14:50:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:50:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc
14:51:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:51:07 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:51:07 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:16 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:51:21 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny
14:51:28 <msporny> Regrets: Ivan_Herman
14:51:47 <msporny> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
14:51:56 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:52:02 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:52:20 <msporny> Present+ Shane_McCarron
14:52:26 <msporny> Present+ Steven_Pemberton
14:52:36 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:52:44 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:52:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:52:54 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0030.html
14:53:10 <msporny> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html
14:53:13 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:58:58 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:07 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:00:05 <msporny> zakim, code?
15:00:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny
15:00:31 <Zakim> +??P30
15:00:34 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P30
15:00:34 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:01:38 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:02:09 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:02:26 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:27 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:28 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:41 <msporny> Regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas
15:03:58 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:05:10 <msporny> benadida: We were going to talk to HTML WG chairs, but they're meeting later this week to figure out what the process is going to be.
15:05:23 <msporny> benadida: Given that Manu's draft is doing well, maybe the process is fine.
15:05:31 <msporny> benadida: We still need to understand what the process is going to be.
15:06:12 <msporny> benadida: When everybody is cooperating, everything is good. The second there is disagreement, process issues could be raised.
15:06:40 <msporny> benadida: Manu, you had said we should invite HTML WG participants?
15:06:49 <msporny> Manu: Yes, that would be good, after we meet with HTML WG chairs.
15:06:55 <msporny> benadida: Ok.
15:07:00 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to enter all recent RDFa issues into the tracker. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:07:08 <msporny> -- DONE
15:07:18 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to author 3 HTML5 drafts + separate Microdata draft. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:07:23 <msporny> -- DONE
15:07:36 <msporny> Manu: There are 4 documents
15:07:42 <msporny> Manu: RDFa (standalone)
15:07:43 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html
15:07:49 <msporny> Manu: Microdata (standalone)
15:07:56 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/microdata.html
15:08:04 <msporny> Manu: HTML5 (no semantics)
15:08:10 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-nosemantics.html
15:08:28 <msporny> Manu: HTML5 (includes Microdata and RDFa by reference)
15:08:36 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-sembyref.html
15:09:21 <msporny> benadida: It would be good to review RDFa one first
15:09:55 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:10:01 <msporny> -- CONTINUES
15:10:20 <msporny> ShaneM: That is urgent, we should start ASAP.
15:12:33 <msporny> benadida: Ok, will up the priority on WG charter.
15:12:38 <msporny> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:13:14 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/
15:13:26 <msporny> -- CONTINUES
15:13:41 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
15:15:18 <benadida> Regrets+ MarkBirbeck
15:15:19 <msporny> ShaneM: XMLLiteral has come up again
15:15:33 <msporny> ShaneM: XMLLiteral is always rooted in our case.
15:16:27 <msporny> Manu: Right.
15:18:22 <msporny> ShaneM: Even though the root isn't included in the XMLLiteral, we can act as if it is still there.
15:20:30 <ShaneM> From the spec: The value of the [XML literal] is a string created by serializing to text, all nodes that are descendants of the [current element], i.e., not including the element itself, and giving it a datatype of rdf:XMLLiteral.
15:20:40 <msporny> Manu: We should look at the spec about default xmlns preservation.
15:20:59 <msporny> Manu: I don't think we have a test case for it.
15:21:12 <msporny> ShaneM: One of the tests let's you do preservation or no preservation.
15:21:33 <ShaneM> I think the magic wording here is "serializing to text" which is handwaving and we need to point to a real method for creating a canonical serialization
15:21:36 <msporny> s/ShaneM: Even though the root/Steven: Even though the root/
15:22:10 <msporny> Topic: RDFa in HTML5 draft update & feedback
15:22:17 <benadida> scribenick: benadida
15:22:18 <msporny> scribenick: benadida
15:22:33 <benadida> Manu: pushed standalone RDFa for HTML5 spec to HTML WG earlier this week
15:22:49 <benadida> ... most of the responses are fairly positive. Mostly requests for clarifications.
15:23:46 <benadida> ... more substantive issues: DOM layering and use of xmlns
15:23:59 <benadida> ... more philosophical than technical.
15:24:46 <benadida> ... claim is that we're violating the W3C's layering spec
15:25:02 <ShaneM> I just sent a response on that thread
15:25:31 <benadida> ... need to use two different mechanisms for finding xmlns.
15:26:11 <benadida> Shane: our spec says nothing of the sort. Implementation strategies have had to deal with the dichotomy, but the spec declares a single mechanism.
15:26:24 <benadida> ... the implementation needs to deal with a complication because of the DOM.
15:26:35 <benadida> ... they want us to lock down how the DOM works, and that's not our job.
15:26:56 <benadida> Manu: goes with the HTML5 way of thinking about these specs.
15:27:20 <benadida> ... they want us to tell them exactly how to implement it.
15:29:29 <benadida> Shane: it's a burden on the implementor, "you're right."
15:31:22 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
15:31:46 <msporny> benadida: We need to focus on xmlns: in non-xml mode HTML -- the spec is fairly straightforward to implement.
15:32:14 <msporny> ShaneM: If you need to deal with different sources of input, your implementation needs to try different mechanisms.
15:32:26 <msporny> benadida: Especially if it isn't announced in a way that is consistent.
15:34:51 <msporny> Manu: THere is also the Consistent DOM serialization principle.
15:35:09 <msporny> ShaneM: There are two namespace declarations that are reserved in XHTML5
15:35:16 <msporny> ShaneM: SVG and MathML
15:35:49 <msporny> ShaneM: How do you achieve DOM consistency with those? How are SVG and MathML expressed in non-xml mode HTML5?
15:36:56 <msporny> benadida: Yes, that's an important question to ask.
15:37:45 <msporny> ShaneM: I'll bring it up.
15:38:42 <msporny> Manu: All the other issues are addressable via spec language.
15:39:44 <msporny> benadida: The HTML5 spec that Manu has written that has no semantics, or semantics by reference... is that normal?
15:39:57 <msporny> Steven: That's not normal for W3C process.
15:43:16 <msporny> ShaneM: We should publish and show that there is a way forward for spec modularization in HTML5.
15:43:42 <msporny> ShaneM: It could create a branding issue for W3C.
15:43:59 <benadida> I'm still here
15:43:59 <benadida> I was talking
15:45:46 <msporny> Topic: RDFa Issues
15:45:54 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2
15:46:01 <benadida> issues --> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2
15:46:01 <msporny> benadida: not much to say other than they're there.
15:46:51 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/228
15:47:03 <msporny> Steven: Yes, I fixed that issue
15:48:40 <msporny> Steven: I was concerned that there were two different decisions on itsRules.
15:49:07 <msporny> Steven: one that Shane proposed, and one that HTML5 proposed.
15:49:14 <msporny> ShaneM: It should be the same as HTML5.
15:49:28 <msporny> benadida: Let's try to knock these issues out over e-mail.
15:49:40 <msporny> benadida: Most of them are small... some of them are bigger issues.
15:50:22 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker
15:50:23 <msporny> Manu: There is some info on the rdfa wiki
15:51:07 <msporny> Manu: Search for "html issues"
15:51:39 <msporny> Topic: @profile discussion
15:52:08 <msporny> benadida: We're trying to find an easy way of including vocabularies and letting the author use very simple syntax (like Microformats)
15:52:20 <msporny> benadida: I think we agree that both solutions could exist and be orthogonal
15:52:29 <msporny> benadida: not clear if that is a desirable outcome.
15:55:41 <benadida> Manu: leaning towards Mark's solution
16:04:18 <msporny> benadida: We've got two proposals.
16:04:31 <msporny> benadida: One that effectively sets the default prefix (my proposal)
16:05:20 <msporny> benadida: One that requires fetching the document at parse-time via specifying multiple profiles (Mark's proposal)
16:06:19 <Steven> I have to go
16:06:37 <msporny> bye steven :)
16:06:43 <Steven> bye
16:06:49 <Zakim> -Steven
16:08:32 <msporny> benadida: There is no way to solve the problem we're trying to solve without indirection
16:08:41 <msporny> benadida: Some indirection has to be provided.
16:09:33 <msporny> benadida: That indirection is a problem for Javascript parsers.
16:10:28 <msporny> benadida: I feel like we might be re-inventing the wheel.
16:11:42 <msporny> ShaneM: The syntax should be RDFa at the end of the profile.
16:16:23 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:16:25 <Zakim> -msporny
16:16:27 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:16:27 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:16:28 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, msporny, Ben_Adida, Steven
16:17:38 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:17:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:18:59 <msporny> s/Scribe: Manu_Sporny/scribenick: msporny/
16:19:00 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:19:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:19:35 <ShaneM> FYI I completed my action item
16:19:51 <msporny> s/http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2006\/07\/SWD\/track\///
16:19:54 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:19:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:20:40 <msporny> zakim, actions
16:20:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'actions', msporny
16:20:47 <msporny> rrsagent, actions
16:20:47 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'actions', msporny.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:21:22 <msporny> rrsagent show action items
16:21:29 <msporny> rrsagent, show action items
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to enter all recent RDFa issues into the tracker. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [1]
16:21:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-07-00
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to author 3 HTML5 drafts + separate Microdata draft. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [2]
16:21:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-07-18
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [3]
16:21:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-09-55
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [4]
16:21:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-12-38
16:21:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [5]
16:21:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-50-22
16:22:40 <msporny> s/"http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/"//
16:22:41 <msporny> s/"http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/"//g
16:22:45 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:23:46 <msporny> s/benadida: http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2006\/07\/SWD\/track\///
16:23:48 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:23:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:24:22 <msporny> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 
16:24:25 <msporny> -- CONTINUES
16:25:01 <msporny> rrsagent, drop action 4
16:25:05 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:25:35 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida
16:25:36 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:27:00 <msporny> zakim, bye
16:27:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:27:03 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to enter all recent RDFa issues into the tracker. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [1]
16:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-07-00
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to author 3 HTML5 drafts + separate Microdata draft. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [2]
16:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-07-18
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [3]
16:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-09-55
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [5]
16:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T15-50-22
16:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]  [6]
16:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-irc#T16-24-22