IRC log of aapi on 2009-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:12 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/20-aapi-irc

14:00:28 [Zakim]

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14:00:41 [Andi]

zakim, this will be aapi

14:00:41 [Zakim]

ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started

14:00:52 [Andi]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:01:04 [Andi]

Scribe: Andi

14:04:55 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly

14:06:15 [davidb]

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+[Mozilla]

14:07:10 [davidb]

Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter

14:07:10 [Zakim]

+David_Bolter; got it

14:07:30 [Stevef]

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14:08:03 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=203

14:08:32 [cyns]

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14:08:38 [cyns]

can you put it in again

14:10:07 [Andi]

topic: comment 203

14:10:28 [MichaelC]

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14:11:17 [Andi]

Most AT uses the DOM, some AT uses the accessibility API

14:11:17 [Andi]

Desktop applications remove the children. User agents need to behave the same way.

14:12:57 [Stevef]

voiceover uses accessibility API exclusively (this came from maciej), no DOM access

14:13:00 [Andi]

CS: image with alt="", treat it as graphic with emptry string as name

14:13:53 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general

14:14:19 [Stevef]

Andi: OK, thanks

14:16:34 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

14:17:07 [Andi]

DB: in FF, if table with role presentation, don't expose unless focusable, has onclick handler, has another role, etc.

14:17:24 [Stevef]

i think structural descendents should be removed example <table role="presentation"> should remove child table elements from the heirarchy, otherwise it will have to be applied to every element in the table

14:17:46 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=203

14:18:05 [davidb]

right Stevef

14:18:06 [Tim]

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14:18:20 [davidb]

and they are removed unless further overriden with another aria role

14:18:25 [davidb]

or if they are focusable

14:18:30 [davidb]

then we keep them

14:18:32 [Stevef]

yes

14:19:02 [Andi]

CS: the text will remain but the roles and structure of the children will not be exposed.

14:21:00 [Stevef]

what about other elements within table cells such as <p> or <hx>

14:21:37 [Stevef]

it would be better not to remove these, but is there a relaible way to romve on table related elements for example?

14:21:50 [Andi]

CS: what happens if there is a labelledby?

14:22:35 [Andi]

CS: example: progress bar that is a table

14:22:51 [Andi]

CS: one of children is text

14:23:02 [Andi]

CS: if parent uses labelledby that points to the child, does this work?

14:23:05 [Andi]

CS: it should

14:23:29 [Stevef]

CS: agree

14:23:40 [Andi]

DB: role=presentation - just talking about the element that has that role

14:24:09 [Andi]

DB: if <div> with role=presentation, doesn't mean nested <div>s are presenational

14:24:19 [Andi]

DB: tables are special

14:24:58 [Andi]

CS: if remove table, having cells sitting there without table doesn't make sense

14:25:06 [Andi]

TB: if leave the children, there wouldn't be any context

14:26:33 [Stevef]

suggest tables and lists should be special cases

14:28:42 [Andi]

CS: Stevef: maybe

14:28:54 [Andi]

CS: maybe the only special cases in HTML but there may be other special cases in other languages

14:29:02 [Andi]

TB: what about mathml?

14:29:20 [Andi]

CS: seems like lists and tables are places where the children without the parent are invalid

14:30:13 [Andi]

DB: structural elements that have related structural child elements, the child elements inherit role=presentation

14:30:32 [Andi]

CS: example, table is presentational, so are cells

14:30:47 [Andi]

DB: unless overridden by explicit roles in the children

14:31:30 [davidb]

DB: or focusable

14:32:19 [Andi]

descendents that are text content are not removed from the accessible tree

14:32:52 [davidb]

Stevef, when creating the accessible tree, FF skips over table structure if within a table role="presentation", but includes everything else otherwise. (with exceptions)

14:33:04 [AndiSnow]

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14:33:07 [AndiSnow]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general

14:33:33 [AndiSnow]

scribe: AndiSnow

14:33:45 [AndiSnow]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general

14:33:45 [Stevef]

davidbL cool!

14:34:33 [Stevef]

CS: yes

14:35:29 [AndiSnow]

topic: comment 210 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=210

14:37:35 [AndiSnow]

DB: if click handler is on ancestor but the child is what gets clicked on, how do you determine that you need to expose the child?

14:37:47 [AndiSnow]

CS: pattern I was talking about, click handler on document

14:37:54 [AndiSnow]

CS: if element is button, call function

14:38:07 [AndiSnow]

DB: or certain ID, class, etc. - can get pretty hairy

14:38:17 [AndiSnow]

DB: can't cover that case

14:38:32 [AndiSnow]

CS: probably need a WCAG technique or authoring practice technique or both

14:39:41 [AndiSnow]

CS: shouldn't put the click handler on the ancestor

14:39:41 [AndiSnow]

DB: talk about in aria-activedescendent as well

14:39:46 [Andi]

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14:40:44 [Andi]

scribe: Andi

14:40:44 [Andi]

CS: bug - need WCAG and/or ARIA techniques

14:40:48 [Andi]

assign to Steve

14:41:17 [Andi]

CS: Gez would be another option

14:42:50 [Andi]

CS: if have click handler that's only on the ancestor, shouldn't be using inherited presentation

14:43:03 [Andi]

DB: if put ARIA role on object that is a button, handler can be on the button or the parent, don't care

14:43:28 [Andi]

DB: but if there is a click handler on a parent, and there is no aria role on the child, that's a problem

14:44:04 [Andi]

CS: a click handler on an element that doesn't have either a native interactive role or an ARIA role that makes it interactive is an error?

14:44:08 [Andi]

DB: not sure about that

14:45:07 [Andi]

CS: the thing the user is supposed to be clicking on either needs to be a button or have a role that makes it interactive

14:45:39 [Andi]

CS: if have click handler on parent that contains things users can click on but they don't have interactive roles, then it's an error

14:45:56 [Andi]

DB: also wondering about tabindex

14:47:03 [Andi]

DB: if element has tabindex="-1", wouldn't we expose that?

14:47:11 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

14:47:15 [Andi]

Section 3.7 Actions, add "the element is focusable"

14:48:26 [Stevef]

tahnsk andi...

14:49:44 [Stevef]

if somebody asks gez to join PF (like janina) he will and he will help

14:50:36 [davidb]

Stevef, \o/

14:50:41 [Andi]

topic: Role Mapping http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=210

14:50:52 [Andi]

starting with "main"

14:51:36 [Stevef]

Andi: is the above the correct link?

14:51:54 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role

14:52:07 [Andi]

main is a landmark role

14:52:21 [Andi]

use AriaRole for UIA and object attributes for IA2 and ATK

14:53:49 [Andi]

marquee

14:54:21 [Andi]

DB: should we use ROLE_SYSTEM_ANIMATION for MSAA? waiting for decision to implement in FF

14:54:38 [Andi]

David to send e-mail to Cynthia about that

14:56:00 [davidb]

DB: sent

14:56:07 [Stevef]

note: AXGroup, AXSubrole: "AXLandmarkMain", AXRoleDescription: "main" on Mac

14:56:13 [Andi]

menu: okay

14:56:19 [Andi]

menubar: okay

14:56:46 [Stevef]

latest Mac tests here : http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/aria-tests/ARIA-Safari-RoleTests280909.html

14:57:28 [Andi]

option

14:57:48 [Andi]

CS: wouldn't be surprised if Apple is mapping "select" to menu

14:58:16 [Andi]

CS: Apple: "select" with multiples is a listbox, "select" without multiples is a menu

14:59:09 [Andi]

bug - CS - synchronize ARIA mapping of options with HTML 5 mapping of options, specifically how it relates to HTML 5 commands

14:59:52 [Andi]

DB: should "timer" map to ROLE_SYSTEM_CLOCK? send e-mail to CS

15:00:23 [Andi]

DB: FF has history of breaking rules wrt MSAA, would like to keep doing that for backward compatibility

15:00:32 [Andi]

CS: tools flag as error

15:00:47 [Andi]

DB: only way to give access when there was nothing but MSAA

15:01:02 [Andi]

DB to send CS an e-mail, explain what doing, why important, etc.

15:01:16 [Zakim]

-David_Bolter

15:01:18 [Zakim]

-Andi_Snow_Weaver

15:01:18 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Tim_Boland

15:01:23 [Andi]

zakim, bye

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15:01:34 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minuts

15:01:34 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', Andi. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:01:41 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:01:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/20-aapi-minutes.html Andi