14:45:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-irc
14:45:51 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
14:45:51 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:46:05 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 28 July 2009
14:46:23 <csma> Chair: Chris Welty
14:46:55 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0040.html
14:47:31 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: #rif 28 July RIF telecon; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0040.html
14:47:56 <csma> rrsagent, make log public
14:48:02 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
14:48:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-minutes.html csma
14:48:12 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:48:12 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:48:46 <csma> agendum+ Admin
14:49:03 <csma> agendum+ Liaisons
14:49:10 <csma> agendum+ Actions review
14:49:41 <csma> agendum+ LC public comments
14:50:21 <csma> agendum+ Next steps (incl. telecon schedule)
14:50:39 <csma> agendum+RIF and XML data
14:50:52 <csma> agendum+ Test cases
14:50:59 <csma> agendum+ AOB
14:51:30 <csma> Regrets: AxelPolleres
14:57:55 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
14:59:17 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
14:59:27 <ChrisW> i'm running late
15:00:30 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:00:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:54 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:58 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:17 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:24 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:45 <Zakim> +??P16
15:01:56 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P21
15:02:26 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, ??P21
15:02:37 <csma> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:02:37 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:02:56 <csma> Scribe: Stella Mitchell
15:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aaaa
15:03:11 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:11 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:03:11 <csma> scribenick: Stella_Mitchell
15:04:32 <csma> zakim, next item
15:04:32 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:04:34 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:04:45 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:05:13 <StellaMitchell> csma: any agenda ammendments?
15:05:50 <StellaMitchell> csma: will approve minutes from last week at next telecon
15:06:05 <StellaMitchell> csma: minutes of June 23 are missing
15:06:17 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:06:48 <csma> next item
15:07:09 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aabb
15:07:17 <Gary> zakim, aabb is me
15:07:17 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
15:07:20 <StellaMitchell> csma: any news from liaisons?
15:08:01 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  OWL's ??? is delayed
15:08:55 <StellaMitchell> s/???/implementation report/
15:09:03 <Zakim> + +49.715.22.aacc
15:09:09 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:09:18 <StellaMitchell> sandro: I believe Hassan was the scribe on June 23 - it was a short meeting
15:10:03 <Harold> zakim, aacc is me
15:10:03 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:10:18 <Zakim> +??P8
15:11:06 <csma> next item
15:11:36 <StellaMitchell> action-896 continued
15:12:01 <AdrianP> done
15:12:09 <StellaMitchell> action-895 closed
15:12:09 <trackbot> ACTION-895 Ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments closed
15:12:23 <StellaMitchell> action-894 ??
15:12:40 <StellaMitchell> action-893, action-892-continued
15:13:32 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:13:49 <StellaMitchell> action-889 closed
15:13:49 <trackbot> ACTION-889 Answer FAQ 4.1 closed
15:14:05 <StellaMitchell> action-888 closed
15:14:06 <trackbot> ACTION-888 Answer FAQ 4.3 closed
15:14:12 <StellaMitchell> action-887 closed
15:14:12 <trackbot> ACTION-887 Answer FAQ 4.2 closed
15:14:33 <StellaMitchell> action-886 closed
15:14:33 <trackbot> ACTION-886 Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 closed
15:15:48 <StellaMitchell> action-883 closed
15:15:49 <trackbot> ACTION-883 Answer FAQ 3.7 closed
15:16:47 <StellaMitchell> csma: faq 3.9, 3.10, 3.11 have not been assigned
15:18:28 <StellaMitchell> ....are there volunteers for these faq sections?
15:19:37 <StellaMitchell> leora: I can do 3.9
15:19:56 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:20:03 <StellaMitchell> action: csma to ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11
15:20:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-897 - Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].
15:20:19 <StellaMitchell> action: leora to answer faq 3.9
15:20:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-898 - Answer faq 3.9 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-08-04].
15:20:39 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:20:45 <StellaMitchell> action-875 continued
15:23:03 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:23:10 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:23:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Sandro, Gary, Harold, ??P8, [IBM]
15:23:19 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:23:19 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:24:32 <StellaMitchell> action-858 closed
15:24:32 <trackbot> ACTION-858 Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense closed
15:24:47 <StellaMitchell> action-857 closed
15:24:47 <trackbot> ACTION-857 Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog closed
15:25:47 <StellaMitchell> action-850 continued
15:25:54 <StellaMitchell> action-833 continued
15:26:47 <StellaMitchell> action-891 closed
15:26:47 <trackbot> ACTION-891 Post media-type registration to IETF lists closed
15:26:55 <StellaMitchell> action-890 closed
15:26:55 <trackbot> ACTION-890 Answer FAQ 3.8 closed
15:27:27 <StellaMitchell> action-870 closed
15:27:28 <trackbot> ACTION-870 Contact MOZ closed
15:27:33 <StellaMitchell> action-874 closed
15:27:33 <trackbot> ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed
15:27:38 <StellaMitchell> action-859 closed
15:27:38 <trackbot> ACTION-859 Annoucne to swi-prolog closed
15:27:45 <StellaMitchell> action-863 closed
15:27:45 <trackbot> ACTION-863 Contact Jos de Roo closed
15:27:55 <csma> next item
15:28:09 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:28:09 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:28:26 <StellaMitchell> csma: we have had two new public comments since last week
15:28:40 <StellaMitchell> ...from ontoprise about ontobroker support of RIF
15:29:07 <StellaMitchell> s/from/one is from/
15:29:24 <StellaMitchell> csma:  what constitutes an implementation report?
15:29:48 <StellaMitchell> sandro: I will check into this
15:30:45 <StellaMitchell> harold: can you ask them if I can create a link to advertise ontobroker support?
15:30:59 <StellaMitchell> csma:  I will ask
15:32:02 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Jul/0005.html
15:32:04 <sandro> action: sandro to look for a template for implementation reports
15:32:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-899 - Look for a template for implementation reports [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-08-04].
15:32:27 <StellaMitchell> csma: the other email to the public list has two fairly minor comments
15:32:34 <StellaMitchell> ...means that he reviewed the specs
15:32:57 <StellaMitchell> ...we need to reply to that email
15:33:42 <StellaMitchell> cw: will start the wiki page to respond to these public comments
15:33:45 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
15:33:54 <StellaMitchell> s/to respond/to organize the responses/
15:33:55 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:34:08 <sandro> zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
15:34:08 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
15:34:18 <csma> next item
15:36:53 <StellaMitchell> cw: we need evidence for the AC that there is community interest in RIF...public comments are one indication of that, and there are also other ways it can be shown
15:37:48 <StellaMitchell> csma: public comment period was to end at the end of this week...do we want to extend this?
15:38:22 <StellaMitchell> cw:  csma, do you expect industry comments on PRD?
15:38:44 <StellaMitchell> ....or implementation commitments?
15:39:17 <StellaMitchell> csma: mark proctor is interested in doing an implementation
15:40:03 <StellaMitchell> ...ctic also interested in doing an implementation
15:40:27 <StellaMitchell> ...ilog/ibm, oracle, adrian-with-tibco
15:41:21 <StellaMitchell> cw: commitment to do an implemention is more powerful than public comments
15:41:48 <StellaMitchell> cw: and what about the academic rules community...is there interest in RIF?
15:42:22 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:42:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Gary, Harold, AdrianP, ChrisW, Sandro
15:42:51 <StellaMitchell> mk: yes, have seen interest. there is some confusion among people about who can send reviews/comments?
15:43:20 <StellaMitchell> s/comments?/comments/
15:44:14 <StellaMitchell> csma: so, do we have enough of a story to move to the next step?
15:44:42 <StellaMitchell> sandro: we should send a reminder that deadline is approaching
15:44:55 <StellaMitchell> cw: we planned on having 3 weeks to put together CR case
15:45:16 <StellaMitchell> harold: do we need to make it more clear that anyone in the public can comment?
15:45:39 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  it is already stated in all documents
15:46:14 <sandro> "We're appreciate a comment from anyone who has taken the time to read the draft"
15:47:35 <StellaMitchell> adrian: I can contact event processing and decision ?? communities
15:47:50 <AdrianP> I will remind the CEP community to send comments
15:48:20 <AdrianP> the CEP community is very interested in rules, reaction rules
15:49:10 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Transition_Request
15:49:19 <StellaMitchell> csma: then we prepare our case and send a request to CR?
15:49:24 <StellaMitchell> sandro: yes, see above as example
15:49:39 <StellaMitchell> s/to CR/to move to CR/
15:50:45 <StellaMitchell> csma: so we are looking at end of August, early Sept to move to CR
15:52:05 <StellaMitchell> zakim, next item
15:52:05 <Zakim> agendum 6. "RIF and XML data" taken up [from csma]
15:52:40 <StellaMitchell> Topic: UCR
15:53:02 <StellaMitchell> csma: ILOG person pointed out to me that UCR doesn't have PRD examples
15:53:25 <StellaMitchell> leora: also, other shortcomings of UCR - it should be redone
15:53:52 <StellaMitchell> csma: that's much more work than that I was suggesting
15:54:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> the problem with UCR is that
15:54:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> (1) the examples that we do have aren't covered by dialects like BLD and PRD
15:54:26 <StellaMitchell> adrian: original goal of UCR was to show how rules can be used
15:54:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> (2) we don't have non-trivial examples of what RIF can be used for.
15:54:58 <StellaMitchell> cw: is anyone willing to work on this?
15:55:27 <StellaMitchell> leora: I can work on the UCR examples
15:56:22 <StellaMitchell> ....could use help from harold and michael about non-trivial applications of bld
15:56:41 <StellaMitchell> cw: one use case supported at the core level is mapping between data sources
15:57:23 <Harold> Another non-trivial use case: Dave's OWL 2 RL rules in RIF.
15:57:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> Thank you, Harold.
15:58:09 <StellaMitchell> Topic: telecon schedule for August
15:58:43 <StellaMitchell> csma: I will not be able to attend a telecon until aug 25th or after
15:58:58 <StellaMitchell> sandro: i'll be on vacation aug 11
15:59:31 <StellaMitchell> cw: we should meet within the next 2 weeks to discuss CR
16:00:25 <StellaMitchell> cw:  I can do a telecon aug 11
16:00:53 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:01:07 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (78%), Gary (7%), Harold (13%)
16:01:47 <StellaMitchell> csma: next meeting, aug 11?
16:01:56 <StellaMitchell> sandro: how about next week,?
16:03:49 <StellaMitchell> csma: next meeting is aug 11, cw can attend, sandro maybe, csma maybe
16:04:30 <StellaMitchell> cw: subsequent meeting aug 25th
16:05:06 <StellaMitchell> Topic: RIF and XML data
16:05:49 <StellaMitchell> csma:  I updated this document since last week
16:06:31 <StellaMitchell> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=RIF%2BXML_data-schema 
16:08:06 <StellaMitchell> csma:  I still need to do more work on the xpath/xquery part o the specification
16:08:28 <StellaMitchell> s/part o/ part of/
16:09:21 <StellaMitchell> csma: the document is currently not easy to read because it assumes deep familiarity with XDM (xpath/xquery data model)
16:11:11 <StellaMitchell> csma: Dave and Gary have looked over the document - any further comments from them?
16:11:27 <StellaMitchell> dave: basically what I said in my email
16:12:12 <StellaMitchell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0041.html
16:12:48 <StellaMitchell> s/email/email (link below)/
16:13:45 <StellaMitchell> sandro: I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to look at this yet. How do you deal with xml element names? just concatenating?
16:13:49 <StellaMitchell> csma: yes
16:14:00 <StellaMitchell> sandro: this may be ugly
16:15:13 <StellaMitchell> sandro: ...because in the xml world, namespace names do not always end with punctuation
16:16:40 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:16:40 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:17:04 <StellaMitchell> dave: in the current proposal, he has 2 versions for each case
16:17:13 <StellaMitchell> ...but needs extra details about the qname
16:19:08 <StellaMitchell> csma:  would like to avoid specific syntax for handling xml data source
16:20:22 <StellaMitchell> csma: gary commented that we didn't consider using functions and predicates, but only frames
16:21:19 <StellaMitchell> ...but frames can be written as predicates
16:22:58 <StellaMitchell> gary:  I think we need extra hints with the import  - I don't think we can automatically detect what will be the best encoding
16:23:46 <StellaMitchell> sandro: another possibility is that we could generate all the mappings that might be useful
16:24:19 <StellaMitchell> csma: yes, I prefer this option
16:24:22 <StellaMitchell> gary: sounds good
16:26:02 <StellaMitchell> dave:  what is the argument for  multiple mappings?
16:26:14 <StellaMitchell> ...better interoperation if there is only one mapping
16:26:33 <StellaMitchell> gary: ordering will be lost in the frames mapping
16:27:42 <StellaMitchell> gary: different mappings are better for different situations
16:28:18 <AdrianP> a general query construct woul be helpful, not just for integrating XML data, but e.g. SQL queries, SPARQL queries, XQuery/XPath queries, ...
16:28:42 <StellaMitchell> gary: with multiple representations, we may have a problem when translating back
16:29:19 <StellaMitchell> s/back/back to xml/
16:31:12 <StellaMitchell> cw: can you update the document by the end of august?
16:31:14 <StellaMitchell> csma: yes
16:31:20 <StellaMitchell> cw: aob?
16:31:30 <ChrisW> action: csma to update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document)
16:31:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-900 - Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].
16:31:37 <Zakim> -Gary
16:31:38 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
16:31:42 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:31:43 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:46 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:47 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:31:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc,
16:31:49 <Zakim> ... Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP
16:31:49 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:31:49 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:31:53 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:54 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:33:02 <ChrisW> stella, you see the minutes
16:33:03 <ChrisW> ?
16:33:07 <StellaMitchell> yes, thanks
16:33:18 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro
16:40:38 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:40:40 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:40:41 <Zakim> -csma
16:40:41 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:40:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc, Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP
16:40:54 <csma> csma has left #rif