15:05:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
15:05:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/14-aapi-irc
15:06:03 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes public
15:06:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Andi.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:06:40 <davidb> Andi: use logs instead of minutes
15:06:52 <davidb> and world-visible
15:06:56 <davidb> instead of public
15:07:00 <Andi> rrsagent, make log world-visible
15:07:26 <davidb> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:07:26 <Zakim> sorry, davidb, I don't know what conference this is
15:07:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Andi, davidb
15:08:10 <Andi> topic: as-built browser table
15:08:12 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/HTML_4.x_as-built_browser_comparison
15:10:15 <Andi> CS: plan is to look at what browsers do now with HTML elements, find inconsistencies and gaps, move towards normative mapping reference
15:11:23 <Andi> CS: for example, everyone gives <a> elements role of link but nobody gives <area> elements a role of link
15:11:35 <davidb> I think gecko exposes aria role="link" as link
15:12:50 <Andi> CS: <a href> - most expose as "link". Opera exposes as "text" which seems incorrect. 
15:13:30 <Andi> CS: <area> not exposed to MSAA - seems like should be exposed as link
15:14:08 <Andi> CS: <area> name should come from @alt
15:14:54 <Andi> CS: <area> - default action should be "jump"
15:15:31 <Andi> CS: <br> Gecko maps to white space
15:15:52 <Andi> DB: looking at code, looks like Gecko exposes <area> as link
15:16:50 <Andi> CS: should we have SHOULDS and MUSTs in this document?
15:17:04 <Andi> CS: mapping <br> to white space seems like a SHOULD
15:19:24 <Andi> CS: in IE, title maps to name on a lot of stuff
15:19:45 <Andi> DB: may need to augment name computation algorithm in UAIG
15:22:00 <Andi> CS: IE treats <div> as grouping - everybody else treats as text
15:22:08 <Andi> CS: <div> is supposed to be a grouping
15:22:36 <Andi> CS: having <div> be a grouping is useful for ATs to be able to navigate by <divs>
15:23:10 <Andi> CS: but does making <div> be a grouping make grouping navigation too noisy?
15:23:40 <Andi> DB: in Gecko, gets exposed through sub-API
15:24:57 <Andi> CS: question about <div> - go by spec and treat as section or ignore it?
15:25:25 <Andi> CS: is anyone relying on it being "grouping"?
15:25:41 <Andi> DB: probably worked around what the implementations are doing
15:25:58 <Andi> CS: AT doesn't seem to do much with "grouping"
15:26:21 <Andi> CS: think new document section things should be mapped to grouping
15:26:44 <Andi> CS: fieldset mapped to grouping - seems right
15:28:05 <Andi> CS: hr - Gecko maps to separator which seems right. nobody else does anything with it
15:28:30 <Andi> CS: might make sense to start deprecating use of title as name
15:28:43 <Andi> DB: ask authors to use aria-label
15:29:14 <Andi> CS: hr to separator seems like a SHOULD
15:29:55 <Andi> CS: does HTML5 still have separator? seems like most people don't use it anymore
15:32:15 <Andi> CS: h1 - h6: not mapped by anybody - should be mapped to heading role
15:32:32 <Andi> CS: name from children, no actions
15:32:50 <Andi> CS: iframes are changing a lot in HTML 5, not sure how to handle
15:33:55 <Andi> CS: todo - figure out how iframes work
15:35:51 <Andi> CS: img - IE uses title if no alt but DOM-based AT doesn't see it
15:36:51 <Andi> DB: Gecko - if null @alt, don't map at all, treat like ARIA role="presentation"
15:38:05 <Andi> CS: only Gecko supports @longdesc - HTML5 trying to deprecate
15:39:59 <Andi> CS; img usemap - map structure with area elements should be part of accessible tree
15:40:34 <Andi> CS: input image - Gecko has as graphic
15:41:35 <Andi> DB: Gecko does use title on img if it's there, not sure if it maps to name or description
15:42:43 <Andi> CS: input image - IE maps to button, Gecko maps to graphic, Opera doesn't map
15:43:52 <Andi> *** stopped minuting as Cynthia is taking notes ***
16:02:00 <cshelly> cshelly has joined #aapi
16:02:05 <cshelly> <a href> role=link, name like IE and FF
16:02:05 <cshelly> <area> role=link, name from alt, default action jump
16:02:05 <cshelly> <br> = whitespace (SHOULD)
16:02:07 <cshelly> <fieldset> = grouping, name from<legend>
16:02:09 <cshelly> <hr> separator (SHOULD?)
16:02:11 <cshelly> <h1>-<h6> Heading role, name from children
16:02:13 <cshelly> Usemap has children  in tree?
16:02:15 <cshelly> <input image> role=button, name works like image, label
16:02:17 <cshelly> Label, legend, li, ul, ol like Gecko
16:02:19 <cshelly> Table name s/b from summary.  
16:02:21 <cshelly> Textare name from label
16:02:23 <cshelly> TH is column head or row head 
16:02:26 <cshelly> Span = text (not groupign)
16:02:37 <cshelly> now I will paste the rest
16:05:09 <cshelly> Open issue:Title mapping to name.  IE does it.  Can it be replaced by aria-label?  Are there places where it's more important to keep than others?  There is a fair bit of deployed content that uses it.
16:05:52 <cshelly> DIV:  do we go by spec (HTML 4 semantics) and treat it as a section/group?  Ignore it because it's lost its semantic through overuse?  How does HTML 5 treat DIV?  anybody relying on it being a grouping.
16:06:31 <cshelly> IFRAME:  these are really different in HTML 5.  Work item:  look at what to do here.  Can the name mapping be more intitive?
16:07:39 <cshelly> IMG ALT:  Gecko and Opera both make <img alt=""> not in the MSAA tree.  IE makes it graphic with empty string for name. Gecko/Opera approch seems better. Would that break deployed content?
16:08:08 <cshelly> Does multiselectable on a <select> change the roll?
16:08:37 <cshelly> textarea:  check that IE gets default value from @value, that others update value based on user entered text
16:08:49 <cshelly> How should headers and scope an such impact MSAA?
16:09:05 <cshelly> Work item:  document events in IE and ask Opera to do the same
16:09:36 <cshelly> Work item:  How to handle elements that are obsolete in HTML 5 but mapped in browsers?  Does it matter how widely used the technique is?
16:09:56 <cshelly> Work Item:  add new tags from HTML 5 to table.
16:10:03 <cshelly> Next call 2 weeks from today.
16:10:09 <cshelly> zakim make minutes
16:10:21 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/14-aapi-minutes.html Andi
16:10:34 <cshelly> thanks :-)
16:25:12 <davidb> davidb has changed the topic to: Zakim wears his underwear backwards
18:57:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi