19:46:40 RRSAgent has joined #au 19:46:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-irc 19:46:47 Zakim, this will be AUWG 19:46:47 ok, Jan; I see WAI_AUWG()3:00PM scheduled to start 46 minutes ago 19:46:54 Meeting: WAI AU 19:47:18 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0010.html 19:47:26 Chair: Jan Richards 19:48:28 Regrets: Greg Pisocky, Tim Boland (joining late), Jutta Treviranus (joining late) 19:56:58 jeanne has joined #au 19:59:11 zakim, code? 19:59:11 the conference code is 2894 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 19:59:19 WAI_AUWG()3:00PM has now started 19:59:25 +Jeanne 20:00:35 zakim, code? 20:00:35 the conference code is 2894 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan 20:00:46 rrsagent, make minutes 20:00:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-minutes.html jeanne 20:00:57 +??P1 20:01:22 zakim, ??P1 is really Jan 20:01:22 +Jan; got it 20:02:48 + +0776416aaaa 20:03:08 zakim, aaaa is really AnnM 20:03:08 +AnnM; got it 20:03:24 trackbot, start meeting 20:03:26 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:03:28 Zakim, this will be AUWG 20:03:28 ok, trackbot, I see WAI_AUWG()3:00PM already started 20:03:29 Meeting: Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 20:03:29 Date: 19 October 2009 20:04:03 + +1.561.582.aabb 20:04:20 zakim, aabb is really SuannN 20:04:20 +SuannN; got it 20:05:37 Sueann has joined #au 20:05:55 zakim, who is here? 20:05:55 On the phone I see Jeanne, Jan, AnnM, SuannN 20:05:56 On IRC I see Sueann, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, Jan, trackbot 20:05:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0010.html 20:06:21 Topic: B.2.1.1 Decision Support 20:06:31 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0010.html 20:06:45 present+ Jeanne, Jan, AnnM, SuannN 20:07:39 Topic: Text for proposed text for Understanding ATAG 2.0 B.2.1.1 20:07:58 RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal from the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35520/20091008/ 20:08:20 Topic: Agree to publish ATAG and Understanding Document 20:08:37 RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal from the survey question 2 from October 12 survey 20:08:53 Topic: name change for Techniques document 20:09:19 JS: Shawn does a lot of travelling and communicating for W3C 20:09:36 JS: She gets lots of push-back on the name UUnderstanding WCAG" 20:09:55 JS: Shawn has proposed "Implementing ATAG 2.0" 20:10:29 JS: Makes it seem forward looking and action-oriented 20:10:42 AM: Great idea 20:11:02 SN: Sounds reasonable -positions it well 20:11:52 JR: On the call there was no objection 20:14:10 Action JR: To check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Jutta, Greg, Tim, etc. 20:14:10 Created ACTION-191 - Check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Jutta, Greg, Tim, etc. [on Jan Richards - due 2009-10-26]. 20:14:21 Action JS: To check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Judy 20:14:21 Created ACTION-192 - Check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Judy [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-10-26]. 20:14:42 Topic: Agree to publish ATAG and Understanding Document 20:14:56 +??P4 20:15:13 zakim, ??P4 is really Jutta 20:15:13 +Jutta; got it 20:16:29 JT: OK with "Implementing ATAG 2.0" 20:20:51 JS: Do we want to include Sueann's email with Jan's edits? 20:22:26 JR: We still have a number of comments from Tim that we haven't reviewed. But these are mostly editorial comments. 20:22:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0012.html 20:23:16 JS: I would like to get this working draft be as close as possible to Last Call. Ideally, we should be able to publish Last Call right after the comment period closes, depending on how many comments we get. 20:23:40 Original: A.3.1.1 Keyboard: All functionality of the authoring tool is operable through a keyboard interface without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the author's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A) 20:23:49 Topic: SueAnn comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0012.html 20:24:24 s/: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0012.html/: 20:26:00 Propose: "A.3.1.1 Keyboard: All functionality of the authoring tool is operable 20:26:02 through a keyboard interface and does not require specific timings for 20:26:04 individual keystrokes. An exception to keyboard operability is allowed 20:26:05 where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of 20:26:07 the author's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)" 20:26:52 JR: SN was original commenter - does it make sense? 20:27:39 SN: Would this preclude...you can use a keyboard to move focus...across a drwaing area. 20:28:02 WCAG's explanation: "The phrase "except where the underlying function requires input that 20:28:04 depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints" 20:28:06 is included to separate those things that cannot reasonably be 20:28:08 controlled from a keyboard. Most actions carried out by a pointing 20:28:10 device can also be done from the keyboard (for example, clicking, 20:28:11 selecting, moving, sizing). However, there is a small class of input 20:28:13 that is done with a pointing device that cannot be done from the 20:28:14 keyboard in any known fashion without requiring an inordinate number of 20:28:16 keystrokes. Free hand drawing, watercolor painting, and flying a 20:28:18 helicopter through an obstacle course are all examples of functions that 20:28:20 require path dependent input. Drawing straight lines, regular geometric 20:28:22 shapes, re-sizing windows and dragging objects to a location (when the 20:28:23 path to that location is not relevant) do not require path dependent 20:28:25 input. " 20:29:57 ATAG 2.0: Intent of Success Criterion A.3.1.1: 20:29:59 The intent of this success criterion is to ensure that, wherever possible, authoring tools can be operated through a keyboard or keyboard interface (so that an alternate keyboard can be used). Examples of "specific timings for individual keystrokes" include situations where authors would be required to repeat or execute multiple keystrokes within a short period of time or where a key must be... 20:30:00 ...held down for an extended period before the keystroke is registered. The phrase "except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the author's movement and not just the endpoints" is included to exclude those tasks that cannot reasonably be controlled from a keyboard (e.g., free hand drawing, watercolor painting). 20:32:20 Drawing straight lines, regular geometric shapes, re-sizing windows and dragging objects to a location (when the path to that location is not relevant) do not require path dependent input. 20:33:27 Note 2: This does not forbid and should not discourage providing mouse input or other input methods in addition to keyboard operation. 20:33:52 AM: I'm concerned that people who are doing ajax apps will take that as an excuse not to make their application keyboard accessible. 20:33:57 his does not prohibit or discourage providing mouse input or 20:33:59 > other input methods in addition to keyboard operation. 20:35:13 JT: Why do we have to make any exception? If you can't use a mouse, you aren't going to be able to do the things. 20:35:16 +Tim_Boland 20:35:55 JR: Looking at the example of a drawing program like Photoshop, particularly where there are devices that measure the pressure and speed of hte movement. 20:37:20 ... like the watercolor brush on a canvas. 20:40:05 JT: I'm not clear why we need an exception-- the keyboard control could be at a pixel level, but that is better than nothing. 20:41:16 JR: But this is a single A requirement, and it would exclude any pixel drawing program will be prevented from ATAG lvl A, even if they matched everything else. 20:42:14 "A.3.1.1 Keyboard: All functionality of the authoring tool is operable 20:42:16 through a keyboard interface and does not require specific timings for 20:42:17 individual keystrokes. An exception to keyboard operability is allowed 20:42:19 where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of 20:42:20 the author's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)" 20:42:37 TB: Could we make the exception AAA? We could keep the exception in the SC at lvl A, and we could have an SC with no exception at AAA. 20:44:25 JT: Could we except gestures? 20:46:25 Drawing straight lines, regular geometric shapes, re-sizing windows and dragging objects to a location (when the path to that location is not relevant) do not require path dependent input. 20:47:29 JR: These exceptions are all drawing or painting programs. 20:49:51 TB: We can put it in and see what people say about it. 20:51:50 JT: Having an A and a AAA would be a good compromise. 20:52:03 JR: AA or AAA? 20:52:12 Group consensus, AAA 20:53:57 Resolution: (1) We use JR's rewording responding SN (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2009OctDec/0012.html) ; (2) add the line "Drawing straight lines, regular geometric shapes, re-sizing windows and dragging objects to a location (when the path to that location is not relevant) do not require path dependent input" to the intent; (3) we are going to add A.3.1.X Keyboard... 20:53:59 ...(Enhanced) as AAA without the exception 20:56:15 -Tim_Boland 20:56:17 -AnnM 20:56:17 -SuannN 20:56:19 -Jan 20:56:21 -Jutta 20:56:23 -Jeanne 20:56:23 WAI_AUWG()3:00PM has ended 20:56:24 Attendees were Jeanne, Jan, +0776416aaaa, AnnM, +1.561.582.aabb, SuannN, Jutta, Tim_Boland 20:56:32 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:56:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-minutes.html Jan 20:56:38 RRSAgent, set logs public 20:56:45 Zakim, bye 20:56:45 Zakim has left #au 20:56:51 RRSAgent, bye 20:56:51 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-actions.rdf : 20:56:51 ACTION: JR to To check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Jutta, Greg, Tim, etc. [1] 20:56:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-irc#T20-14-10 20:56:51 ACTION: JS to To check on "Implementing ATAG 2.0" with Judy [2] 20:56:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/19-au-irc#T20-14-21