IRC log of dap on 2009-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:59:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
12:59:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:59:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:59:30 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
12:59:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
12:59:32 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:59:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
12:59:33 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2009
13:00:03 [darobin]
crap, I'm still an hour early!
13:26:35 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
13:33:13 [fhirsch]
fhirsch has joined #dap
13:33:42 [fhirsch]
zakim, this will be dap
13:33:42 [Zakim]
ok, fhirsch; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
13:36:52 [darobin]
yes, clearly PEBCAK in this case
13:37:00 [fhirsch]
fhirsch has changed the topic to: DAP Teleconference code 3279 Agenda ; please enter attendance with Present+ first_last , also please tell zakim who you are with zakim, aaa is handle ; for the phone bridge
13:37:34 [darobin]
but last week I was fine and made exactly the same mistake
13:37:46 [darobin]
so let's not presume that it's affecting my abilities in any way :)
13:38:10 [fhirsch]
Chair: Robin Berjon, Frederick Hirsch
13:38:38 [fhirsch]
Present: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch, Dominique_Hazaƫl-Massieux
13:39:30 [darobin]
Regrets: TLR, Kangchan_Lee
13:40:57 [JereK]
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13:40:59 [fhirsch]
Regrets: Thomas_Roessler, Arve_Bersvendsen, Kangchan_Lee
13:41:59 [fhirsch]
13:51:25 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:51:32 [Zakim]
13:51:34 [Zakim]
13:51:35 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
13:51:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Frederick_Hirsch
13:51:57 [MarcoMarengo]
MarcoMarengo has joined #dap
13:52:05 [MarcoMarengo]
Present+ MarcoMarengo
13:53:13 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:53:20 [Zakim]
13:53:36 [MarcoMarengo]
Zakim, mute me
13:53:36 [Zakim]
sorry, MarcoMarengo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:54:00 [dom]
Zakim, marengo is MarcoMarengo
13:54:00 [Zakim]
+MarcoMarengo; got it
13:54:08 [MarcoMarengo]
13:54:28 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #dap
13:56:15 [Zakim]
13:56:37 [Zakim]
13:56:46 [fhirsch]
zakim, ??P39 is fjh
13:56:46 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
13:57:01 [MarcoMarengo]
Zakim, mute me
13:57:01 [Zakim]
MarcoMarengo should now be muted
13:57:24 [fhirsch]
zakim, mute me
13:57:24 [Zakim]
sorry, fhirsch, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:57:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.588.aaaa - is perhaps mgylling
13:57:33 [fhirsch]
zakim, fhirsch is fjh
13:57:33 [Zakim]
sorry, fhirsch, I do not recognize a party named 'fhirsch'
13:57:40 [fhirsch]
zakim, fjh is fhirsch
13:57:40 [Zakim]
+fhirsch; got it
13:57:44 [fhirsch]
zakim, mute me
13:57:44 [Zakim]
fhirsch should now be muted
13:58:00 [fhirsch]
zakim, unmute me
13:58:01 [Zakim]
13:58:03 [Zakim]
fhirsch should no longer be muted
13:58:07 [darobin]
Zakim, who's here?
13:58:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MarcoMarengo (muted), AnssiK (muted), fhirsch, mgylling, ilkka
13:58:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see wonsuk, MarcoMarengo, JereK, fhirsch, AnssiK, Zakim, RRSAgent, darobin, tlr, arve, blassey, maxf, ilkka, arg, trackbot, dom
13:58:24 [darobin]
this is weird, I don't show up!
13:58:52 [darobin]
zakim, who's making noise?
13:58:56 [Zakim]
13:59:03 [Zakim]
darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fhirsch (1%)
13:59:05 [Zakim]
13:59:31 [darobin]
Present+ StephenLewontin
13:59:34 [LauraArribas]
LauraArribas has joined #dap
13:59:47 [Zakim]
13:59:54 [JereK]
Present+ Jere_Kapyaho
14:00:14 [LauraArribas]
Present+ LauraArribas
14:00:42 [Zakim]
14:00:48 [Zakim]
14:00:51 [dom]
zakim, who's on the call?
14:00:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MarcoMarengo (muted), AnssiK (muted), fhirsch, mgylling, ilkka, wonsuk, StephenLewontin, JereK, Dom, richt
14:00:55 [hui_miao]
hui_miao has joined #dap
14:01:01 [darobin]
Zakim, who's making noise?
14:01:12 [Zakim]
darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fhirsch (5%), JereK (14%), Dom (65%)
14:01:14 [Zakim]
14:01:24 [brianleroux]
brianleroux has joined #dap
14:01:32 [darobin]
JereK: you would make a great scribe!
14:01:42 [JereK]
yes! :-)
14:01:45 [dom]
14:01:52 [brianleroux]
14:02:03 [paddy]
paddy has joined #dap
14:02:14 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:02:33 [Zakim]
14:02:35 [darobin]
Scribe: Jere
14:02:35 [Zakim]
14:02:40 [darobin]
ScribeNick: JereK
14:02:46 [Zakim]
14:02:48 [Zakim]
14:03:01 [hui_miao]
Present+ hui_miao
14:03:14 [hui_miao]
Zakim, ??P51 is hui_miao
14:03:14 [richt]
14:03:14 [Zakim]
+hui_miao; got it
14:03:35 [brianleroux]
will not be able to call in due to family noise pollution / hope thats ok =)
14:03:37 [claudio]
claudio has joined #dap
14:03:38 [richt]
14:03:42 [Zakim]
14:03:57 [ingmar]
ingmar has joined #dap
14:04:02 [marcin]
marcin has joined #dap
14:04:03 [drogersuk]
drogersuk has joined #dap
14:04:08 [JereK]
TOPIC: Announcements
14:04:18 [fhirsch]
dial in questionnaire
14:04:18 [fhirsch]
14:04:31 [JereK]
fhirsch: TPAC coming up, please register and fill in phone-in questionnaire
14:04:32 [fhirsch]
reminder about tpac
14:04:33 [fhirsch]
14:04:35 [dom]
[note that the number of hotel rooms blocked for TPAC is going down rapidly]
14:04:35 [AnssiK]
should people who will be attending f2f submit the questionnaire?
14:04:47 [marcin]
Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
14:04:51 [JereK]
fhirsch: DAP meeting as originally scheduled
14:04:52 [paddy]
Present+ Paddy_Byers
14:04:54 [ingmar]
14:04:56 [JereK]
TOPIC: Minutes approval
14:04:58 [fhirsch]
14:05:10 [JereK]
fhirsch: minutes sent out yesterday, approval?
14:05:22 [drogersuk]
Present+ David_Rogers
14:05:30 [richt]
Present+ Richard_Tibbett
14:05:30 [JereK]
RESOLUTION: minutes of Sep 29 approved
14:05:47 [JereK]
TOPIC: Editorial team report
14:05:51 [Zakim]
+ + - is perhaps Claes?
14:06:14 [JereK]
fhirsch: one other person wanted to join editorial team?
14:06:17 [Zakim]
14:06:21 [Zakim]
14:06:23 [JereK]
darobin: Anselm
14:06:36 [JereK]
fhirsch: need to join W3C first, all help welcome
14:06:46 [JereK]
... need to talk with Dom or tlr first
14:06:54 [Claes]
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14:07:03 [JereK]
TOPIC: Action items
14:07:20 [JereK]
fhirsch: should move actions to pending
14:07:36 [JereK]
... when completed, please send mail to list to let ppl know what you've done
14:07:42 [JereK]
... helps with follow-up
14:08:03 [JereK]
TOPIC: Policy Segment
14:08:25 [JereK]
fhirsch: some open action items remain, discussion about possible additional material needed
14:08:42 [JereK]
... some decisions we have to make
14:08:49 [fhirsch]
14:08:55 [claudio]
Present+ Claudio_Venezia
14:08:55 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:08:55 [JereK]
... looked at high-level material of the inputs
14:09:10 [JereK]
... someone from BONDI please give info about 1.01
14:09:38 [dtran]
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14:09:40 [JereK]
... e-mail summarizes points so far, but doesn't cover everything
14:09:58 [JereK]
... one of the big ones is do we need both capabilities for both APIs and device
14:10:01 [drogersuk]
I'll give you some more info on the diffs between 1.01 and 1.0 via email
14:10:08 [drogersuk]
(for BONDI)
14:10:18 [JereK]
... don't know if it's issue for WG, but want discussion on the mailing list
14:11:08 [JereK]
... reading items from list quickly
14:11:50 [JereK]
... bunch of Qs about identification, would like to see a mail thread started about it
14:11:56 [JereK]
... language independence
14:12:05 [JereK]
... use XML for policy, worth discussion
14:12:29 [JereK]
... thread about separate policy decision exists
14:12:59 [JereK]
... can someone take an action to summarize HTML5 security policy?
14:13:19 [JereK]
... need actions to move things forward
14:13:44 [JereK]
... thanks David for the diff information, any more detail would be useful
14:13:46 [darobin]
ACTION: David to provide diffs for the BONDI versions
14:13:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Provide diffs for the BONDI versions [on David Rogers - due 2009-10-07].
14:14:08 [paddy]
I can start a discussion on features/device capabilities
14:14:15 [JereK]
... now would be a good time to discuss
14:14:16 [dom]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:14:27 [Zakim]
dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fhirsch (21%), StephenLewontin (93%), JereK (14%)
14:14:27 [drogersuk]
can't hear a thing
14:14:30 [hendry]
hendry has joined #dap
14:14:32 [dom]
zakim, mute StephenLewontin
14:14:32 [Zakim]
StephenLewontin should now be muted
14:14:40 [drogersuk]
14:15:11 [darobin]
ACTION: Paddy to open an issue and start a discussion on features/device capabilities
14:15:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - Open an issue and start a discussion on features/device capabilities [on Paddy Byers - due 2009-10-07].
14:15:21 [JereK]
fhirsch: link to TAG discussion regarding policy sent by Robin
14:15:35 [JereK]
... has been a big issue in Geolocation, concerns retaining information
14:15:47 [JereK]
... anybody in the position to take actions related to policy?
14:16:06 [JereK]
darobin: Paddy took an action about features/device capabilities
14:16:29 [fhirsch]
need help with identifying APIs, Capabilities, FEaturews by URI
14:16:39 [Zakim]
14:16:53 [JereK]
fhirsch: maybe also related WebIDL stuff
14:17:07 [JereK]
darobin: no WebIDL stuff in this, not in terms of URIs
14:17:18 [JereK]
fhirsch: could use help with this
14:17:37 [JereK]
darobin: should probably open this as an issue, what levels of granularity for identification
14:18:01 [JereK]
fhirsch: granularity of access control
14:18:23 [JereK]
... need to talk this through on the list, more than one person can do this
14:18:34 [JereK]
... get stuff done and see what's wrong with it
14:18:51 [JereK]
... can go quicker if we have something to disagree
14:19:10 [JereK]
StephenLewontin: volunteer to help with the HTML5 security
14:19:25 [dom]
ACTION: Stephen to look into HTML5 security model
14:19:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-24 - Look into HTML5 security model [on stephen lewontin - due 2009-10-07].
14:19:29 [marcin]
14:19:49 [JereK]
SteveLewontin: need any requirements for capability semantics?
14:19:54 [Zakim]
14:19:59 [JereK]
... how are those defined, just recommendations?
14:20:02 [Zakim]
14:20:12 [JereK]
fhirsch: clearly have to say what we mean
14:20:15 [maxf]
zakim, mute me
14:20:15 [Zakim]
maxf should now be muted
14:20:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.801.756.aacc
14:20:31 [fhirsch]
issue: policy, need to define semantics of capabilities or not
14:20:32 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-24 - Policy, need to define semantics of capabilities or not ; please complete additional details at .
14:20:39 [JereK]
SteveLewontin: will put this in writing, need to make a decision about the semantics of capabilities
14:20:52 [dom]
ACTION-24 due in two weeks
14:20:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-24 Look into HTML5 security model due date now in two weeks
14:20:54 [fhirsch]
ack marcin
14:20:56 [Zakim]
+ + - is perhaps Claes?
14:20:57 [JereK]
... will make an effort to do the action in two weeks
14:21:18 [JereK]
marcin: currently discussions in BONDI around features and capabilities for 1.1
14:21:31 [JereK]
... white paper to highlight topics in progress
14:21:36 [Claes]
zakim, Claes is handle
14:21:36 [Zakim]
+handle; got it
14:21:52 [JereK]
... needs some additions due to recent input, could use it as input for this in DAP
14:22:04 [JereK]
.. doable by next week's call
14:22:08 [dom]
ACTION: marcin to provide BONDI white paper on features and capabilities
14:22:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-25 - Provide BONDI white paper on features and capabilities [on Marcin Hanclik - due 2009-10-07].
14:22:32 [fhirsch]
14:22:35 [JereK]
fhirsch: thanks Marcin
14:22:45 [JereK]
... back to the list
14:23:02 [JereK]
... another big one is trusted identity and trust
14:23:14 [JereK]
... don't want PKI, but need to see how far to go in this direction
14:23:50 [JereK]
... don't think there's any disagremeent in separating policy, the BONDI ones are straightforward
14:24:07 [JereK]
... would be helpful to get the material from people
14:24:30 [JereK]
... would be good to have a proposal when you create the issue, will send mail about this
14:24:43 [JereK]
... will be more productive that way
14:24:48 [JereK]
... any other comments about policy?
14:24:52 [JereK]
14:25:07 [JereK]
TOPIC: API Segment
14:25:14 [dom]
14:25:14 [trackbot]
ISSUE-12 -- Gathering requirements for Gallery API -- OPEN
14:25:14 [trackbot]
14:25:30 [JereK]
darobin: how do we orthogonalize API design so that policy is still workable
14:25:46 [JereK]
... example is user grants access to gallery, depends on while
14:26:03 [JereK]
... simplest thing is to ignore the issue and hope policy system handles, but could be too simplistic
14:26:08 [darobin]
14:26:15 [JereK]
... suggested to raise an issue about this, link above
14:26:19 [darobin]
14:26:27 [JereK]
... Richard raised another issue, link above
14:26:43 [darobin]
ISSUE: Orthogonality of API and Policy systems when an API has dependencies on other APIs
14:26:43 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-25 - Orthogonality of API and Policy systems when an API has dependencies on other APIs ; please complete additional details at .
14:26:46 [richt]
14:26:55 [darobin]
ack richt
14:27:12 [JereK]
richt: let's call it cross-module dependencies and impact on policy
14:27:18 [JereK]
darobin: means what you just said
14:27:42 [JereK]
richt: and the grouping of features and capabilities if that's relevant
14:27:48 [JereK]
darobin: now updated with the correct name
14:27:51 [fhirsch]
issue-25 grant access to gallery yet gallery depends on file, is this implicit
14:27:59 [JereK]
... potentially complicated enough to discuss by mail not by phone
14:28:18 [JereK]
... would like to note that this has also been discussed in BONDI, input from those people welcome
14:28:26 [marcin]
14:28:35 [darobin]
ack marcin
14:28:48 [JereK]
marcin: issue 25 is related to discussion about policy, could combine them
14:29:13 [fhirsch]
yes it is policy related
14:29:19 [JereK]
darobin: definitely, depending on decision about policy power, API could be designed to be free of policy issues, but also the other way around
14:29:24 [fhirsch]
14:29:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 -- Marcin Hanclik to provide BONDI white paper on features and capabilities -- due 2009-10-07 -- OPEN
14:29:24 [trackbot]
14:29:29 [JereK]
marcin: issue 25 is related to action 25
14:29:35 [JereK]
darobin: lucky strike
14:30:00 [JereK]
darobin: thanks Marcin
14:30:14 [JereK]
... question of umbrella requirements document for APIs, any objections?
14:30:20 [dtran]
Dzung Tran is on the phone (muted)
14:30:44 [fhirsch]
14:30:50 [JereK]
14:31:09 [fhirsch]
s/yes/yes to Robin's question, no objection
14:31:15 [JereK]
darobin: will check document to IRC so that Bryan has something to work with, then move forward
14:31:37 [JereK]
... many requirements gathering issues, 7, 14, etc., discussions ongoing
14:31:49 [JereK]
... anyone have any issue they'd like to bring up regarding API reqs?
14:31:49 [dom]
(umbrella req document relates to ISSUE-22, which I assume can now be closed)
14:31:58 [JereK]
14:32:00 [richt]
14:32:07 [darobin]
ack richt
14:32:29 [JereK]
richt: discussion about System Information led to asynchronicity
14:32:41 [JereK]
... could be something to discuss in the umbrella document
14:32:46 [JereK]
darobin: issue 14?
14:33:01 [JereK]
... that should move to 'applies to all APIs' section, agreed
14:33:10 [JereK]
... anything else on API reqs?
14:33:14 [JereK]
14:33:34 [JereK]
darobin: will coordinate with Bryan about the reqs posted so far, then start fleshing out the real APIs
14:33:41 [JereK]
... anything further on APIs?
14:33:45 [JereK]
14:33:56 [JereK]
TOPIC: Issue review
14:34:09 [JereK]
fhirsch: no need to go one by one
14:34:18 [fhirsch]
14:34:18 [JereK]
... but not that many, just ask status
14:34:37 [JereK]
darobin: three quarters are those justed talked about in the API section, doesn't leave much
14:34:44 [JereK]
14:34:45 [dom]
s/issue 14/issue-14/
14:34:48 [Zakim]
14:35:00 [maxf]
zakim, drop maxf
14:35:00 [Zakim]
maxf is being disconnected
14:35:02 [Zakim]
14:35:04 [JereK]
fhirsch; talk about error handling, but might make sense to wait
14:35:13 [JereK]
darobin: error handling better discussed in e-mail
14:35:13 [maxf]
zakim, maxf.a is me
14:35:13 [Zakim]
+maxf; got it
14:35:39 [JereK]
... there was the beginning of a thread, ISSUE-2
14:35:43 [darobin]
14:35:55 [JereK]
fhirsch: relationship of error handling to security and leakage of information?
14:36:00 [JereK]
... any talk in BONDI?
14:36:15 [JereK]
darobin: hasn't been discussed as ISSUE-2, not sure about BONDI
14:36:26 [JereK]
fhirsch: maybe less important now than other things
14:36:43 [JereK]
... end the call early if we run out of topics, continue actively on the list
14:37:05 [JereK]
... need to get enough material on the list to have a meaningful call
14:37:08 [JereK]
darobin: agreed
14:37:17 [JereK]
fhirsch: any concerns or issues to raise?
14:37:23 [JereK]
14:37:33 [JereK]
fhirsch; work on the issue and post on the list
14:37:37 [JereK]
darobin: great idea
14:37:41 [richt]
Congraulations to Arve :-)
14:37:50 [dom]
s/fhirsch;/ fhirsch:/
14:37:54 [JereK]
darobin: adjourned
14:37:54 [Zakim]
14:37:57 [Zakim]
14:38:03 [dom]
s/ fhirsch:/fhirsch:/
14:38:11 [JereK]
TOPIC: Other Business
14:38:13 [JereK]
14:38:17 [JereK]
TOPIC: Adjourn
14:38:18 [Zakim]
14:38:27 [brianleroux]
14:38:31 [Zakim]
14:38:33 [Zakim]
14:38:34 [Zakim]
14:38:35 [Zakim]
14:38:35 [Zakim]
14:38:37 [Zakim]
14:38:38 [Zakim]
14:38:38 [Zakim]
14:38:39 [Zakim]
14:38:40 [marcin]
14:38:42 [Zakim]
14:38:43 [darobin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:38:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate darobin
14:38:46 [Zakim]
- +1.801.756.aacc
14:38:48 [Zakim]
14:38:50 [Zakim]
14:38:52 [Zakim]
14:38:55 [darobin]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
14:38:55 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', darobin. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:39:00 [darobin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:39:04 [darobin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:39:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate darobin
14:39:04 [Zakim]
14:39:29 [dtran]
quick question: how do you map your handle ??:59 to Dzung Tran
14:39:36 [hendry]
hendry has left #dap
14:40:04 [Zakim]
14:40:17 [fhirsch]
zakim, ??P59 is dtran
14:40:17 [Zakim]
I already had ??P59 as ??P59, fhirsch
14:40:29 [fhirsch]
zakim, ??:59 is dtran
14:40:29 [Zakim]
sorry, fhirsch, I do not recognize a party named '??:59'
14:40:49 [dtran]
14:40:55 [dtran]
I guess I am 59
14:41:00 [dtran]
which is Dzung Tran
14:41:18 [darobin]
Zakim, drop wonsuk
14:41:20 [Zakim]
wonsuk is being disconnected
14:41:22 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
14:41:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were MarcoMarengo, AnssiK, +1.617.588.aaaa, fhirsch, ilkka, wonsuk, StephenLewontin, JereK, Dom, richt, maxf, LauraArribas, Ingmar_Kliche, hui_miao, marcin2,
14:41:29 [Zakim]
... +, DzungTran, +1.801.756.aacc, +, Claes
14:41:39 [drogersuk]
I was 54 i think
14:41:47 [fhirsch]
14:42:06 [darobin]
drogersuk: you look younger though
14:42:15 [drogersuk]
regular shaving
14:42:17 [drogersuk]
14:42:20 [darobin]
RRSAgent: bye
14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: David to provide diffs for the BONDI versions [1]
14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
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14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Paddy to open an issue and start a discussion on features/device capabilities [2]
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14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Stephen to look into HTML5 security model [3]
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ACTION: marcin to provide BONDI white paper on features and capabilities [4]
14:42:20 [RRSAgent]
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