IRC log of CSS on 2009-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:47:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:47:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:55:22 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:30 [Zakim]
15:55:54 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
15:56:41 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:56 [dsinger]
zakim, mute me
15:56:56 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:58:18 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger
15:58:45 [dsinger]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:58:52 [Zakim]
15:58:57 [Zakim]
dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:59:02 [dsinger]
zakim, mute me
15:59:02 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
15:59:19 [Zakim]
15:59:26 [fantasai]
Zakim, ? is fantasai
15:59:26 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:00:01 [Zakim]
16:00:29 [Zakim]
16:00:35 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:00:35 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:01:36 [glazou]
VoIP dead :(
16:01:47 [Zakim]
16:02:09 [Zakim]
16:02:13 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:02:13 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:02:28 [ChrisL]
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16:03:06 [fantasai]
dbaron, ???
16:04:27 [TabAtkins]
Hey, I have great voip. Your service just sucks.
16:04:32 [Zakim]
16:04:34 [glazou]
sylvaing: bill ? not even,, 18Megabits, free calls to landlines in 100 countries
16:04:45 [dsinger]
dsinger has changed the topic to: conversing silently and semantically
16:04:56 [plinss]
free doesn't help if it doesn't work...
16:05:08 [ChrisL]
yes, but not necessarily a "real phone" in ters of the connection
16:05:13 [glazou]
yeah, that's the 1st time they have a network issue
16:05:18 [glazou]
on voip
16:05:33 [dsinger]
dsinger has changed the topic to: CSS working group
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16:05:57 [Zakim]
16:06:48 [fantasai]
16:06:50 [Zakim]
16:07:01 [fantasai]
16:08:11 [fantasai]
16:09:18 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:09:18 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:10:11 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:10:19 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think this should be done for ARIA
16:10:22 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:10:22 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:10:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think ARIA should remain descriptive
16:10:57 [fantasai]
[discussing :checked pseudo-class and ARIA]
16:11:56 [fantasai]
My answer is that it's out-of-scope for Selectors
16:12:06 [fantasai]
Whether a node is checked is defined by the document language
16:12:13 [fantasai]
whether that's defined by the HTML4 spec
16:12:24 [fantasai]
or HTML5+DOM+SVG+ARIA+something-else
16:13:25 [fantasai]
People seem to agree with this
16:14:30 [fantasai]
Chris: We asked them a question about ::before and ::after, they don't seem to have responded.
16:15:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: so who should respond?
16:15:35 [fantasai]
Daniel: you
16:15:43 [fantasai]
Bert: Make sure they know it is an official response
16:16:01 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai respond to Janina
16:16:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-181 - Respond to Janina [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:16:19 [fantasai]
16:16:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: This was raised against implementors, actually, but filed against Selectors
16:17:14 [Zakim]
16:17:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it's out-of-scope for Selectors, just wanted to check that that's acceptable
16:17:29 [CesarAcebal]
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16:18:01 [fantasai]
Tab: Seems fine to me
16:18:03 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:18:03 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:18:14 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:18:14 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:18:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm not sure how reasonable Anne's suggestion will be for our UA style sheet, but that's another story
16:18:48 [fantasai]
Peter: No objections to treating as out-of-scope
16:19:05 [fantasai]
Issue 1.
16:19:05 [fantasai]
Summary: Remove suggestion to use \: to match namespaced XML in down-level UAs
16:19:05 [fantasai]
From: Krzysztof Maczynski
16:19:05 [fantasai]
16:19:05 [fantasai]
16:19:08 [fantasai]
16:19:23 [dsinger]
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16:19:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: Anne suggested removing the entire section. I don't mind
16:20:16 [fantasai]
Peter: I agree as well, and I original wrote the section
16:20:39 [fantasai]
Peter: It was mainly an argument to Microsoft 10 years ago explaining why escaped colons was a bad way to handle it and that we needed a Namespaces spec
16:20:47 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai remove Chapter 11
16:20:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-182 - Remove Chapter 11 [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:21:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: THat leaves 3 more issues, all on defining things defined in 2.1 but not here
16:22:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't have any concrete proposals here
16:22:34 [fantasai]
Bert: Point to CSS2.1 and HTML and XML specs
16:22:37 [ChrisL]
q+ to ask a point of clarification about :indeterminate pseudo-class
16:23:38 [Zakim]
16:23:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: For ::first-line (issue 10), I can split out a lot of the CSS-specific stuff, but I can't figure out a general way to explain that we're referring to the first line of a block
16:23:51 [Zakim]
16:23:58 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:23:58 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:25:55 [ChrisL]
say the host language defines it
16:26:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'll try to fix that and post my edits to www-style for review
16:26:57 [fantasai]
Chris: For Issue 6, refer to XML for the first 3 and to the DOM spec for DOM
16:27:40 [fantasai]
Chris: e.g. DOM3 Core
16:27:55 [fantasai]
Chris: I have a question about :indeterminate
16:28:20 [fantasai]
Chris: The spec has a note about :indeterminate, no normative text, but we have a test in the test suite
16:28:38 [fantasai]
Chris: We should either define :indeterminate, or drop the test
16:28:46 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:28:46 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:28:47 [fantasai]
and the section
16:28:57 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:28:57 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:29:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: Isn't this the result of agreeing to drop it in the past and not having changed the test suite to match?
16:29:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't know, I wasn't editing the spec at the time. Daniel?
16:29:44 [plinss]
ack ChrisL
16:29:44 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you wanted to ask a point of clarification about :indeterminate pseudo-class
16:29:54 [fantasai]
Daniel: :indeterminate was not in the original Selectors spec, it was added by Tantek
16:30:15 [fantasai]
Chris: I think the tests mostly fail, so I suggest dropping those tests
16:30:36 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai drop :indeterminate from tests
16:30:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-183 - Drop :indeterminate from tests [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:30:49 [fantasai]
Chris: Why aren't references split into normative and informative?
16:31:26 [fantasai]
fantasai has no clue
16:32:29 [fantasai]
fantsai: I can make that split
16:32:40 [fantasai]
16:34:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'll have to reword the PCDATA/etc. to not require normative references to HTML/XML
16:34:44 [fantasai]
16:35:08 [fantasai]
Steve: Is there a section that says what things are language-specific?
16:35:17 [fantasai]
Chris quotes section 13 - Conformance
16:35:59 [fantasai]
Peter: are all concerns answered?
16:36:23 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:36:23 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:36:44 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:36:44 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:36:51 [fantasai]
Chris: So we want to move to CR, how long should it be in CR/ what are status of implementations?
16:36:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: Why can't we move to PR?
16:37:02 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:37:02 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:37:07 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:37:07 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:37:14 [fantasai]
dbaron: I thought we had already met our CR exit criteria
16:37:20 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:37:20 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:37:37 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:37:37 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:38:01 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:38:01 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:38:07 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:38:07 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:38:15 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:38:15 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:38:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: I thought we already had implementation reports
16:38:29 [fantasai]
fantasai can't find them
16:39:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we don't have implementation reports in the next 2 weeks then I think we should move to CR
16:39:15 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:39:15 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:40:08 [fantasai]
Bert has links to the implementation reports
16:40:30 [dbaron]
16:40:45 [Bert]
FF 1.5:
16:40:56 [Bert]
Opera 9.5
16:41:07 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:41:07 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:41:10 [Bert]
Konq 3.5
16:41:29 [fantasai]
16:41:34 [Bert]
Amaya 9.55
16:41:34 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:41:34 [Zakim]
David_Baron was not muted, dbaron
16:41:34 [fantasai]
16:41:37 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:41:37 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
16:41:40 [fantasai]
which is linked from the test suite
16:41:57 [fantasai]
I haven't dropped the :indeterminate tests yet
16:42:07 [fantasai]
I'll do so soon
16:42:21 [fantasai]
Chris: The implementation report template is awkward, you have to record the same test multiple places
16:43:43 [fantasai]
We will discuss the transition at TPAC
16:43:51 [fantasai]
Peter: We'll have implementation reports by then hopefully?
16:44:37 [fantasai]
Chris is working on an Opera one
16:44:43 [fantasai]
dbaron is working on Mozilla (?)
16:44:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: Can we get one for WebKit?
16:45:43 [fantasai]
Test Suite:
16:46:40 [fantasai]
Peter: Media Queries syntax from Yves
16:46:46 [plinss]
16:47:41 [fantasai]
Bert: First issue was about using functional syntax for media queries, not much chance for that
16:47:58 [fantasai]
Bert: Second issue was to include the parentheses in the CSS2.1 Appendix G grammar
16:48:02 [dbaron]
fantasai, the current implementation report template has one link to the 20090603 test suite, but the individual test links are all to the 20060307 test suit (note year!)
16:48:06 [fantasai]
Bert: Because that's what he uses to parse
16:48:10 [dbaron]
fantasai, I'm going to assume that's wrong and search-replace the whole thing before running it
16:48:29 [fantasai]
dbaron, yeah, I guess I have to fix that
16:48:44 [fantasai]
Bert: I'm not in favor. It's not wrong to add it, but it's not necessary
16:49:16 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:49:16 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:49:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: If Yves needs it for his implementation, then he can add it. We don't need it for the spec, so we dont' need to edit the spec
16:49:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: The Appendix G grammar is only a description of what's in CSS2.1, it's not a guide for implementations
16:49:45 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
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David_Baron should now be muted
16:50:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's sometimes useful where the spec fails to give a grammar elsewhere, but we should really try to eliminate those
16:50:55 [fantasai]
Bert describes what Media Queries does to the grammar
16:50:59 [fantasai]
Bert: I'm happy to do nothing here
16:51:22 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Closed no change
16:52:05 [plinss]
Topic: @page and the CSSOM
16:52:07 [plinss]
16:52:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: I have no idea, but the @page rule with its nesting structure can't be changed at this point
16:52:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: Also we have nesting for @media...
16:53:53 [fantasai]
16:54:21 [fantasai]
Chris: I'm concerned that we would replace the explosion of properties with the explosion of pseudo-elements
16:54:41 [fantasai]
Tab: There was some discussion of this with Brad and roc
16:54:49 [fantasai]
Tab: We don't want the combinatorial explosion
16:55:00 [fantasai]
Tab: But other ways of naively doing it break the CSS model for values
16:55:12 [fantasai]
Daniel: Microsoft introduced filters long long ago
16:55:33 [fantasai]
Daniel: It would be cool to provide a replacement for this proprietary feature
16:55:38 [dbaron]
fantasai, I'm going to prepare a revised implementreportTEMPLATE.html file
16:56:26 [fantasai]
Chris: SVG filters is being split out into a separate file, to allow other specs to incorporate them
16:57:28 [fantasai]
16:57:42 [fantasai]
Daniel: After transitions, animations, and transforms filters will be the next feature requested by web designers
16:58:05 [fantasai]
Tab: So hash out more of this on the list? I don't think this is something we can resolve on the call
16:58:35 [fantasai]
Tab: It's a big issue. No matter what we do, it will be something large and complicated to work out
16:58:47 [fantasai]
Peter: Any benefit to working F2F at TPAC?
16:58:59 [fantasai]
Daniel: If we follow Chris's suggestion, it would be something to discuss with SVG
16:59:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: SVG won't be meeting at TPAC
16:59:24 [fantasai]
Chris: Some members will be present, but not the group
16:59:45 [fantasai]
Chris: Erik would be the best person to talk to, since he's editor for Filters spec
17:00:00 [fantasai]
Deferred to TPAC and beyond
17:00:57 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:00:59 [Zakim]
17:01:01 [Zakim]
17:01:02 [Zakim]
17:01:02 [Zakim]
17:01:03 [Zakim]
17:01:03 [Zakim]
17:01:05 [Zakim]
17:01:06 [Zakim]
17:01:07 [Zakim]
17:01:12 [Zakim]
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:01:14 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger, plinss, fantasai, TabAtkins, sylvaing, glazou, David_Baron, Bert, ChrisL, SteveZ, CesarAcebal
17:01:34 [fantasai]
dbaron, cool, can you check that into a reports/ subdirectory of and I'll copy to
17:02:07 [glazou]
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17:06:18 [dbaron]
fantasai, I sent it to
17:06:28 [dbaron]
fantasai, so you can check it in whereever else...
17:06:45 [fantasai]
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17:21:03 [dbaron]
fantasai, actually, I found a few more mistakes
17:21:11 [dbaron]
fantasai, a few tests that have been marked HTML-only, I think
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17:55:12 [bradk_]
What'd I miss?
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18:03:27 [dbaron]
fantasai, maybe the reports should just go in CSS/selectors3-test-suite on ?
18:03:43 [dbaron]
just like we did for the css3-color test suite reports?
18:03:43 [sylvaing]
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18:04:20 [dbaron]
fantasai, or is that no longer a current copy of the test suite?
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20:32:54 [fantasai]
dbaron: Arron and I shifted all the test stuff to
20:33:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: Much less confusion and version history munging that way
20:33:16 [dbaron]
fantasai, Anything that's no longer the main copy should be deleted
20:33:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: already done
20:33:29 [dbaron]
fantasai, otherwise I'll just keep editing whatever's on
20:33:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: should be empty
20:34:03 [dbaron]
ah, yeah, mostly
20:34:13 [fantasai]
dbaron: Couldn't delete the directories
20:34:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: but they're all empty
20:34:27 [dbaron]
fantasai, if directories are empty they go away if you give cvs the right option
20:34:32 [dbaron]
fantasai, you should never cvs remove a directory
20:34:48 [dbaron]
fantasai, your ~/.cvsrc should have:
20:34:51 [dbaron]
checkout -P
20:34:52 [dbaron]
update -P
20:35:14 [fantasai]
20:35:29 [dbaron]
so I should make a 'reports' subdir of approved/selectors3/ ?
20:35:33 [fantasai]
20:35:49 [fantasai]
feel free to make any edits you feel are necessary there
20:36:05 [dbaron]
boy, every time I update svn, it seems like massive chunks of files I already have get moved somewhere else
20:36:06 [fantasai]
and I'll remove the :indeterminate tests and republish the test suite on Friday
20:36:15 [fantasai]
20:36:16 [fantasai]
20:36:20 [fantasai]
we reorganized the repository
20:36:23 [fantasai]
a few weeks ago
20:36:42 [fantasai]
I think we'll be staying with this structure for awhile
20:36:57 [fantasai]
it's easier for contributors
20:39:26 [dbaron]
fantasai, what's my username for
20:40:07 [dbaron]
fantasai, and do I need to use a URL beginning with something other than http: to commit?
20:40:44 [dbaron]
(I think I may have had my client configured properly for the previous location of the repository, but I deleted that tree...)
20:42:22 [fantasai]
dbaron, and no
20:42:33 [dbaron]
fantasai, "and no"?
20:42:44 [fantasai]
https should be fine
20:43:05 [dbaron]
fantasai, what's my username?
20:43:15 [fantasai]
20:43:29 [dbaron]
and how do I authenticate?
20:43:43 [fantasai]
you should have the password in your inbox
20:43:59 [fantasai]
I can send it to you again if you can't find it
20:44:04 [fantasai]
but all the info should be in that email
20:44:19 [dbaron]
do I need to check the whole tree out again if I currently have it from http: rather than https: ?
20:44:32 [fantasai]
I don't know enough about SVN to answer that
20:44:53 [dbaron]
fantasai, what year was this email sent in?
20:45:05 [dbaron]
fantasai, and how might I search for it?
20:46:29 [dbaron]
https: doesn't seem to work
20:47:16 [dbaron]
ok, I found the password
20:47:20 [dbaron]
still don't know how to use https:
20:47:28 [dbaron]
email was:
20:47:31 [dbaron]
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:11:28 -0700
20:48:25 [dbaron]
doesn't look like that server responds to https:, at least not on the normal port
20:48:51 [fantasai]
hm, maybe it's just http then
20:49:33 [fantasai]
since that's what I sent, then that's probably what you need to log in
20:50:44 [dbaron]
fantasai, what do you see when you type "svn info" in your checkout of that repository?
20:50:51 [dbaron]
fantasai, http: or something else?
20:51:15 [fantasai]
20:51:24 [dbaron]
nice to know this is completely insecure...
20:51:41 [fantasai]
plinss: ping
20:58:47 [dbaron]
fantasai, ok, reports checked in
20:59:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: cool, thanks
21:01:08 [fantasai]
dbaron: btw, I wanted to get hixie's tests checked in this week
21:01:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: but he told me you were in charge of that, or something
21:01:45 [fantasai]
21:01:58 [fantasai]
dbaron: So I wanted to know what I should do.
21:01:58 [dbaron]
he wanted me to be, but I'm not
21:02:18 [fantasai]
dbaron: so it's ok if I just check them in?
21:02:24 [dbaron]
if he says it is, yes
21:02:26 [dbaron]
which I thought he did
21:02:29 [fantasai]
21:02:31 [fantasai]
I'll do that then
21:02:32 [fantasai]
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