IRC log of mediafrag on 2009-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:03:40 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

12:03:42 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #mediafrag

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Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG

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ok, trackbot, I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM already started

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Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference

12:03:46 [trackbot]

Date: 12 August 2009

12:04:03 [Zakim]

+Yves

12:04:49 [Zakim]

+ +49.300.aabb

12:04:57 [raphael]

zakim, aabb is me

12:04:57 [Zakim]

+raphael; got it

12:05:31 [Zakim]

+ +61.2.801.2.aacc

12:06:13 [silvia]

aacc is silvia

12:06:20 [raphael]

zakim, aacc is silvia

12:06:20 [Zakim]

+silvia; got it

12:06:52 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas

12:07:15 [silvia]

1. ADMIN:

12:07:25 [silvia]

* Roll call

12:07:31 [silvia]

regrets from Guillaume and Conrad

12:07:44 [silvia]

* PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 15 & 22 July 2009 telecon:

12:07:51 [silvia]

http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-mediafrag-minutes.html

12:07:51 [silvia]

http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-mediafrag-minutes.html

12:07:55 [mhausenblas]

+1

12:07:56 [davy]

+1

12:07:58 [raphael]

+1

12:08:00 [erik]

+1

12:08:00 [Yves]

+1

12:08:12 [raphael]

s/1. ADMIN:/Topic: 1. ADMIN

12:08:21 [silvia]

* ACTION-92: Erik and Raphael to coordinate the writing of papers (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/09/09)

12:08:48 [silvia]

2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:

12:09:00 [silvia]

s/2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:/Topic: 2. UC & REQUIREMENTS

12:09:17 [silvia]

Zakim, mute me

12:09:17 [Zakim]

silvia should now be muted

12:09:25 [silvia]

* ACTION-68: Raphael to ask the Media Annotations WG to review our document

12:09:47 [silvia]

there are actions on the MA WG chair - Raphael will follow up

12:10:04 [silvia]

* To be discussed: Live Streaming UC (see Mail Silvia ? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0028.html)

12:10:07 [raphael]

I will also ask this Friday at the HCG telecon

12:10:08 [silvia]

Zakim, unmute me

12:10:08 [Zakim]

silvia should no longer be muted

12:11:27 [silvia]

there are actually two questions:

12:11:52 [Zakim]

-silvia

12:12:43 [Zakim]

+silvia

12:13:19 [silvia]

* procedural question - how to extend the use cases document

12:13:24 [silvia]

* technical discussion

12:13:39 [silvia]

raphael: likes the extension, but we need to clarify

12:13:48 [silvia]

... difference between query and hash

12:16:56 [silvia]

... need to have a complete specification

12:17:44 [silvia]

... procedure: just write the specification and commit it

12:18:02 [silvia]

ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case

12:18:03 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-94 - Write specification for streaming use case [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-08-19].

12:19:27 [silvia]

general agreement to the use case

12:19:37 [silvia]

mhausenblas: did you have a mobile use case to it?

12:20:14 [silvia]

... there may be additional requirements around requirements on resources for media addressing

12:20:43 [silvia]

... mobile area is a good selling point for media fragment use

12:21:05 [silvia]

... I will keep this in mind an highlight it if we need more requirements around this

12:21:37 [silvia]

zakim, mute me

12:21:37 [Zakim]

silvia should now be muted

12:22:03 [silvia]

TOPIC: 3. SPECIFICATION

12:22:08 [silvia]

3.1 Syntax: (Yves)

12:22:16 [silvia]

* ACTION-49: Yves to Draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units

12:22:16 [silvia]

(completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/08/09, after IETF Meeting)

12:22:48 [raphael]

ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage

12:22:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-95 - Review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-08-19].

12:23:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

12:23:05 [silvia]

Yves: reports on IETF meeting and extension of HTTP-Range syntax

12:23:24 [raphael]

Chair: Erik

12:23:29 [raphael]

Scribe: Silvia

12:23:31 [silvia]

... progress is made and once it's agreed, it will be ratified by IANA

12:23:33 [raphael]

scribenick: silvia

12:23:46 [silvia]

... have more info by the end of the month

12:24:04 [raphael]

Present: Yves, Davy, Erik, Silvia, Michael, Raphael

12:24:05 [silvia]

(re-raise around 30/08/09)

12:24:06 [Yves]

s/will/should/

12:24:10 [raphael]

Regrets: Jack

12:24:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

12:24:21 [silvia]

* ACTION-93: Michael to revisit the TC and see which are affected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision

12:24:55 [silvia]

mhausenblas: was discussion on temporal-optional-comma-decision finalised?

12:25:35 [Yves]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0038.html

12:26:22 [silvia]

Franck made a counter-proposal

12:26:45 [silvia]

Yves: the trailing comma is not giving us anything useful

12:26:49 [silvia]

... I am fine with this proposal

12:27:25 [silvia]

zakim, unmute me

12:27:25 [Zakim]

silvia should no longer be muted

12:28:23 [raphael]

we are discussion Frank's proposal: remove case 2 and 4 which are redondant

12:28:31 [silvia]

silvia: happy with this proposal - it removes the option to specify the same case in two different ways

12:28:38 [raphael]

+1 with this proposal

12:28:59 [silvia]

Yves is happy to change the grammar in the specification

12:29:17 [mhausenblas]

+1

12:29:19 [silvia]

ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification

12:29:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-96 - Make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-08-19].

12:29:20 [erik]

+1

12:29:35 [silvia]

we now have working group agreement on this specification

12:29:37 [silvia]

+1

12:29:48 [silvia]

Yves will reply to Franck

12:30:22 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: the working group agrees to the temporal-optional-comma specification proposed by Franck

12:30:29 [silvia]

3.2 UA Server HTTP Communication (Conrad/Raphael)

12:30:35 [silvia]

* ACTION-69: Conrad to draw a representation of the general structure of

12:30:36 [silvia]

a media resource, for streamable formats (ongoing ? re-raise around 01/09/09, when having had full discussion)

12:30:41 [silvia]

ongoing

12:30:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

12:31:01 [silvia]

raphael will follow up on this thread

12:31:10 [silvia]

4. TEST CASES: (Michael)

12:31:16 [silvia]

* See: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases

12:31:50 [silvia]

TC0002: empty time segment - npt

12:32:40 [silvia]

empty time segment

12:32:46 [silvia]

e.g. #t=0,0

12:32:57 [silvia]

416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:33:03 [raphael]

+1

12:33:06 [silvia]

+1

12:33:13 [davy]

+1

12:33:14 [erik]

+1

12:33:29 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0002 is approved

12:33:55 [silvia]

TC0003: empty space segment

12:34:04 [silvia]

empty space segment

12:34:11 [silvia]

e.g. #xywh=0,0,0,0

12:34:19 [silvia]

416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:34:20 [raphael]

+1

12:34:22 [davy]

+1

12:34:23 [erik]

+1

12:34:29 [silvia]

+1

12:34:41 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0003 is approved

12:34:48 [silvia]

TC0004: empty space segment - aspect

12:34:57 [silvia]

empty space segment - aspect

12:35:03 [silvia]

#aspect=0:0

12:35:13 [silvia]

416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:36:36 [raphael]

Yves; no restriction on the values except they must be integers

12:36:56 [raphael]

... many ratio out there already, and more can be proposed later on

12:37:10 [raphael]

+1 for current proposal

12:37:11 [silvia]

Yves: capturing all the restrictions in the syntax itself is not necessary

12:37:35 [silvia]

+1

12:37:37 [davy]

+1

12:37:37 [erik]

+1

12:37:56 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0004 is approved

12:38:03 [silvia]

--

12:38:03 [silvia]

TC0005: empty track segment

12:38:10 [silvia]

empty track segment

12:38:27 [silvia]

e.g. #track="" (I think)

12:38:33 [silvia]

416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:38:50 [silvia]

Yves: should it not rather mean the whole resource?

12:39:05 [raphael]

I agree TC0005 is similar to TC0001

12:39:18 [silvia]

... selection is based on nothing defined, so it is similar to TC0001 and should be all

12:39:43 [silvia]

mhausenblas: is there an implementation yet?

12:39:47 [raphael]

Michael: search for implementation in the real world of the track thing. Does that exist at all?

12:39:49 [silvia]

yves: don't think so

12:40:11 [silvia]

... it's more a theoretical experiment right now

12:40:31 [silvia]

mhausenblas: if there are none, we are free to specify

12:40:45 [raphael]

For consistency, I would prefer to have the same behavior than TC0001

12:40:59 [raphael]

postpone ?

12:41:07 [silvia]

... I hesitate to propose to resolve it without more empirical experience

12:42:34 [raphael]

We can look at what DVD players do ... when a command parameter ask to play a dvd with an empty track name

12:42:48 [raphael]

... my guess is that the default language is used ... and not err

12:44:15 [silvia]

silvia: let's look at it from a programmer pov - if I composed it through a tick list and no tracks were ticked, I'd probably expect all tracks to be delivered

12:44:23 [raphael]

Correction, re TC0005

12:44:26 [raphael]

Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned

12:44:29 [mhausenblas]

+1

12:44:32 [raphael]

+1

12:44:32 [erik]

+1

12:44:32 [silvia]

+1

12:44:33 [davy]

+1

12:44:57 [silvia]

--

12:44:57 [silvia]

TC0006: empty named segment

12:45:08 [silvia]

e.g. #id="" (I think)

12:45:15 [silvia]

currently: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:45:28 [silvia]

Yves: we should apply the same logic

12:45:31 [silvia]

general agreement

12:45:42 [raphael]

Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned

12:45:45 [erik]

+1

12:45:49 [mhausenblas]

s/Yves: we should apply the same logic/Yves: we should apply the same logic as with TC0005

12:45:51 [raphael]

+1

12:45:52 [mhausenblas]

+1

12:45:55 [davy]

+1

12:46:29 [raphael]

Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC005

12:46:40 [raphael]

Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC0006 (oups)

12:47:03 [Yves]

we should probably revisit 07

12:47:23 [Yves]

as the definition of "empty" is different depending on the axis

12:48:14 [mhausenblas]

Yves, TC0007? Really?

12:48:22 [raphael]

Should we add more Test Cases when there is an ID (or a Track) ... but not defined in the video

12:48:28 [silvia]

silvia: is considering the comparison between empty id and and id that doesn't exist

12:49:25 [silvia]

.. but they are different

12:49:34 [silvia]

yves: we should add a test case for non-existing ID

12:49:51 [silvia]

... but when no ID is specified, it should refer to the full resource

12:49:55 [silvia]

--

12:50:01 [silvia]

revisit TC0007

12:50:26 [silvia]

Yves: since #t=, now refers to the full resource, we should revisit TC0007

12:50:32 [silvia]

#t=,&id='ID0'

12:50:33 [raphael]

What about if you replace your input by: "#xywh=0,0,0,0&t=,"

12:50:34 [raphael]

?

12:50:54 [silvia]

... should now refer to the named fragment ID0

12:51:52 [raphael]

For now, can we change the status of TC0007 from approved to un-reviewed ?

12:52:02 [silvia]

Proposal: 200, return representation for named fragment ID0

12:52:03 [raphael]

... but keep the previous agreement in the record

12:52:19 [silvia]

silvia: can we add the new proposal then?

12:52:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

12:53:21 [mhausenblas]

+1

12:53:23 [davy]

+1

12:53:26 [raphael]

+1

12:54:05 [mhausenblas]

adding TC10mwith #t=0,0&id='ID0'

12:54:45 [silvia]

Michael: add a new test case 10, which captures the former intention of TC0007

12:54:58 [mhausenblas]

and return 416 for TC10

12:55:03 [silvia]

this new test case will read #t=0,0&id='ID0'

12:55:09 [erik]

+1

12:55:12 [raphael]

+1 for michael proposal to add TC0010 ... I have also used before the example with an empty space segment

12:55:39 [silvia]

+1

12:55:56 [raphael]

same for non existing track name ... non existing id

12:56:08 [raphael]

so we need TC0011 and TC0012

12:56:18 [silvia]

adding a new test case TC0011 for non-existing id

12:56:34 [silvia]

e.g. #id="none"

12:56:42 [raphael]

RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved

12:56:45 [raphael]

RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved

12:56:50 [silvia]

reply: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred

12:57:01 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, draft minutes

12:57:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas

12:57:46 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved

12:57:49 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved

12:57:57 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC0007 to be changed as discussed

12:58:10 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, draft minutes

12:58:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas

12:58:15 [silvia]

RESOLUTION: TC010, TC011, TC012 to be added as discussed

12:58:32 [silvia]

erik: we have run out of time

12:58:46 [Zakim]

-thierry

12:58:49 [Zakim]

-Yves

12:58:51 [Zakim]

-silvia

12:58:53 [Zakim]

-mhausenblas

12:58:54 [silvia]

...thanks everyone

12:58:55 [Zakim]

-Erik

12:58:58 [davy]

davy has left #mediafrag

12:59:01 [mhausenblas]

great job, silvia!

12:59:04 [Zakim]

-raphael

12:59:05 [Zakim]

IA_MFWG()8:00AM has ended

12:59:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were thierry, +329331aaaa, Yves, Erik, Davy, +49.300.aabb, raphael, +61.2.801.2.aacc, silvia, mhausenblas

12:59:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

12:59:14 [mhausenblas]

+1 to Yves proposal!!!!

12:59:15 [mhausenblas]

;)

12:59:47 [raphael]

bye, zakim

12:59:54 [raphael]

s/raphael/yves

12:59:56 [raphael]

:-)

13:00:07 [raphael]

zakim, bye

13:00:07 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #mediafrag

13:00:39 [raphael]

Topic: AOB

13:00:41 [raphael]

none

13:00:43 [raphael]

meeting adjourned

13:00:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael

13:01:41 [silvia]

actually: raphael - TC0005 and TC0006 are not approved, but are to be changed as discussed

13:01:44 [raphael]

RRSAgent, bye

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-actions.rdf :

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case [1]

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-18-02

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [2]

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-22-48

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [3]

13:01:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-29-19

13:01:46 [silvia]

that's why I didn't write them ike that