM/INTO (subject to approval from Update Editors.) ←
19:43:30 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
19:43:31 <LukeWM> bye
Luke Wilson-Mawer: bye ←
19:43:34 <sandro> lee: thanks andy...
Lee Feigenbaum: thanks andy... ←
19:43:45 <LukeWM> q+ to ask about how this affects modify
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ to ask about how this affects modify ←
19:44:22 <Zakim> +pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon ←
19:44:36 <sandro> sandro: insert into is soooo nice and simple, and this feels a little down-the-rabit-hole.
Sandro Hawke: insert into is soooo nice and simple, and this feels a little down-the-rabit-hole. ←
19:45:49 <sandro> steve: insert into <a> { ?x ?y ?z } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z }
Steve Harris: insert into <a> { ?x ?y ?z } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } ←
19:46:07 <sandro> dajobe: copy from default graph into <a> ?
Dave Beckett: copy from default graph into <a> ? ←
19:46:28 <sandro> steve: seems like it might match in <a>, instead of in default graph
Steve Harris: seems like it might match in <a>, instead of in default graph ←
19:46:48 <sandro> steve: DELETE FROM <a> { ?x ?y ?z } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z }
Steve Harris: DELETE FROM <a> { ?x ?y ?z } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } ←
19:47:06 <sandro> steve: actually, confusingly, subtracts default from from <a>
Steve Harris: actually, confusingly, subtracts default from from <a> ←
19:48:00 <AxelPolleres> ack LukeWM
Axel Polleres: ack LukeWM ←
19:48:00 <Zakim> LukeWM, you wanted to ask about how this affects modify
Zakim IRC Bot: LukeWM, you wanted to ask about how this affects modify ←
19:48:25 <sandro> steve: DELETE { GRAPH <A> { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } # subtract default graph from A
Steve Harris: DELETE { GRAPH <A> { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } # subtract default graph from A ←
19:48:41 <sandro> steve: DELETE { GRAPH <A> { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { GRAPH <A> {?x ?y ?z }} # clear A
Steve Harris: DELETE { GRAPH <A> { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { GRAPH <A> {?x ?y ?z }} # clear A ←
19:49:24 <sandro> axel: Is a separate syntax for MODIFY necessary, or do INSERT ... DELETE ... WHERE ... as one statement.
Axel Polleres: Is a separate syntax for MODIFY necessary, or do INSERT ... DELETE ... WHERE ... as one statement. ←
19:50:06 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
19:50:39 <sandro> axel: If we're making things more uniform this way, then modify not longer makes sense, being on one graph.
Axel Polleres: If we're making things more uniform this way, then modify not longer makes sense, being on one graph. ←
19:52:51 <sandro> sandro: maybe I want ON GRAPH <g> INSERT ... DELETE ... WHERE ...
Sandro Hawke: maybe I want ON GRAPH <g> INSERT ... DELETE ... WHERE ... ←
19:53:11 <sandro> dajobe: Yeah, this feels like you're grabbing bits; it's not clear how you they compose.
Dave Beckett: Yeah, this feels like you're grabbing bits; it's not clear how you they compose. ←
19:53:17 <sandro> (who?)
(who?) ←
19:54:18 <sandro> how about DELETE ... THEN INSERT ... WHERE
how about DELETE ... THEN INSERT ... WHERE ←
19:54:23 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
19:54:44 <sandro> axel: it seems simpler to have one statement
Axel Polleres: it seems simpler to have one statement ←
19:55:00 <sandro> pgearon: I like WITH or USING, as a way to override the default graph
Paul Gearon: I like WITH or USING, as a way to override the default graph ←
19:55:14 <AxelPolleres> GRAPGH g { INSERT ... DELETE ... } WHERE ...
Axel Polleres: GRAPGH g { INSERT ... DELETE ... } WHERE ... ←
19:55:25 <sandro> pgearon: most of the time you're probably operating on a single graph, so putting it in one place.
Paul Gearon: most of the time you're probably operating on a single graph, so putting it in one place. ←
19:55:26 <dajobe> if WITH omitted, defaults to default graph?
Dave Beckett: if WITH omitted, defaults to default graph? ←
19:55:31 <sandro> (who?)
(who?) ←
19:55:42 <sandro> ?: can we just use MODIFY?
?: can we just use MODIFY? ←
19:55:42 <AxelPolleres> INSERT ... GRAPGH g {DELETE ... WHERE ... }
Axel Polleres: INSERT ... GRAPGH g {DELETE ... WHERE ... } ←
19:56:04 <LukeWM> yes
Luke Wilson-Mawer: yes ←
19:56:04 <sandro> (axel, DELETEs happen before INSERTs, which is why I want it first.)
(axel, DELETEs happen before INSERTs, which is why I want it first.) ←
19:57:05 <sandro> someone: insert into one named graph, delete from another, query on a 'general' one, .... MODIFY X doesnt make much sense.
Scribe problem: the name 'someone' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Lee Feigenbaum Axel Polleres Eric Prud'hommeaux Ivan Herman Bijan Parsia Andy Seaborne Ahmed Ezzat Orri Erling Ivan Mikhailov Greg Williams Phil Brooks Yimin Wang Jenna Zhou Dave Newman Daniel Schutzer Steve Harris Luke Wilson-Mawer Alex Passant Souri Das Chime Ogbuji John Clark Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Susie Stephens Kjetil Kjernsmo Simon Schenk Jacek Kopecký Prateek Jain Paul Gearon Birte Glimm Kendall Clark Simon Johnston Olivier Corby Sandro Hawke David Charboneau David Charboneau Dave Beckett Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown someone: insert into one named graph, delete from another, query on a 'general' one, .... MODIFY X doesnt make much sense. ←
19:57:14 <sandro> someone-else: good point.
Scribe problem: the name 'someone-else' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Lee Feigenbaum Axel Polleres Eric Prud'hommeaux Ivan Herman Bijan Parsia Andy Seaborne Ahmed Ezzat Orri Erling Ivan Mikhailov Greg Williams Phil Brooks Yimin Wang Jenna Zhou Dave Newman Daniel Schutzer Steve Harris Luke Wilson-Mawer Alex Passant Souri Das Chime Ogbuji John Clark Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Susie Stephens Kjetil Kjernsmo Simon Schenk Jacek Kopecký Prateek Jain Paul Gearon Birte Glimm Kendall Clark Simon Johnston Olivier Corby Sandro Hawke David Charboneau David Charboneau Dave Beckett Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown someone-else: good point. ←
19:57:19 <pgearon> sandro, that's me
Paul Gearon: sandro, that's me ←
19:57:20 <LukeWM> sandro, LukeWM
Luke Wilson-Mawer: sandro, LukeWM ←
19:57:28 <AxelPolleres> DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart?
