16:48:56 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:48:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-irc 16:48:58 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:48:58 Zakim has joined #ua 16:49:00 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:49:00 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 16:49:01 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:49:01 Date: 01 October 2009 16:49:23 rrsagent, make minutes 16:49:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-minutes.html kford 16:49:36 Greg has joined #ua 16:49:50 regrets:Jim, Mark,Kim,David 16:50:02 Chair:Jim_Allan 16:58:23 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 16:58:24 Agenda+ Meeting survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090930/ 16:58:26 Agenda+ Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ 16:58:27 Agenda+ Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility. 16:58:29 Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list 16:58:30 Agenda+ Think about techniques in preparation for F2F. 16:58:32 - UAAG10 Techniques 16:58:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-UAAG10-TECHS-20021217/ 16:58:35 - ATAG Techniques 16:58:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090814/#gl-Web-based-accessi 16:58:38 ble 16:58:39 - WCAG20 Techniques http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ 16:58:49 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:58:56 +[Microsoft] 16:59:20 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:59:20 +kford; got it 17:00:25 sharper has joined #ua 17:02:12 Jan has joined #ua 17:02:20 zakim, code? 17:02:20 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan 17:02:59 +??P4 17:03:11 zakim, ??P4 is really Jan 17:03:11 +Jan; got it 17:03:30 +Jeanne 17:03:33 jeanne has joined #ua 17:04:08 +??P9 17:04:11 zakim, ??P9 is sharper 17:04:11 +sharper; got it 17:04:35 + +1.425.895.aaaa 17:05:07 zakim, aaaa is really Greg 17:05:07 +Greg; got it 17:05:40 Present:Kelly, Gregg, Jan, Simon, Jeanne 17:06:24 regrets+Henny 17:08:31 zakim, take up item 1 17:08:31 agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from kford] 17:08:52 zakim, close item 1 17:08:52 agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed 17:08:53 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:08:54 2. Meeting survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090930/ [from kford] 17:09:07 zakim, take up item 2 17:09:07 agendum 2. "Meeting survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090930/" taken up [from kford] 17:09:29 We'll discuss the first item, "proposal for adding test conditions to the Definition of User Agent". 17:10:52 Kim voted accept, Kelly was neutral, Jan had one suggested change, and Greg had three questions. 17:11:21 If XML is stored as a text file, read by a text editor and rendered as text for the user, would that trigger part 1 because it is "using…a w3c specified technology" (XML)? 17:13:07 Simon says it should be limited to when the w3c technology is used to present or render content. 17:15:23 Greg and Simon discussing issue. 17:16:14 Simon: Javascript isn't a W3C technology. 17:16:34 Simon: If the user interface is generated using HTML that's fine. 17:17:11 q+ 17:19:46 ack Jan 17:20:12 JR: THinks saying W3C tech is not necessary - since what about Flash etc 17:25:53 Greg suggests that the older wording, although longer, was easier for him to understand. Simon replied perhaps we should keep 1 and 2 from the previous version and replace 3 with the two new lines. 17:26:26 Simon noted that in a previous conference call people seemed to find the older, original proposal more confusing, leading him to create the new proposed wording. 17:28:08 1) If the user interface is generated by the interpretation of either 17:28:08 a procedural or declaritive language; and 17:28:08 2) If this interpretation is by a Primary User Agent, User Agent 17:28:09 Extension or Plug-In; and 17:28:20 3) If the generated interface, intentionally or unintentionally, hides its interaction from the technology used to generate it. 17:29:23 Greg says, as per my written comment, that I find the term "technology used to generate" much more ambiguous than the earlier terminology of "the primary user agent, user agent extension or plug-in". 17:34:33 Now it seems that from my mail: 17:34:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0082.html 17:34:34 It is possible to capture keystrokes and not pass them on AND 17:34:34 make changes to the DOM without forcing a DOMMutationEvent. 17:34:34 I now want to get this sorted so I can move on to my other 2 17:34:34 (dependant) action items. So I'd like to make another proposal for 17:34:36 part 3, thus: 17:36:21 Discussion continues. 17:41:07 Greg: Revisitng comments from a 9/3 meeting around this. 17:41:57 On the 9/3 conference call we disucssed the possibility of using more general guidance for purchasing agencies as to what would need to comply. 17:43:26 Simon says we keep revisiting this through the history of the project, people questioning what would be a UA. He finds it's difficult to word SC without knowing what components would need to comply with them. 17:46:50 scribe: Jan 17:47:22 SH: Let's take eg web app created in Javascript 17:47:30 SH: Going to create interface using JS 17:47:52 SH: Or they have created interface in HTML but program logic and screen updates using JS 17:48:31 SH: I was trying to say if they capture inpout and don't pass it on to the rendering...just use internally 17:49:03 SH: Or they decide they are not going to put things into the DOM.... 17:49:28 SH: Or they decide they will remove DOM event mutation listeners... 17:49:39 SH: Will cause updates of screen but not DOM...so 17:49:52 SH: Assitive techs won't know there are changes 17:50:20 SH: So...if they are doing this...they are pretending to be a user agent...so they need to conform to our guidelines. 17:50:57 SH: They are a user agent that needs to communicate independently with ATs 17:51:51 SH: But if they are passing things along properly to the accessibility APIs and DOM they are actually web content and only WCAG would apply 17:52:25 KF: New recent release - Chrome plugin that runs inside IE.... 17:52:43 KF: Like Chrome browser inside IE frame 17:53:03 SH:L Not covered by part 3...but is covered by part 2... 