14:53:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:53:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc
14:53:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:53:57 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:53:57 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:54:06 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:54:10 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
14:54:21 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:54:32 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:54:37 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny
14:54:44 <msporny> Regrets: Shane_McCarron
14:55:04 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0127.html
14:55:38 <msporny> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes
14:57:51 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:58:00 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:59:11 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida, Steven_Pemberton
14:59:13 <msporny> df
15:02:01 <msporny> Hi Steven :)
15:03:07 <msporny> zakim, code?
15:03:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny
15:03:54 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:04:05 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:04:12 <Zakim> +??P13
15:04:14 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P13
15:04:14 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:04:18 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:04:40 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:04:40 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:42 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:44 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:05:03 <markbirbeck> sorry I'm late everyone...on my way.
15:05:09 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?
15:05:09 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:05:15 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:05:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:05:57 <Zakim> +??P24
15:06:01 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:06:01 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:07:39 <msporny> Regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas
15:07:44 <msporny> Regrets+ Ralph_Swick
15:08:22 <msporny> Ben: Kept agenda small because we want to discuss where we're headed.
15:08:31 <msporny> Ben: Want to make sure everybody is happy on what we're focusing on.
15:08:43 <msporny> Ben: So, topics you want to discuss today?
15:09:33 <msporny> Steven: Got a call about the new IG charter - need to know details about the charter.
15:09:48 <msporny> Ben: Yes, we need to decide that soon.
15:10:10 <msporny> Mark: Yes, IG charter is important - we need a WG.
15:10:26 <msporny> Mark: @profile discussion is important - Microformats-like markup.
15:10:52 <msporny> Steven: What about HTML WG publishing Microdata spec?
15:12:04 <msporny> Manu: HTML5+RDFa discussion and WG is very important.
15:12:24 <msporny> Ben: Let's talk about the RDFa WG then,
15:12:53 <msporny> Ben: followed by HTML5+RDFa xmlns: issue (10 minutes)
15:13:06 <msporny> Ben: rest of the discussion on @profile
15:13:12 <msporny> +1
15:13:24 <msporny> Mark: +1
15:13:27 <msporny> Steven: +1
15:13:40 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:13:51 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:13:58 <msporny> -- continues
15:14:22 <msporny> Manu: Sent e-mail to Ralph...
15:14:34 <msporny> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:14:38 <msporny> -- continues
15:19:11 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to get permission from his board to co-chair RDFa WG
15:19:40 <msporny> Topic: RDFa WG
15:19:49 <msporny> Ben: One of the things we need to produce is RDFa 1.1
15:20:05 <msporny> Ben: Don't know if it includes @profile or not
15:20:43 <msporny> Ben: This next group may have to define how to define how to do RDFa in HTML5.
15:23:21 <msporny> Ben: There are people doing RDFa in HTML5 - it needs to be defined for HTML5
15:23:43 <msporny> Ben: The chance of RDFa getting into HTML5 is unknown at this point.
15:24:37 <msporny> Ben: Maybe RDFa WG needs to provide guidance for HTML5+RDFa
15:24:47 <msporny> Steven: Part of the discussion is "Where should RDFa reside"?
15:25:40 <msporny> Steven: The current discussion is which group RDFa should be in (Semantic Web or HTML)
15:26:05 <Steven> s/group/activity/
15:26:11 <msporny> Ben: The scope should be XHTML+RDFa and provide guidance to HTML WG on implementing RDFa
15:26:12 <Steven> s/HTML/Interaction/
15:26:28 <msporny> Ben: If HTML WG fails to provide guidance, RDFa WG would provide guidance to the community.
15:27:12 <msporny> Steven: We have to be a WG, we can't be an IG.
15:29:21 <msporny> Mark: If you think about the occasions where we've made progress, it's been where we've been blunt.
15:30:14 <msporny> Mark: We should present this as a Note - we present the solution and W3C should figure out how to make it happen.
15:30:47 <msporny> Steven: We can do this according to HTML5 rules.
15:31:19 <Steven> I like the idea of a note
15:31:46 <msporny> Ben: We need to help HTML WG figure out their process - RDFa is one mechanism to do that.
15:32:44 <msporny> Ben: So we should proceed in parallel.
15:33:50 <msporny> Mark: We should continue to evangelize RDFa - focus on building tools, etc.
15:34:22 <msporny> Mark: XBL has been around for years as a W3C Note.
15:34:50 <msporny> Mark: We feel that guidance is necessary for HTML5+RDFa and we need to push out new features for RDFa that people are asking for.
15:36:05 <msporny> Ben: Right, we shouldn't block on HTML WG.
15:38:39 <msporny> +1 for W3C Note running in parallel
15:41:33 <msporny> Ben: What needs to be in the W3C Note?
15:42:57 <msporny> Ben: This is what we want to do:
15:43:04 <msporny> Ben: RDFa in XHTML v1.1
15:43:13 <msporny> Ben: Guidance on HTML+RDFa
15:43:23 <msporny> Ben: Primer update
15:43:38 <msporny> Ben: Guidance on implementation to web community.
15:43:55 <msporny> Ben: Those are the things that the RDFa WG would focus on.
15:45:05 <msporny> Steven: It should be in the Semantic Web community and not the Interaction community (HTML, Forms, etc.)
15:45:23 <msporny> Ben: Difficult to say - it ends up being a political discussion.
15:45:56 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template.
15:46:31 <benadida> Manu: the main issue remaining in HTML5+RDFa is xmlns issue
15:46:36 <benadida> ... all other issues are small
15:47:06 <benadida> ... xmlns preserved in DOM in browsers today, so no technical issue
15:47:23 <benadida> ... only issue is with authoring guidance, xmlns is invalid HTML5, though valid XHTML5.
15:47:33 <benadida> ... even then, just a warning.
15:48:01 <benadida> ... potential proposal: don't warn on xmlns
15:48:39 <benadida> Manu: proposed a month ago HTML5+RDFa draft that modifies HTML5 spec and includes RDFa by reference to XHTML1.1 version of RDFa
15:48:51 <benadida> ... exactly what Shane did for HTML4+RDFa
15:49:10 <benadida> ... will propose this to the HTML WG once we have figured out the process.
15:49:40 <benadida> ... feel that we have to try and, if it fails, demonstrate that it failed.
15:51:01 <benadida> Manu: considering multiple approaches: 1) RDFa in, microdata stays, 2) microdata extracted to own spec, RDFa as a similar add-on spec, both referenced from HTML5
15:51:19 <benadida> ... 3) no microdata or RDFa in HTML5, create external specs.
15:51:46 <benadida> ... no idea how the community will react to them.
15:52:15 <benadida> Mark: good to keep engaging, but important to have other things moving forward, too. Many communities we're addressing.
15:54:06 <benadida> ... but this isn't the only route, there is community momentum for doing RDFa in HTML5.
15:54:21 <benadida> ... people are doing this already.
15:54:49 <benadida> Manu: mark is right, the tracks have to be parallel.
15:55:08 <benadida> ... but message has to be the same across these threads.
15:55:44 <msporny> Scribenick: msporny
15:56:02 <msporny> Mark: We should move in parallel
15:56:05 <msporny> Manu: Yes we should
15:57:47 <Zakim> -Steven
15:57:51 <msporny> Mark: Microdata takes more markup to indicate the same thing as RDFa.
15:57:51 <Steven> battery died
15:58:25 <msporny> Mark: People claim that Microdata is simpler, but even with license, it takes lots of markup to express something simple.
15:58:28 <msporny> Mark: Microdata is a joke.
15:58:42 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:58:42 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:58:44 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:17 <msporny> Mark: Although, we should trust the community to flush out the problems with Microdata.
16:04:00 <msporny> Ben: I'll update the charter to be a WG charter proposal.
16:08:11 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Steven
16:08:12 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:08:14 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck
16:15:38 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:15:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:15:56 <msporny> Present+ Mark_Birbeck
16:17:02 <msporny> s/being a political discussion./being a political discussion.\nscribenick: benadida\n/
16:17:04 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:17:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:18:15 <msporny> s/\nscribenick: benadida\n/\\nscribenick: benadida\\n/
16:18:17 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:18:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:20:45 <msporny> s/\\nscribenick: benadida\\n/
16:20:45 <msporny> scribenick: benadida
16:21:01 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:21:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:21:37 <msporny> s/Ben: Difficult to say - it ends up being a political discussion./scribenick: benadida/
16:21:39 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:21:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:23:14 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. -- DROP
16:23:18 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template.
16:23:24 <msporny> -- drop
16:23:48 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
16:23:50 <msporny> -- drop
16:23:54 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:23:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:31:21 <msporny> heh, thanks - just wrestling with the minutes.
16:52:58 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [1]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-13-51
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-14-34
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get permission from his board to co-chair RDFa WG [3]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-19-11
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [4]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T15-45-56
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. -- DROP [5]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-14
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [6]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-18
16:52:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [7]
16:52:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-irc#T16-23-48
16:53:00 <msporny> zakim, bye
16:53:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa