16:56:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
16:56:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-irc
16:56:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:56:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
16:56:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago
16:56:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
16:56:29 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2009
16:59:04 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
16:59:25 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Forms Working Group Face to Face Meeting
16:59:30 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
16:59:33 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/FtF_2009_11_TPAC_Agenda
17:01:08 <nick1> nick1 has joined #forms
17:01:42 <unl> unl has joined #forms
17:03:49 <nick> nick has joined #forms
17:06:06 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
17:06:30 <Zakim> HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
17:06:36 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:06:40 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
17:06:40 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
17:07:43 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
17:07:53 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
17:07:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha
17:07:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see ebruchez, wiecha, nick, unl, Steven, Zakim, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, raman, markbirbeck, trackbot
17:08:06 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
17:08:09 <Steven> zakim, dial suite_b
17:08:09 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
17:08:11 <Zakim> +Suite_b
17:09:15 <wiecha> zakim, mute me
17:09:15 <Zakim> wiecha should now be muted
17:09:16 <John_Boyer> scribe: Nick
17:09:23 <John_Boyer> scribenick: nick
17:09:43 <John_Boyer> Topic: Custom XPath Functions
17:13:00 <Kai> Kai has joined #forms
17:16:57 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Custom_XPath_functions?highlight=%28CategoryXForms12%29
17:17:55 <nick> Erik: We decided on 2009-10-28 call: 
17:18:04 <nick> ... do not have side-effects (unless they call implementation-defined XPath functions which do have side-effects). 
17:18:12 <nick> ... follow a syntax close to a subset of what XSLT 2 supports. 
17:18:21 <nick> ... support a simple syntax, which can later be expanded (e.g. with something closer from XSLT 2's sequence constructors). 
17:18:29 <nick> ... can be defined and used with XPath 1.0. 
17:18:35 <nick> ... do not support calling XForms actions. 
17:18:42 <nick> ... do not support creating local instances. 
17:19:19 <nick> Erik: see http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Custom_XPath_functions#head-7b66eefe36e455ed1e83c6aea3c24e6125f90278 for syntax
17:26:16 <klotz> A good read from dpawson as usual on xslt2 functions odd corners: http://dpawson.co.uk/xsl/rev2/functions2.html
17:26:22 <nick> Erik: Do we want to scope function definitions?
17:27:56 <nick> Erik: We currently have encapsulation by groups and repeats, it is logical for variables, it makes sense for functions
17:30:54 <nick> ebruchez: In xslt a function starts with an almost empty context it only has access to the global variables
17:34:02 <nick> ebruchez: we could decide to give it the context of where the function is defined
17:35:57 <nick> nick: We should to be careful that this doesn't influence support of function libraries
17:42:36 <nick> John_Boyer: I think the functions should be pure (not be able to access the current context, nor instances)
17:43:08 <John_Boyer> s/I think the functions should be/I thought the functions would be/
17:44:06 <nick> ebruchez: Our container controls are blocks
17:45:18 <nick> klotz: what about input
17:46:41 <John_Boyer> We're discussing the idea of having xpaths within function bodies are evaluated relative to the inscope eval context of the function declaration... not the context where the function *call* appears.
17:46:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:46:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:47:10 <nick> ebruchez: We could also see this as groups, if we support function definitions inside an input
17:47:55 <Steven> Present: Charlie(remote), Erik, Leigh, Uli, Raman, Steven, Nick, John
17:48:00 <Steven> Chair: John
17:48:25 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:48:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:48:43 <nick> ebruchez: we should ask Micheal Kay why they don't support this in XSLT 2.0
17:51:13 <nick> unl: Why don't we use dynamic skoping
17:51:34 <wiecha> s/skoping/scoping
17:53:28 <nick> klotz: dynamic scoping will result in a lot of difficulties 
17:59:15 <Zakim> -wiecha
17:59:45 <John_Boyer> <xf:repeat nodeset="purchaseOrder/row">
18:01:22 <John_Boyer> <xf:function name="my:line-total" as="number">
18:01:45 <John_Boyer> <xf:result select="../quantity * ../unitCost"/>
18:01:50 <John_Boyer> </xf:function>
18:02:08 <John_Boyer> <xf:output value="my:line-total()"/>
18:02:12 <John_Boyer> </xf:repeat>
18:02:39 <nick> nick: We have three options:
18:03:10 <nick> 1) Empty context (no variables, empty sequence)
18:04:24 <nick> 2) The context of where it is defined (variables defined on the preceding:: , and the current context node, position, ...)