17:53:23 SH: which is UA extension or UA plugin... 17:53:37 SH: And should conform 17:53:50 SH: So that example should conform 17:54:23 SH: But what I'm tryoing to get to with Part 3...web app not passing info must conform too 17:54:37 JS: What may help is an an example 17:54:48 SH: OK give me an example 17:55:11 SH: Chrome plugin example already done 17:55:22 JS: Want example to be vendor neutral 17:55:51 SH: e.g. Silverlight, Adobe Air 17:56:08 SH: Both fall into the extensions/plugin category 17:56:19 GL: Are there things we want to exclude? 17:56:38 SH: I've tried to think of all the possibilities 17:56:59 KF: So we are trying to think of something that wouldn't 17:57:23 GL: Right - so e.g., text editor used to edit HTML would not be a user agent 17:58:23 SH: first thing...is a stand alone app 17:58:52 Sh: But doesn't interprt technology 17:59:11 GL: Highlighting syntax? 17:59:16 SH: That's a diff thing 17:59:36 SH: THen isn't a extension or plugin 18:00:29 SH: Then the last part is the hiding of input/output 18:00:34 q+ 18:01:24 GL: OK so take Adobe Acrobat reader plugin 18:01:33 GL: It's Part 2 18:02:37 scribe: jeanne 18:02:39 SH: If new PDF window it's outside of UAAG if it's in viewport its coverd 18:03:31 JR: That example, practically, if IE was making a conformance claim, they would not include pdf, it would be up to Adobe to make a conformance claim for pdf. 18:04:51 JR: If we take the example of the text editor, take an authoring tool like Dreamweaver. The difference between user Agents and Authoring Tools is rather arbitrary for WAI to organize the documents. We should have a note that refers people to the authoring tool guidelines. 18:05:21 kford has joined #ua 18:05:54 rrsagent, make minutes 18:05:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-minutes.html kford 18:07:19 JR: If they were producing HTML, they would be covered by ATAG. If you are web based and your UI is displayed by a browser, you have to follow WCAG. If you aren't web based, then you need to find out the platform accessibility requirements and follow them. 18:07:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-20090909/#def-Authoring-Tool 18:08:25 Any software, or collection of software components, that authors can use to create or modify web content for use by other people. 18:09:09 JR: For use by other people, doesn't refer to things like Firebug, because it is not changing the experience for other people. 18:10:20 SH: The authoring tool is very clear that it is for authoring. User agent is less precise. 18:10:38 q+ 18:11:08 JR: Where that matters is with the accessibility APIs. We should be encouraging standard APIs. 18:11:36 ... it's got to communicate down through the user agent in a standard way. 18:12:21 SH: HTML5 Canvas worries me. Something could be drawn there that looks like a user agent but is really a graphic that doesn't update the DOM. 18:13:22 ... Looking at the HTML5 specification, many things could be implemented that look like browsers and user agents in a really superficial way that doesn't pass information tothe DOM. 18:13:37 JR: But that would mean that there is a gaping hole in WCAG. Is there? 18:13:54 SH: I'm trying to future-proof it. 18:14:37 JR: The line between authoring tools and user agents is pretty fine. 18:15:51 SH: I think this is far simpler when it is applied. If someone takes a javascript form, is that a web application? How do we define web application? Or is it just a form? 18:17:21 JR: Features have been added to meet UAAG. If this application is running in the base browser, and the web application is hiding the information that the UAAG features need, then those features need to be implemented on the addin side. 18:19:06 JR: Proposed test of whether a web application is also a user agent: Given a user agent conforming to uaag (ie with "uaag features"), if a web app is running/rendered by the user agent and the web app hides information required for the uaag features to operate, the web app is a user agent and needs to replicate the uaag features 18:21:03 Looks pretty good but may be better to say "the web apps needs to" rather than "the web pass is a user agent and needs to". 18:21:32 e.g., an app that takes SVG, converts them to gifs and sends down to browser as HTML+gifs 18:23:02 If the following condition is met then it is a Web-based User Agent and Must Conform to UAAG: 18:23:06 1) if a web app is running/rendered by the user agent and the web app hides information required for the uaag features to operate 18:23:31 If it's on the client, the SVG viewer would count as UA under Simon's second definition, since it renders within the browser window. 18:25:40 GL: Needs to be evaluated in the context within which it runs. 18:26:29 ation: Simon to update User Agent test. 18:26:48 Action: Simon to update user agent test. 18:26:48 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Simon 18:26:48 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, spieters) 18:27:09 Action: sharper to update User Agent Wording 18:27:10 Created ACTION-234 - Update User Agent Wording [on Simon Harper - due 2009-10-08]. 18:28:53 -Jan 18:28:56 -sharper 18:28:58 -kford 18:29:07 zakim, who is still here? 18:29:07 On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg 18:29:08 On IRC I see kford, jeanne, Jan, sharper, Greg, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 18:30:08 rrsagent, create minutes 18:30:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-minutes.html Greg 18:30:33 zakim, please part 18:30:33 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jan, Jeanne, sharper, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg 18:30:33 Zakim has left #ua 18:34:47 present- Gregg 18:34:54 present+ Greg 18:34:54 Present- Gregg 18:35:14 rrsagent, create minutes 18:35:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-minutes.html Greg 18:38:25 rrsagent, please part 18:38:25 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-actions.rdf : 18:38:25 ACTION: Simon to update user agent test. [1] 18:38:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-irc#T18-26-48 18:38:25 ACTION: sharper to update User Agent Wording [2] 18:38:25 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-ua-irc#T18-27-09