14:45:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-irc
14:45:30 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
14:45:30 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:42 <csma> rrsagent, make log public
14:45:52 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html csma
14:46:33 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 21 July 2009
14:46:42 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:47:03 <csma> Scribe: Adrian Paschke
14:48:08 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0025.html
14:48:40 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: #rif Telecon 21 July 2009; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0025.html
14:50:11 <csma> Regrets: Michael Kifer, Leora Morgenstern, Axel Polleres
14:50:21 <csma> zakim, reset agenda
14:50:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'reset agenda', csma
14:50:28 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:50:28 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:51:00 <csma> Regrets: Michael Kifer, Leora Morgenstern, Axel Polleres, Chris Welty
14:51:35 <csma> agendum admin
14:51:40 <csma> agenda+ admin
14:52:01 <csma> agenda+ liaisons
14:52:43 <csma> agenda+ LC publicity, comments, implementations
14:52:49 <csma> agenda+ FAQ
14:53:16 <csma> agenda+ RIF-XML data
14:53:35 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:53:35 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:53:43 <csma> agenda+ admin
14:53:50 <csma> agenda+ liaisons
14:53:57 <csma> agenda+ review actions
14:54:07 <csma> agenda+ LC publicity, comments, implementations
14:54:13 <csma> agenda+ FAQ
14:54:22 <csma> agenda+ RIF-XML data
14:54:35 <csma> agenda+ test cases
14:54:40 <csma> agenda+ AOB
14:55:22 <csma> Hello CorentinF! Who are you?
14:55:55 <CorentinF> hi
14:56:18 <csma> Hi
14:56:25 <csma> Who are you?
14:56:33 <CorentinF> i'm a trainee at inria, i work on a rif-bld implementation
14:57:15 <csma> Are you a member of the WG?
14:57:27 <CorentinF> no
14:57:36 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
14:57:42 <CorentinF> should i leave?
14:58:25 <csma> Well, telecons are for WG members only. But if you can tell me a little bit more about your implementation, we will have that on the record...
14:58:32 <csma> And, then, you can leave :-)
14:58:39 <csma> What is your time frame?
14:58:49 <csma> For implementation, I mean
14:59:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:19 <Zakim> +??P3
14:59:58 <Zakim> +kjetil
15:00:41 <Zakim> -kjetil
15:00:49 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3
15:01:02 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:01:02 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:01:20 <Zakim> +tobias
15:01:40 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:01:54 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see AdrianP, tobias
15:02:01 <csma> zakim, I am tobias
15:02:01 <Zakim> ok, csma, I now associate you with tobias
15:02:24 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see AdrianP, tobias
15:02:38 <csma> zakim, tobias is me
15:02:39 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:02:58 <csma> Corentin, what kind of implementation are developing?
15:03:08 <csma> Translating BLD to/from what language?
15:03:34 <csma> What is your target date for a working prototype?
15:03:58 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:04:21 <csma> scribenick: AdrianP
15:04:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:29 <CorentinF> well for now it's a very experimental work, meant to get an interperter for presentation syntax
15:04:52 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
15:04:59 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:05:03 <Harold>  zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:05:03 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:05:08 <csma> You don't use the XML syntax?
15:05:34 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:06:05 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aaaa
15:06:10 <AdrianP> CorentinF you might be interested in this demo by IBM implementing RIF BLD
15:06:12 <AdrianP> http://ruleml-challenge.cs.nccu.edu.tw/?q=node/22
15:06:19 <Gary> zakim, aaaa is me
15:06:19 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
15:09:03 <CorentinF> we planned to make an xml concrete parser as well, but as it's to be integrated with a research project software, the "interchange" aspect is not really critical
15:09:57 <csma> Great (although only the XML syntax is normative, of course)
15:10:36 <csma> Corentin, can you sent a comment to the public comment list, so that we have your email address. And any comments you have about BLD would be great, too
15:10:46 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-comments/
15:11:04 <csma> the public comment address is: public-rif-comments@w3.org
15:11:34 <CorentinF> sure
15:11:39 <csma> Corentin, you will have to leave, now.
15:11:47 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/
15:11:52 <csma> We will keep in contact via the mailing list
15:12:47 <CorentinF> CorentinF has left #rif
15:13:20 <csma> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:13:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see AdrianP, csma, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, Gary
15:13:48 <AdrianP> scribenick, AdrianP
15:14:01 <csma> next item
15:14:29 <csma> PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
15:15:05 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:15:27 <StellaMitchell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/att-0021/2009-07-07-rif-minutes.html
15:15:33 <Zakim> +kjetil
15:16:04 <csma> RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
15:16:07 <AdrianP> resolved minutes accepted
15:17:35 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:17:46 <AdrianP> csma: next telecon to review the comments?
15:17:53 <Gary> I will be unable to attend on Aug 4
15:18:13 <AdrianP> I could attend first week of August
15:19:01 <AdrianP> Harold: Chris mentioned that we might need a reasonable number of comments
15:19:48 <AdrianP> I will be travelling next week, but will try to call in
15:20:02 <AdrianP> csma: next telecon 28th of July
15:20:40 <csma> Sandro, will you join the telecon?
15:20:49 <csma> next item
15:20:51 <sandro> Sorry, csma, no.
15:21:02 <sandro> (I hope you saw my e-mail about this.)
15:21:06 <AdrianP> csma: liaisons
15:21:36 <csma> Sandro, is there any condition re amount or quality of public comments for moving to CR?
15:22:01 <sandro> There is no defined line.    We just have to make the case that there's been wide public review.
15:23:23 <csma> Sandro, as OWL liaison, could you push them to comment?
15:23:23 <sandro> It MAY be enough to have gotten the word out and be ignored.   It would be much better to have simple messages along the lines of "this looks okay."
15:23:45 <sandro> action: sandro to get an OWL-WG comment on RIF
15:23:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-892 - Get an OWL-WG comment on RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
15:24:40 <csma> next item
15:25:00 <AdrianP> Adrian: W3c HCLS BIORDF will take a look for a micro array experiemts use case
15:25:34 <AdrianP> action 889 continued
15:25:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 889
15:26:25 <AdrianP> action 885 closed
15:26:25 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 885
15:26:32 <AdrianP> action-885 closed
15:26:32 <trackbot> ACTION-885 Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL closed
15:26:44 <AdrianP> action-884 closed
15:26:44 <trackbot> ACTION-884 Answer FAQ 3.6 closed
15:26:56 <AdrianP> action-881 closed
15:26:56 <trackbot> ACTION-881 Contact Aberdeen colleagues. closed
15:27:05 <AdrianP> action-876 closed
15:27:05 <trackbot> ACTION-876 Contact Said Tabet. closed
15:27:21 <AdrianP> action-874 closed
15:27:21 <trackbot> ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed
15:27:31 <AdrianP> action-872 closed
15:27:31 <trackbot> ACTION-872 Contact Igor Mozetic. closed
15:27:50 <AdrianP> action-869 closed
15:27:50 <trackbot> ACTION-869 Contact Giorgos closed
15:28:00 <AdrianP> action-868 closed
15:28:00 <trackbot> ACTION-868 Contact Michael Sintek closed
15:28:08 <AdrianP> action-867 closed
15:28:09 <trackbot> ACTION-867 Contact Luis Polo. closed
15:28:33 <AdrianP> action-866 closed
15:28:33 <trackbot> ACTION-866 Contact Markas? closed
15:28:56 <AdrianP> action-861 closed
15:28:56 <trackbot> ACTION-861 Announce inside oracle, drules, jess closed
15:29:04 <AdrianP> action-860 closed
15:29:04 <trackbot> ACTION-860 Announce to hp internal and jena-dev closed
15:29:17 <AdrianP> action-856 closed
15:29:17 <trackbot> ACTION-856 Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB closed
15:29:32 <AdrianP> action-853 closed
15:29:32 <trackbot> ACTION-853 Update XML syntax for Core and BLD to use xml:lang attribute for consts closed
15:30:13 <AdrianP> action-852 closed
15:30:13 <trackbot> ACTION-852 Review Multiple* test cases closed
15:30:30 <AdrianP> action-852 pending review
15:30:59 <AdrianP> action-845 complete
15:31:10 <AdrianP> action-845 pending review
15:31:25 <AdrianP> action-842 closed
15:31:25 <trackbot> ACTION-842 Provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow closed
15:32:02 <AdrianP> action-784 closed
15:32:02 <trackbot> ACTION-784 Talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation closed
15:32:48 <AdrianP> action-782 closed
15:32:48 <trackbot> ACTION-782 Talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe closed
15:33:29 <AdrianP> action-780 closed
15:33:29 <trackbot> ACTION-780 Refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) closed
15:34:50 <csma> next item
15:35:02 <Harold> We had two comments from David Mott:
15:35:02 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Jun/0000.html
15:35:02 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Jun/0001.html
15:35:36 <AdrianP> Harold: two comments by IBM
15:35:51 <AdrianP> Harold: we should have a Wiki page where we collect all public comments
15:37:35 <Harold> Another comment from Nick Bassiliades, Greece, is pending: he could not yet send it for list-technical reasons.
15:38:25 <AdrianP> csma: wheneve we here about RIF implementations we should ask people to send a comment
15:38:50 <AdrianP> csma: comment like I read the spec, is better than no comment
15:38:59 <AdrianP> csma: encourage all contacts to send comments
15:39:28 <AdrianP> csma: Implementations?
15:39:44 <AdrianP> csma: should start listing implementation plans
15:40:34 <AdrianP> Harold: Alexander Riazanov plans to implement BLD in his Vampire Theorem Proofer
15:41:16 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Implementations
15:41:22 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Implementation_plans
15:41:27 <DaveReynolds> That one isn't empty
15:42:26 <AdrianP> action, csma change implementation page
15:42:38 <Harold> The current RIF Implementation plans table is outdated.
15:42:51 <AdrianP> action: csma to change implementation page
15:42:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-893 - Change implementation page [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
15:43:02 <Harold> I came up with this:
15:43:05 <Harold> Possible RIF Implementations
15:43:06 <Harold> (probably not TextGarden from above Implementation_plans):
15:43:06 <Harold> dlvhex: Core (see above Implementation_plans)
15:43:06 <Harold> Flora-2: BLD (Michael Kifer et al.)
15:43:06 <Harold> Oracle: PRD (Gary Hallmark et al.)
15:43:06 <Harold> IBM/ILOG: PRD (CSMA et al.)
15:43:08 <Harold> W3C: Core (translator to N3, Sandro Hawke)
15:43:10 <Harold> RuleML Inc: BLD (translator to Sigma Kee Vampire, Alexandre Riazanov)
15:43:12 <Harold> FU Berlin: PRD (translator to Prova / Reaction RuleML, Adrian Paschke et al.)
15:43:14 <Harold> NRC: Core (translator to OO jDREW / Datalog RuleML, Harold Boley et al.)
15:44:54 <AdrianP> csma: can we put it on the Wiki page
15:45:51 <AdrianP> action: csma add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations)
15:45:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-894 - Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
15:46:26 <Harold> I don't know if possible Ontoprise and Flora-2 implementations might be related.
15:46:54 <AdrianP> csma: did not get feedback from Ontoprise yet
15:47:27 <Harold> Mark Proctor's DROOLS work should be highly relevant for PRD.
15:47:36 <AdrianP> Dave: Pascal and Markus are currently not able to do RIF implementations due to lack of resources
15:47:40 <csma> CTIC interested in trying a PRD implementation for SPARQL + construct
15:47:53 <csma> CTIC also interested in developed a RIF editor
15:49:03 <csma> Adrian possibly developing an implementation for Tibco
15:49:12 <AdrianP> Adrian: translation to Prova
15:49:37 <AdrianP> Adrian: academic collaboration project with TIBCO, working on a translator
15:49:56 <AdrianP> Gary: work on a PRD implementation
15:50:39 <AdrianP> csma: heared that ontoprise and Vienna are working on a new dialect  using FLD
15:50:56 <AdrianP> Harold: non-monotonic dialect or just using FLD?
15:51:11 <AdrianP> csma: a new dialect using FLD
15:51:53 <AdrianP> csma: CoronteF at INRIA working on a BLD implementation
15:52:24 <AdrianP> Harold: wonder if Stella uses one of the tools from Hasan or Sandro
15:52:35 <AdrianP> Stella: yes, I use the tool from Hasan
15:52:45 <AdrianP> Harold: can everyone download it
15:52:59 <AdrianP> Stella: can look-up the link
15:53:29 <Harold> Hassan could be asked if we can publicly point to his tool
15:53:35 <AdrianP> Harold: meant that it can count a first implementation
15:53:36 <Harold> as a first implementation.
15:54:25 <Harold> (if only the syntax part, but it already helped Stella et. al a lot.)
15:54:41 <AdrianP> csma: you mentioned an IBM demo
15:54:57 <AdrianP> Adrian: yes, that was demo given last year at the Rules Challenge at RuleML-2008
15:55:10 <AdrianP> Adrian: need to see if it can count as a BLD implementation
15:55:32 <AdrianP> I will ask her if she will also send comments about RIF
15:56:12 <csma> next item
15:56:34 <AdrianP> action: AdrianP ask participants of  RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments
15:56:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AdrianP
15:56:48 <AdrianP> action: Adrian ask participants of  RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments
15:56:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-895 - Ask participants of  RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-07-28].
15:56:57 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ#How_do_I_serialize_RIF_rules_in_RDF.3F
15:57:31 <AdrianP> csma: how do we proceed for FAQ; just approve them?
15:58:35 <AdrianP> Harold: it is an inoffical page 
15:58:44 <AdrianP> Harold: so enough to just approve them
16:04:29 <AdrianP> Harold: under 3.5. linked "defines" is hard to spot, should be made more explicit
16:04:54 <AdrianP> csma: there is a commercial implementation by Ontoprise
16:05:27 <AdrianP> csma: Ontobroker supports RIF
16:06:25 <AdrianP> csma: should publish FAQ as early as possible
16:06:55 <AdrianP> csma: maybe should take it as is and publish even without all quesions answered
16:07:09 <AdrianP> Harold: could everyone complete the FAQ questions
16:07:25 <AdrianP> Stella: 4.4 wasn't sure about it
16:07:51 <AdrianP> csma: Dave suggestion to review it later is good
16:08:08 <AdrianP> csma: 4.4. could be "not yet"
16:08:20 <DaveReynolds> I've made the link to SWC more explicit in FAQ 3.5
16:08:27 <csma> next item
16:08:31 <sandro> the FAQ is already published.
16:08:57 <csma> Sandro, it is not referenced from the WG front page
16:09:02 <sandro> yes it is.
16:09:10 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:09:16 <DaveReynolds> Yes it is right at the top
16:10:11 <Harold> FAQ is published but it says: "This is an unofficial draft FAQ"
16:10:16 <AdrianP> csma: shall we ask someone from the working group to review it
16:10:23 <AdrianP> Sandro: sounds good
16:11:41 <AdrianP> csma: added editors notes
16:13:18 <AdrianP> csma: looked at Xpath 2.0 - reworked document relates to more general elements in the XML stack 
16:15:04 <AdrianP> Sandro: we have DTB built-ins, we could have standard built-ins for XML, i.e. Xpath built-ins
16:16:31 <AdrianP> csma: should be based on the XML data model
16:17:10 <csma> next item
16:18:02 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
16:18:17 <AdrianP> Sandro: maformedLists
16:19:04 <AdrianP> Stella: could nothing to be concluded from the test cases?
16:20:13 <AdrianP> Stella: conclusion could be similar to ArbitraryEntailment
16:20:30 <AdrianP> Stella: ArbitraryEntailment test case
16:20:58 <AdrianP> Sandro: malformed lists are structures too
16:21:00 <sandro> "Malformed lists are structures, too.  There's nothing illogical about them."
16:21:00 <StellaMitchell> s/conclusion could/csma is saying wording is similar to/
16:21:01 <Harold> A few months ago, "malformed lists" were renamed into "general open lists".
16:21:38 <AdrianP> Sandro: is a list with a tail which is not a list
16:21:44 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Terms
16:21:55 <AdrianP> Harold: part 4
16:21:56 <Harold> List terms.
16:21:57 <StellaMitchell> s/could nothing be conclused from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
16:22:39 <Harold> Such general open lists correspond to Lisp's dotted lists [Steele90].
16:22:54 <StellaMitchell> s/could nothing be concluded from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
16:23:46 <AdrianP> Stella: maybe a longer description helps to make it more clear
16:24:04 <AdrianP> csma: if there is not a positive entailment it means there is a contradiction
16:24:17 <AdrianP> csma: should at least entail the premise
16:24:28 <sandro> description: "The tail of a list in BLD doesn't have to be a list.    It can be like a LISP dotted pair; it's just another kind of structure."
16:24:48 <AdrianP> Gary: think the premise is entailed
16:26:23 <sandro> if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-string(?y) then  is-funky-structure(?x)
16:26:34 <AdrianP> Harold: problem is when there is a variable we cannot control if it is bound to a list or another term
16:27:30 <sandro> csma:   if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-list ?y then  is-list  List( ?x | ?y )
16:27:48 <AdrianP> csma: shall we change description of test case?
16:28:23 <AdrianP> csma: test says it is not a syntax error if the tail is not a lists
16:29:27 <AdrianP> Sandro: premise is in fact a list, according to the definition of BLD
16:29:53 <sandro> although as I recall from LISP it's called a "dotted pair".
16:30:38 <Harold> Lisp terminology:  dotted pair: (a  . b)  --  dotted list: (a b c . d)
16:31:45 <Harold> However,  (a b c . d) is just 'presentation syntax' for nested dotted pairs (a . (b . (c . d)))
16:32:06 <csma> PROPOSED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
16:32:17 <DaveReynolds> Ok to extend
16:32:19 <AdrianP> +1
16:32:37 <csma> RESOLVED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
16:35:28 <Harold> "Note that the last condition above restricts Itail only when its last argument is in Dlist. If the last argument of Itail is not in Dlist, then the list is a general open one and there are no restrictions on the value of Itail except that it must be in Dind. "
16:35:47 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Semantic_Structures
16:36:30 <Harold> 5. Ilist and Itail are used to interpret lists
16:38:33 <AdrianP> Sandro: premise does not entail itself
16:39:34 <AdrianP> Sandro: need to ask Jos
16:39:53 <sandro> action: sandro to ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
16:39:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-896 - Ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
16:42:04 <AdrianP> Adrian: plan to have a W3C RIF workshop at RuleML-2009
16:42:05 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:42:07 <Zakim> -Gary
16:42:10 <Zakim> -Harold
16:42:11 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:42:28 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-rif-minutes.html csma
16:42:28 <sandro> RRSAgent, list attendees
16:42:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', sandro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:42:54 <csma> rrsagent, list attendees
16:42:54 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', csma.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:05 <sandro> RRSAgent, show attendees
16:43:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'show attendees', sandro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, who is here?
16:43:14 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
16:43:22 <sandro> RRSAgent, list present
16:43:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list present', sandro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:27 <sandro> RRSAgent, who is here?
16:43:27 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
16:43:37 <csma> rrsagent, list attendance
16:43:37 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendance', csma.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:51 <AdrianP> ScribeNick, Adrian
16:44:01 <AdrianP> ScribeNick: Adrian
16:44:30 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:45:27 <Zakim> -csma
16:52:04 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:52:06 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:52:07 <Zakim> Attendees were AdrianP, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, Gary, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Sandro
17:17:15 <csma> csma has left #rif