Axel Polleres: DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart? ←
19:57:28 <LukeWM> (the good point bit)
Luke Wilson-Mawer: (the good point bit) ←
19:58:45 <sandro> axel: if we allow GRAPH in templates everywhere, then the uniform statement probably makes sense, but it might be nice to have syntax sugar like USING.
Axel Polleres: if we allow GRAPH in templates everywhere, then the uniform statement probably makes sense, but it might be nice to have syntax sugar like USING. ←
19:59:40 <sandro> steve: it's not syntactic sugar, because you might nest graph stmts
Steve Harris: it's not syntactic sugar, because you might nest graph stmts ←
19:59:59 <pgearon> can someone please type a counter example showing nested graph statements?
Paul Gearon: can someone please type a counter example showing nested graph statements? ←
20:01:38 <sandro> sandro: my sense is USING or ON would set a lexical-scope temporary default graph.
Sandro Hawke: my sense is USING or ON would set a lexical-scope temporary default graph. ←
20:01:43 <sandro> steve: that might work
Steve Harris: that might work ←
20:02:25 <sandro> axel: GRAPH g { INSERT .... { } }
Axel Polleres: GRAPH g { INSERT .... { } } ←
20:02:33 <sandro> steve: a bit weird.
Steve Harris: a bit weird. ←
20:02:57 <sandro> paul: nested graphs?
Paul Gearon: nested graphs? ←
20:03:20 <sandro> axel: INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } }
Axel Polleres: INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } } ←
20:03:32 <sandro> axel: instead of INSERT INTO G { a b c }
Axel Polleres: instead of INSERT INTO G { a b c } ←
20:03:41 <sandro> axel: people here seemed to like this.
Axel Polleres: people here seemed to like this. ←
20:04:02 <sandro> paul: I want to insert and delete with multiple graphs at once.
Paul Gearon: I want to insert and delete with multiple graphs at once. ←
20:04:41 <AxelPolleres> INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c GRAPH g2 { d e f} } }
Axel Polleres: INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c GRAPH g2 { d e f} } } ←
20:05:02 <AxelPolleres> INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } GRAPH g2 { d e f} }
Axel Polleres: INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } GRAPH g2 { d e f} } ←
20:05:05 <pgearon> INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } GRAPH g�2 { d e f } }
Paul Gearon: INSERT { GRAPH g { a b c } GRAPH g�2 { d e f } } ←
20:05:42 <sandro> paul: There's no context to bring in, with the nesting.
Paul Gearon: There's no context to bring in, with the nesting. ←
20:05:55 <sandro> lee: it's the same in QUERY, and it also has no effect.
Lee Feigenbaum: it's the same in QUERY, and it also has no effect. ←
20:06:14 <sandro> greg: it's NEVER made sense to me. it's just to make it easier on parser.
Greg Williams: it's NEVER made sense to me. it's just to make it easier on parser. ←
20:06:33 <sandro> lee: there's a notion of active graph or something
Lee Feigenbaum: there's a notion of active graph or something ←
20:06:46 <sandro> axel: so it's equally redundant in query
Axel Polleres: so it's equally redundant in query ←
20:06:53 <sandro> paul: Are filters kept inside scope?
Paul Gearon: Are filters kept inside scope? ←
20:07:01 <sandro> lee: I don't think it has any effect
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't think it has any effect ←
20:07:23 <sandro> lee: in GRAPH X, there's never a semantic difference from being ... unless it's GRAPH ?g
Lee Feigenbaum: in GRAPH X, there's never a semantic difference from being ... unless it's GRAPH ?g ←
20:07:58 <sandro> paul: I just don't like nesting, because it adds complexity for no gain
Paul Gearon: I just don't like nesting, because it adds complexity for no gain ←
20:08:07 <sandro> paul: if someone else writes the JavaCC
Paul Gearon: if someone else writes the JavaCC ←
20:08:36 <sandro> axel: leaving out grammar issues, are we okay with this...
Axel Polleres: leaving out grammar issues, are we okay with this... ←
20:08:49 <AxelPolleres> DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart?
Axel Polleres: DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart? ←
20:10:57 <sandro> sandro: what about a THEN connective between DELETE and INSERT
Sandro Hawke: what about a THEN connective between DELETE and INSERT ←
20:11:13 <LukeWM> AxelPolleres, there could be two WHERE clauses above.
Luke Wilson-Mawer: AxelPolleres, there could be two WHERE clauses above. ←
20:11:53 <sandro> LukeWM: there could be different WHERE clauses for the DELETE and the INSERT
Luke Wilson-Mawer: there could be different WHERE clauses for the DELETE and the INSERT ←
20:11:56 <sandro> axel: I don't get that.
Axel Polleres: I don't get that. ←
20:12:14 <sandro> axel: Just do two separate queries.
Axel Polleres: Just do two separate queries. ←
20:12:47 <sandro> Paul: It's an atomic operation.
Paul Gearon: It's an atomic operation. ←
20:13:35 <sandro> axel: one approach was several statements in one HTTP request, and treat those atomically.
Axel Polleres: one approach was several statements in one HTTP request, and treat those atomically. ←
20:14:02 <sandro> paul: as ISWC we were being grilled on this lack of transactions.
Paul Gearon: as ISWC we were being grilled on this lack of transactions. ←
20:14:33 <sandro> paul: So a seperate where clause of insert and delete might help with that.
Paul Gearon: So a seperate where clause of insert and delete might help with that. ←
20:14:34 <AxelPolleres> (DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart?)+
Axel Polleres: (DELETEpart|INSERTpart|(DELETEpart INSERTpart) DATASETclause? WHEREpart?)+ ←
20:15:40 <AxelPolleres> probably needs separator ';'?
Axel Polleres: probably needs separator ';'? ←
20:15:51 <sandro> steve: grammar allows multiple statements in one blob? no...
Steve Harris: grammar allows multiple statements in one blob? no... ←
20:16:50 <sandro> Paul: roughly: [DELETE ... [WHERE ...]] [INSERT ... [ WHERE ... ]]
Paul Gearon: roughly: [DELETE ... [WHERE ...]] [INSERT ... [ WHERE ... ]] ←
20:17:12 <sandro> paul: where if theres no WHERE on DELETE, it uses the INSERT's
Paul Gearon: where if theres no WHERE on DELETE, it uses the INSERT's ←
20:17:20 <pgearon> (DELETE...[WHERE...])* (INSERT...[WHERE...])* WHERE...
Paul Gearon: (DELETE...[WHERE...])* (INSERT...[WHERE...])* WHERE... ←
20:17:39 <sandro> axel: I don't see the difference.
Axel Polleres: I don't see the difference. ←
20:18:47 <sandro> paul: you can do your delete and your insert each with their WHERE, and then a default WHERE at the end.
Paul Gearon: you can do your delete and your insert each with their WHERE, and then a default WHERE at the end. ←
20:19:22 <sandro> axel: If you can put multiple operations in one request, then this isn't necessary.
Axel Polleres: If you can put multiple operations in one request, then this isn't necessary. ←
20:19:28 <sandro> paul: how do we package them up>?
Paul Gearon: how do we package them up>? ←
20:19:41 <sandro> steve: all in one string with a seperator character.
Steve Harris: all in one string with a seperator character. ←
20:19:46 <sandro> Paul: works for me.
Paul Gearon: works for me. ←
20:19:51 <sandro> steve: semi-colon
Steve Harris: semi-colon ←
20:19:57 <AxelPolleres> steve: separator charcter ';'
Steve Harris: separator charcter ';' [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
20:20:15 <sandro> paul: hard to pre-parse, since semi-colon is used inside braces
Paul Gearon: hard to pre-parse, since semi-colon is used inside braces ←
20:20:47 <sandro> steve: it's always going to need a real parser anyone because of escaping.
Steve Harris: it's always going to need a real parser anyone because of escaping. ←
20:24:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: we'll have one update statement, DELETE ... INSERT ... WHERE ..., where one of DELETE or INSERT may be ommitted, and WHERE is optional, and multiple of these may be combined in a string using ";" as the separator.
PROPOSED: we'll have one update statement, DELETE ... INSERT ... WHERE ..., where one of DELETE or INSERT may be ommitted, and WHERE is optional, and multiple of these may be combined in a string using ";" as the separator. ←
20:24:32 <sandro> (and we'll talk about having ON or USING separately.)
(and we'll talk about having ON or USING separately.) ←
20:24:47 <LukeWM> q+ to mention multiple wheres
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ to mention multiple wheres ←
20:25:03 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: -dcharbon2 ←
20:25:04 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
20:25:05 <Zakim> LukeWM, you wanted to mention multiple wheres
Zakim IRC Bot: LukeWM, you wanted to mention multiple wheres ←
20:25:26 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
20:25:28 <pgearon> +1
Paul Gearon: +1 ←
20:25:35 <sandro> +1
+1 ←
20:25:55 <sandro> RESOLVED: we'll have one update statement, DELETE ... INSERT ... WHERE ..., where one of DELETE or INSERT may be ommitted, and WHERE is optional, and multiple of these may be combined in a string using ";" as the separator.
RESOLVED: we'll have one update statement, DELETE ... INSERT ... WHERE ..., where one of DELETE or INSERT may be ommitted, and WHERE is optional, and multiple of these may be combined in a string using ";" as the separator. ←
20:25:58 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
20:27:04 <sandro> luke; there might be some issue with the WHERE applying *after* the delete has happened?
luke; there might be some issue with the WHERE applying *after* the delete has happened? ←
20:28:29 <pgearon> doesn't the WHERE clause have to be done first?
Paul Gearon: doesn't the WHERE clause have to be done first? ←
20:29:44 <AxelPolleres> sandro... simple testcase DELETE {?s ?p ?o } INSERT {?s ?p ?o } WHERE {?s ?p ?o } should have no effect
Axel Polleres: sandro... simple testcase DELETE {?s ?p ?o } INSERT {?s ?p ?o } WHERE {?s ?p ?o } should have no effect ←
20:30:18 <sandro> sandro: so you do the WHERE, then the DELETE, then the INSERT, (both using the results of the WHERE)
Sandro Hawke: so you do the WHERE, then the DELETE, then the INSERT, (both using the results of the WHERE) ←
20:30:22 <sandro> steve: Yes.
Steve Harris: Yes. ←
20:30:44 <LukeWM> +1 to USING
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 to USING ←
20:31:09 <pgearon> +1 to WITH or USING. Happy to discuss which
Paul Gearon: +1 to WITH or USING. Happy to discuss which ←
20:31:11 <SteveH> +0
Steve Harris: +0 ←
20:32:02 <sandro> steve: Paul, as editor, feel free to go ahead and put it in the document for now.
Steve Harris: Paul, as editor, feel free to go ahead and put it in the document for now. ←
20:32:06 <pgearon> :-D
Paul Gearon: :-D ←
20:32:11 <sandro> Lee: Yeah, that's the best way to make progress.
Lee Feigenbaum: Yeah, that's the best way to make progress. ←
20:32:28 <sandro> I wonder about calling it DEFAULT
I wonder about calling it DEFAULT ←
20:33:03 <SteveH> not DEFAULT :)
Steve Harris: not DEFAULT :) ←
20:33:19 <sandro> okay :-) I forgot.
okay :-) I forgot. ←
20:33:48 <sandro> steve: Paul, about atomicity -- did you want one HTTP request to be dispatched atomically?
Steve Harris: Paul, about atomicity -- did you want one HTTP request to be dispatched atomically? ←
20:34:00 <sandro> Paul: yes.
Paul Gearon: yes. ←
20:35:06 <LeeF> issue-26?
20:35:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-26 -- Conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-26 -- Conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions -- OPEN ←
20:35:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/26
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/26 ←
20:35:20 <sandro> topic: issue-26
20:35:34 <sandro> axel: we've broadly discussed a lot of these.
Axel Polleres: we've broadly discussed a lot of these. ←
20:35:47 <sandro> axel: do we have another issue about atomicity? are they linked?
Axel Polleres: do we have another issue about atomicity? are they linked? ←
20:36:03 <sandro> topic: issue-27
20:36:05 <sandro> issue-27?
20:36:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- Subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-27 -- Subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity -- OPEN ←
20:36:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/27
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/27 ←
20:37:03 <sandro> axel: in Update document?
Axel Polleres: in Update document? ←
20:37:48 <sandro> axel: We dropped subqueries yesterday, we only have subselects.
Axel Polleres: We dropped subqueries yesterday, we only have subselects. ←
20:38:00 <sandro> axel: allow full query syntax in WHERE part?
Axel Polleres: allow full query syntax in WHERE part? ←
20:38:05 <sandro> paul: I think so
Paul Gearon: I think so ←
20:38:33 <sandro> Steve: yeah, there's a risk that someone does UPDATE only, eg to add to SPARQL server.
Steve Harris: yeah, there's a risk that someone does UPDATE only, eg to add to SPARQL server. ←
20:38:38 <AxelPolleres> issue-27 boils down to... do we allow full SPARQL1.1/query WHERE parts?
Axel Polleres: ISSUE-27 boils down to... do we allow full SPARQL1.1/query WHERE parts? ←
20:38:43 <sandro> paul: So they'll have crippled where clauses.
Paul Gearon: So they'll have crippled where clauses. ←
20:39:19 <AxelPolleres> what if someone wants to add UPDATE on top of SPARQL/Query 1.0?
Axel Polleres: what if someone wants to add UPDATE on top of SPARQL/Query 1.0? ←
20:39:20 <sandro> steve: They might implement UPDATE only, not QUERY.
Steve Harris: They might implement UPDATE only, not QUERY. ←
20:39:34 <sandro> steve: it's a corner case that doesn't bother me.
Steve Harris: it's a corner case that doesn't bother me. ←
20:40:25 <sandro> paul: in Service Description, you can say you can only do trivial updates.
Paul Gearon: in Service Description, you can say you can only do trivial updates. ←
20:40:54 <sandro> Greg: I've been very hesistant to include way of describing that you fall short of conformance.
Greg Williams: I've been very hesistant to include way of describing that you fall short of conformance. ←
20:40:58 <LukeWM> q+ to ask about SELECTS in update queries.
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ to ask about SELECTS in update queries. ←
20:41:22 <sandro> Greg: Should we have a way to say: I do 1.1 update but only 1.0 query?
Greg Williams: Should we have a way to say: I do 1.1 update but only 1.0 query? ←
20:41:29 <sandro> steve: No, let's avoid profiles.
Steve Harris: No, let's avoid profiles. ←
20:42:21 <sandro> greg: Are we telling them they can never be a conformant sparql imnplementation?
Greg Williams: Are we telling them they can never be a conformant sparql imnplementation? ←
20:42:42 <sandro> paul: If your where clause is not complete, ... that's fine.
Paul Gearon: If your where clause is not complete, ... that's fine. ←
20:43:00 <sandro> Greg: Someone else can define that language.
Greg Williams: Someone else can define that language. ←
20:45:13 <sandro> sandro: some sort of AT RISK bit with profiles, to give ourselves flexibility as the market develops.
Sandro Hawke: some sort of AT RISK bit with profiles, to give ourselves flexibility as the market develops. ←
20:45:51 <sandro> steve: fallback is SPARQL UPDATE with the WHERE clause being beyond 1.1 being AT RISK.
Steve Harris: fallback is SPARQL UPDATE with the WHERE clause being beyond 1.1 being AT RISK. ←
20:46:00 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
20:46:39 <sandro> luke: I thought we had consensus that we'd have multiple selects inside updates
Luke Wilson-Mawer: I thought we had consensus that we'd have multiple selects inside updates ←
20:47:42 <sandro> steve: I don't think we can handle a single request which does both an update and a query, BUT we will allow one endpoint to handle both.
Steve Harris: I don't think we can handle a single request which does both an update and a query, BUT we will allow one endpoint to handle both. ←
20:48:02 <sandro> steve: the format can't allow it
Steve Harris: the format can't allow it ←
20:48:07 <sandro> luke: no problem.
Luke Wilson-Mawer: no problem. ←
20:49:32 <sandro> PROPOSED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with SPARQL 1.1 Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27.
PROPOSED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with SPARQL 1.1 Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27. ←
20:53:14 <sandro> sandro: related is the idea of profiles.
Sandro Hawke: related is the idea of profiles. ←
20:53:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27.
PROPOSED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27. ←
20:54:02 <SteveH> this doesn't rule out profiles, just doesn't mention them explictly
Steve Harris: this doesn't rule out profiles, just doesn't mention them explictly ←
20:54:48 <sandro> greg: this rules out the case of update endpoints that doesn't even do 1.0
Greg Williams: this rules out the case of update endpoints that doesn't even do 1.0 ←
20:55:02 <SteveH> seconded
Steve Harris: seconded ←
20:55:04 <sandro> +1
+1 ←
20:55:08 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
20:55:30 <sandro> RESOLVED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27.
RESOLVED: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27. ←
20:55:57 <sandro> steve: this may be overly paranoid
Steve Harris: this may be overly paranoid ←
20:56:00 <sandro> (yeah)
(yeah) ←
20:56:30 <sandro> topic: issue-46
20:56:33 <sandro> issue-46?
20:56:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-46 -- Can INSERTS, DELETES, and other 'subupdates' be nested inside update language queries? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-46 -- Can INSERTS, DELETES, and other 'subupdates' be nested inside update language queries? -- OPEN ←
20:56:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/46
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/46 ←
20:57:19 <sandro> axel: where updates can somehow be nested? Ummmm NO.
Axel Polleres: where updates can somehow be nested? Ummmm NO. ←
20:57:33 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-46, no action required.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-46, no action required. ←
20:57:37 <sandro> +1
+1 ←
20:57:43 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
20:57:46 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-46, no action required.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-46, no action required. ←
20:57:46 <pgearon> +1
Paul Gearon: +1 ←
20:58:05 <LukeWM> Right, I'm off home, bye
Luke Wilson-Mawer: Right, I'm off home, bye ←
20:58:10 <AxelPolleres> Lunch break! thanks all the brave phone participants
Axel Polleres: Lunch break! thanks all the brave phone participants ←
20:58:20 <sandro> RRSAgent, make log public
RRSAgent, make log public ←
20:58:21 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
20:59:07 <Zakim> -LukeWM
Zakim IRC Bot: -LukeWM ←
21:59:51 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
(No events recorded for 60 minutes)
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
21:59:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a ←
21:59:52 <Zakim> Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei ←
22:00:10 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, Suite_a also has axelpolleres
Axel Polleres: Zakim, Suite_a also has axelpolleres ←
22:00:10 <Zakim> +axelpolleres; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +axelpolleres; got it ←
22:00:32 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
22:00:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a ←
22:00:33 <Zakim> Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres ←
22:06:31 <sandro> pgearon, you calling in?
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
pgearon, you calling in? ←
22:06:49 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: "is delete too verbose?"
Axel Polleres: "is delete too verbose?" [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:07:19 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: put it in telecon to see if it's still an issue
Axel Polleres: put it in telecon to see if it's still an issue [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:07:39 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to put ISSUE-48 on the table in one of the next TCs and ask whether it is still an issue
ACTION: Axel to put ISSUE-48 on the table in one of the next TCs and ask whether it is still an issue ←
22:07:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Put ISSUE-48 on the table in one of the next TCs and ask whether it is still an issue [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-11-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-137 - Put ISSUE-48 on the table in one of the next TCs and ask whether it is still an issue [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-11-10]. ←
22:08:05 <SteveH> kasei: 3 things... (service desc)
Greg Williams: 3 things... (service desc) [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:08:21 <SteveH> ... punting on dataset hoping void or similar will cover it
Steve Harris: ... punting on dataset hoping void or similar will cover it ←
22:08:46 <SteveH> ... void won't cover the default graph, would like property to link named graph to default graph
Steve Harris: ... void won't cover the default graph, would like property to link named graph to default graph ←
22:09:09 <SteveH> ... we have a single property that points to something that describes the dataset
Steve Harris: ... we have a single property that points to something that describes the dataset ←
22:10:14 <AxelPolleres> sd:dataset --> sd:hasDefaultGraph --> void ;
Axel Polleres: sd:dataset --> sd:hasDefaultGraph --> void ; ←
22:10:31 <AxelPolleres> sd:dataset --> sd:hasNamedGraph --> void ;
Axel Polleres: sd:dataset --> sd:hasNamedGraph --> void ; ←
22:10:49 <AxelPolleres> sd:dataset rdfs:range sd:Dataset ?
Souri Das: dataset rdfs:range sd:Dataset ? [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
22:11:19 <SteveH> kasei: we were going to have a note saying how to use it, but it seems core to SPARQL
Greg Williams: we were going to have a note saying how to use it, but it seems core to SPARQL [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:12:06 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: datasets in void are more than one graph, collections of graphs at the same domain
Axel Polleres: datasets in void are more than one graph, collections of graphs at the same domain [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:12:35 <SteveH> kasei: they're clarifying for the next iteration, [something about requirements]
Greg Williams: they're clarifying for the next iteration, [something about requirements] [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:13:07 <AxelPolleres> ... e.g. dppedia is a graph.
Axel Polleres: ... e.g. dppedia is a graph. ←
22:13:14 <AxelPolleres> s/graph/dataset/
Axel Polleres: s/graph/dataset/ ←
22:14:32 <SteveH> kasei: default graph is fundamental to SPARQL but not in other things
Greg Williams: default graph is fundamental to SPARQL but not in other things [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:15:26 <SteveH> ... we have a predicate that says "this is the description"
Steve Harris: ... we have a predicate that says "this is the description" ←
22:15:47 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: I would assume you want to give some description, stats etc
Axel Polleres: I would assume you want to give some description, stats etc [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:17:00 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: do we want to have a different predicate
Axel Polleres: do we want to have a different predicate [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:17:12 <SteveH> kasei: that's what we'd looked at punting
Greg Williams: that's what we'd looked at punting [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:17:30 <sandro> so the defaultGraph of an endpoint ... maybe be bnode.
so the defaultGraph of an endpoint ... maybe be bnode. ←
22:17:51 <sandro> endpoint hasDefaultGraph ...
endpoint hasDefaultGraph ... ←
22:17:52 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: might need two seperate descriptions
Axel Polleres: might need two seperate descriptions [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:19:18 <SteveH> sandro: you could also have the inverse relation, graph-has-proxy or so
Sandro Hawke: you could also have the inverse relation, graph-has-proxy or so [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:19:32 <SteveH> sandro: you could do it either way
Sandro Hawke: you could do it either way [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:20:40 <sandro> endpoint has dataset, dataset has namedGraph
endpoint has dataset, dataset has namedGraph ←
22:21:52 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: two descriptive properties which describe the dataset in terms that SPARQL cares about
Axel Polleres: two descriptive properties which describe the dataset in terms that SPARQL cares about [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:23:20 <SteveH> dajobe: if you've got 10M graphs could you not put up SPARQL endpoint to describe them
Dave Beckett: if you've got 10M graphs could you not put up SPARQL endpoint to describe them [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:23:37 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: we don't make this obligator
Axel Polleres: we don't make this obligator [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:23:39 <SteveH> y
Steve Harris: y ←
22:23:52 <SteveH> ... you could do it by asking a query about the graph names
Steve Harris: ... you could do it by asking a query about the graph names ←
22:24:05 <SteveH> kasei: I don't think you can always do that
Greg Williams: I don't think you can always do that [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:24:14 <sandro> So sparql:Dataset is a subset of Dataset, where one of the graph is the default graph, and any others have names.
So sparql:Dataset is a subset of Dataset, where one of the graph is the default graph, and any others have names. ←
22:24:33 <SteveH> kasei: some impls. require you to enumerate graphs with FROM NAMED
Greg Williams: some impls. require you to enumerate graphs with FROM NAMED [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:25:10 <SteveH> kasei: what if the store doesn't provide a default dataset, but it describes the URIs it could use
Greg Williams: what if the store doesn't provide a default dataset, but it describes the URIs it could use [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:27:21 <SteveH> LeeF: describing the dataset that's used if nothing else is defined - I think that's very usefulk
Lee Feigenbaum: describing the dataset that's used if nothing else is defined - I think that's very usefulk [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:27:39 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: we have sd:dataset already
Axel Polleres: we have sd:dataset already [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:27:55 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: lets add two more properties
Axel Polleres: lets add two more properties [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:28:42 <SteveH> kasei: we don't want to nail it down too much
Greg Williams: we don't want to nail it down too much [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:29:47 <SteveH> kasei: we only need the default graph on because that's unique to SPARQL, void does named graphs
Greg Williams: we only need the default graph on because that's unique to SPARQL, void does named graphs [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
22:33:28 <SteveH> [ LeeF drawing on flipchart ]
Steve Harris: [ LeeF drawing on flipchart ] ←
22:53:29 <LeeF> [ LeeF drawing beautiful pictures of turtles ]
(No events recorded for 20 minutes)
Lee Feigenbaum: [ LeeF drawing beautiful pictures of turtles ] ←
22:55:30 <SteveH> discussion about sparql:feature <feature> v's rdf:type <EndpointWithFeature>
Steve Harris: discussion about sparql:feature <feature> v's rdf:type <EndpointWithFeature> ←
22:57:56 <sandro> "from-able universe" instead of "available universe" ?
"from-able universe" instead of "available universe" ? ←
23:08:23 <SteveH> descriptions like:
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Steve Harris: descriptions like: ←
23:09:22 <SteveH> <EP> :defaultDataset _;ds . _:ds defaultGraph <dg> . <EP> :availableUniverse _:u .
Steve Harris: <EP> :defaultDataset _;ds . _:ds defaultGraph <dg> . <EP> :availableUniverse _:u . ←
23:09:34 <SteveH> [ see photos ]
Steve Harris: [ see photos ] ←
23:11:51 <SteveH> discussion of :feature predicate
Steve Harris: discussion of :feature predicate ←
23:12:08 <SteveH> kasei: OWL people will like it to be subclasses
Greg Williams: OWL people will like it to be subclasses [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:12:19 <SteveH> kasei: subclass of service for each feature
Greg Williams: subclass of service for each feature [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:14:45 <SteveH> kasei: for now I will create a class for range, and delay deciding if it should be modelled in some other way
Greg Williams: for now I will create a class for range, and delay deciding if it should be modelled in some other way [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:15:20 <SteveH> ... property functions - a lot of impl. use them, want some say to describe it
Steve Harris: ... property functions - a lot of impl. use them, want some say to describe it ←
23:15:32 <SteveH> ... here are the functions it supports
Steve Harris: ... here are the functions it supports ←
23:17:05 <SteveH> SteveH: they're not part of the language, and have issues, so we can't really describe them
Steve Harris: they're not part of the language, and have issues, so we can't really describe them [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:18:56 <SteveH> dajobe: leave property functions off the agenda unless you've got a lot of time
Dave Beckett: leave property functions off the agenda unless you've got a lot of time [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:19:49 <SteveH> LeeF: testcases
Lee Feigenbaum: testcases [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:22:09 <SteveH> LeeF: the impl. report generator was a bit slow
Lee Feigenbaum: the impl. report generator was a bit slow [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:23:24 <SteveH> sandro: OWL2 had two people overseeing testcases
Sandro Hawke: OWL2 had two people overseeing testcases [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:24:09 <dajobe> http://owl.semanticweb.org/page/OWL_2_Test_Cases
Dave Beckett: http://owl.semanticweb.org/page/OWL_2_Test_Cases ←
23:28:02 <SteveH> [ discussion of how testcases should be maintained ]
Steve Harris: [ discussion of how testcases should be maintained ] ←
23:30:15 <Zakim> + +0186598aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +0186598aabb ←
23:30:21 <SteveH> LeeF: lets try maintaining collaborativly, responsibility of chairs to assign actions when things are contentious
Lee Feigenbaum: lets try maintaining collaborativly, responsibility of chairs to assign actions when things are contentious [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
23:30:54 <bglimm> Zakim, +0186598aabb is bglimm
Birte Glimm: Zakim, +0186598aabb is bglimm ←
23:30:54 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
23:31:42 <kasei> ...coffee time...
Greg Williams: ...coffee time... ←
23:32:46 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
23:38:21 <LeeF> see http://thefigtrees.net/lee/dl/sparql-IMG00009-20091103-1508.jpg for picture
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Lee Feigenbaum: see http://thefigtrees.net/lee/dl/sparql-IMG00009-20091103-1508.jpg for picture ←
23:50:53 <LeeF> the unlabeled blue arc should be "default graph"
(No events recorded for 12 minutes)
Lee Feigenbaum: the unlabeled blue arc should be "default graph" ←
23:54:52 <LeeF> RRSAgent, pointer?
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
23:54:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc#T23-54-52
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-sparql-irc#T23-54-52 ←
00:00:10 <LeeF> consensus that we need a formal model (an algebra probably) for what all of the update operations mean, probably including what a dataset is/means
Lee Feigenbaum: consensus that we need a formal model (an algebra probably) for what all of the update operations mean, probably including what a dataset is/means ←
00:00:20 <LeeF> ...or a graph store
Lee Feigenbaum: ...or a graph store ←
00:00:24 <LeeF> ...and/or a graph store
Lee Feigenbaum: ...and/or a graph store ←
00:02:17 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
(Scribe set to Axel Polleres)
00:02:26 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
00:02:51 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: what did we miss in the Agenda?
Lee Feigenbaum: what did we miss in the Agenda? ←
00:03:21 <AxelPolleres> Dajobe: How will you do propertypaths?
Dave Beckett: How will you do propertypaths? ←
00:03:46 <AxelPolleres> ... seems that HCLS will need it
... seems that HCLS will need it ←
00:04:11 <AxelPolleres> ... will be substantial work for implementers
... will be substantial work for implementers ←
00:04:47 <AxelPolleres> other time allowed features:
other time allowed features: ←
00:05:28 <AxelPolleres> entailment, basic federated queries, function library
entailment, basic federated queries, function library ←
00:06:19 <AxelPolleres> BETWEEN would be sugar, IN probably not
BETWEEN would be sugar, IN probably not ←
00:06:28 <AxelPolleres> steve: I'd like IN
Steve Harris: I'd like IN ←
00:07:17 <AxelPolleres> axel: what about list accessors... we had them in property paths?
Axel Polleres: what about list accessors... we had them in property paths? ←
00:07:37 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: we probably should adjourn
Lee Feigenbaum: we probably should adjourn ←
00:08:24 <AxelPolleres> Dajobe: scope of function library?
Dave Beckett: scope of function library? ←
00:09:03 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
00:09:15 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: mainly xpath string and math functions
Lee Feigenbaum: mainly xpath string and math functions ←
00:09:31 <AxelPolleres> ... IF THEN, COALESCE, maybe
... IF THEN, COALESCE, maybe ←
00:09:45 <AxelPolleres> SteveH: group-concat
Steve Harris: group-concat ←
00:10:19 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: Birte? anything on entailment?
