15:38:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:38:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc
15:38:57 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:38:57 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:39:46 <manu> Scribe: Manu Sporny
15:39:49 <manu> Chair: Manu Sporny
15:40:03 <manu> Present: Manu_Sporny, Mark_Birbeck, Ivan_Herman, Shane_McCarron
15:40:12 <manu> Regrets: Ben_Adida
15:40:46 <manu> manu has joined #rdfa
15:41:07 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:41:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:41:11 <manu> rrsagent, make log public
15:56:24 <manu> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html
15:56:47 <manu> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:56:54 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:56:56 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:57:54 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:58:00 <Zakim> +??P20
15:58:05 <manu> zakim, I am ??P20
15:58:05 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:58:48 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:58:54 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
15:58:54 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
16:00:13 <manu> Topic: Action Items
16:01:01 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:03 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:12 <manu> ACTION: Manu to update the charter to talk about RDFa API [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:01:14 <manu> -- done
16:01:22 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
16:01:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:01:44 <manu> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:01:48 <manu> -- continues
16:02:08 <Zakim> +??P29
16:02:17 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ??
16:02:17 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
16:02:33 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:02:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:02:34 <Zakim> +Steven
16:02:47 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:02:47 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:02:48 <manu> Present+ Steven_Pemberton
16:03:31 <manu> Manu: any additions/changes to agenda?
16:05:14 <Steven> Nothing from me.
16:05:16 <manu> Manu: We had discussed RDFa API last week, any input Mark, Steven?
16:05:43 <manu> Mark: Some input - there are "Storage APIs" in Prototype, mootols, etc. They allow you to store name-value pairs.
16:06:00 <ivan> q+
16:06:25 <manu> Mark: LIttle storage packets at level of element. We should look at all of the APIs - the foundations... it would be good if the thing we came up with extended what developers are already working with.
16:06:53 <manu> Mark: We may look at looking at the "name" in the name-value pair as a full URI....
16:07:10 <manu> Mark: We should do it in such a way as to get it to fit with present tools.
16:07:12 <manu> ack ivan
16:07:29 <manu> Ivan: We agreed that RDFa API is a part of the charter... 
16:07:57 <manu> Ivan: We also want to say we will look at a more general case, will most probably publish a W3C NOTE on the issue, and we /may/ go beyond that.
16:08:05 <manu> Ivan: So, what you said Mark, is in line with what we discussed.
16:08:32 <Steven> ack me
16:09:05 <manu> Ivan: We try to make the distinction that we don't have the obligation to produce an TripleStore API.
16:09:07 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:09:07 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:09:14 <manu> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:09:57 <manu> -- continues
16:10:44 <Steven> I approve test #142
16:11:01 <manu> Shane: You raised an issue about TC 140 and why it shouldn't generate a triple.
16:11:18 <manu> Manu: Adding to agenda, review TC140
16:11:27 <manu> ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
16:11:36 <manu> -- continues
16:11:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:11:45 <manu> -- continues
16:12:36 <Steven> q+
16:12:39 <Steven> ack me
16:13:15 <manu> Manu: Any ideas on who we'd like to invite? Browser vendors?
16:13:42 <ivan> q+
16:15:18 <manu> Mark: We may want to discuss this with the browser vendors because we haven't been focusing on that in the past.
16:15:35 <manu> Steven: It would be good to get browser vendors involved.
16:16:16 <manu> Steven: This could be of interest to browser vendors as semantic objects in pages could be used to do commerce.
16:16:36 <manu> Steven: This would give browser vendors an incentive to participate - there is an economic incentive.
16:16:50 <manu> Ivan: I think we should be very conservative in what we sign ourselves up to do.
16:17:01 <manu> Ivan: This could become a great deal of work.
16:18:01 <manu> Ivan: We want to make sure that the group is independent and if we go toward browser vendors too much, it could be interpreted as we're doing all HTML5 work, which is not true.
16:18:38 <manu> ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:18:40 <manu> -- done
16:18:55 <manu> Shane: They're reserved, but they can start with 'xml'
16:19:06 <manu> ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
16:19:08 <manu> -- continues
16:21:32 <manu> Manu: Update on sparql.org - bug in librdfa. It uses datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral" not parseType="Literal"
16:21:42 <manu> Ivan: I disagree - you should canonicalize in both cases.
16:22:07 <manu> Ivan: It's not clear, but I don't think we should pursue it.
16:22:25 <manu> Shane: I do emit parsetype="Literal"
16:22:29 <manu> Topic: RDFa WG charter updates
16:23:25 <manu> Manu: I have started asking others to join... what happens if they don't get back to us in time?
16:23:34 <manu> Ivan: I have started working at charter at W3C.
16:23:50 <manu> Ivan: The process has been started.
16:23:53 <manu> Manu: Anything you need?
16:24:19 <manu> ACTION: Manu to convert WG Charter page to W3C charter format
16:24:32 <manu> Ivan: Would be nice to convert wiki page to HTML charter.
16:25:29 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:25:29 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:25:44 <manu> Shane: The only place CURIEs are defined normatively are in XHTML and RDFa.
16:25:52 <manu> Shane: CURIE spec is never going to be published as a REC...
16:26:04 <manu> Shane: There are other specs that need to refer to CURIEs normatively.
16:26:22 <manu> Shane: Do we need to separate out CURIE spec and make it normative?
16:26:40 <manu> Shane: @role, access and XMLEvents refer to CURIE normatively.
16:26:41 <Steven> WAI ARIA
16:26:46 <Steven> ack me
16:27:12 <manu> Steven: I don't think we're going to take them out of XML Events 2 - we'll still use the notation.
16:27:35 <manu> Ivan: Having it as a separate REC in RDFa group would be bad.
16:28:29 <manu> Topic: URIs in @rel, @rev, @property, @typeof and @datatype
16:29:05 <manu> Mark: So, the only real sustained objection to RDFa has been the use of CURIEs.
16:29:18 <manu> Mark: We do like CURIEs, and it does help more than it hinders in most cases.
16:29:28 <manu> Mark: But, it wouldn't hurt to support an alternative.
16:29:43 <manu> Mark: We could allow URIs where only CURIEs can be used.
16:29:59 <manu> Mark: It's a useful feature in it's own right... we should make it a greater priority.
16:30:29 <manu> Mark: If we can address this issue, we should.
16:31:16 <manu> Mark: In terms of the actual solution itself, the core of what I've argued is that we may be able to solve this by thinking about the problem differently.
16:31:29 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about relative URIs
16:31:35 <ivan> q+
16:31:42 <manu> Mark: We could say that a CURIE without a prefix defined is certainly not a CURIE and certainly is something else... a URI, for example.
16:32:05 <manu> Mark: This solution is backwards-compatible.
16:32:14 <manu> ack ShaneM
16:32:14 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about relative URIs
16:32:37 <manu> Shane: I want to confirm that we're discussing absolute URIs, not relative URIs.
16:32:57 <manu> Shane: What about rel="/foo/bar" ?
16:33:21 <manu> Shane: you can't do that... you have to start with a scheme name... it has to be an absolute URI.
16:33:38 <manu> Mark: There are two RFCs on this - one of them allows it, one of them discourages it... it's undefined.
16:33:53 <manu> Mark: So, if you do "file:FILENAME" - in lots of systems, that will be your desktop.
16:34:52 <manu> Shane: If we are talking about absolute URIs, this solution is dead-easy.
16:35:00 <manu> Shane: We should go ahead and plan to do it.
16:35:11 <manu> Shane: Mark, you use the term protocol, I think the term is "scheme"
16:35:26 <manu> ack ivan
16:35:37 <manu> Ivan: I agree, but there is one more step that we could make.
16:35:55 <manu> Ivan: What about CURIEs for @about and @resource?
16:36:56 <manu> Ivan: So, it's okay for @about and @resource, but what about @href and @resource?
16:37:20 <manu> Ivan: What about safe curies in @href?
16:37:25 <manu> Steven: We don't allow it in @href.
16:37:30 <manu> Ivan: I meant @href and @src.
16:37:46 <manu> Ivan: We don't even allow safe CURIEs in @href and @src...
16:38:01 <manu> Shane: The RDFa spec doesn't talk about it in @href and @src - we defer to the host language.
16:38:29 <manu> Ivan: Do we have a test case for this? Test case to test safe CURIEs in @href and @src.
16:38:54 <manu> Steven: Safe CURIEs wouldn't validate in @href and @src.
16:39:48 <manu> Manu: Any objections to moving forward with this?
16:40:03 <manu> Manu: Perhaps Mark can author some spec text and post it to the list?
16:41:48 <manu> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof and @datatype spec text
16:44:04 <manu> Mark: What about having a way to trigger this experimental behavior?
16:44:11 <manu> Topic: Triggering experimental behavior
16:44:33 <manu> Shane: Do we have an announcement mechanism for enabling this new URIs everywhere feature?
16:45:53 <manu> Mark: Perhaps we don't need that for this feature?
16:46:33 <manu> Manu: What if we do rel="rdfa:featureX"?
16:47:52 <manu> Mark: I think it isn't correct to do that. In-band triples shouldn't change the triples that the the processor is generating.
16:49:30 <manu> Topic: Test Case 140
16:50:03 <ShaneM> the test says <p xmlns:_="http://example.org/" property="_:test">Test</p> 
16:50:17 <ivan> q+
16:51:09 <Steven> property="rdfa:version"
16:51:11 <manu> Ivan: I think we got confused? Maybe had an HTTP 400 error.
16:51:44 <manu> Ivan: I think this is perfectly legal, and we should generate a triple?
16:51:48 <manu> Ivan: Wait a second...
16:51:52 <ivan> _:test
16:52:23 <manu> Shane: We say that '_' is a reserved prefix for bnodes.
16:52:46 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies
16:53:29 <manu> Shane: spec text says -  the mapping to use with the '_' prefix, is not explicitly stated, but since it is used to generate [bnode]s, its implementation needs to be compatible with the RDF definition.
16:53:45 <manu> Ivan: RDF doesn't say anything about '_'
16:54:14 <manu> Ivan: We have to agree how we specify blank-nodes.
16:54:28 <manu> Ivan: In TURTLE, the _ as a prefix defines blank nodes.
16:55:29 <manu> Manu: That sentence isn't clear.
16:55:36 <manu> Ivan: What is intended is clear to me...
16:55:52 <manu> Manu: I think we need errata text.
16:56:03 <manu> Ivan: Yes, we should have more errata text.
16:56:38 <manu> Shane: Yes, more errata text.
16:56:55 <manu> Manu: any objections to moving to ASK WHERE { ?s ?p ?o. } ?
16:57:14 <manu> Ivan: I may generate warning triples...
16:57:49 <ivan> <> ?p "Test" .
16:58:30 <manu> Manu: Everybody okay about using that SPARQL instead?
17:01:53 <Steven> zakim, mute me
17:01:53 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
17:01:53 <ivan> <> <http://example.org/test> "Test"
17:02:36 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:02:50 <Zakim> -Steven
17:02:51 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:02:54 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:02:54 <manu> Manu: Yes, we'll change the SPARQL to that.
17:02:58 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:03:20 <ShaneM> Question: in Mark's proposal for URI processing, should the parser ensure it is a valid URI ?
17:03:47 <manu> syntactically valid?
17:03:50 <manu> probably.
17:03:56 <ShaneM> kk thanks
17:04:05 <manu> although, that's going to be a PITA for my parser.
17:04:39 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:07:55 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, manu, in SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM
17:07:58 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:08:00 <Zakim> Attendees were manu, ShaneM, Ivan, markbirbeck, Steven
17:12:43 <ivan> ivan has left #rdfa
17:26:22 <manu> ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying that prefixes cannot be '_' character
17:28:02 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:28:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:31:30 <manu> rrsagent, bye
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to update the charter to talk about RDFa API [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [1]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-01-12
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [2]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-01-44
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-09-14
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [4]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-11-27
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [5]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-11-42
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [6]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-18-38
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [7]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-19-06
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to convert WG Charter page to W3C charter format [8]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-24-19
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof and @datatype spec text [9]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T16-41-48
17:31:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying that prefixes cannot be '_' character [10]
17:31:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc#T17-26-22
17:31:33 <manu> zakim, bye
17:31:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa