IRC log of tagmem on 2009-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:05:04 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
13:05:04 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/25-tagmem-irc
13:08:25 [noahm]: noahm has joined #tagmem
13:11:11 [Ashok]: scribenick: Ashok
13:11:15 [DanC_lap]: DanC_lap has joined #tagmem
13:11:24 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, agenda?
13:11:24 [Zakim]: I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
13:11:25 [Zakim]: 3. Naming Schemes [from DanC_lap]
13:11:27 [Zakim]: 6. TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings) [from DanC_lap]
13:11:29 [Zakim]: 2. HTML [from DanC_lap]
13:11:29 [Zakim]: 4. Javascript Security [from DanC_lap]
13:11:30 [Zakim]: 5. TPAC distributed extensibility [from DanC_lap]
13:11:32 [Zakim]: 7. writing session [from DanC_lap]
13:11:34 [Zakim]: 8. TAG priorities [from DanC_lap]
13:11:35 [Zakim]: 9. HTML, URIs, Error handling [from DanC_lap]
13:11:36 [Zakim]: 10. WebSockets [from johnk via DanC_lap]
13:11:37 [Zakim]: 11. URL terminology [from jar via DanC_lap]
13:11:42 [Ashok]: Noah: reviews the agenda
13:11:54 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, close item 3
13:11:54 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Naming Schemes, closed
13:11:55 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:11:56 [Zakim]: 6. TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings) [from DanC_lap]
13:12:16 [johnk]: johnk has joined #tagmem
13:12:34 [Ashok]: Noah: I would like to spend majority of our time on HTML
13:12:58 [Ashok]: ... skip TAG Priorities
13:13:12 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, close item 10
13:13:12 [Zakim]: agendum 10, WebSockets, closed
13:13:13 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:13:14 [Zakim]: 6. TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings) [from DanC_lap]
13:13:45 [Ashok]: Noah: Let's do admin right after lunch
13:14:27 [Ashok]: Jar: Let's ask people what they are gonna do
13:14:38 [Ashok]: Noah: Let's use Action Item list
13:15:23 [Ashok]: Topic: HTML Issues
13:15:29 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, take up item 2
13:15:29 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "HTML" taken up [from DanC_lap]
13:16:50 [Ashok]: Noah: What shd be next topic for discussion
13:17:14 [Ashok]: Larry: I thought were close to consensus on sniffing
13:17:25 [Ashok]: Noah: Let's do it on a telcon
13:17:43 [Ashok]: Larry: I think we could come up with a position on it.
13:18:06 [Ashok]: HT: I have action to propose pushback or accept status quo
13:18:25 [Ashok]: Noah: Who wants to discuss sniffing now?
13:19:11 [DanC_lap]: action-309?
13:19:11 [trackbot]: ACTION-309 -- Henry S. Thompson to s. to bring back proposed TAG pushback on sniffing and HTTP bis draft http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/export/663/draft-ietf-httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html, or his recommendation that we leave it alone -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
13:19:11 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/309
13:19:37 [Ashok]: HT: My inclination is to ask them for a health warning
13:19:53 [Ashok]: Larry: I would like to discuss for 10 mts
13:20:21 [Ashok]: Poll 3 to 1 ... not now
13:20:42 [Ashok]: Noah: What next item to discuss
13:20:52 [Ashok]: DC: Data facilities
13:22:03 [Ashok]: HT: I would like to report what I found out wrt item 13
13:22:35 [Ashok]: HT to give 3 minite report on item 13
13:22:52 [Ashok]: HT: I took the binary attribute case
13:23:10 [Ashok]: Tim: Boolean
13:23:42 [Ashok]: HT: I explored that whereever there was an error there shd be error recovery case
13:24:05 [Ashok]: .... I sent mail and was told "No, what you say goes in the doc"
13:24:22 [jar]: dom
13:24:24 [johnk]: s/doc/DOM/
13:24:47 [DanC_lap]: (ht, did you say "it's all in public-html"? I don't see it in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/thread.html )
13:24:51 [Ashok]: HT: Reason is -- this is an extensibility point
13:25:14 [DanC_lap]: (false advertising. this is discussion. not clarification)
13:25:29 [Ashok]: Larry: Is input disabled or is it not?
13:25:48 [DanC_lap]: ah... found it: Where is processing of binary attributes covered? Henry S. Thompson (Wednesday, 23 September) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2009Sep/0064.html
13:25:48 [Ashok]: HT: It IS disabled
13:26:09 [Ashok]: HR: Binary atts are true if present false if not present
13:26:43 [Ashok]: Larry: So, disabled = false results in TRUE
13:27:30 [Ashok]: Topic: HTML Data Facilities
13:28:19 [Ashok]: Tim: 2 overlapping concerns --- how shd data be handled in HTML, --- overlap with extensibility of TAGs
13:28:47 [Ashok]: ... it's impt to put RDF into HTML
13:29:36 [Ashok]: Tim: RDFa spec tells you how to do thatr
13:29:46 [Ashok]: s/thatr/that/
13:30:32 [Ashok]: ... Hixie said removing namespaces was a goal and it's hard to use RDFa without namespaces
13:31:19 [Ashok]: Noah: Shall we separate extensibility concerns
13:32:02 [Ashok]: Tim: I'm happy to discuss microdata and Hixie's special data format
13:32:30 [jar]: 'rdfh' ... I'd like to hear more about this
13:34:42 [Ashok]: Tim writes in board --- RDF in HTML,, RDFa, , microformata, Data-Attributes, ---- no NS in HTML, Extension Tags
13:35:14 [Ashok]: Tim: These are various positions people have taken
13:35:31 [noahm]: q?
13:35:48 [noahm]: We are using the queue
13:35:52 [noahm]: I think
13:35:57 [Ashok]: jar: Has anyone articulated that you can you RDFa in HTML w/o namespaces
13:36:07 [Ashok]: DC: There is a proposal
13:36:25 [DanC_lap]: s/RDFa in/RDF in/
13:36:27 [Ashok]: s/RDFa/RDF/
13:37:16 [jar]: the answer was: Yes, data- does RDF in HTML, but only a (albeit useful) subset.
13:37:38 [noahm]: q?
13:37:52 [Ashok]: Tim: Some say don't bother with namespaces others say give me the namespaces tool
13:38:01 [DanC_lap]: TBL: the blobs are positions; the x's are issues.
13:38:25 [Ashok]: Larry: HTML5 now has a data format based on no known experience
13:38:52 [johnk]: q+ to note that I believe "no namespace prefix mapping" is more accurate than "no namespace"
13:39:00 [Ashok]: DC: No deployment of the data stuff
13:39:15 [ht]: ht has joined #tagmem
13:39:25 [DanC_lap]: blobs = RDF in HTML, RDFa, Need NS in HTML, microformats, data-*, No NS in HTML, Extending Tags
13:39:49 [Ashok]: jar: You could extract triples from data-attributes
13:39:49 [ht]: q+ to ask about <script type="text/rdf+xml">...</script>
13:39:58 [Ashok]: DC: That code has been written
13:40:42 [Ashok]: Discussion about whether data- or item-property
13:41:33 [Ashok]: Noah opens HTML spec
13:41:54 [timbl]: timbl has joined #tagmem
13:42:12 [Ashok]: DC: 5.2 Microdata
13:42:17 [DanC_lap]: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#encoding-microdata 5.2 Encoding microdata
13:43:06 [DanC_lap]: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#custom-data-attribute 3.2.3.8 Embedding custom non-visible data
13:43:07 [Ashok]: DC: Custom data attributes: 3.2.3.8
13:44:36 [Ashok]: Noah: What is difference between data- and the item stuff
13:45:04 [Ashok]: .... if you do data- you get a Javastring object with that name
13:45:23 [Ashok]: s/Javastring/Javascript/
13:45:49 [Ashok]: DC: What's motivation
13:46:33 [Ashok]: Noah: Extends that data space for Javascript programmers
13:47:04 [Ashok]: HT: It's a way of extending attribute space
13:47:11 [jar]: q?
13:47:33 [jar]: q+ jar to suggest ccrel as a use case?
13:48:00 [Ashok]: HT: The para after the note is the justification
13:48:19 [Ashok]: Noah: How id different from item-
13:48:33 [Ashok]: ... is there a glimmer of a comment here?
13:49:55 [Ashok]: JK: There may be another position --- no NS mapping rather than no NS
13:50:57 [Ashok]: Noah: There is third position ... just use short names and handle with collisions
13:51:13 [Ashok]: s/with//
13:51:48 [Ashok]: Tim: The item- maps to a URI
13:52:35 [Ashok]: JK: Section 5.1.3 in WHATWG spec
13:53:48 [Ashok]: .... says "As URLs"
13:54:00 [Ashok]: Larry: This section is non-normative
13:54:54 [Ashok]: Tim: This is a competing proposal to RDFa
13:55:59 [Ashok]: ... subject is where it is attched to
13:56:13 [Ashok]: Looking a frag in 5.1.2
13:56:58 [Ashok]: Tim: Itemprop can be URI or reverse DNS thingie
13:57:36 [Ashok]: Noah: Both data- and item overlap with RDFa
13:57:52 [Ashok]: .... could extract RDFa from this
13:58:00 [Ashok]: jar: That is not a usecase
13:58:02 [noahm]: q?
13:58:08 [noahm]: ack johnk
13:58:08 [Zakim]: johnk, you wanted to note that I believe "no namespace prefix mapping" is more accurate than "no namespace"
13:58:49 [Ashok]: Discussion on whether RDFa can be represented in this form
13:58:58 [noahm]: q+ to say, I claimed this stuff was related to GRDDL more than RDFa
13:59:40 [Ashok]: Tim: Go to 5.1.4 and look at example
14:01:03 [Ashok]: .... 2 properties of Hedral
14:01:41 [Ashok]: JK: Section 5.2.3
14:02:00 [Ashok]: .... Associating names with Items
14:03:38 [Ashok]: HT: In 5.1.1 near the end --- properties don't have to be given as descendents of the element with item attribute
14:04:32 [Ashok]: ... They can be associated with a specific item using the itemfor attribute which takes the ID of the element with the item attribute
14:05:27 [Ashok]: DC: There is a wellknown pattern for licenses for images. Is that expressible in this syntax.
14:05:41 [timbl]: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/microdata.html#overview
14:07:44 [Ashok]: HT: Properties that also have values that are URLs. This is achieved by using the a element and the href attribute, ....
14:08:23 [Ashok]: Tim: 5.5.2 RDF ...
14:08:29 [ht]: Looks to me that <img src="....." item /> <div style="display: hide"><a href="xxxxx" itemprop="[CCREL]"></a></div> will do it
14:09:15 [noahm]: q+
14:09:35 [Ashok]: Tim: We could make a comment about the process
14:09:43 [jar]: q- jar
14:09:52 [noahm]: ac2 ht
14:09:55 [noahm]: ack ht
14:09:55 [Zakim]: ht, you wanted to ask about <script type="text/rdf+xml">...</script>
14:10:56 [Ashok]: HT: Minor aspect of script which says the script item is used to introduce scriot of data ... type of data is type of script
14:11:04 [noahm]: ack next
14:11:05 [Zakim]: noahm, you wanted to say, I claimed this stuff was related to GRDDL more than RDFa and to
14:11:08 [Ashok]: .... does not say what you can do with the data
14:11:10 [noahm]: q?
14:11:12 [ht]: s/scriot of/script or/
14:11:22 [ht]: s/type of script/given by type attr of script/
14:12:43 [jar]: ben a: " it makes things much more roundabout to write since itemprop applies to both (either?) @href and the element content"
14:14:16 [Ashok]: HT: The item I put in IRC log will do what jar asks
14:15:02 [Ashok]: HT: I left out the ID and the iterm4
14:15:55 [Ashok]: s/iterm4/item4/
14:16:01 [ht]: <img src="....." item id="photo7" /> ... <div style="display: hide"><a href="xxxxx" itemprop="[CCREL]" subject="photo7"></a></div>
14:16:14 [Ashok]: Tim: Critiques the algorithm
14:16:37 [ht]: more recent draft uses 'foritem' for 'subject'
14:17:32 [Ashok]: Tim: There is incredible tension between communities expressed on the board
14:17:48 [Ashok]: ... TAG could perform useful function.
14:18:00 [ht]: s/foritem/itemfor/
14:18:17 [Ashok]: ... if it is functionally equivalent to RDFa or not
14:18:44 [Ashok]: s/if //
14:19:00 [DanC_lap]: ht, we could try out the example you made...
14:19:01 [DanC_lap]: [10:17] <Philip> DanC_lap: http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html ?
14:19:01 [DanC_lap]: [10:18] <Philip> Also http://james.html5.org/microdata/
14:19:19 [Ashok]: Larry: I'm concerned about us not driving to statements
14:19:28 [DanC_lap]: [10:17] <Philip> DanC_lap: http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html ?
14:19:28 [DanC_lap]: [10:18] <Philip> Also http://james.html5.org/microdata/
14:19:28 [Ashok]: .... I have a process suggestion
14:19:44 [Ashok]: .... create statement and choose between them
14:19:58 [Ashok]: DC: That may be helpful
14:20:45 [Ashok]: Larry: 10 minutes to solicit things we may say
14:21:26 [noahm]: JAR: One thing we might say is: "HTML has to adopt namespaces and RDFa" (not sure I believe that, but it's one thing we might want to say)
14:22:10 [jar]: or reject
14:22:24 [DanC_lap]: LMM: I see no justification for reverse DNS labels where URIs are allowed
14:22:27 [DanC_lap]: tbl 2nds
14:22:53 [Ashok]: Larry: No justification for introducing breverse DNS-based namespace mechanisms are adequate
14:22:53 [noahm]: s/are allowed/would solve the problem/
14:22:55 [DanC_lap]: s/are allowed/are adequate/
14:23:28 [jar]: (jar was confused by 'reverse DNS' - I think what's meant is "reversed domain names" and is not related to reverse DNS lookup)
14:23:38 [Ashok]: Tim: RDFa and item- are almost identical functionality
14:24:39 [Ashok]: ... so they crete fragmentation which is always damaging
14:24:46 [DanC_lap]: q+ to say we might say that RDFa should have no special status just because it's a REC, since W3C allowed it to go thru CR without coordination with HTML 5
14:25:06 [noahm]: q+ noah
14:25:33 [johnk]: Notes: http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol3/html/Quin01/BalisageVol3-Quin01.html on "automatic XML namespaces"
14:25:44 [Ashok]: HT: Introducing a new unimplemented and untried design where there is a implemented tried design is not helpful
14:26:05 [noahm]: ack DanC
14:26:05 [Zakim]: DanC_lap, you wanted to say we might say that RDFa should have no special status just because it's a REC, since W3C allowed it to go thru CR without coordination with HTML 5
14:26:33 [jar]: is there a requirements statement for item, itemprop etc? is rdf capture a requirement? where articulated?
14:26:58 [Ashok]: Noah: The item- is simpler syntactically ... I'm half-convinced about this
14:27:16 [johnk]: ... and http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200907/msg00157.html "pragmatic XML namespaces"
14:28:08 [noahm]: q?
14:28:10 [noahm]: ack noah
14:28:15 [Ashok]: ... not enough justification for duplication
14:28:26 [DanC_lap]: (re "would anybody use microdata?" there's a relevant thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/thread.html#msg732 )
14:28:43 [Ashok]: Tim: RDFa is REALLY simple
14:29:13 [Ashok]: .... first notation for mapping RDF to XML was really complicated
14:29:17 [johnk]: "How to make namespaces in XML easier": http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1151612438
14:29:35 [noahm]: I heard Tim say the opposite; I heard him say RDF as a model is inherently very simple, but RDFa (and also RDFXML) is suprisingly complicated
14:29:59 [Ashok]: ... there is a lot of parser state to be acrried along
14:30:19 [DanC_lap]: q+ to say that complexity for the parser is often anti-correlated with complexity for the author
14:30:49 [ht]: s/RDFa is simple/RDF is simple/
14:30:52 [jar]: s/RDFa is REALLY/RDF is REALLY/
14:31:39 [DanC_lap]: q+ danc2 to ask who are the daily minutes-editors
14:32:05 [noahm]: For those curious about my "Tim said the opposite" comment, our scribes used log edits to fix what Tim said. I do not believe said the opposite of the fixed comment.
14:32:14 [timbl]: ... aka /opposite/d
14:33:13 [Ashok]: BREAK till 10:50
14:35:31 [timbl]: I said that RDF/XML was surprisingly complicated, people saying that that came from its attempt to look like "colloquial XML"; that we had a fwe other attempts at syntaxes, including N3, and the in *ML again we had RDFa, maybe the fourth, which to me was surprisingly complicated, involving a surprsing amount of state to be held by the parser duriung its recusive descent, and now we have RDFb (lets call it) whcih attempts the same thing,m and again is surprsingly
14:35:31 [timbl]: complicated when you look at eth alogorithm. Is there a fundamental difficulty to this challenge?
14:57:49 [Ashok]: s/alogorithm/algorithm/
14:59:36 [Ashok]: JK: I pasted a link about distributed extensibility above
15:00:03 [masinter]: masinter has joined #tagmem
15:00:22 [noahm]: Chair notes that we are filling some time talking about proposals that are floating around for namespace-based extensibility until Tim gets back.
15:00:27 [Ashok]: ... there are other prosals: Liam Quin and Tim Bray's delta on Micah Dubinko's proposal
15:00:36 [masinter]: s/prosals/proposals/
15:00:57 [johnk]: http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol3/html/Quin01/BalisageVol3-Quin01.html
15:00:57 [noahm]: JK: First proposal is Balisage proposal from Liam Quin
15:02:16 [masinter]: references include pointer to http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1151612438
15:02:16 [Ashok]: HT: This says we are going to associate NSs with some elements. Does away with prefixes
15:02:34 [Ashok]: DC: There is some outboard doc that gives the mapping
15:02:52 [Ashok]: HT: Processors will bake in a version of the doc they support
15:03:40 [Ashok]: Noah: Some will be baked in others is a outboard doc
15:04:20 [Ashok]: DC: Does this work like static scoping?
15:04:54 [Ashok]: ... if elements indicate namespaces then it's like static scoping
15:05:23 [johnk]: xml-dev collated proposal http://www.dpawson.co.uk/namespaces/index.html
15:06:05 [Ashok]: JK: This where the thread that Micah started ended up ... this has notion of reverse domain syntax
15:06:31 [Ashok]: ... Micah's email
15:06:32 [johnk]: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200907/msg00157.html
15:07:18 [Ashok]: HT: This is too disruptive so it's non-starter
15:09:55 [Ashok]: Noah: Do we continue on Data Facilities? or move to other topics?
15:10:09 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, remind us in 10 minutes to move on
15:10:09 [Zakim]: ok, DanC_lap
15:10:17 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, remind us in 15 minutes to move on
15:10:17 [Zakim]: ok, DanC_lap
15:10:36 [DanC_lap]: ack me
15:10:36 [Zakim]: DanC_lap, you wanted to say that complexity for the parser is often anti-correlated with complexity for the author
15:10:42 [noahm]: q?
15:10:46 [noahm]: ack danc2
15:10:46 [Zakim]: danc2, you wanted to ask who are the daily minutes-editors
15:11:15 [Ashok]: DC: There are 2 kinds of complexity: for authors and for parser writers
15:11:29 [masinter]: q+
15:11:59 [Ashok]: Tim: If its hard to write the parser it's hard for authors
15:12:07 [noahm]: In about 7 minutes, which will be ~ halfway through, I will stop discussion to see if we are closing in on next steps.
15:12:13 [masinter]: q+ to talk about complexity for tools for generating, ability to mash-up, ability to copy-paste
15:12:19 [jar]: danc: Syntactic sugar and defaults make authoring easier but parsing harder
15:12:31 [Ashok]: Discussion abt syntactic sugar
15:13:06 [DanC_lap]: q+ danc3 to note complexity discussion currently
15:13:11 [Ashok]: Tim: 2 pieces --- triples and triple state
15:14:14 [DanC_lap]: TBL: both [sorts of complexity] make learning the language harder
15:14:17 [noahm]: q?
15:14:25 [timbl]: q?
15:14:58 [masinter]: and also that 'data' and 'metadata' are really the same
15:15:26 [Ashok]: DC: Do users grok or not .... people pick up RDFa and use it. People dont use microdata
15:15:38 [masinter]: and also that i think the charter of the group and the right answer is that neither RDFa nor data should be part of HTML spec and are out of scope for group's charter, group was charatered to produce extensibility
15:16:07 [Ashok]: Larry: HTML WG was not chartered to do any of this work .... this ought to be out of scope
15:16:34 [johnk]: q+ to ask Larry if he thinks that's true with XHTML changes
15:16:41 [Ashok]: ... area should be able to evelove independently from the HTML language
15:16:43 [timbl]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
15:17:11 [Ashok]: ... HTML is not usually written by humans it is generated from database tools
15:17:38 [Ashok]: ... complicated tool chains
15:18:13 [Ashok]: ... one of the proplems with NSs in that NS-based markup does not cut and paste well
15:18:16 [noahm]: q?
15:18:19 [DanC_lap]: q+ to note sympathy with the "add an extensibility mechanism, not RDFa nor microdata directly" position; GRDDL was based on the head/@profile extensibility mechanism. @profile is not in the current HTML 5 draft, though the issue is open. Not many users of GRDDL are showing up to argue for it, though...
15:18:22 [noahm]: ack masinter
15:18:22 [Zakim]: masinter, you wanted to talk about complexity for tools for generating, ability to mash-up, ability to copy-paste
15:18:24 [masinter]: without moving to dom
15:18:26 [DanC_lap]: ack danc3
15:18:26 [Zakim]: danc3, you wanted to note complexity discussion currently
15:18:30 [noahm]: q?
15:19:01 [timbl]: q+ to say that to have a de-prefixed from for cut and paste woul dbe reasonable.. this works with attributavalues abut not alas with element names. You can for attributes replace the qname with hte full URI In some of these specs.
15:19:19 [Ashok]: DC: There are various threads abt complexity of HTML5. Opportunity to get involved in current discussion
15:19:20 [johnk]: ack next
15:19:21 [Zakim]: johnk, you wanted to ask Larry if he thinks that's true with XHTML changes
15:20:04 [noahm]: q+ to try and focus discussion
15:20:08 [DanC_lap]: Complexity of HTML5 (was Re: The Complexity Argument) Maciej Stachowiak (Sunday, 20 September) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0814.html
15:20:10 [Zakim]: DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time to move on
15:20:18 [Ashok]: JK: Asks abt charter? Shd it still be true given that XHTML is winding down.
15:20:36 [Ashok]: ... there are specific needs to do the extensibility
15:20:55 [DanC_lap]: ack next
15:20:56 [Zakim]: DanC_lap, you wanted to note sympathy with the "add an extensibility mechanism, not RDFa nor microdata directly" position; GRDDL was based on the head/@profile extensibility
15:21:01 [Zakim]: ... mechanism. @profile is not in the current HTML 5 draft, though the issue is open. Not many users of GRDDL are showing up to argue for it, though...
15:21:25 [Ashok]: Larry: W3C shd charter a group on Metadate .... how to add Metadata to HTML
15:22:08 [Ashok]: DC: Talks abt GRDDL as an example
15:22:20 [Ashok]: Tim: Are people using GRDDL?
15:22:47 [johnk]: DC: notes that GRDDL extensibility is achieved by use of the HTML profile attribute
15:23:13 [Ashok]: JAR: There is tools that parse RDF/XML and produces triples
15:23:28 [Ashok]: s/is/are/
15:24:06 [Ashok]: DC: Community not supporive of my suggestions on extensibility
15:24:28 [jar]: s/tools/(this is irrelevant) XSLT/
15:25:10 [noahm]: q?
15:25:18 [Zakim]: DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time to move on
15:25:23 [Ashok]: Tim: Talk abt problem with cut/paste of NS-based markup
15:25:27 [noahm]: ack timbl
15:25:27 [Zakim]: timbl, you wanted to say that to have a de-prefixed from for cut and paste woul dbe reasonable.. this works with attributavalues abut not alas with element names. You can for
15:25:31 [Zakim]: ... attributes replace the qname with hte full URI In some of these specs.
15:26:11 [Ashok]: Tim: Are there oher reasons why people do not like Namespaces
15:26:49 [Ashok]: Noah: We need an Action
15:26:54 [timbl]: More generally, to get more arcs in a motivation graph to elabrate what is on the whiteboard.
15:27:28 [DanC_lap]: timbl, another rationale behind the the "no uri prefix" position is: what happens when you mutate the DOM?
15:27:44 [Ashok]: Larry: The HTML WG has pointed out a flaw in XML and we shd puch back on XML's syntax on Namespaces
15:27:49 [noahm]: q+ to talk about exploring namespaces
15:28:16 [Ashok]: ... TAG could encourage re-examination of Namespaces
15:28:18 [DanC_lap]: ack next
15:28:19 [Zakim]: noahm, you wanted to try and focus discussion and to talk about exploring namespaces
15:28:37 [ht]: q+ to ask LM to expand on "HTML requirements" for XML namespace design
15:28:54 [Ashok]: Noah: Some sympathy but efforts like that may fail
15:29:20 [Ashok]: ... suggests some TAG action
15:29:59 [Ashok]: Noah: Should TAG analyze the situation?
15:30:48 [noahm]: q?
15:30:52 [Ashok]: Larry: The TAG could endorse ongoing work outside and encourage a W3C activity to look into revising Namespaces
15:31:06 [johnk]: q+
15:31:41 [Ashok]: HT: What is the flaw in XML which HTML has called attention to?
15:31:56 [timbl]: DanClap, re "no uri prefix" a reasonable position is that the prefix is just a shorthand, and the DOM is the data model, so the DOM should have the full URI. (Like the RDF model does). It is then a serialization option as o whether you se a prefix shorthand.
15:33:05 [Ashok]: Noah: Problems with Namespaces ... cut and paste problems, typing stuff with namespaces turns out to be harder than typing stuff without
15:33:08 [noahm]: q?
15:33:11 [noahm]: ack ht
15:33:11 [Zakim]: ht, you wanted to ask LM to expand on "HTML requirements" for XML namespace design
15:34:14 [Ashok]: DC: DOM modifications
15:35:01 [Ashok]: JK: Sympathetic to Larry's proposal but we need to do our homework. We shd spaek to people at Ballisage.
15:35:38 [johnk]: s/Ballisage/Balisage/
15:36:00 [Ashok]: Noah: Tries to clarify proposals
15:36:33 [Ashok]: HT: We misunderstood Larry use of the word "endorse".
15:36:57 [Ashok]: Noah: We need to do homework first
15:37:35 [Ashok]: Tim: Reminded of Cambridge Communique time
15:38:25 [Ashok]: Noah: Need specific actions
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15:39:53 [Ashok]: Larry: We could ask XML Core to do some homework
15:40:15 [Ashok]: HT: This would require a charter change
15:40:55 [Ashok]: Noah: Worries about skill set. Needs knowledge of use of Namesapces in different contexts
15:42:05 [Ashok]: HT: Flaws in XML are not addressed by any of these proposals
15:42:09 [johnk]: HT: there are two proposals - i) propose changes to XML Core ii) bring together HTML and XML folks to make a namespace proposal acceptable to both
15:42:47 [Ashok]: HT: Requirements did not have anything to do with HTML
15:43:26 [johnk]: s/there are two proposals/I heard two proposals/
15:44:31 [Ashok]: Larry: HTML WG found that current XML infoset is too difficult for them.
15:44:45 [ht]: s/infoset/infoset serialization/
15:45:34 [Ashok]: ... we shd examine what infoset would meet their needs and also allow distributed extensibility
15:45:35 [timbl]: q+ to narro wthe scope to attributes
15:45:52 [masinter]: there is precedent for W3C working on alternative serializations of XML
15:47:04 [timbl]: q?
15:47:04 [noahm]: q?
15:47:11 [timbl]: ack next
15:47:12 [noahm]: ack johnk
15:47:18 [Ashok]: Larry: This is not a short-term comment to HTML WG. There is some long-term work that W3C shd take up to prevent communities from forking off
15:47:33 [masinter]: this isn't the 'solution', but I am very concerned about W3C endorsing two separate forks of HTML on the one hand and XML on the other, and that perhaps this is 'research', but that the TAG should lead effort toward convergence
15:48:28 [masinter]: i don't want the default answer to be "oh well, i guess they're different, let's just leave them going off in different directions"
15:48:37 [Ashok]: Tim: XML Model, HTML model and RDF model is a triangle. Trying to harmonize may be a mistake. Shd be arms-lenghth relationaship
15:49:25 [Ashok]: Tim: Narrow the scope to attribute names
15:49:52 [timbl]: No!
15:50:06 [timbl]: Narrow the scope to attribute values, not attribute or element names
15:50:11 [Ashok]: Noah: Please type possible actions into IRC log
15:50:46 [johnk]: I am suggesting that I talk to those who went to Balisage, and ask what was discussed regarding the namespace-focused work there, and report back to TAG
15:50:52 [timbl]: In other words like µdata and RDFa, use the *ML DOM as it is and putthings in the attribute values.
15:51:13 [DanC_lap]: maybe invite advocates of a few of the positions tbl put on the board (see "blobs" above) to a TAG meeting to discuss them.
15:51:14 [timbl]: +1 to jihnk
15:51:21 [timbl]: +! to JohnK anyway
15:51:26 [masinter]: i suggest johnk also float the idea of further work specifically on this, and that we ask also HT to explore the questions with XMLCore
15:52:21 [masinter]: i suggest the tag also put out a position that we would like to see work in this area
15:53:18 [noahm]: Larry offers to take action to draft message that the TAG will endorse
15:54:35 [timbl]: q+
15:55:19 [masinter]: possibility of coming up with a new serialization of infoset, which would be acceptable to HTML community, please explore
15:55:30 [Ashok]: HT: Larry phrased a new serialzation of the Infoset . I can ask XMLCore. Asking them to chamge XML would be much more contentious
15:56:15 [masinter]: "please ask the XMLCore group what in this area they would be willing to do, and what prerequisites they would have"
15:57:06 [masinter]: i propose Henry do what I just typed
15:57:23 [masinter]: s/have/have for doing it/
15:57:46 [Ashok]: Noah: Will you take an action to come back to TAG with a proposal for whether and how TAG shd interact with XML Core re. Infoset serialization
15:58:01 [masinter]: s/this area/the area of meeting HTML's requirements/
15:59:47 [masinter]: s/meeting/discovering and meeting/
15:59:47 [Ashok]: HT: I don't know what HTML's requirements are
16:00:16 [Ashok]: Tim: Too vague ....
16:00:33 [Ashok]: HT: I will think about that
16:01:52 [johnk]: ACTION John to talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize
16:01:52 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-313 - Talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize [on John Kemp - due 2009-10-02].
16:02:53 [Ashok]: DC: Anyone volunteers to get the concerned players together?
16:03:27 [Ashok]: JK: I can ask the Balisage players
16:04:05 [johnk]: DC: That's not who I meant
16:04:29 [Ashok]: HT: No, the players for the consitituencies on the board
16:05:20 [Ashok]: Suggestions: invite Ben Adida, Manu
16:06:02 [Ashok]: Larry: Possibility of meeting at TPAC?
16:06:45 [Ashok]: BREAK for LUNCH
16:06:58 [Ashok]: Reconvene at 1:15 PM
16:31:44 [timbl]: timbl has joined #tagmem
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17:18:52 [timbl]: timbl has joined #tagmem
17:21:44 [jar]: scribe: jar
17:22:53 [jar]: dan does wed cleanup
17:23:04 [jar]: ht does thu cleanup
17:23:18 [jar]: jar does fri minutes cleanup
17:23:46 [jar]: noah will collate / link all minutes
17:24:02 [jar]: Reconvening.
17:24:33 [ht]: TV, dial in to discuss next meeting, please?
17:24:36 [ht]: Raman?
17:24:40 [ht]: T.V.?
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17:25:06 [timbl]: People in the room wave to Raman.
17:25:07 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, agenda?
17:25:07 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:25:08 [Zakim]: 6. TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings) [from DanC_lap]
17:25:10 [Zakim]: 2. HTML [from DanC_lap]
17:25:10 [Zakim]: 4. Javascript Security [from DanC_lap]
17:25:11 [Zakim]: 5. TPAC distributed extensibility [from DanC_lap]
17:25:12 [Zakim]: 7. writing session [from DanC_lap]
17:25:14 [Zakim]: 8. TAG priorities [from DanC_lap]
17:25:15 [Zakim]: 9. HTML, URIs, Error handling [from DanC_lap]
17:25:16 [Zakim]: 11. URL terminology [from jar via DanC_lap]
17:25:23 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, next item
17:25:23 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC_lap
17:25:30 [jar]: noah: admin review. note, membership is turning over a bit
17:25:46 [jar]: ht: All please think about who should stand for membership
17:25:52 [DanC_lap]: queue=
17:25:55 [DanC_lap]: Zakim, next item
17:25:55 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings)" taken up [from DanC_lap]
17:27:00 [jar]: noah: Future meetings: TPAC and Dec 8-10
17:27:18 [jar]: Dec 8-10 will be at MIT again
17:28:53 [DanC_lap]: (anybody want to offer, here in IRC, to host a meeting? at least tentatively?)
17:29:43 [jar]: After that: An idea: co-locate TAG and IETF, Anaheim, March ?
17:30:38 [jar]: AC meeting is at MIT Mar 21-23
17:33:12 [jar]: Mar 21-23 is Sun-Tue. LM proposes TAG just before that
17:33:32 [jar]: ... more discussion of meeting planning ...
17:38:39 [amy]: amy has joined #tagmem
17:39:01 [jar]: Noah: MIT Mar 17-19 ?
17:39:13 [jar]: ashok: too early to tell
17:39:29 [jar]: (no one is saying they can't make that)
17:40:05 [jar]: Passed - subject to possible future modification - but for now let's plan on MIT Mar 17-19
17:40:29 [jar]: RESOLVED: TAG F2F, MIT, Mar 17-19
17:41:20 [jar]: action on noah Check with Amy on room availability and suggest to Ian that he mention this meeting in TAG election call for nominations
17:41:20 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - on
17:41:47 [jar]: ACTION noah Check with Amy on room availability and suggest to Ian that he mention this meeting in TAG election call for nominations
17:41:48 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-314 - Check with Amy on room availability and suggest to Ian that he mention this meeting in TAG election call for nominations [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-10-02].
17:41:48 [noahm]: Who will be @ TPAC
17:42:25 [noahm]: Henry, Dan, Ashok, Larry
17:42:31 [noahm]: Regrets: John and Jonathan
17:42:40 [noahm]: and Tim
17:43:06 [jar]: noahm: We will meet Mon am, Fri am; available to meet with other WGs at other times
17:43:45 [jar]: noah: We used to have TAG progress reports, that stopped at some point, any interest now? (probably not)
17:44:06 [jar]: noah: Any WGs we want to reach out to?
17:44:26 [jar]: noah: The meeting at plenary in France was really good
17:45:00 [jar]: ACTION DanC to follow up on best plan for HTML / TPAC
17:45:00 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-315 - Follow up on best plan for HTML / TPAC [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-10-02].
17:45:21 [amy]: i confirm I've reserved space for 17 March in G449 (Kiva); 18 March in room 346 (Kiva and Star were not available) and on 19 March in G449 (Kiva)
17:45:31 [ht]: Amy ++
17:45:36 [jar]: DanC: Re ECMA, Sam suggested Friday, but there was a conflict
17:45:58 [jar]: noah: Meet separately with ECMA folks?
17:47:32 [jar]: jar has left #tagmem
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17:48:06 [jar]: jar has joined #tagmem
17:48:08 [jar]: hello
17:48:50 [amy]: amy has joined #tagmem
17:50:02 [jar]: lm: primary discussion around ecma is around process, as much around technical work. we can make ourselves available of course
17:50:27 [DanC_]: DanC_ has joined #tagmem
17:50:41 [amy]: amy has left #tagmem
17:50:44 [jar]: action-310
17:50:45 [DanC_]: action-310?
17:50:45 [trackbot]: ACTION-310 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check with Sam Ruby on ECMA/W3C activities at TPAC -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
17:50:45 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/310
17:51:34 [jar]: zakim, agenda?
17:51:34 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:51:35 [Zakim]: 6. TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings) [from DanC_lap]
17:51:38 [Zakim]: 4. Javascript Security [from DanC_lap]
17:51:39 [Zakim]: 5. TPAC distributed extensibility [from DanC_lap]
17:51:41 [Zakim]: 7. writing session [from DanC_lap]
17:51:42 [Zakim]: 8. TAG priorities [from DanC_lap]
17:51:43 [Zakim]: 9. HTML, URIs, Error handling [from DanC_lap]
17:51:44 [Zakim]: 11. URL terminology [from jar via DanC_lap]
17:52:18 [DanC_]: Zakim, close item 6
17:52:18 [Zakim]: agendum 6, TAG admin (TPAC logistics, future meetings), closed
17:52:19 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:52:21 [Zakim]: 4. Javascript Security [from DanC_lap]
17:53:07 [DanC_]: Zakim, take up item 8
17:53:07 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "TAG priorities" taken up [from DanC_lap]
17:54:17 [jar]: sort actions by owner
17:54:18 [DanC_]: action-116?
17:54:18 [trackbot]: ACTION-116 -- Tim Berners-Lee to align the tabulator internal vocabulary with the vocabulary in the rules http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to either as needed. -- due 2009-08-01 -- OPEN
17:54:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/116
17:55:05 [DanC_]: action-116 due 1 Dec
17:55:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-116 Align the tabulator internal vocabulary with the vocabulary in the rules http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to either as needed. due date now 1 Dec
17:55:06 [jar]: Timbl: It's good to be reminded of it
17:55:38 [DanC_]: close action-24
17:55:38 [trackbot]: ACTION-24 clarify http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri , perhaps by using N3 closed
17:56:05 [jar]: timbl: (refers to new IRI spec drafts)
17:56:08 [DanC_]: action-24: withdrawn in Cambridge. TBL suggests LMM consider stuff in this area
17:56:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-24 clarify http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri , perhaps by using N3 notes added
17:56:16 [Ashok]: Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:56:23 [jar]: lm: The new drafts should not influence whatever action is implied by this action item
17:57:08 [jar]: timbl: Would like to drop it.
17:57:42 [DanC_]: close action-24
17:57:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-24 clarify http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri , perhaps by using N3 closed
17:58:20 [jar]: Dan's actions:
17:58:41 [jar]: ACTION-307?
17:58:41 [trackbot]: ACTION-307 -- Dan Connolly to raise issue of work items moving between W3C working groups and also with IETF -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
17:58:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/307
17:59:08 [jar]: lm: This is a process issue, I don't think it's finished
17:59:28 [jar]: lm: Hypertext coordination group might take this on?
17:59:49 [jar]: danc: If I don't get this done today I don't want to carry it
18:00:08 [jar]: action-299?
18:00:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-299 -- Dan Connolly to notify the TAG when the HTML WG gets closer to closing issue-4 html-versioning -- due 2009-09-10 -- OPEN
18:00:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/299
18:00:23 [DanC_]: action-299 due 15 Oct
18:00:23 [trackbot]: ACTION-299 Notify the TAG when the HTML WG gets closer to closing issue-4 html-versioning due date now 15 Oct
18:01:08 [jar]: action-295
18:01:16 [jar]: action-295 due is 1 week
18:01:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-295 Monitor geolocation response to IETF GEOPRIV comments on last call and report to the TAG due date now is 1 week
18:01:25 [jar]: danc: Discussion is out of order
18:02:36 [jar]: ... of the actions that is
18:03:27 [jar]: danc: (Generally, not action) HTML validation software dev work that I might do
18:04:06 [jar]: (danc was addressing JAR's request to hear from everyone re tag work they planned for this fall)
18:04:26 [jar]: action-308?
18:04:27 [trackbot]: ACTION-308 -- John Kemp to propose updates to Authoritative Metadata and Self-Describing Web to acknowledge the reality of sniffing, due 2009-10-20 -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
18:04:27 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/308
18:04:55 [jar]: action-308 due 20 october
18:04:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-308 Propose updates to Authoritative Metadata and Self-Describing Web to acknowledge the reality of sniffing, due 2009-10-20 due date now 20 october
18:05:09 [jar]: lm: i don't like this action. you should refuse to do it
18:05:26 [jar]: danc: Out of order
18:05:33 [jar]: action-313?
18:05:33 [trackbot]: ACTION-313 -- John Kemp to talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize -- due 2009-10-02 -- OPEN
18:05:33 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/313
18:05:40 [jar]: action-313 due 20 october
18:05:40 [trackbot]: ACTION-313 Talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize due date now 20 october
18:05:43 [DanC_]: action-313 due 20 Oct
18:05:43 [trackbot]: ACTION-313 Talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize due date now 20 Oct
18:05:54 [jar]: action-281?
18:05:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-281 -- Ashok Malhotra to keep an eye on progress of link header draft, report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) -- due 2009-10-30 -- OPEN
18:05:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/281
18:06:02 [jar]: ashok: ongoing
18:06:24 [jar]: action-304?
18:06:24 [trackbot]: ACTION-304 -- Larry Masinter to draft summary of the larger issue -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
18:06:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/304
18:07:01 [jar]: noah: This is worth pursuing; need to look at minutes to see what it's about
18:07:39 [jar]: johnk: This was about the references in the HTML spec. HT had one action, LM suggested there was a larger issue around references
18:08:46 [jar]: action-304 due in one week
18:08:46 [trackbot]: ACTION-304 Draft summary of the larger issue due date now in one week
18:09:00 [jar]: johnk: What the web platform looks like.
18:09:20 [jar]: lm: I remember - I was going to add it to the versioning document
18:09:49 [noahm]: action-304?
18:09:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-304 -- Larry Masinter to larger around Web Platform Definition regarding references in HTML 5 document -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
18:09:49 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/304
18:09:49 [masinter]: regarding the definition of the 'web platform' with regard to specs defined in the HTML5 document
18:10:28 [jar]: action-action-306?
18:10:33 [jar]: action-306?
18:10:33 [trackbot]: ACTION-306 -- Larry Masinter to work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
18:10:33 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/306
18:10:44 [masinter]: the general idea is that the web platform consists of a set of interfaces, HTML, DOM, URI, RDF, images, etc., and that an overall spec defining the platform should then make reference to versionless versions of specs and alternatives
18:10:52 [jar]: close action-306
18:10:53 [trackbot]: ACTION-306 Work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings closed
18:11:08 [jar]: reopen action-306
18:11:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-306 Work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings re-opened
18:11:26 [jar]: ashok: Let's meet at the end of next month
18:11:33 [DanC_]: action-306: this is a follow-on action
18:11:33 [trackbot]: ACTION-306 Work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings notes added
18:11:38 [DanC_]: action-306?
18:11:38 [jar]: noah: Please annotate the action in tracker?
18:11:38 [trackbot]: ACTION-306 -- Larry Masinter to work with JK and AM to update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG meetings -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
18:11:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/306
18:12:06 [jar]: action-311?
18:12:06 [trackbot]: ACTION-311 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of a persistent domain name policy promotion -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
18:12:06 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/311
18:12:59 [jar]: ht: This was to follow up on Tim's plea to do something about persistence of w3.org or persistent domains generally
18:13:10 [jar]: [well that's not exactly what henry said.]
18:13:48 [DanC_]: action-311: tbl notes http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/PersistentDomains
18:13:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-311 Schedule discussion of a persistent domain name policy promotion notes added
18:14:01 [jar]: action-285 due in 2 weeks
18:14:01 [trackbot]: ACTION-285 Make sure TPAC logistics are straight due date now in 2 weeks
18:14:15 [DanC_]: action-285?
18:14:15 [trackbot]: ACTION-285 -- Noah Mendelsohn to make sure TPAC logistics are straight -- due 2009-09-25 -- OPEN
18:14:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/285
18:14:20 [jar]: action-292?
18:14:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-292 -- Noah Mendelsohn to alert group to review HTML Authoring Drafts [trivial] [self-assigned] -- due 2009-10-13 -- OPEN
18:14:20 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/292
18:15:15 [jar]: noah will schedule discussion on this
18:15:18 [jar]: action-284?
18:15:18 [trackbot]: ACTION-284 -- Jonathan Rees to flesh out the Web Application ( http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/06/webAppsTOC.html ) outline with as many sentences as he can -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
18:15:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/284
18:15:35 [DanC_]: ACTION-292: LMM notes Mike Smith's HTML spec is relevant
18:15:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-292 Alert group to review HTML Authoring Drafts [trivial] [self-assigned] notes added
18:15:42 [jar]: close action-284
18:15:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-284 Flesh out the Web Application ( http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/06/webAppsTOC.html ) outline with as many sentences as he can closed
18:17:10 [jar]: awwsw is talking about tag dec f2f as a 'delivery date'
18:17:42 [jar]: action-312 due 1 december
18:17:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-312 Find a path thru the specs that I think contradicts Dan's reading of webarch due date now 1 december
18:17:57 [jar]: action-312 due in one week
18:17:57 [trackbot]: ACTION-312 Find a path thru the specs that I think contradicts Dan's reading of webarch due date now in one week
18:18:16 [jar]: action-201 due on 1 december
18:18:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-201 Report on status of AWWSW discussions due date now on 1 december
18:18:49 [jar]: action-278 due 15 october
18:18:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-278 Draft changes to 2.7 of Metadata in URIs to cover the "Google Calendar" case due date now 15 october
18:19:22 [DanC_]: action-282: jar says this is his project for the fall
18:19:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-282 Draft a finding on metadata architecture. notes added
18:19:57 [jar]: action-33 due 15 october
18:19:57 [trackbot]: ACTION-33 revise naming challenges story in response to Dec 2008 F2F discussion due date now 15 october
18:20:47 [DanC_]: (larry, is there a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg?)
18:21:14 [jar]: action-232 due in 4 days
18:21:14 [trackbot]: ACTION-232 Follow-up to Hausenblas once there's a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg due date now in 4 days
18:21:25 [masinter]: (DanC, my proposed revision hasn't been incorporated yet)
18:21:47 [DanC_]: (tx)
18:22:02 [jar]: action-232 due on 29 september
18:22:02 [trackbot]: ACTION-232 Follow-up to Hausenblas once there's a draft of HTTPbis which has advice on conneg due date now on 29 september
18:22:38 [masinter]: danc http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2009JulSep/0792.html
18:22:54 [jar]: action-163 due 31 october
18:22:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog due date now 31 october
18:25:17 [jar]: discussion of action-295
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18:32:12 [jar]: noah: Back to the spreadsheet
18:32:28 [jar]: HTMLIssues.xls
18:32:43 [jar]: [need a hyperlink to that]
18:33:02 [jar]: topic: HTML issue: mime-type
18:33:08 [masinter]: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2854
18:33:29 [jar]: lm: RFC2854 is current definition of text/html. written by lm and danc
18:33:42 [timbl]: timbl has joined #tagmem
18:33:49 [noahm]: Wonder if we should clarify that topic is "text/html" mime type
18:34:14 [jar]: ... history ... mime types are allocated by IETF. Registration at top level requires IETF consensus
18:34:40 [jar]: ... you designate a change controller. for text/html, it's W3C
18:34:55 [jar]: ... I assume that means rec, not a WG last call
18:35:05 [DanC_]: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2854.txt The 'text/html' Media Type
18:35:31 [jar]: ... The proposal in HTML5 is to replace registration with something *not* including any history [background]
18:36:05 [jar]: ... anything you 'should' need to know is contained in the reg, anything else is a bug
18:36:27 [jar]: noah: What is typical?
18:36:31 [jar]: danc: There be dragons
18:36:55 [jar]: lm: It's typical to include history, making updates less of an issue
18:37:31 [jar]: ... One reason given is to revoke the permission to serve XML-expressed HTML as text/html
18:37:47 [jar]: noah: Breaks our agendas and minutes?
18:38:03 [jar]: danc: Probably not, since they match the syntax and semantics of HTML5
18:38:34 [jar]: timbl: The notion that there is an XML language that is an HTML language is important as a matter of principle
18:39:01 [jar]: ... and that you can serve it as text/html
18:39:28 [jar]: noah: The new spec correctly interprets [XHTML] content
18:39:35 [jar]: lm: (no...)
18:39:54 [masinter]: q+ the purpose of a mime type is to tell the receiver what the sender intended when the sender sent the message with the mime type label
18:40:02 [masinter]: q+ to say the purpose of a mime type is to tell the receiver what the sender intended when the sender sent the message with the mime type label
18:40:14 [jar]: noah: You shouldn't take stuff that's widely deployed and break it
18:40:23 [jar]: danc: Depends on what you consider 'widely deployed'
18:40:50 [jar]: lm: Purpose of mime type is give an out of band description of what the sender intended
18:41:10 [jar]: ... It's not normative, it indicates intent
18:42:01 [jar]: noah: Self-describing web has a story about answering the question "did so and so serve a document x that can be interpreted according to such and such interpretation rules" (jar's paraphrase)
18:42:41 [jar]: lm: E.g. the profile attribute of head isn't in html5.
18:42:57 [jar]: Receiver has no clue what the sender might have meant by a profile attribute.
18:43:23 [jar]: If the mime type registration doesn't give history, receiver doesn't have a chance.
18:43:38 [jar]: danc: There is some former-features explanation
18:44:10 [jar]: timbl: Safest thing to do might be to make a historical RFC...
18:44:37 [jar]: (someone:) how would that help follow your nose?
18:45:41 [jar]: ht: At the moment we have hearsay, can we have some references? Nothing in the July draft that looks like a mime type registration... up to date reference?
18:46:34 [DanC_]: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#iana-considerations
18:46:46 [DanC_]: 12.1 text/html
18:48:28 [ht]: What's the issue number for discussion of this?
18:48:32 [jar]: [scribe notes that this is not a dated file. may change]
18:49:48 [raman]: raman has left #tagmem
18:49:51 [jar]: timbl: Bold and emphasized text - that must be a funny story
18:50:57 [jar]: ht: You're now no longer allowed to serve some xml with this label. The question is whether reinterpreting as html changes the document in any visible way
18:51:04 [masinter]: there were 5 different specifications and languages and mulitiple implementations that the previous RFC made reference to... these languages were more or less coherent and correlated. Writing the history of each element piece by piece is not the same
18:51:26 [jar]: danc: table with tr right underneath it - tbody gets implicitly added by html at parse time - so different dom
18:52:04 [DanC_]: (hmm... looking for a historical explanation of head/@profile, I don't see that, but I see "must not be used by authors" with what to do instead; it says "unnecessary; omit it altogether, and register the names.")
18:52:23 [jar]: lm: there used to be many html versions... the fact that someone might meant one of those is lost when you chop it up feature by feature. you lose the sense that someone was using a particular dialect (language version).
18:52:46 [jar]: lm: The intent is to outlaw declarations that a document is HTML 4 (etc)
18:53:35 [jar]: lm: Rewriting history is absurd. That's what I think the TAG response should be
18:54:05 [jar]: ht: Is there any precedent for this? Has something like this happened before?
18:56:37 [ht]: ACTION Henry S. to draft for tag@w3.org proposed TAG feedback on the text/html media type registration in the 25 September draft of HTML5
18:56:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-316 - S. to draft for tag@w3.org proposed TAG feedback on the text/html media type registration in the 25 September draft of HTML5 [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2009-10-02].
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19:02:18 [masinter]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1184.html
19:03:09 [masinter]: ... The main thing that needs updating is the removal of the permission for sending syntactic profiles of XML as text/html. In addition, the encoding considerations, fragment identifier definition, and the text about recognising HTML documents are somewhat out of date and can be significantly improved by referencing HTML5 now. RFC2854 is quite vague in a number of areas, also, which can be cleaned up with an update.
19:07:57 [jar]: Thomas Roessler is joining us.
19:08:04 [noahm]: The chair thanks Thomas Roessler for joining us on short notice.
19:08:26 [jar]: item: Geopriv
19:09:14 [jar]: lm: I'm interested in current status. I met with Eve in Stockhom, area directors, what is the IETF and Cisco and CDT response?
19:09:34 [jar]: tr: I'm not the team contact, this info may be outdated...
19:09:54 [jar]: ... Comment was sent by IETF chair
19:10:07 [jar]: ... "We are working on the comments, something will be given"
19:10:16 [jar]: ... AFAIK they just haven't answered yet
19:10:43 [DanC_]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2009Aug/0016.html "We're working on drafting formal responses to the Last Call comments we
19:10:43 [DanC_]: have received.
19:10:43 [DanC_]: Unfortunately due to vacations this has been taking a bit longer than we
19:10:43 [DanC_]: had expected, but we will have them ready soon."
19:30:18 [johnk]: DanC: I agree with this: Most well-intentioned sites,
19:30:18 [johnk]: and _all_ evil sites (the ones where privacy leakage is an issue in the
19:30:18 [johnk]: first place) would just ignore the user's requests
19:30:53 [johnk]: (and evil sites can just put their own code in there to ensure that the user's information _is_ leaked)
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19:42:42 [DanC_]: suggestion: we've looked at the technical issues and a little bit of the policy issues, and come to the conclusion that there are several coherent designs and none of them critically in conflict with web architecture. Maybe let's action somebody to take the remaining liaison/process issues to the IETF/W3C liaison forum or something.
19:45:48 [DanC_]: (re orthogonality... the device API WG seems likely to persue that approach)
19:47:53 [johnk]: such as http://www.w3.org/2009/policy-ws/cfp.html ?
19:51:06 [johnk]: http://www.w3.org/2008/security-ws/report#PolicyDescription
19:56:21 [jar]: rrsagent, make logs public
20:06:10 [jar]: Adjourned until next time.
20:10:07 [jar]: zakim, who is here?
20:10:07 [Zakim]: apparently TAG_f2f()9:00AM has ended, jar
20:10:08 [Zakim]: On IRC I see jar, masinter, noahm, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, trackbot, noah
20:24:47 [jar]: rrsagent, pointer?
20:24:48 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/25-tagmem-irc#T20-24-47
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