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14:28:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-forms-irc
14:28:35 <wiecha> rrsagent, make logs public
14:28:43 <wiecha> Meeting: Forms WG Weekly Telecon
14:28:48 <wiecha> Chair: Charlie Wiecha
14:28:57 <wiecha> Scribe: Steven
14:29:13 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jul/0005.html
14:29:25 <wiecha> Regrets: John, Leigh, Uli
14:42:03 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:42:10 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:42:15 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
14:42:15 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
14:46:24 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:24 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:25 <Zakim> +Steven
14:47:13 <nick1> nick1 has joined #forms
14:47:43 <nick1> zakim, code?
14:47:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick1
14:48:05 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:48:12 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:48:17 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:48:38 <nick1> zakim, who is in the phone?
14:48:38 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, nick1.
14:48:55 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:48:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:48:56 <Zakim> +ebruchez
14:50:08 <nick1> zakim, who is here?
14:50:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez
14:50:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see ebruchez, nick1, RRSAgent, Zakim, wiecha, Steven, trackbot
14:50:27 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jul/0005.html
14:50:42 <nick1> nick1 has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jul/0005.html
14:50:54 <Steven> Topic: Actions
14:51:09 <Steven> Charlie: I think the actions agenda item is stale; you're OK on that Nick?
14:51:12 <Steven> Nick: Yes
14:51:26 <Steven> Charlie: I shall be updating my actions before I go on vacation
14:51:35 <Steven> ... anything else?
14:51:40 <Steven> Nick: no
14:52:08 <Steven> Charlie: There is an item on the backplane, maybe we can report on that
14:52:29 <Steven> Topic: Backplane
14:52:50 <Steven> Charlie: Our original charter was extended 6 months to October, which is a month shy of TPAC
14:53:08 <Steven> ... we want to present some of our work there
14:53:34 <Steven> ... Initially we identified low-level technologies that needed unifying over W3C
14:53:46 <Steven> ... events, and model-views
14:53:55 <Steven> ... for instance
14:54:28 <Steven> ... That developed into an architecture for opening up the browser to allow apps from different spaces
14:54:38 <Steven> ... such as the Ubiquity library
14:55:02 <Steven> ... Jack Jansen of CWI has been implementing SMIL3 into the framework
14:55:12 <Steven> ... MarkB had already put some SMIL bits in
14:55:28 <Steven> ... Jack has aded the more basic timeline stuff
14:55:56 <Steven> s/aded/added/
14:56:11 <Steven> ... it starts to look like a more generic technology
14:56:23 <Steven> ... I'm planning to add some ODF
14:57:02 <Steven> ... We're combining the stuff into a demonstrator
14:57:12 <Steven> ... (a finance app)
14:57:31 <Steven> ... there's some SVG in there too
14:57:52 <Steven> ... but the message is that we can extend the browser with new technologies
14:58:06 <Steven> q+
14:58:14 <Steven> ack me
15:00:28 <Steven> Steven: An XG is to define a work area
15:00:36 <Steven> ... we started off abstractly
15:00:57 <Steven> ... but now have a concrete demonstrator for pluggin bits of functionality together
15:01:21 <Steven> ... I believe that the XG should recommend that W3C formally defines that architecture as future work
15:01:37 <Steven> Charlie: We have a couple of months left
15:01:44 <Steven> ... anyone want to join in?
15:02:13 <Steven> ... We were thinking of Google mapstype stuff
15:03:32 <Steven> Steven: Some of that is already in there
15:03:51 <Steven> ... a range control bound to a pair of numbers
15:04:09 <Steven> ... with a certain class
15:04:19 <Steven> ... displays a map segment that is draggable
15:04:40 <Steven> Charlie: Would be a good kicking-off point
15:04:52 <Steven> ... there's lots of other things too
15:05:09 <Steven> ... SVG, SMIL,XForms, give pretty good coverage of functionalities
15:05:28 <Steven> ... ODF as an online technology will look like a surprise too.
15:06:06 <Steven> Charlie: Is there a forum?
15:06:11 <Steven> .. at TPAC
15:06:43 <Steven> Steven: Yes, extensibility
15:07:13 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/Overview.html#Group
15:07:23 <Steven> Steven: Oh wow, registration is already open!
15:08:58 <Steven> Charlie: HTML5 extensibility will be a hot button
15:09:17 <Steven> Topic: XForms 1.1 PER
15:09:59 <Steven> Steven: I'm afraid that Ralph didn't reply
15:11:09 <Steven> .. It looks like we'll have to wait now until I am back
15:11:16 <Steven> Charlie: Away for three weeks?
15:11:18 <Steven> Steven: Yes
15:11:37 <Steven> Charlie: Any black-out periods?
15:11:53 <Steven> Steven: No, none threatened; there is no reason to have to hurry
15:14:13 <Steven> Topic: Custom event information
15:14:31 <Steven>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jun/0073.html 
15:14:31 <Steven>   http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/PassingEventContext
15:15:42 <Steven> Erik: What kind of attributes do you want to have?
15:16:01 <Steven> .. .there are two kinds, some are bindings like ref and some multiple nodesets
15:16:42 <Steven> ... in the XForms context element, we should be able to carry any type of context information
15:16:52 <Steven> .. Ipropose a new attribute, @select
15:17:01 <Steven> ... taken from XSLT
15:17:12 <Steven> s/.. I/... I /
15:17:28 <Steven> ... do we need this?
15:17:41 <Steven> ... or could we use @value?
15:18:07 <Steven> ... we might introduce variables in the future
15:18:21 <Steven> ... and it would be good if it looked like the XSLT variables
15:18:44 <Steven> ... however we have a large number of attributes
15:18:57 <Steven> ... you could argue against adding more
15:20:25 <Steven> ... though I don't have anactual solution
15:20:31 <Steven> s/an/an /
15:21:01 <Steven> ... XPath 2.0 has non-homogeneous sequences
15:21:11 <Steven> ... with no XPath 1.0 equivalent
15:21:44 <Steven> ... but nodeset would be a bad name if it doesn't return a nodeset
15:22:04 <Steven> Charlie: Deprecate nodeset?
15:22:22 <Steven> ... use @select in an XPath 2.0 environment
15:22:34 <Steven> Erik: We use nodeset on bind and repeat
15:22:52 <Steven> ... XSLY foreach doesn something similar
15:22:57 <Steven> s/Y/T/
15:23:03 <Steven> s/sn/s/
15:23:25 <Steven> Erik: We have to be restricted to a nodeset there
15:23:47 <Steven> Charlie: It depends on how we introduce variables
15:24:24 <Steven> Erik: If you want to iterate over 1..10, you can do it in XSLT, but not in XForms
15:25:07 <Steven> ... you need to change the processign model to handle the case
15:25:32 <Steven> s/sign/sing/
15:27:46 <Steven> Erik: in XForms 1.1 we don't have too many ubiquitous attributes, but @context is coming
15:27:59 <Steven> ... that makes 6
15:28:11 <Steven> ... itemset isn't very different from repeat
15:28:46 <Steven> ... replacing @nodeset with @select, it would make sense to allow other things than nodesets being returned
15:29:15 <Steven> Charlie: Are there usecases where the nodeset changes radically?
15:29:26 <Steven> Erik: Updating dropdowns for instance
15:29:58 <Steven> ... where the implementor has to do the work, it is not defined in detail in the spec
15:31:19 <Steven> Charlie: Nick, do you want to use @nodeset here
15:31:31 <Steven> Nick: Yes, but I want to expand what a nodeset holds
15:31:44 <Steven> ... so I agree that the name is misleading
15:31:56 <Steven> ... and @select would then be better
15:32:00 <Steven> q+
15:34:05 <Steven> Steven: There is a problem that we already use the name "select" in XForms for something else
15:34:33 <nick1> we could introduce ;) itemset
15:34:34 <Steven> Erik: It is going to be confusing for people who know XSLT
15:34:46 <Steven> ack me
15:35:00 <Steven> Erik: If it is not consistent
15:36:18 <Steven> Steven: I understand, it is just a shame that we confuse the XForms user, to prevent confusion for the XSLT user
15:36:22 <Steven> q+
15:37:55 <Steven> ack me
15:38:40 <Steven> Steven: There is another issue, that I think we have been consistent in the past, is that we use nouns for attributes, not verbs
15:38:49 <Steven> Erik: That would argue for @value
15:39:39 <Steven> ... which we use now for bindings
15:39:45 <Steven> Steven: On <output>
15:40:06 <Steven> Erik: It is used as a string in general
15:40:34 <Steven> Erik: On setvalue too, case
15:41:01 <Steven> ... and some nested elements, like setfocus
15:41:21 <Steven> ... name childelement, etc
15:41:46 <nick1> from the output element : 'An XPath expression to be evaluated. The string result of the evaluation is rendered by the form control.'
15:41:53 <Steven> ... <case> is the surprise
15:42:04 <Steven> ... in all of them they are used as strings
15:42:28 <Steven> ... but I think wecan make it compatible
15:42:34 <Steven> s/wecan/we can/
15:43:10 <Steven> Charlie: <output> with a media type?
15:43:21 <Steven> Erik: No need, it will still be used as as tring
15:43:32 <Steven> s/tring/string/
15:44:44 <Steven> Steven: It sounds as if we can define it consistently
15:46:15 <Steven> Charlie: Sounds like it could work
15:46:35 <nick1> I'm leaning toward value
15:47:08 <Steven> Charlie: Looking at the open issues on the wiki page
15:47:20 <Steven> Should the element support the "model", "ref", "bind", and even "value" attributes as well?  
15:47:20 <Steven> Other actions can support xf:context, including xf:send, and dialog xf:show/xf:hide if introduced.
15:48:01 <Steven> Erik: THe show action in our implementation supports nested context element
15:48:08 <Steven> ... to pass information to the dialog
15:48:13 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
15:49:00 <Steven> ... related to the encapsulation pattern in OO systems
15:49:14 <nick1> sounds a good idea to add it to those actions
15:50:28 <Steven> Erik: THe wiki example uses @origin; that is a mistake should be @value
15:50:38 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
15:55:00 <Steven> Charlie:THe potential for XPath 2.0 is interesting
15:55:11 <Steven> s/:TH/: Th/
15:56:06 <ebruchez> the setvalue/@origin in the example
15:56:16 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:56:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:56:34 <Zakim> -wiecha
15:56:36 <Zakim> -Steven
15:56:36 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:07:48 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:07:49 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:07:52 <Zakim> Attendees were wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez
17:42:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms