19:22:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
19:22:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/22-ws-ra-irc
19:22:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:22:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ws-ra
19:22:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:22:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
19:22:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:22:14 <trackbot> Date: 22 September 2009
19:22:31 <Yves> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Sep/0072.html
19:24:53 <li> li has joined #ws-ra
19:25:46 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
19:25:53 <Zakim> +li
19:26:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:26:49 <Bob> Bob has joined #ws-ra
19:27:01 <Zakim> + +039331574aaaa
19:27:08 <Bob> trackbot, start telecon
19:27:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:27:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:27:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
19:27:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:27:13 <trackbot> Date: 22 September 2009
19:27:40 <Zakim> +Bob_Freund
19:29:02 <dug> dug has joined #ws-ra
19:29:10 <Zakim> +Doug_Davis
19:29:17 <Zakim> +gpilz
19:29:39 <asoldano> Hi there
19:30:17 <Tom_Rutt> Tom_Rutt has joined #ws-ra
19:30:33 <Bob> chair: Bob Freund
19:30:45 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
19:31:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
19:31:34 <Zakim> + +1.571.262.aabb
19:32:00 <fmaciel> fmaciel has joined #ws-ra
19:32:02 <Ram> Ram has joined #ws-ra
19:32:03 <Zakim> + +0208234aacc
19:32:12 <Vikas> Vikas has joined #ws-ra
19:32:37 <Zakim> + +1.408.970.aadd
19:32:44 <dug> zakim who is making noise?
19:32:57 <Katy> Katy has joined #ws-ra
19:33:03 <Zakim> +Yves
19:33:15 <Bob> zakim ses nobody making noise now that they have muted
19:33:55 <dug> zakim, who is making noise?
19:34:07 <Zakim> dug, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Freund (59%), +1.571.262.aabb (46%)
19:34:26 <dug> tons of static Vikas
19:34:45 <Zakim> +??P11
19:34:47 <Vikas> Muted
19:36:01 <Bob> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Sep/0072.html
19:37:00 <DaveS> DaveS has joined #ws-ra
19:37:19 <Bob> scribe: Li Li
19:37:29 <Bob> scribenick: LI
19:37:50 <asoldano> yes, I'm here
19:38:17 <asoldano> Bob, I'm on the phone
19:38:27 <dug> Alessio, are you muted?
19:38:32 <asoldano> perhaps I'm muted, let me check
19:38:45 <dug> mary had a little lamb...
19:39:31 <Bob> Alessio, there is an audio issue, we can't hear you
19:39:35 <asoldano> I tried 60#
19:39:40 <asoldano> but I think I'm still muted
19:39:48 <asoldano> 039 is Italy, yes
19:39:49 <asoldano> sure
19:39:52 <asoldano> I can here you
19:40:24 <dug> zakim, umute asoldano
19:40:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute asoldano', dug
19:40:29 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra
19:40:33 <dug> zakim, unmute asoldano
19:40:33 <Zakim> sorry, dug, I do not know which phone connection belongs to asoldano
19:41:03 <asoldano> OK, let me try to redial
19:41:08 <Zakim> - +039331574aaaa
19:41:25 <gpilz> that's ok, most of us only communicate unidirectionally in any case
19:41:27 <li> TOPIC: agenda
19:41:30 <dug> LOL
19:41:38 <li> agenda agreed
19:41:40 <Zakim> + +039331574aaee
19:41:52 <li> TOPIC: approval of minutes
19:42:18 <li> bob: minutes approved
19:42:27 <li> TOPIC: f2f next week
19:42:31 <Zakim> - +039331574aaee
19:42:47 <Bob> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43088/HursleyDinner/
19:43:19 <li> bob: complete it by tomorrow
19:43:41 <Ram> q+
19:43:56 <li> bob: discuss next f2f in santa clara
19:44:06 <Bob> ack ram
19:44:29 <asoldano> sorry, I've phone issues, joining again in few sec
19:44:46 <li> ram: publishe fpwd by friday?
19:44:55 <li> yves: will try
19:45:42 <li> TOPIC: schedule
19:45:43 <Zakim> + +039331574aaff
19:46:44 <dug> q+
19:46:49 <li> TOPIC: AI reviews
19:46:57 <Bob> ack dug
19:47:07 <li> bob: anything can't be done by next f2f?
19:47:45 <asir> q+
19:48:01 <Katy> q+
19:48:04 <Bob> ack asir
19:48:38 <li> asir: ask dug if it's possible to send out proposal this week
19:48:42 <li> dug: i think so
19:49:16 <Zakim> + +0759029aagg
19:49:21 <Zakim> -??P11
19:49:32 <li> asir: ai 94 is being worked on by me, we'll take over ai from geoff
19:49:36 <Bob> ack katy
19:50:12 <li> katy: 61
19:50:22 <li> TOPIC: ws-frag
19:50:51 <Yves> dug, mail sent (re AI on x-links)
19:50:57 <dug> thanks
19:51:18 <li> ram: details not ready for f2f
19:51:48 <li> ram: by the end of this week
19:52:07 <li> TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7698
19:53:07 <li> issue opened
19:53:37 <li> bob: any objection to the proposal in the issue?
19:54:07 <li> ram: looks fine
19:54:13 <asoldano> fine to me
19:54:34 <li> bob: no objection and resolved as proposed
19:54:56 <li> TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7426 
19:56:33 <li> yves: iri is not used in xml namespace, as pointed out by asir
19:56:37 <dug> q+
19:56:53 <Bob> proposal is to use IRI for everything but namespaces
19:56:54 <li> bob: use iri in everything except namespace?
19:57:03 <Bob> ack dug
19:57:37 <li> dug: ws-a bounced between IRI and URI
19:57:58 <li> ...concrete strings are URI but generic ones are IRI
19:58:09 <li> ...what is the pattern for us?
19:58:43 <li> bob: use IRI for everything but namespace and literal strings
19:58:46 <asir> q+
19:58:59 <Bob> ack asir
19:59:24 <li> asir: URI is also IRI, we can do a global replacement
19:59:33 <li> dug: i'm still confused
19:59:57 <li> dug: why the exception?
20:00:36 <dug> The working group intends to update the value of the Web Services Eventing namespace URI each...
20:00:51 <li> bob: use IRI to permit localization
20:01:14 <li> ...otherwise we stick to URI
20:02:03 <li> dug: namespace URI -> URI, so it's not global change
20:02:48 <li> asir: someone needs to make a line-by-line change
20:04:00 <li> bob: we have to give either detail changes or instructions to editors
20:04:04 <gpilz> q+
20:04:15 <li> dug: i like line-by-line changes
20:04:16 <Yves> I can do this on friday
20:04:20 <Bob> ack gpil
20:05:16 <li> bob: prefer line-by-line changes
20:05:41 <Yves> ACTION: Yves to produce a line-by-line diff for issue 7426
20:05:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Produce a line-by-line diff for issue 7426 [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-09-29].
20:05:51 <li> thanks
20:06:29 <li> TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7478
20:06:39 <Bob> proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Sep/0027.html
20:06:52 <dug> zakim, who is making noise?
20:07:08 <dug> ah, sorry, didn't know it was you gil  :-)
20:07:12 <Zakim> dug, listening for 17 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Freund (2%), gpilz (97%)
20:07:20 <li> gil: explain the proposal
20:09:34 <li> ...it is about negotiating durations
20:09:41 <DaveS> q+
20:09:50 <li> ...it's simple and efficient
20:10:06 <Bob> ack dave
20:10:37 <li> daves: subcription is cut down to yes/no
20:11:02 <li> ...more intelligent source can put hint in the response
20:11:27 <li> ...how to make response clear
20:11:31 <Ram> q+
20:11:42 <Bob> ack ram
20:12:18 <li> ram: proposal is technical correct, but compatibility is an issue
20:12:48 <gpilz> q+
20:13:03 <li> ...developers should code against failures
20:13:59 <li> ...subscriber should be able to negotiate in different situations
20:14:59 <DaveS> q+
20:15:00 <dug> q+
20:15:32 <li> ...we need to provide right guidance to developers
20:15:50 <Bob> ack gpi
20:15:55 <li> ...this proposal doesn't help with practical issues
20:16:11 <asir> [Gil's voice is not clear on the phone
20:16:20 <Ram> Gil: Your voice quality is not audible.
20:17:18 <asoldano> the same here unfortunately
20:17:28 <li> gil: in system integration, event sink needs to count on event source
20:18:11 <dug> q-
20:18:26 <Bob> ack dave
20:18:29 <li> ...[not audible]
20:19:09 <li> daves: incompatibilty 1: failure to provde feedback
20:19:21 <dug> q+
20:19:47 <li> incompatibilty 2: provide feedback in failure
20:20:14 <li> ...3: complicated protocol and policy 
20:20:37 <li> ...gil's is in the middle ground
20:20:55 <Ram> q+
20:21:07 <li> ...optional framework for policy later on?
20:21:15 <Bob> ack ram
20:21:28 <gpilz> q+
20:21:40 <li> ram: need to deal with device comp. issue
20:22:31 <li> ...feedback from users on back comp. issues
20:23:32 <li> ram: is not back comp. issue, rather to avoid mistakes by developers
20:23:43 <li> bob: specific changes?
20:24:18 <li> ram: i sent some response today, event source should decide duration, 
20:24:21 <DaveS> q+
20:24:59 <Bob> ack dug
20:25:01 <li> ...i can live with subscriber having an option to indicate hint
20:25:16 <Ram> q+
20:25:34 <li> dug: there are cases subscriber can indicate a hint or not a hint
20:26:10 <li> ...can we have both, instead of just one?
20:26:44 <dug> bob I'd like to respond to what he just said
20:26:51 <gpilz> go ahead
20:26:57 <li> ram: you are optimizing protocol to avoid unsubscribe
20:27:05 <DaveS> q-
20:27:17 <Bob> ack ram
20:27:20 <li> ...what is broken?
20:27:33 <li> gil: yield to dug
20:28:19 <li> dug: lightweight situation can create/delete subscription at will, 
20:28:32 <li> but other situation this is expensive
20:29:01 <li> ...so we need to indicate "i really want"
20:29:01 <Bob> ack gp
20:29:27 <li> gil: device and enterprise people are talking across..
20:29:40 <DaveS> q+
20:30:12 <li> ...we need to support both cases
20:30:14 <Bob> ack dave
20:30:23 <Ram> q+
20:31:43 <li> daves: gil's proposal covers ram's concern by not puting duration in request
20:31:59 <Bob> ack ram
20:32:11 <gpilz>     A Subscriber MAY indicate that it is willing to accept a     Subscription with any expiration time by omitting this element from     the Subscribe request. 
20:32:20 <li> ram: we're making leap of faith...
20:32:42 <gpilz> (the above is a part of the description of the optional /wse:Expirese element)
20:32:47 <gpilz> q+
20:33:08 <DaveS> Ohh!?
20:33:31 <DaveS> Ooops I sat on the keyboard.
20:33:34 <dug> LOL
20:33:39 <li> ...flexiblity is needed to interop
20:33:52 <li> ...let's talk more usecases in the f2f 
20:34:12 <dug> q+
20:34:22 <li> ...i'd like to know what is your use cases...
20:34:57 <li> ..we shouldn't loose interop between device and enterprise worlds
20:35:22 <li> ...what's wrong with current spec?
20:35:44 <Bob> ack gpi
20:35:53 <Bob> Asir, I hear hin well
20:36:28 <dug> there's also no guarantee that Renew will be accepted later on
20:36:29 <li> gil: hint doesn't provide value to sink, if the time is cut off
20:36:33 <asir> we have difficulty hearing there is a lot of background noise
20:37:03 <DaveS> Dave agrees with Gil. A hint is the same as providing no duration at all. 
20:37:29 <Bob> ack gpi
20:37:29 <li> ...[in audible mostly]
20:37:39 <Bob> ack dug
20:38:08 <li> dug: 2 issue with current spec: 1 cost of unsubscribe, 2 no guarantee on renew
20:38:40 <Ram> q+
20:38:46 <gpilz> katy what number do you use to dial into W3C?
20:38:56 <li> ...why isn't your requirement not supported by proposal
20:39:11 <li> ram: i have the same question to dug
20:39:28 <dug> q+
20:40:17 <li> ...current spec is not burdening event source.
20:40:30 <Katy> Gil - number is +441173706152
20:40:40 <li> ...current spec works in many different environments
20:40:46 <Bob> ack dug
20:40:48 <Bob> ack ram
20:41:02 <li> dug: which use cases are not supported?
20:41:19 <li> ram: i'm lost at what you try to solve
20:41:48 <li> dug: what use case not supported
20:42:20 <li> ram: not about technical content of proposal
20:42:38 <li> ...but on what's goal of the proposal
20:42:54 <li> bob: how would you modify it?
20:43:23 <li> ram: i'll take another stab at it
20:43:43 <li> bob: it's about deployment, correct?
20:43:47 <DaveS> q+
20:43:59 <li> bob: which line should be modified?
20:44:40 <li> ram: though technically sound, but it doesn't help me
20:44:59 <li> bob: what part cause you problem?
20:45:46 <li> ram: client having two options is a problem
20:46:44 <dug> q+
20:46:51 <li> ram: having two parties making decision is difficult to code
20:47:12 <Bob> ack dave
20:47:16 <li> ram: i'm having problem with duality
20:47:53 <Zakim> + +01831332aahh
20:48:11 <Ram> q+
20:48:12 <li> daves: proposal puts both subscriber and source in the driver seats
20:48:23 <dug> bob - ram can go first to answer dave 
20:48:34 <dug> it might make my question moot
20:48:41 <Bob> ack ram
20:49:43 <li> ram: giving dualities is a problem for developers
20:50:30 <gpilz> q+
20:51:12 <li> ram: cause developers to misuse API instead of coding with interactions
20:51:42 <li> dug: all elements in subscribe are optional
20:52:09 <li> ...why this one expiry is different from the others?
20:52:26 <li> ...while all others can fault when not satisfied
20:52:36 <Bob> ack dug
20:53:00 <li> ram: but there is negotiation between subscriber and source
20:53:23 <Ram> Ram has joined #ws-ra
20:53:40 <li> bob: why is it different from unsupported filter
20:53:45 <dug> q+
20:53:56 <li> ram: others are black and white, this one is not
20:54:39 <li> dug: please explain why they are different
20:55:23 <li> ram: something negotiable whereas other are not
20:55:36 <DaveS> q+
20:55:50 <DaveS> q-
20:56:06 <Bob> ack gp
20:56:12 <li> ...current spec is flexible and interop
20:56:15 <Zakim> - +039331574aaff
20:56:44 <li> gil: where can we go, if nothing can be modified?
20:57:24 <li> bob: strong objection?
20:57:29 <Zakim> -gpilz
20:57:32 <li> ram: need more time
20:57:46 <li> bob: it's long enough
20:58:12 <li> asir: we should not close it now
20:58:54 <li> bob: i asked many different ways
20:59:08 <li> asir: we need to work with oracle
20:59:24 <li> bob: what's wrong?
20:59:40 <li> bob: we're not progressing
20:59:46 <DaveS> I really would like specfics before allowing more time.
20:59:59 <dug> I agree with Bob - I'm still confused as to what's wrong with the proposal
21:00:01 <li> ram: let's spend time in f2f
21:00:19 <DaveS> What is broken and I am happy to see more time.
21:00:45 <li> bob: let's focuses on specifics
21:00:57 <li> s/focuses/focus/
21:01:21 <li> bob: objection or acceptance
21:01:31 <li> ram: will work on it
21:02:04 <li> bob: action to ram to work on the proposals
21:02:42 <li> ACTION: ram to work on proposal for the issue
21:02:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Work on proposal for the issue [on Ram Jeyaraman - due 2009-09-29].
21:03:04 <Zakim> - +0759029aagg
21:03:14 <Zakim> - +1.408.970.aadd
21:03:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:03:15 <Zakim> - +1.571.262.aabb
21:03:16 <Zakim> -Yves
21:03:16 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
21:03:16 <Zakim> -Bob_Freund
21:03:17 <Zakim> -Doug_Davis
21:03:20 <Zakim> -li
21:03:25 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
21:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/22-ws-ra-minutes.html Yves
21:07:32 <gpilz> gpilz has left #ws-ra
21:07:41 <Zakim> - +01831332aahh
21:08:07 <Zakim> - +0208234aacc
21:08:09 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:08:10 <Zakim> Attendees were li, [Microsoft], +039331574aaaa, Bob_Freund, Doug_Davis, gpilz, Tom_Rutt, +1.571.262.aabb, +0208234aacc, +1.408.970.aadd, Yves, +039331574aaee, +039331574aaff,
21:08:13 <Zakim> ... +0759029aagg, +01831332aahh
21:37:54 <dug> dug has joined #ws-ra
21:37:58 <dug> yves?
23:26:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ws-ra