15:01:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
15:01:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-irc
15:01:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
15:01:21 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be aapi
15:01:35 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
15:01:37 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
15:01:37 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started
15:01:55 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:02:19 <oedipus> translation of aapi passcode: 2274
15:02:26 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:35 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:02:49 <davidb> Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter
15:02:52 <oedipus> GJR needs to leave after an hour
15:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Mozilla], Andi_Snow-Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita
15:03:15 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
15:03:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, Zakim, RRSAgent, Andi, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb
15:03:21 <oedipus> regrets: Simon_Pieters
15:03:57 <Andi> scribe: Andi
15:10:36 <oedipus> pointer, please?
15:11:59 <davidb> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role
15:12:10 <oedipus> thanks, davidb
15:12:15 <davidb> np
15:12:39 <Andi> links back to ARIA spec are not working
15:12:49 <Andi> ARIA spec has been split into sections
15:13:11 <Andi> check with Michael - do these need to be tagged differently now?
15:13:32 <Andi> DB: xml-roles > expose as object attribute in IA2 and ATK
15:13:42 <Andi> CS: and AriaRole UA property
15:14:01 <Andi> DB: note: xml-role="note"
15:14:12 <Andi> DB: probably the same for a lot of these
15:14:25 <Andi> s/UA/UIA/
15:16:25 <Andi> DB: MSAA uses xml-roles
15:16:45 <Andi> CS: treated like any generic element - editable text, readonly
15:17:04 <Andi> CS: not necessarily the best way to map - not sure I want to codify that
15:17:11 <davidb> In IA2 we expose an object attribute xml-roles with the roles specified via "role=" same with ATK
15:18:33 <Andi> navigation and note - use string mapping
15:19:06 <oedipus> dbolter, are the xml-roles the same as found in: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab ??
15:19:17 <Andi> CS: not sure we want to say every element should be mapped - if has ARIA probably should
15:19:44 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:19:50 <oedipus> andi, do you want me to scribe?
15:20:39 <oedipus> "Where possible, WAI-ARIA semantics MUST be exposed through the standard mechanisms of the desktop accessibility API. For example, for WAI-ARIA widgets, compare how the widget is exposed in a similar desktop widget. In general most WAI-ARIA widget capabilities are exposed through the role, value, Boolean states and relations of the accessibility API."
15:21:01 <Andi> CS: note and navigation are editable text with state of readonly for MSAA
15:21:26 <Tim> Tim has joined #aapi
15:22:08 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#scrollbar
15:22:15 <oedipus> still need an additional predefined role - "form" as opposed to just "search" - not all forms are search forms
15:22:27 <Andi> CS: MSAA - text
15:22:48 <Andi> DB: object attribute for IA2 and ATK
15:22:57 <Andi> CS: UIA - AriaProperty role
15:23:19 <Andi> DB: number of things we special case with landmarks
15:24:04 <Andi> CS: are landmarks all treated the same by FF?
15:24:13 <Andi> DB: some we consider strong and some weak
15:24:19 <Andi> DB: depends on what HTML element it's on
15:24:43 <Andi> DB: if put landmark role on table element, FF uses as hint to indicate it's not a layout table
15:26:21 <Andi> DB: role=application is strong landmark
15:26:42 <Andi> DB: navigation landmark on hyperlink, still need to expose state linked, etc.
15:27:46 <Andi> CS: MSAA for scrollbar - ROLE_SYSTEM_SCROLLBAR
15:28:07 <cyns> Scroll bar
15:28:17 <davidb> for ATK: ATK_ROLE_SCROLL_BAR
15:28:19 <oedipus> "form" versus "search" - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2009AprJun/0035.html
15:29:19 <cyns> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms788733.aspx
15:29:36 <Andi> Timer
15:30:32 <Andi> CS: no timer role in MSAA
15:30:46 <Andi> CS: UIA: use AriaRole property
15:31:19 <davidb> DB: (via IRC) just to be clear above, the xml-roles is not exposed via MSAA, but is in the object attributes of IA2 and ATK. we always expose the entire role string
15:32:01 <Andi> DB: expose some aria-live information
15:32:45 <oedipus> only item in "timer" row: "MacOS: AXGroup, AXRoleDescription: "timer""
15:33:32 <Andi> DB: don't map to role, default value of aria-live=off
15:34:15 <Andi> DB: same for log, status, tablist - polite default
15:38:16 <Andi> Relations
15:38:29 <Andi> CS: think there are no reverse relations for UIA
15:39:30 <Andi> CS: if have element with aria-describedby, go to the element referenced by aria-describedby and get the text
15:39:35 <oedipus> MSAA: Expose via accDescription
15:39:57 <oedipus> i/Relations/topic: Relations
15:40:06 <oedipus> i/Timer/topic: Timer
15:40:28 <oedipus> i/Scroll bar/topic: Scroll bar
15:40:53 <oedipus> rrsagent, please make minutes
15:40:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:41:26 <oedipus> chair: Cynthia_Shelly
15:42:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, please make minutes