18:05:15 <nick> 3) The context of where you call the function
18:05:28 <nick> nick: I'm opposed to option 3
18:05:40 <nick> klotz: I'm also apposed to option 3
18:06:23 <John_Boyer> the above example could also be done without local functions as follows:
18:06:26 <John_Boyer> In the model:
18:06:38 <John_Boyer> <xf:function name="my:line-total" as="number">
18:06:57 <John_Boyer> <xf:param name="quantity" as="number"/>
18:07:10 <John_Boyer> <xf:param name="unitCost" as="number"/>
18:07:57 <John_Boyer> <xf:result select="$quantity * $unitCost"/>
18:08:02 <John_Boyer> </xf:function>
18:08:44 <John_Boyer> Then, out in the UI repeat:
18:08:55 <John_Boyer> <xf:repeat nodeset="purchaseOrder/row">
18:08:57 <John_Boyer> ...
18:09:23 <John_Boyer> <xf:output value="xf:my:line-total(../quantity, ../unitCost)"/>
18:09:26 <John_Boyer> </xf:repeat>
18:20:19 <nick> John_Boyer: we need referential transparency 
18:20:37 <nick> and we can do this by running the expressions
18:21:22 <klotz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referential_transparency_%28computer_science%29
18:30:27 <Zakim> +[IBM]
18:30:29 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
18:30:29 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
18:32:05 <unl> s/skoping/scoping/
18:33:20 <nick> ebruchez: You have cases where you need functions that are only used in the UI, and don't need to be available in the Model
18:34:09 <nick> klotz: It sounds rather convenient to be able to get the context
18:34:32 <nick> John_Boyer: you can always pass it, so it shouldn't be a problem to get the context
18:36:08 <Zakim> -wiecha
18:36:19 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
18:59:51 <nick> nick has joined #forms
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19:03:42 <unl> unl has joined #forms
19:05:02 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
19:05:09 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
19:05:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_b
19:05:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, unl, ebruchez, klotz, nick, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
19:06:49 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
19:08:37 <Zakim> +Jan
19:09:02 <wiecha> zakim, Jan is wiecha
19:09:02 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
19:10:16 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
19:12:41 <nick> ebruchez: I would propose to send an e-mail to Micheal Kay to ask about the closure (context).
19:13:56 <John_Boyer> action: Erik to write Michael Kay and get back to group with answers to 1) any significant problems with sending data context to function, 2) any significant problems with locally declared functions.
19:13:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-577 - Write Michael Kay and get back to group with answers to 1) any significant problems with sending data context to function, 2) any significant problems with locally declared functions. [on Erik Bruchez - due 2009-11-10].
19:17:14 <nick> klotz: does transitivity apply with calling functions
19:20:29 <nick> ebruchez: When implementing we can provide other function libraries when you need to evaluate the expressions inside the custom function
19:22:33 <nick> ebruchez: so it looks like we can decide what the closure is, and implement it
19:23:18 <nick> <group>
19:23:18 <nick> <function name="x:f1">...</
19:23:38 <nick> <function name="x:f2">...</function>
19:24:39 <nick>  <function name="x:f3"><sequence select="x:f2()"</function>
19:24:52 <nick>   <group
19:25:37 <nick>     <function name="x:f1"><sequence select="x:f3()"</function>
19:25:50 <nick>     <function name="x:f2">...</function>
19:26:00 <nick> could be implemented
19:30:41 <nick> John_Boyer: variables can only access only access preceding siblings or preceding siblings of any parent
19:31:10 <John_Boyer> functions at a scope level will be available to all xpaths at that level, but if we do variables, they would be processed in order, and if a function is invoked before the variable exists, then you would get an error
19:34:41 <Kai> Kai has joined #forms
19:35:42 <Steven> Kai Scheppe (Deutsche Telekom) joins as observer
19:38:50 <Steven> Kai, is this personal interest because you used to work at Mozquito, or is there an implied Deutsche Telekom interest?
19:43:56 <Kai> Currently I am surveying the status of working groups that might be of interest to Deutsche Telekom.  We do have quite a few forms and are hampered by the expected problems regarding forms.  Currently there is no active interest by Deutsche Telekom.
19:44:41 <Kai> Of course, I also would like to see, out of personal interest, what XForms has developed into :-)
19:48:40 <John_Boyer> the 'as' attribute should allow the five basic types of XPath 1.0, which should be converted to predefined xpath 2.0 types if the xpath engine is a 2.0 engine
19:50:27 <Steven> For the benefit of newer members of the group, Kai is acknowledged in XForms 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-xforms-20031014/sliceI.html
19:50:30 <nick> ebruchez: we could require support for a subset of the xslt 2.0 as (only item()*, node()*, not element(foo:bar))
19:52:51 <John_Boyer> if 'as' uses xpath 2.0 types, that is just a side effect of writing an xpath 2.0 specific function, whose body will have lots of Xpath 2.0 expressions in it, so it just won't run in an xpath 1.0 engine anyway
19:57:28 <Zakim> -wiecha
19:57:32 <nick> ebruchez: we could say that in an XPath 1.0 engine only supports the 5 basic types, the XPath 2.0 version supports the XPath 2.0 'as' attribute and the 5 basic XPath 1.0 types
19:58:39 <John_Boyer> Action: Erik to amend custom xpath functions spec to say that an XPath 1.0 engine only supports the 5 basic types, the XPath 2.0 version supports the XPath 2.0 'as' attribute and the 5 basic XPath 1.0 types (converted to predefined xpath 2.0 types)
19:58:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-578 - Amend custom xpath functions spec to say that an XPath 1.0 engine only supports the 5 basic types, the XPath 2.0 version supports the XPath 2.0 'as' attribute and the 5 basic XPath 1.0 types (converted to predefined xpath 2.0 types) [on Erik Bruchez - due 2009-11-10].
20:11:37 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
20:14:21 <nick> ebruchez: Supporting multiple sequence elements in the body of a function requires some extra work, because in xpath 1.0 when you combine sequences of node()* and number you have to convert the number to a text node
20:23:04 <nick> are discussing of doing a more general module that can be used by both XSLT 2.0 and XForms
20:23:21 <John_Boyer> or by others besides just xforms
20:24:18 <John_Boyer> Erik says that for xpath 1.0, use of multiple sequence elements for function nodeset result should produce an error if not all sequences are nodesets
20:31:47 <John_Boyer> Action: make ednote out of issue of whether function names can be NCName
20:31:47 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - make
20:32:06 <John_Boyer> Action: Erik ednote out of issue of whether function names can be NCName
20:32:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-579 - Ednote out of issue of whether function names can be NCName [on Erik Bruchez - due 2009-11-10].
20:43:05 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
20:43:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
21:18:47 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
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21:34:42 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
21:34:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_b
21:34:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see klotz, John_Boyer, nick, ebruchez, wiecha, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
21:36:27 <Zakim> +??P3
21:36:38 <wiecha> zakim, P3 is wiecha
21:36:38 <Zakim> sorry, wiecha, I do not recognize a party named 'P3'
21:36:50 <wiecha> zakim ??P3 is wiecha
21:37:02 <wiecha> zakim, ??P3 is wiecha
21:37:02 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
21:41:22 <unl> unl has joined #forms
21:43:35 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
21:43:42 <John_Boyer> scribe: Uli
21:43:46 <John_Boyer> scribenick: unl
21:44:36 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/CategoryXForms12
21:44:54 <unl> John_Boyer: talk about external model or dialog?
21:45:06 <unl> klotz: components?
21:45:41 <unl> John_Boyer: some kind of external model needed in short term
21:46:40 <unl> wiecha: 1.2?
21:47:54 <unl> wiecha: got a list of 12 patterns
21:48:25 <unl> John_Boyer: would be good to hear what the patterns are
21:48:52 <unl> John_Boyer: wiki?
21:50:04 <unl> Topic: External Models
21:50:56 <unl> John_Boyer: when we have @src, we might might have to have @resource too
21:51:46 <unl> John_Boyer: for the same reasons we have @resource on xf:instance
21:51:54 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Externally_defined_models_with_src_attribute?highlight=%28CategoryXForms12%29
21:52:15 <John_Boyer> resource allows the save/reload capability for document centric xforms, e.g. ODF
21:53:03 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/ModelEnhancementRequirements?highlight=%28CategoryXForms12%29
21:55:16 <unl> wiecha: do we tackle all those fancy reqs like specialization?
21:55:50 <unl> Steven: no, just the model extenalized as a whole 
21:56:05 <unl> John_Boyer: how do you do paging?
21:56:33 <unl> Steven: not my point, just want to reuse the model
21:57:27 <unl> Raman: maybe the thing steven needs is an api
21:59:23 <unl> Steven: we don't have a name for instances with their binds
21:59:26 <unl> klotz:
21:59:36 <unl> binds can cross instances
21:59:43 <unl> Steven: but they don't have to
21:59:54 <unl> klotz: so we are talking about components
22:01:09 <unl> Raman: we could do the whole thing (model, binds, ui) as compnents or just @src
22:01:46 <unl> ebruchez: we have an implementation of what you describe (incl. private data model)
22:02:08 <unl> Raman: the public might just be a projection of the private data model
22:03:19 <unl> unl: would like to talk only about @src, not the component stuff right know
22:03:24 <unl> wiecha: me too
22:06:58 <John_Boyer> Erik is doing an xi:include example
22:07:35 <John_Boyer> <xi:include href=".../resources-model.xml" ...
22:08:18 <John_Boyer> includes the model inline in the page
22:08:30 <unl> John_Boyer: no nested models?
22:08:45 <unl> ebruchez: no, just included in parallel
22:10:58 <unl> John_Boyer: may become problematic
22:11:27 <unl> John_Boyer: you get frankenstein forms where you could move data between models
22:11:40 <unl> ebruchez: what's wrong with that?
22:11:49 <unl> klotz: nothing, just gon on
22:11:57 <unl> s/gon/go/
22:12:30 <unl> John_Boyer: fragments?
22:12:38 <unl> klotz: only with xpointer
22:13:28 <unl> John_Boyer: didn't understand what's the problem with nested models
22:13:46 <unl> klotz: event bubbling and so on?
22:16:56 <unl> ebruchez: benefit is simplicity
22:17:47 <unl> s/benefit is simplicity/benefit of non-nested model inclusion is simplicity/
22:22:34 <unl> klotz: we should go off and design compenents
22:24:46 <unl> ebruchez demoing orbeon impl of components
22:27:42 <unl> http://www2.orbeon.com:8080/orbeon/xforms-controls/
22:29:57 <ebruchez>         <fr:tutorial-davinci bind="last-name-bind">
22:29:57 <ebruchez>             <xforms:label>Last name: </xforms:label>
22:29:58 <ebruchez>             <xforms:hint>Please enter your last name</xforms:hint>
22:29:58 <ebruchez>             <xforms:alert/>
22:29:58 <ebruchez>         </fr:tutorial-davinci>
22:31:46 <ebruchez> <xbl:xbl xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
22:31:46 <ebruchez>          xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms"
22:31:46 <ebruchez>          xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
22:31:47 <ebruchez>          xmlns:ev="http://www.w3.org/2001/xml-events"
22:31:48 <ebruchez>          xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"
22:31:49 <ebruchez>          xmlns:fr="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/form-runner"
22:31:50 <ebruchez>          xmlns:xbl="http://www.w3.org/ns/xbl"
22:31:51 <ebruchez>          xmlns:xxbl="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xbl">
22:31:52 <ebruchez>     <xbl:binding element="fr|tutorial-davinci">
22:31:54 <ebruchez>         <xbl:implementation>
22:31:56 <ebruchez>             <!-- Local model -->
22:31:58 <ebruchez>             <xforms:model>
22:32:01 <ebruchez>                 <xforms:instance>
22:32:02 <ebruchez>                     <value/>
22:32:05 <ebruchez>                 </xforms:instance>
22:32:06 <ebruchez>             </xforms:model>
22:32:08 <ebruchez>         </xbl:implementation>
22:32:10 <ebruchez>         <xbl:template>
22:32:12 <ebruchez>             <!-- Outer group implementing the single-node binding -->
22:32:15 <ebruchez>             <xforms:group xbl:attr="model context ref bind" xxbl:scope="outer">
22:32:16 <ebruchez>                 <!-- Copy LHHA elements if any -->
22:32:19 <ebruchez>                 <xbl:content includes="xforms|label,xforms|help,xforms|hint,xforms|alert"/>
22:32:21 <ebruchez>                 <!-- Inner group -->
22:32:22 <ebruchez>                 <xforms:group xxbl:scope="inner">
22:32:24 <ebruchez>                     <!-- Variable pointing to external single-node binding -->
22:32:27 <ebruchez>                     <xxforms:variable name="binding" as="node()?">
22:32:28 <ebruchez>                         <xxforms:sequence select="." xxbl:scope="outer"/>
22:32:30 <ebruchez>                     </xxforms:variable>
22:32:32 <ebruchez>                     <!-- When the external single-node binding comes to life or its value changes, copy it to the
22:32:35 <ebruchez>                          local value after reversing it -->
22:32:37 <ebruchez>                     <xforms:group ref="$binding">
22:32:39 <ebruchez>                         <xforms:setvalue ev:event="xforms-enabled xforms-value-changed"
22:32:41 <ebruchez>                                          ref="instance()" value="codepoints-to-string(reverse(string-to-codepoints($binding)))"/>
22:32:45 <ebruchez>                     </xforms:group>
22:32:47 <ebruchez>                     <!-- Input points to the internal value -->
22:32:48 <ebruchez>                     <xforms:input ref="instance()">
22:32:51 <ebruchez>                         <!-- When the local value changes, copy it to the external single-node binding after reversing it -->
22:32:53 <ebruchez>                         <xforms:setvalue ev:event="xforms-value-changed"
22:32:55 <ebruchez>                                          ref="$binding" value="codepoints-to-string(reverse(string-to-codepoints(context())))"/>
22:32:58 <ebruchez>                     </xforms:input>
22:33:00 <ebruchez>                 </xforms:group>
22:33:03 <ebruchez>             </xforms:group>
22:33:05 <ebruchez>         </xbl:template>
22:33:06 <ebruchez>     </xbl:binding>
22:33:08 <ebruchez> </xbl:xbl>
22:33:40 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
22:33:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-forms-minutes.html Steven
22:56:02 <unl> klotz: so the question is if we do xbl
23:08:30 <Zakim> -wiecha
23:36:11 <nick> nick has joined #forms
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23:37:33 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
23:37:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite_b
23:37:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, nick, ebruchez, wiecha, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
23:39:51 <unl> unl has joined #forms
23:49:56 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
23:50:13 <klotz> XBL binding for xf:output bound to xsd:date in Mozilla: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:XForms/Formatting_a_date
23:53:07 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
23:57:10 <Zakim> +??P2
23:57:26 <wiecha> zakim, ??P2 is wiecha
23:57:26 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it