IRC log of rdfa on 2009-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:29:37 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:29:38 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc

14:29:56 [manu]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:29:56 [Zakim]

ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes

14:30:04 [manu]

Scribe: Manu Sporny

14:30:11 [manu]

ScribeNick: manu

14:30:20 [manu]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force

14:30:27 [manu]

Chair: Ben Adida

14:30:41 [manu]

Present: Manu_Sporny, Ben_Adida, Shane_McCarron

14:31:08 [manu]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Oct/0075.html

14:31:24 [manu]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html

14:53:34 [manu]

rrsagent, make log public

14:53:50 [manu]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:53:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu

14:54:33 [manu]

Regrets: Steven_Pemberton, Mark_Birbeck, Ivan_Herman

14:56:55 [manu]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:56:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu

14:57:46 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #rdfa

14:59:27 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

14:59:34 [Zakim]

+McCarron

15:01:54 [ShaneM]

zakim, McCarron is ShaneM

15:01:54 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

15:02:23 [manu]

zakim, code?

15:02:25 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu

15:03:13 [Zakim]

+David

15:03:22 [manu]

zakim, I am David

15:03:23 [Zakim]

ok, manu, I now associate you with David

15:04:53 [manu]

zakim, David is Manu

15:05:02 [Zakim]

+Manu; got it

15:05:21 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

15:05:40 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:07:45 [manu]

Topic: Action Items

15:07:56 [manu]

http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

15:08:39 [manu]

ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

15:08:46 [manu]

-- continues

15:08:53 [manu]

Ben: Updated it a bit

15:09:01 [manu]

Manu: I also fixed some very small issues

15:09:21 [manu]

Manu: Ivan had an issue with mentioning the Microsoft extensibility proposal.

15:09:33 [manu]

Ben: We're interested in supporting that language extension proposal.

15:10:49 [benadida]

--> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter

15:11:47 [manu]

(side-bar Google Chrome discussion) Everybody seems to love it.

15:12:14 [manu]

Ben: Manu has been asked to co-chair RDFa WG.

15:12:24 [manu]

Ben: We have 12 months to do the work and 6 months of slack.

15:12:35 [manu]

Ben: It does assume that it is going to take RDFa 1.1 to REC.

15:13:20 [manu]

Manu: Sent it off for review by HTML WG chairs.

15:15:16 [manu]

ACTION: Ivan to talk with Peter Mika at ISWC2009 about RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

15:15:18 [manu]

-- done

15:15:54 [manu]

ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

15:16:05 [manu]

-- continue

15:18:28 [manu]

ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

15:18:37 [manu]

-- continues

15:19:02 [manu]

ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:19:13 [benadida]

--> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript

15:20:53 [manu]

Ben: Is this test good?

15:21:12 [manu]

Shane: Opera isn't the special case, Opera is the one that works correctly.

15:21:35 [manu]

Shane: It seems as if this works for all cases.

15:21:54 [manu]

-- done

15:22:44 [manu]

ACTION: Manu speak with Andy Seaborne about SPARQL.org implementation re: c14n [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

15:22:48 [manu]

-- continues

15:23:02 [manu]

Manu: Jeremy thinks it is a bug in sparql.org

15:23:18 [manu]

Manu: Andy seems to think it is, but hasn't responded yet (I just e-mailed him last night)

15:23:24 [manu]

ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

15:23:40 [manu]

-- continues

15:24:26 [manu]

Topic: RDFa WG Charter

15:24:32 [manu]

Ben: Any additions/changes?

15:30:39 [manu]

Manu: We might want to put a validator as a work item for the RDFa WG.

15:33:15 [manu]

Manu: We might also want to produce an Javascript-based live editor for RDFa.

15:34:12 [manu]

Shane: We might also want to look at XMLSPEC - W3C recs could be semantically rich.

15:35:21 [manu]

Manu: We would probably want to say that we'd work with SVG WG and ODF standards body on integrating RDFa

15:35:35 [manu]

Manu: We should create a test suite for SVG.

15:35:46 [manu]

Shane: There are people that continue to need modularization.

15:36:39 [manu]

Shane: Maybe RDFa WG could work on modularization - it's specific to W3C. RDFa depends on modularization now.

15:37:14 [manu]

Manu: We might want to discuss this with the people at Microsoft that are working on decentralized extensibility.

15:41:27 [benadida]

ACTION: Manu to kick some butt on mailing list re: test cases

15:41:43 [manu]

Topic: Test Cases

15:42:38 [manu]

Manu: I'll try to drive the discussion via the mailing list and keep pressing people to review them.

15:43:04 [manu]

Shane: We may want to take a deadline approach - no comments means the TC is approved.

15:43:16 [manu]

Topic: RDFa 1.1 issues

15:43:41 [manu]

Ben: Where do we stand on these RDFa 1.1 issues

15:44:28 [manu]

Manu: My preference is to work on these in this order: @profile, DOM API, URIs everywhere, @typeof

15:44:30 [ShaneM]

zakim, I am McCarron

15:44:30 [Zakim]

sorry, ShaneM, I do not see a party named 'McCarron'

15:45:25 [manu]

Ben: Shane, what do you think should happen when @typeof is empty based on what the spec says?

15:45:57 [manu]

Shane: The presence of @typeof should trigger a bnode to be created.

15:46:12 [manu]

Ben: Maybe this already happens, maybe our test cases don't test this.

15:47:30 [manu]

Ben: This issue may already be resolved.

15:47:38 [ShaneM]

check http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014-errata/

15:47:53 [manu]

Ben: Manu, you're not against typeof="", right?

15:48:00 [manu]

Manu: Correct, just not a high priority for me.

15:48:20 [manu]

Manu: typeof="[]"

15:48:25 [manu]

Manu: typeof="foobar"?

15:48:41 [manu]

Manu: What does that do? It creates a bnode still?

15:48:47 [manu]

Ben: Yes, except we can't set the type.

15:49:20 [manu]

Ben: We think the processing rules and the errata already say this - it would be worth clarifying step 4 in the processing rules.

15:49:33 [benadida]

PARTIAL CONSENSUS (because we're 3 on the call): @typeof presence already creates bnode, as per spec and errata. Step #4 could use some clarification to prevent confusion.

15:50:06 [manu]

Ben: URIs everywhere - how can we support rel="http://example.org/vocab#term" ?

15:50:17 [manu]

Ben: That's the goal, let's not talk about the mechanism.

15:50:23 [manu]

Manu: I'm fine with that goal.

15:50:35 [manu]

Shane: Fine with the goal, not a high priority for me.

15:50:45 [manu]

Ben: Don't feel very strongly about this, not going to make/break anything.

15:52:13 [manu]

Ben: If we find a good way to do it, then great.

15:52:35 [manu]

Ben: We know some RDFa community members and WHATWG community members care deeply about this.

15:52:37 [benadida]

PARTIAL CONSENSUS: we note that some community members care deeply about this. The three of us are not strongly opposed, but it is not a high priority to resolve.

15:52:51 [manu]

Manu: Fine with that.

15:53:05 [manu]

Shane: Fine.

15:53:30 [manu]

Ben: DOM API - I'm not opposed, unless it's done in a pure RDF way.

15:53:40 [manu]

Ben: I think that would be a strong negative.

15:54:25 [manu]

Manu: The other point to make is that we might want to start with something very specific and let jQuery plugins aggregate RDFa/Microformats/Microdata APIs into an uber data API

15:54:50 [manu]

Shane: We've told the browser folks that we don't need browser support for a very long time.

15:54:57 [manu]

Shane: Now we roll out a DOM API.

15:55:30 [manu]

Shane: We don't need them to implement the API - we might get pushback from the browser manufacturers.

15:55:37 [manu]

Ben: Yes, it is a valid concern.

15:56:13 [manu]

Ben: Most concerned about the interplay between the @vocab discussion and the DOM API support.

15:57:01 [manu]

Ben: We're basically saying that RDFa 1.1 might require browser vendors to retrieve vocabulary documents.

15:57:16 [manu]

Ben: Pain lies in the intersection between @vocab and DOM API.

16:01:24 [manu]

Manu: We can take the JSON approach (as Sam Ruby and Doug Schepers outlined a month ago)... implement in jquery/javascript first... speed it up with native implementations later.

16:01:31 [manu]

Ben: Yes, I do think that may be the right approach.

16:01:48 [manu]

Ben: Direction for DOM API should be a jQuery plugin.

16:02:13 [manu]

Shane: We should use the DOM hasFeature mechanism.

16:02:56 [manu]

Ben: Don't know if Jeni's plugin does this - but it would be nice to trace a triple back to the DOM node element that generated it.

16:03:06 [manu]

Ben: Bi-directional visual data correspondence.

16:03:22 [manu]

Shane: Don't think that Mark's concept does that.

16:03:38 [manu]

Ben: Triple stores have origins - we might be able to hack it to make it an xpath into a document.

16:04:07 [manu]

Shane: Provenence - XPATH expression into a URI using a hash.

16:04:15 [manu]

Shane: Mark's worked on that... Document API

16:05:31 [manu]

Ben: Shane - regarding @vocab - I might be convinced about Mark's approach. Don't know if my approach is taking hold with anybody - I think we need to make life easier for authors, as Manu has been evangelizing for some time.

16:05:47 [manu]

Ben: The big problem is the requirement for dereferencing....

16:06:50 [manu]

Ben: Wondering if the parser should generate some sort of intermediate format?

16:06:58 [manu]

Shane: Isn't the intermediate format the CURIE?

16:07:32 [manu]

Shane: In the @profile proposal, you can define new keywords and remote mappings.

16:07:47 [manu]

Ben: Yes, the remote mappings thing is something I would have an issue with...

16:08:09 [manu]

Ben: A @vocab proposal where the only thing you're doing is adding a source of unprefixed keywords.

16:08:20 [manu]

Ben: The goal of author ease-of-use is to remove the prefixes entirely.

16:08:55 [manu]

Ben: If you're asking the author to understand that there are different vocabularies, I don't think you're making it transparent anymore.

16:09:14 [manu]

Ben: For example, adding foaf:name and dc:title into the same vocabulary - that's not easier.

16:09:55 [manu]

Shane: link rel="vocab" ... would override the words that are not core reserved words.

16:10:02 [manu]

Shane: Is that correct?

16:10:06 [manu]

Ben: yes, more or less.

16:10:37 [manu]

Ben: I'm making the point that you shouldn't pull in prefix definitions... but it would be a reserved words only approach.

16:10:47 [manu]

Ben: Indirection for definition of prefixes seems wrong to me.

16:11:09 [manu]

Shane: Need to think about it.

16:11:25 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

16:11:28 [Zakim]

-Manu

16:11:29 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:11:30 [Zakim]

Attendees were ShaneM, Manu, Ben_Adida

16:11:34 [manu]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:11:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu

16:13:38 [manu]

zakim, bye

16:13:38 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

16:20:06 [manu]

rrsagent, bye

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [1]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-08-39

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ivan to talk with Peter Mika at ISWC2009 about RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [2]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-15-16

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-15-54

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [4]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-18-28

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [5]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-19-02

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu speak with Andy Seaborne about SPARQL.org implementation re: c14n [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [6]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-22-44

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [7]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-23-24

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to kick some butt on mailing list re: test cases [8]

16:20:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-41-27