Lee Feigenbaum: Birte? anything on entailment? ←
00:11:12 <AxelPolleres> Birte: Entailment-telecon on Friday
Birte Glimm: Entailment-telecon on Friday ←
00:11:29 <AxelPolleres> ... we could quickly discuss entailment URIs
... we could quickly discuss entailment URIs ←
00:13:16 <AxelPolleres> Birte: RIF, OWL RL, RDFS don't have owl:imports
Birte Glimm: RIF, OWL RL, RDFS don't have owl:imports ←
00:14:12 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: Axel and I will go back to RIF and will probably suggest them to add something like rif:imports
Sandro Hawke: Axel and I will go back to RIF and will probably suggest them to add something like rif:imports ←
00:14:32 <AxelPolleres> ... alternative would be a RIF->RDF serialisation, prbably more difficult
... alternative would be a RIF->RDF serialisation, prbably more difficult ←
00:14:51 <AxelPolleres> Birte: there is RDF/XML for SWRL rules
Birte Glimm: there is RDF/XML for SWRL rules ←
00:15:56 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: needed talking to some people (Pat, Peter...)
Sandro Hawke: needed talking to some people (Pat, Peter...) ←
00:17:01 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: Does the client have an option to define the entailment?
Sandro Hawke: Does the client have an option to define the entailment? ←
00:18:37 <AxelPolleres> Axel: So far, we have only said that Entailment doc will define what X-Entailment means, but not how to request/advertise it.
Axel Polleres: So far, we have only said that Entailment doc will define what X-Entailment means, but not how to request/advertise it. ←
00:19:19 <bglimm> So far the client cannot choose or define its own entailment
Birte Glimm: So far the client cannot choose or define its own entailment ←
00:19:21 <AxelPolleres> ... Service Description has so far minimal means for it, but we had discussions of different use cases (Andy brought up that there might be a need for different entailments on different graphs)
... Service Description has so far minimal means for it, but we had discussions of different use cases (Andy brought up that there might be a need for different entailments on different graphs) ←
00:19:39 <AxelPolleres> ... so far, nothing in protocol
... so far, nothing in protocol ←
00:20:37 <AxelPolleres> Greg: doesn't that mean that you'd need to do all possible entailments (in case you have fwd-chaining)
Greg Williams: doesn't that mean that you'd need to do all possible entailments (in case you have fwd-chaining) ←
00:23:00 <AxelPolleres> Birte: sandro said at the moment you can't say you are an incomplete OWL/RDFS implementation.
Birte Glimm: sandro said at the moment you can't say you are an incomplete OWL/RDFS implementation. ←
00:23:20 <AxelPolleres> ... not sure whether we want to go that way.
... not sure whether we want to go that way. ←
00:23:32 <AxelPolleres> ... at the moment we can't describe that.
... at the moment we can't describe that. ←
00:25:22 <AxelPolleres> ... e.g. OWL2RL supporting inference engine can still do reasoning, but incomplete on OWL DL
... e.g. OWL2RL supporting inference engine can still do reasoning, but incomplete on OWL DL ←
00:26:31 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: OWL2RL doesn't do all it can (example by Paul)
Sandro Hawke: OWL2RL doesn't do all it can (example by Paul) ←
00:27:18 <AxelPolleres> Birte: OWL2RL is not really an entailment regime.
Birte Glimm: OWL2RL is not really an entailment regime. ←
00:29:36 <AxelPolleres> Axel: that was the whole idea of RIF-based entailment regime from my side.
Axel Polleres: that was the whole idea of RIF-based entailment regime from my side. ←
00:31:28 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: Don't see much sense in advertising entailment regime
Sandro Hawke: Don't see much sense in advertising entailment regime ←
00:31:49 <AxelPolleres> Axel: It makes sense to know which work is "already done" inside the query engine.
Axel Polleres: It makes sense to know which work is "already done" inside the query engine. ←
00:33:09 <AxelPolleres> ... but that's not trivial.
... but that's not trivial. ←
00:35:31 <AxelPolleres> Axel: I would personally like a way to request entailment, but that's personal opinion and at this point, I don't see it happen in the standard (more important things).
Axel Polleres: I would personally like a way to request entailment, but that's personal opinion and at this point, I don't see it happen in the standard (more important things). ←
00:36:25 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: is SPARQL extensible in the way that you can add such a request for entailment?
Sandro Hawke: is SPARQL extensible in the way that you can add such a request for entailment? ←
00:36:26 <pgearon> I figured that I could shoehorn this approach into anything the working group comes up with :-)
Paul Gearon: I figured that I could shoehorn this approach into anything the working group comes up with :-) ←
00:36:47 <bglimm> Some people do that, materialise inferences
Birte Glimm: Some people do that, materialise inferences ←
00:37:06 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: in the language it would be a syntax error, in the protocol it would be ignored.
Lee Feigenbaum: in the language it would be a syntax error, in the protocol it would be ignored. ←
00:38:02 <AxelPolleres> Steve: I have reservations on putting it in the language.
Steve Harris: I have reservations on putting it in the language. ←
00:38:33 <pgearon> I've been considering creating graphs based on original data that contains only entailments. So for a graph named foo:bar, then entailed data might exist in foo:bar_entailed. By default, queries will be applied to their union.
Paul Gearon: I've been considering creating graphs based on original data that contains only entailments. So for a graph named foo:bar, then entailed data might exist in foo:bar_entailed. By default, queries will be applied to their union. ←
00:38:42 <pgearon> I figured that I could shoehorn this approach into anything the working group comes up with
Paul Gearon: I figured that I could shoehorn this approach into anything the working group comes up with ←
00:39:20 <AxelPolleres> sandro: that would indicate the need for something like pragmas
Sandro Hawke: that would indicate the need for something like pragmas ←
00:39:35 <pgearon> bglimm, yes, this id for materializing inferences. This appears to be the best approach for rules. Though the entailed graph can be in RAM
Paul Gearon: bglimm, yes, this id for materializing inferences. This appears to be the best approach for rules. Though the entailed graph can be in RAM ←
00:39:45 <pgearon> s/id/is/
Paul Gearon: s/id/is/ ←
00:39:59 <kasei> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Greg Williams: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
00:40:01 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
00:40:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, bglimm ←
00:40:03 <Zakim> Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres ←
00:40:17 <sandro> pgearon, are you available to call in, if we want to talk about something interesing?
Sandro Hawke: pgearon, are you available to call in, if we want to talk about something interesing? ←
00:40:35 <pgearon> yes, though LeeF told me out of band that you were wrapping up
Paul Gearon: yes, though LeeF told me out of band that you were wrapping up ←
00:41:07 <pgearon> so I stayed out
Paul Gearon: so I stayed out ←
00:41:35 <Zakim> +pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon ←
00:42:27 <AxelPolleres> probably defining entailment-request as part of the protocol too much of a burden in this stage, even if a simple proposal was made.
probably defining entailment-request as part of the protocol too much of a burden in this stage, even if a simple proposal was made. ←
00:42:34 <pgearon> Hector Perez-Urbina had a very interesting paper at ISWC
Paul Gearon: Hector Perez-Urbina had a very interesting paper at ISWC ←
00:42:39 <sandro> sandro: I think it's okay to leave out client-server negotiation about entailment regimes from SPARQL 1.1 Folks can easily experiment for now now, and add it later.
Sandro Hawke: I think it's okay to leave out client-server negotiation about entailment regimes from SPARQL 1.1 Folks can easily experiment for now now, and add it later. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
00:42:57 <AxelPolleres> defninitly, not normative.
defninitly, not normative. ←
00:43:19 <AxelPolleres> paul: was looking at rules for entailment, cover most of what people wanna do.
Paul Gearon: was looking at rules for entailment, cover most of what people wanna do. ←
00:44:00 <AxelPolleres> </chairhat>http://axel.deri.ie/~axepol/presentations/20091029iann-etal-ISWC2009_GiaBATA.pptx<chairhat>
</chairhat>http://axel.deri.ie/~axepol/presentations/20091029iann-etal-ISWC2009_GiaBATA.pptx<chairhat> ←
00:44:33 <AxelPolleres> sandro: is this part of service description?
Sandro Hawke: is this part of service description? ←
00:45:09 <AxelPolleres> paul: we can put it there, but not per graph, probably, that's difficult with many graphs.
Paul Gearon: we can put it there, but not per graph, probably, that's difficult with many graphs. ←
00:45:20 <AxelPolleres> ... not standard, at least
... not standard, at least ←
00:45:55 <AxelPolleres> kasei: pointing to the non-mandatory parts of service-descriptions discussed earlier.
Greg Williams: pointing to the non-mandatory parts of service-descriptions discussed earlier. ←
00:46:44 <bglimm> so a graph/resource has a description that also says which entailments have been/will be applied to that graph?
Birte Glimm: so a graph/resource has a description that also says which entailments have been/will be applied to that graph? ←
00:47:38 <AxelPolleres> Axel: by the rdfs:domain of sd:supportedEntailment we prohibit that the same property is used for describing graphs
Axel Polleres: by the rdfs:domain of sd:supportedEntailment we prohibit that the same property is used for describing graphs ←
00:48:26 <AxelPolleres> discussion whether we need description whether one graph entails the other in SD.
discussion whether we need description whether one graph entails the other in SD. ←
00:48:43 <bglimm> but that is not what Andy wanted
Birte Glimm: but that is not what Andy wanted ←
00:49:56 <pgearon> bglimm, I'm describing a system where graph resources (ie. the name for a graph) has a description which says where entailments for it have been generated
Paul Gearon: bglimm, I'm describing a system where graph resources (ie. the name for a graph) has a description which says where entailments for it have been generated ←
00:49:59 <AxelPolleres> sandro: <g1> <..../entailment/RDFS> <g2>
Sandro Hawke: <g1> <..../entailment/RDFS> <g2> ←
00:50:19 <AxelPolleres> axel: uuuuh, sounds scary to reuse entailment URIs as predicates.
Axel Polleres: uuuuh, sounds scary to reuse entailment URIs as predicates. ←
00:50:23 <bglimm> ah, ok, sound quality is quite bad, so I can not understand everything
Birte Glimm: ah, ok, sound quality is quite bad, so I can not understand everything ←
00:51:22 <sandro> sorry, Birte, we're all tentative, so we're speaking more softly.
Sandro Hawke: sorry, Birte, we're all tentative, so we're speaking more softly. ←
00:51:27 <AxelPolleres> discussion whether this should be in mandatory part of SD... probably not.
discussion whether this should be in mandatory part of SD... probably not. ←
00:51:58 <AxelPolleres> Birte: use case of Andy, was querying for subclasses and/or direct-subclasses.
Birte Glimm: use case of Andy, was querying for subclasses and/or direct-subclasses. ←
00:52:24 <AxelPolleres> ... andy models this by having two graphs, one with simple only, one with RDFS closure
... andy models this by having two graphs, one with simple only, one with RDFS closure ←
00:55:21 <AxelPolleres> Axel: Question is: Do we want SD to cover that? Do we want existing properties such as sd:supportedEntailment to be usable that way (i.e. describing Graphs in the dataset, insead of services) ... I personally think we may want to start small.
Axel Polleres: Question is: Do we want SD to cover that? Do we want existing properties such as sd:supportedEntailment to be usable that way (i.e. describing Graphs in the dataset, insead of services) ... I personally think we may want to start small. ←
00:55:35 <AxelPolleres> ... in terms of what we put in the core part of SD.
... in terms of what we put in the core part of SD. ←
00:56:03 <AxelPolleres> Axel: propose to adjourn
Axel Polleres: propose to adjourn ←
00:56:29 <AxelPolleres> Thanks everybody!
Thanks everybody! ←
00:56:43 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make record public
rrsagent, make record public ←
00:57:32 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
01:02:23 <dajobe> I was refering to http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07.txt
Dave Beckett: I was refering to http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07.txt ←
01:02:40 <dajobe> e.g. Link: <http://example.com/TheBook/chapter2>; rel="previous";
Dave Beckett: e.g. Link: <http://example.com/TheBook/chapter2>; rel="previous"; ←
01:02:40 <dajobe> title="previous chapter"
Dave Beckett: title="previous chapter" ←
01:12:35 <kasei> Zakim, who is on the phone?
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Greg Williams: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
01:12:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_a, pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Suite_a, pgearon ←
01:12:36 <Zakim> Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: Suite_a has leef, steveh, sandro, dajobe, kasei, axelpolleres ←
01:12:49 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
01:12:58 <Zakim> SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SPARQL(TPAC)11:30AM has ended ←
01:12:59 <Zakim> Attendees were kasei, AxelPolleres, AndyS, bglimm, LukeWM, +1.919.543.aaaa, dcharbon2, Prateek, kjetil_, sandro, LeeF, SteveH, dajobe, pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were kasei, AxelPolleres, AndyS, bglimm, LukeWM, +1.919.543.aaaa, dcharbon2, Prateek, kjetil_, sandro, LeeF, SteveH, dajobe, pgearon ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-11-04 18:14:10 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'scribe syntax ok'
