IRC log of svg on 2009-11-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-svg-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim has joined #svg

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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM scheduled to start now

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Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

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Date: 19 November 2009

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GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has now started

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+??P2

20:01:52 [ed]

Zakim, ?? is me

20:01:52 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

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+Shepazu

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+??P3

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Zakim, who's here?

20:04:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ed, Shepazu, ??P3

20:04:16 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jwatt, Zakim, RRSAgent, ed, karl, anthony, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work, eseidelDesk

20:04:22 [jwatt]

Zakim, ?? is me

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+jwatt; got it

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+??P4

20:07:42 [anthony]

Zakim, ??P4 is me

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+anthony; got it

20:08:14 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/0041.html

20:08:49 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Roadmap

20:08:58 [jwatt]

Scribe: Jonathan Watt

20:09:02 [jwatt]

scribenick: jwatt

20:09:48 [jwatt]

Topic: Roadmap

20:09:50 [jwatt]

DS: the table is really out of date

20:12:57 [jwatt]

AG: Compositing could go to LC in Feb/Mar I think

20:15:16 [jwatt]

DS: how about May for CR then?

20:15:32 [jwatt]

ED: the earlier there's a testsuite the better

20:17:16 [jwatt]

DS: PR Aug; Rec Sep

20:17:21 [jwatt]

AG: sounds fine

20:17:36 [jwatt]

ED: so Filters

20:18:33 [jwatt]

ED: I'd prefer to have a couple more drafts before going to LC

20:18:51 [jwatt]

...especially since i'd like to put in the CSS canned filters, and perhaps new syntax as well

20:19:01 [jwatt]

...probably a few more primitives

20:20:06 [jwatt]

JW: I'd like to revisit the need for authors to specify filter regions, and filterRes

20:20:18 [jwatt]

ED: I would like to resolve that too

20:20:54 [jwatt]

ED: I think Sep for LC

20:21:01 [jwatt]

DS: I think that's pretty far away

20:23:43 [anthony]

Scribe: anthony

20:23:51 [anthony]

scribenick: anthony

20:24:30 [anthony]

DS: Let's say June 2010 for Use Case & Requirements for Layout

20:24:41 [anthony]

... He'd probably be working on the spec at the same time

20:24:49 [anthony]

... so let's say July 2010

20:24:58 [anthony]

... for FPWD

20:25:06 [anthony]

... then LC October

20:25:19 [anthony]

.... that would put CR in December

20:25:39 [anthony]

... and PR in June 2011

20:27:08 [anthony]

... Masking and Clipping?

20:27:13 [anthony]

AG: Who is doing that anyway?

20:27:26 [anthony]

DS: Emmons

20:27:55 [anthony]

ED: It's basically dealing with coordinate systems

20:28:22 [anthony]

DS: don't really need a lot of changes

20:28:26 [ed]

we have some issues raised on masks/clippaths, we should address those... and pinnedclip maybe

20:28:39 [anthony]

... I'm going to give it the same time line as Compositing

20:29:19 [ed]

...and perhaps use of clip/mask in CSS/HTML

20:29:55 [anthony]

ED: Not convinced we need a separate module for it

20:30:04 [anthony]

DS: You mean do it as part of SVG 2.0 instead?

20:30:14 [anthony]

ED: Yeah, although it might be good for other specs

20:30:32 [anthony]

DS: Media Access Events is the same, it's pretty much done

20:30:48 [anthony]

... just need someone to finish it

20:31:03 [anthony]

... Paint Servers

20:31:17 [anthony]

... I'm going to put that on the same time line as filters

20:31:26 [anthony]

... what do you think?

20:31:45 [anthony]

ED: Who is the editor for that?

20:31:53 [anthony]

DS: I would say Chris

20:32:03 [anthony]

ED: The guy from Inkscape

20:34:06 [anthony]

DS: Print spec

20:34:22 [anthony]

AG: Print will become Colour Management and Pagination

20:34:33 [anthony]

DS: I couldn't find a Pagination spec

20:34:40 [anthony]

AG: Currently there is none

20:34:53 [anthony]

ED: That line needs to be split up

20:35:06 [anthony]

... into two lines

20:37:05 [anthony]

DS: It went to LC in September?

20:37:10 [anthony]

AG: Yes, something like that

20:37:26 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGColor12/

20:37:52 [anthony]

ED: Looks like FPWD

20:38:13 [anthony]

DS: And it was October

20:38:32 [anthony]

... shouldn't it be called Colour Management?

20:40:08 [anthony]

AG: Yeah you're right

20:40:14 [anthony]

DS: Chris didn't think that there was that much more to do on the spec

20:40:37 [anthony]

... try to get Colour Management to LC in December

20:41:34 [anthony]

... For pagination I'm going to say May 2010 for FPWD

20:41:40 [anthony]

... LC December 2010

20:42:09 [anthony]

... CR March 2011

20:42:40 [anthony]

... PR October 2011

20:42:47 [anthony]

... Rec December 2011

20:44:31 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-Transforms/

20:45:17 [ed]

20 March 2009

20:45:25 [ed]

FPWD

20:47:14 [anthony]

DS: Transformations, LC in July

20:47:49 [anthony]

JW: If we combine with CSS is that a new document?

20:49:09 [anthony]

AG: October 2010 CR

20:49:41 [anthony]

DS: May, June for Rec?

20:49:43 [anthony]

AG: Ok

20:50:26 [anthony]

DS: Vector Effects

20:50:36 [anthony]

... I'm going to move those dates all back 1 year

20:51:18 [anthony]

JW: Should turn the dates into links to specs

20:51:43 [anthony]

... Mozilla will implement Vector Effects, ED are you happy with that?

20:52:10 [anthony]

ED: Not sure exactly how cheap some of the operations are

20:52:33 [anthony]

DS: Will Firefox implement this?

20:54:03 [anthony]

JW: The reason I ask is stroking a stroke is something unknown to current rendering libraries

20:54:36 [anthony]

s/Mozilla will/do you think we can/

20:55:10 [anthony]

JW: I think it's going to be harder to implement than it looks

20:55:26 [anthony]

DS: The feature set probably wont change that much

20:55:42 [anthony]

... but the basic syntax and what it allows you to do seems pretty straight forward to me

20:55:57 [anthony]

... do we think the language itself is going to change?

20:56:26 [anthony]

... the process allows us to go to CR

20:56:34 [anthony]

... and if we need to change it then go back to LC

21:00:20 [anthony]

ED: Maybe push that back a bit mre

21:00:26 [anthony]

s/mre/more/

21:00:33 [anthony]

... I'd say the same time as filters

21:00:45 [anthony]

DS: Webfonts

21:00:55 [anthony]

ED: Not sure what that is about really

21:01:01 [anthony]

DS: I'm going to say move that to CSS

21:01:12 [anthony]

ED: Chris will probably know more about that

21:04:11 [anthony]

DS: SVG 2.0 moving all the dates to 2011

21:07:06 [anthony]

Topic: IntersectionList

21:07:10 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0015.html

21:07:27 [anthony]

ED: That's the start of the thread and it goes on and on and on and on and on

21:08:14 [anthony]

... the node lists are static

21:08:26 [anthony]

... and that's what we say in the 2nd edition spec

21:08:45 [anthony]

... the second parameter to the method is it the root of the subtree to search or is it something else?

21:08:54 [anthony]

... I'm pretty sure Opera implemented to be the subtree

21:09:08 [anthony]

... the results are limited to be the children of the subtree element

21:09:17 [anthony]

DS: That seems kind of strange to me

21:09:29 [anthony]

JW: Limiting it to the subtree?

21:09:32 [anthony]

DS: Yes

21:09:35 [anthony]

JW: Why?

21:09:43 [anthony]

DS: Where is it likely that someone will use these things

21:10:07 [anthony]

... and I just don't see where moving it to a subtree makes sense

21:10:15 [anthony]

... from a performance stand point it makes sense

21:10:26 [anthony]

... but I don't know why someone would want to limit it to a subtree

21:10:35 [anthony]

JW: So a joining area of a drawing application

21:10:39 [ed]

s/and it goes on and on and on and on and on//

21:10:48 [anthony]

... so if can restrict it

21:10:58 [anthony]

... it makes sense

21:11:04 [anthony]

DS: Ok yeah, you're right

21:11:42 [anthony]

ED: Do you think it's a good idea to clarify it to be the subtree root?

21:12:05 [anthony]

DS: Which bit are saying? getIntersectionList?

21:12:06 [anthony]

ED: Yes

21:12:14 [anthony]

DS: It doesn't say that

21:12:44 [anthony]

JW: I don't see it makes sense any other way than what Opera has done

21:12:46 [ed]

[[referenceElement -- If not null, then only return elements whose drawing order has them below the given reference element.]]

21:12:54 [anthony]

DS: There are two interpretations of it

21:13:06 [anthony]

... I've never seen 'below' to define a subtree

21:13:23 [anthony]

... I think what they meant in the spec is rendering order

21:13:37 [anthony]

JW: I think rendering order doesn't make sense and no one has done that

21:13:47 [anthony]

DS: One thing you mentioned which is important

21:13:53 [anthony]

... is collision dectection

21:14:11 [anthony]

s/dectection/detection/

21:15:10 [anthony]

ED: Collision detection is pretty common for games

21:15:36 [anthony]

JW: In some 3D games I've seen, the character goes halfway through an object before the collision is detected

21:15:45 [anthony]

... in that case they are not using the geometry

21:16:22 [anthony]

ED: Do we want to resolve that it is a subtree

21:16:30 [anthony]

DS: It is clearly subtree

21:16:35 [anthony]

... that is not the intent of 1.1

21:16:41 [anthony]

.... we can change it for 2.0

21:16:47 [anthony]

ED: I don't agree witht hat

21:16:56 [anthony]

s/witht hat/with that/

21:17:01 [anthony]

... that's not the way I read it

21:17:09 [anthony]

DS: ASV6 did it the way I described

21:17:28 [anthony]

... I don't mind us changing it, I don't think that was the original intent

21:17:46 [anthony]

... and I'm not sure form a process point of view if we can change it that way

21:17:57 [anthony]

ED: It is ambiguous at the moment

21:18:08 [anthony]

... what we have not is not interoperable at the moment

21:19:01 [anthony]

JW: I'd have to side with DS about what it means

21:19:13 [anthony]

... but what they describe it is difficult to implement

21:19:54 [anthony]

... We are not doing any more errata for 2nd Edition are we?

21:20:02 [anthony]

ED: I wouldn't mind putting something in

21:20:09 [anthony]

... we already have test cases

21:20:35 [anthony]

DS: We could ask Chris, JF or Dino if we want to clarify

21:21:46 [anthony]

DS: In line with JW was saying, we should just define what we think is correct

21:22:59 [anthony]

... the way it's defined in 1.1 is not the we want people to do it anyway

21:23:05 [anthony]

... let's just start over

21:23:15 [anthony]

... and not fix the mistakes of the past

21:23:34 [anthony]

... at some point we have to move on

21:26:00 [anthony]

ED: Batik probably does it as well

21:26:22 [anthony]

... since CM implemented it

21:26:55 [ed]

s/implemented/wrote a test (that I'm reviewing) for/

21:31:56 [anthony]

... If you think it's not worth it and if you're willing to take the risk of different interpretations of it

21:32:04 [anthony]

DS: What if put the question to the list?

21:32:54 [anthony]

JW: I don't see any reason to restrict to a rect. I'd push for a new API

21:33:19 [anthony]

... maybe getIntersectionList could stay there and call into the more complex one

21:34:05 [anthony]

ED: People on the list seem to prefer the subtree model

21:34:28 [anthony]

DS: I think it's a waste of time to fix stuff that's broken from the start

21:34:46 [anthony]

JW: ED is going to do it. Then he can get on with reviewing tests

21:36:23 [anthony]

DS: Are you the same as Batik on tests?

21:36:30 [anthony]

ED: Not all of them

21:37:13 [anthony]

ACTION: Erik to Investigate getIntersectionList and add clarification to the specification

21:37:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2695 - Investigate getIntersectionList and add clarification to the specification [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-26].

21:38:45 [anthony]

Topic: Deprecating CSS Value

21:38:51 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0054.html

21:39:03 [anthony]

ED: Don't know if there is anything we can do

21:39:08 [jwatt]

s/CSS Value/CSSValue/

21:39:20 [anthony]

... but we could put some informative note in the 1.1 specification

21:39:29 [anthony]

... saying don't use this

21:39:33 [anthony]

... or deprecate it

21:39:39 [anthony]

DS: Not sure if you can deprecate it

21:39:54 [anthony]

ED: So an informative note

21:40:03 [anthony]

... it's a bit harder if we want to remove stuff I guess

21:40:23 [anthony]

... I don't think any user agent implemented that to a large degree

21:40:47 [anthony]

... Opera did for colour and it was hard

21:40:58 [anthony]

DS: Actually maybe we should deprecate it

21:41:03 [anthony]

... then we don't have to test it

21:41:12 [ed]

s/hard/hard to use/

21:41:33 [anthony]

ED: Is it possible for us to do that?

21:41:52 [anthony]

... what does it mean, it doesn't remove it?

21:42:14 [anthony]

DS: Discourage people from using it and tells them we will remove it later

21:42:53 [ed]

deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor (which inherit from CSSValue)

21:44:10 [anthony]

ACTION: Erik to Deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor in SVG 1.1 2nd Edition

21:44:10 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2696 - Deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor in SVG 1.1 2nd Edition [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-26].

21:46:03 [anthony]

Topic: CSSUnit and Values

21:46:19 [anthony]

DS: We will put this off for 2.0

21:46:33 [anthony]

RESOLUTION: We will put this off for SVG 2.0

21:46:42 [anthony]

ED: We should have an issue for it

21:46:55 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2278 maybe?

21:47:27 [anthony]

... maybe we should raise a new issue

21:49:51 [jwatt]

ISSUE-2300

21:49:53 [jwatt]

btw

21:49:59 [Zakim]

-anthony

21:50:05 [Zakim]

-Shepazu

21:50:11 [Zakim]

-ed

21:50:13 [Zakim]

-jwatt

21:50:15 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended

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Attendees were ed, Shepazu, jwatt, anthony

21:50:28 [anthony]

Zakim, bye

21:50:28 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #svg

21:50:37 [anthony]

RRSAgent, make minutes

21:50:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-svg-minutes.html anthony

22:50:34 [jwatt]

shepazu: if you send out that email to find out what the SVG-oldies reasoning was for making the second arg for getIntersectionList be paint order, can you CC me?