15:42:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:42:49 <Andi> CS: will send to IE team to see if do any reverse relations
15:43:57 <oedipus> ASW: have section on strong versus weak semantics at beginning
15:44:19 <Andi> move example on labelleby after the table to the strong vs weak semantics section
15:44:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general
15:44:49 <oedipus> topic: IDREF
15:44:57 <oedipus> CS: changed format - now clearer
15:45:01 <oedipus> ASW: agree
15:45:10 <oedipus> topic: Group Position
15:45:23 <oedipus> CS: done some editing - still doesn't make complete sense to me
15:45:35 <oedipus> CS: better than previous text, but still needs work
15:45:48 <oedipus> CS: couldn't tell if applied only to IA2 and ATK or everywhere
15:46:01 <oedipus> CS: looks like should apply everywhere
15:46:20 <oedipus> ASW: agree - next section uses API relations (apiChildOf)
15:46:39 <oedipus> CS: paragraph about IA2 and ATK implementation stuff - reads as if should be "everything" now
15:46:47 <oedipus> topic: Actions Table
15:46:57 <oedipus> CS: haven't worked on it this week
15:47:07 <oedipus> CS: sent some feedback about Actions table to list
15:47:14 <oedipus> CS: will spend more time on it today
15:47:20 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:47:38 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:47:46 <oedipus> topic: Section 5.3
15:47:59 <oedipus> CS: new section i created based on comments when reviewed FAQ
15:48:10 <oedipus> CS: FAQ material re-written and put in this section
15:48:17 <oedipus> topic: Section 6
15:48:43 <oedipus> CS: not sure how to approach - not sure where to put this content -- worried about error detection/correction -- too weak?
15:48:49 <oedipus> CS: don't know what a layout API is
15:49:01 <oedipus> GJR: layout API = canvas or SVG?
15:49:24 <oedipus> CS: move up to mapping section with asterisk?
15:49:40 <oedipus> CS: need glossary definition for layout API
15:49:51 <oedipus> ASW: better in author error section
15:50:01 <oedipus> DB: are these AaronL's words?
15:50:03 <oedipus> CS: yes
15:50:32 <oedipus> ASW: author error 
15:50:35 <oedipus> CS: makes sense
15:50:49 <oedipus> CS: need definition for layout API - use of rendered text instead of DOM???
15:51:31 <oedipus> DB: what i read is that we ignore it; if UAs do that implications for DOM-based AT; UA has best knowledge of what is in DOM -- questoin of exposure to AT
15:51:44 <oedipus> ASW: aria-hidden used in 4.1 "General Rules"
15:52:04 <oedipus> ASW: if has global states and properties or aria state should be in tree
15:52:16 <oedipus> CS: have marked as error -- need help to define
15:52:29 <oedipus> ASW: rather not use term "layout API"
15:53:19 <oedipus> ASW: add bullet under 5.3 author errors stating: "Determining if aria-hidden reflects..."
15:53:38 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#author_errors
15:53:51 <oedipus> CS: could use author text instead of DOM -- may not need to state that
15:54:13 <oedipus> DB: extract from old guide re: ARIA
15:54:14 <davidb> DB: This used to be in the original guide: "This is not used in mapping to platform accessibility APIs. Instead, use information from the layout system to determine if the element is hidden or not. Advisory: it is incorrect use of ARIA if an element with aria-hidden="true" is visible. The aria-hidden property is exposed only so that DOM-based assistive technologies can be informed of visibility changes. However, the layout will be..."
15:54:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:54:45 <oedipus> CS: is that in version of guide that went out February 2009?
15:54:50 <oedipus> DB: was on mozilla web site
15:55:21 <oedipus> i/ASW: have section on strong/scribenick: oedipus
15:55:27 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:55:56 <oedipus> CS: covered all my questions
15:56:13 <oedipus> CS: will send request for feedback to IE team and finish reading through today
15:56:26 <oedipus> DB: by thursday midday EST hope to have something - hopefully before then
15:56:31 <oedipus> DB: email you, Andi?
15:56:36 <oedipus> ASW: yes
15:56:45 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
15:56:46 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:56:52 <davidb> oedipus: thanks for scribing!
15:56:53 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:57:02 <oedipus> zakim, please part
15:57:02 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Andi_Snow-Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita, David_Bolter, Tim_Boland
15:57:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
15:57:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
15:59:26 <oedipus> meeting: AAPI Teleconference
15:59:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
16:01:40 <oedipus> i/navigation and note - use string mapping/topic: navigation and note - use string mapping
16:01:48 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
16:02:27 <oedipus> i/xml-roles >/topic: Roles
16:02:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/17-aapi-minutes.html oedipus
16:03:15 <oedipus> andi, i think they are all ready for you -- i'll let you dismiss rrsagent after you decide that the minutes are cleaned
16:07:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
16:07:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items