IRC log of rdfa on 2009-08-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:37 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:53:37 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc

14:53:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

14:53:57 [msporny]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:53:57 [Zakim]

ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:54:06 [msporny]

Scribe: Manu_Sporny

14:54:10 [msporny]

scribenick: msporny

14:54:21 [msporny]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force

14:54:32 [msporny]

Chair: Ben_Adida

14:54:37 [msporny]

Present: Manu_Sporny

14:54:44 [msporny]

Regrets: Shane_McCarron

14:55:04 [msporny]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0127.html

14:55:38 [msporny]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes

14:57:51 [msporny]

rrsagent, make log public

14:58:00 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:58:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

14:59:11 [msporny]

Present+ Ben_Adida, Steven_Pemberton

14:59:13 [msporny]

df

15:02:01 [msporny]

Hi Steven :)

15:03:07 [msporny]

zakim, code?

15:03:07 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny

15:03:54 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

15:04:05 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

15:04:12 [Zakim]

+??P13

15:04:14 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??P13

15:04:14 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

15:04:18 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:04:40 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:04:40 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:04:42 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:04:44 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #rdfa

15:05:03 [markbirbeck]

sorry I'm late everyone...on my way.

15:05:09 [markbirbeck]

zakim, codes?

15:05:09 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

15:05:15 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

15:05:15 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

15:05:57 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:06:01 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

15:06:01 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

15:07:39 [msporny]

Regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas

15:07:44 [msporny]

Regrets+ Ralph_Swick

15:08:22 [msporny]

Ben: Kept agenda small because we want to discuss where we're headed.

15:08:31 [msporny]

Ben: Want to make sure everybody is happy on what we're focusing on.

15:08:43 [msporny]

Ben: So, topics you want to discuss today?

15:09:33 [msporny]

Steven: Got a call about the new IG charter - need to know details about the charter.

15:09:48 [msporny]

Ben: Yes, we need to decide that soon.

15:10:10 [msporny]

Mark: Yes, IG charter is important - we need a WG.

15:10:26 [msporny]

Mark: @profile discussion is important - Microformats-like markup.

15:10:52 [msporny]

Steven: What about HTML WG publishing Microdata spec?

15:12:04 [msporny]

Manu: HTML5+RDFa discussion and WG is very important.

15:12:24 [msporny]

Ben: Let's talk about the RDFa WG then,

15:12:53 [msporny]

Ben: followed by HTML5+RDFa xmlns: issue (10 minutes)

15:13:06 [msporny]

Ben: rest of the discussion on @profile

15:13:12 [msporny]

+1

15:13:24 [msporny]

Mark: +1

15:13:27 [msporny]

Steven: +1

15:13:40 [msporny]

Topic: Action Items

15:13:51 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:13:58 [msporny]

-- continues

15:14:22 [msporny]

Manu: Sent e-mail to Ralph...

15:14:34 [msporny]

ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

15:14:38 [msporny]

-- continues

15:19:11 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to get permission from his board to co-chair RDFa WG

15:19:40 [msporny]

Topic: RDFa WG

15:19:49 [msporny]

Ben: One of the things we need to produce is RDFa 1.1

15:20:05 [msporny]

Ben: Don't know if it includes @profile or not

15:20:43 [msporny]

Ben: This next group may have to define how to define how to do RDFa in HTML5.

15:23:21 [msporny]

Ben: There are people doing RDFa in HTML5 - it needs to be defined for HTML5

15:23:43 [msporny]

Ben: The chance of RDFa getting into HTML5 is unknown at this point.

15:24:37 [msporny]

Ben: Maybe RDFa WG needs to provide guidance for HTML5+RDFa

15:24:47 [msporny]

Steven: Part of the discussion is "Where should RDFa reside"?

15:25:40 [msporny]

Steven: The current discussion is which group RDFa should be in (Semantic Web or HTML)

15:26:05 [Steven]

s/group/activity/

15:26:11 [msporny]

Ben: The scope should be XHTML+RDFa and provide guidance to HTML WG on implementing RDFa

15:26:12 [Steven]

s/HTML/Interaction/

15:26:28 [msporny]

Ben: If HTML WG fails to provide guidance, RDFa WG would provide guidance to the community.

15:27:12 [msporny]

Steven: We have to be a WG, we can't be an IG.

15:29:21 [msporny]

Mark: If you think about the occasions where we've made progress, it's been where we've been blunt.

15:30:14 [msporny]

Mark: We should present this as a Note - we present the solution and W3C should figure out how to make it happen.

15:30:47 [msporny]

Steven: We can do this according to HTML5 rules.

15:31:19 [Steven]

I like the idea of a note

15:31:46 [msporny]

Ben: We need to help HTML WG figure out their process - RDFa is one mechanism to do that.

15:32:44 [msporny]

Ben: So we should proceed in parallel.

15:33:50 [msporny]

Mark: We should continue to evangelize RDFa - focus on building tools, etc.

15:34:22 [msporny]

Mark: XBL has been around for years as a W3C Note.

15:34:50 [msporny]

Mark: We feel that guidance is necessary for HTML5+RDFa and we need to push out new features for RDFa that people are asking for.

15:36:05 [msporny]

Ben: Right, we shouldn't block on HTML WG.

15:38:39 [msporny]

+1 for W3C Note running in parallel

15:41:33 [msporny]

Ben: What needs to be in the W3C Note?

15:42:57 [msporny]

Ben: This is what we want to do:

15:43:04 [msporny]

Ben: RDFa in XHTML v1.1

15:43:13 [msporny]

Ben: Guidance on HTML+RDFa

15:43:23 [msporny]

Ben: Primer update

15:43:38 [msporny]

Ben: Guidance on implementation to web community.

15:43:55 [msporny]

Ben: Those are the things that the RDFa WG would focus on.

15:45:05 [msporny]

Steven: It should be in the Semantic Web community and not the Interaction community (HTML, Forms, etc.)

15:45:23 [msporny]

Ben: Difficult to say - it ends up being a political discussion.

15:45:56 [msporny]

ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template.

15:46:31 [benadida]

Manu: the main issue remaining in HTML5+RDFa is xmlns issue

15:46:36 [benadida]

... all other issues are small

15:47:06 [benadida]

... xmlns preserved in DOM in browsers today, so no technical issue

15:47:23 [benadida]

... only issue is with authoring guidance, xmlns is invalid HTML5, though valid XHTML5.

15:47:33 [benadida]

... even then, just a warning.

15:48:01 [benadida]

... potential proposal: don't warn on xmlns

15:48:39 [benadida]

Manu: proposed a month ago HTML5+RDFa draft that modifies HTML5 spec and includes RDFa by reference to XHTML1.1 version of RDFa

15:48:51 [benadida]

... exactly what Shane did for HTML4+RDFa

15:49:10 [benadida]

... will propose this to the HTML WG once we have figured out the process.

15:49:40 [benadida]

... feel that we have to try and, if it fails, demonstrate that it failed.

15:51:01 [benadida]

Manu: considering multiple approaches: 1) RDFa in, microdata stays, 2) microdata extracted to own spec, RDFa as a similar add-on spec, both referenced from HTML5

15:51:19 [benadida]

... 3) no microdata or RDFa in HTML5, create external specs.

15:51:46 [benadida]

... no idea how the community will react to them.

15:52:15 [benadida]

Mark: good to keep engaging, but important to have other things moving forward, too. Many communities we're addressing.

15:54:06 [benadida]

... but this isn't the only route, there is community momentum for doing RDFa in HTML5.

15:54:21 [benadida]

... people are doing this already.

15:54:49 [benadida]

Manu: mark is right, the tracks have to be parallel.

15:55:08 [benadida]

... but message has to be the same across these threads.

15:55:44 [msporny]

Scribenick: msporny

15:56:02 [msporny]

Mark: We should move in parallel

15:56:05 [msporny]

Manu: Yes we should

15:57:47 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:57:51 [msporny]

Mark: Microdata takes more markup to indicate the same thing as RDFa.

15:57:51 [Steven]

battery died

15:58:25 [msporny]

Mark: People claim that Microdata is simpler, but even with license, it takes lots of markup to express something simple.

15:58:28 [msporny]

Mark: Microdata is a joke.

15:58:42 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:58:42 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:58:44 [Zakim]

+Steven

16:01:17 [msporny]

Mark: Although, we should trust the community to flush out the problems with Microdata.

16:04:00 [msporny]

Ben: I'll update the charter to be a WG charter proposal.

16:08:11 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:08:12 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

16:08:12 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:08:12 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:08:14 [Zakim]

Attendees were msporny, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck

16:15:38 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:15:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:15:56 [msporny]

Present+ Mark_Birbeck

16:17:02 [msporny]

s/being a political discussion./being a political discussion.\nscribenick: benadida\n/

16:17:04 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:17:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:18:15 [msporny]

s/\nscribenick: benadida\n/\\nscribenick: benadida\\n/

16:18:17 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:18:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:20:45 [msporny]

s/\\nscribenick: benadida\\n/

16:20:45 [msporny]

scribenick: benadida

16:21:01 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:21:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:21:37 [msporny]

s/Ben: Difficult to say - it ends up being a political discussion./scribenick: benadida/

16:21:39 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:21:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:23:14 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. -- DROP

16:23:18 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template.

16:23:24 [msporny]

-- drop

16:23:48 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

16:23:50 [msporny]

-- drop

16:23:54 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:23:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:31:21 [msporny]

heh, thanks - just wrestling with the minutes.

16:52:58 [msporny]

rrsagent, bye

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [1]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-13-51

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-14-34

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to get permission from his board to co-chair RDFa WG [3]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-19-11

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [4]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-45-56

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. -- DROP [5]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-14

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [6]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-18

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [7]

16:52:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-48

16:53:00 [msporny]

zakim, bye

16:53:00 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa