IRC log of bpwg on 2009-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:28:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:28:06 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-irc
13:28:08 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
13:28:08 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:28:10 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:28:10 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:28:11 [trackbot]: Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:28:11 [trackbot]: Date: 07 July 2009
13:29:13 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started
13:29:13 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #bpwg
13:29:20 [Zakim]: +DKA
13:29:31 [adam]: zakim,code?
13:29:31 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), adam
13:29:39 [miguel]: miguel has joined #bpwg
13:29:41 [DKA]: DKA has joined #bpwg
13:29:53 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:29:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see DKA
13:29:54 [Zakim]: On IRC I see DKA, miguel, adam, Zakim, RRSAgent, yeliz, francois, trackbot
13:30:01 [Zakim]: +adam
13:30:13 [francois]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jul/0010.html
13:30:16 [francois]: Chair: DKA
13:30:54 [francois]: Regrets: nacho, jeff, abel, brucel, achuter, tom, phila
13:31:33 [Zakim]: +Francois
13:31:46 [EdC]: EdC has joined #bpwg
13:32:00 [SeanP]: SeanP has joined #bpwg
13:32:24 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:32:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see DKA, adam, Francois
13:32:26 [Zakim]: On IRC I see SeanP, EdC, DKA, miguel, adam, Zakim, RRSAgent, yeliz, francois, trackbot
13:32:40 [Zakim]: +??P1
13:32:47 [yeliz]: zakim, ??P1 is yeliz
13:32:47 [Zakim]: +yeliz; got it
13:32:56 [yeliz]: zakim, mute me
13:32:56 [Zakim]: yeliz should now be muted
13:33:14 [Zakim]: +miguel
13:33:30 [Zakim]: +SeanP
13:34:24 [Zakim]: +EdC
13:34:59 [francois]: Scribe: francois
13:35:26 [francois]: Regrets+ chaals
13:36:14 [jo]: jo has joined #bpwg
13:36:21 [jo]: zakim, code?
13:36:21 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
13:36:36 [francois]: Topic: Administrativa
13:36:42 [francois]: DKA: do we still have a WG?
13:36:57 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2009Jul/0001.html FD's announcement of charter extension
13:36:59 [Zakim]: + +0208995aaaa
13:37:11 [jo]: zakim, aaaa is me
13:37:11 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
13:37:28 [francois]: francois: charter extension approved until the end of the year!
13:37:30 [jo]: /me is happy to have his existential doubts settled
13:37:35 [francois]: dka: happy to exist.
13:38:15 [francois]: dka: question about calls during summer period. I'll be away end of July beginning of August.
13:38:28 [francois]: ... That does not necessarily entail we need to cancel the calls.
13:38:36 [EdC]: Should we poll people present?
13:39:06 [francois]: francois: Yes, I'll be away next two weeks.
13:39:34 [francois]: dka: I just want to avoid having a call scheduled and people end up waiting for other participants to join.
13:39:52 [EdC]: I have no plans to be absent in the coming 5 weeks.
13:40:05 [jo]: /me is away from July 29 to Aug 17
13:40:17 [francois]: ... Francois, do you think you can set up a poll?
13:40:54 [francois]: francois: sure. One thing is that if Jo and Dan are both away, we should cancel the corresponding call(s). BPWG can't survive without chairs.
13:41:04 [DKA]: ACTION-986?
13:41:04 [trackbot]: ACTION-986 -- François Daoust to enquires as to status of CSS Media Queries Rec -- due 2009-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
13:41:04 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/986
13:41:11 [francois]: Topic: Use of media queries
13:41:37 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jul/0009.html Status of CSS media queries
13:41:52 [francois]: dka: let's start with ACTION-986 on francois
13:41:55 [francois]: ACTION-986?
13:41:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-986 -- François Daoust to enquires as to status of CSS Media Queries Rec -- due 2009-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
13:41:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/986
13:43:52 [francois]: francois: the important point is that the CSS media queries spec is not blocked for lack of implementations.
13:44:06 [francois]: ... There are some in mobile browsers although not in all browsers, for sure.
13:44:25 [francois]: ... It really depends on what we want to put in the best practices.
13:44:34 [EdC]: Shouldn't the BP have a caveat regarding the implementation of various query elements, i.e. "device-width" vs. "color" or "orientation" ?
13:44:58 [francois]: dka: Some people wanted to remove all mentions to CSS media queries. I think it should be emphasized for mobile developers.
13:45:22 [francois]: adam: What is it that we want to specifically call out about CSS media queries?
13:45:57 [francois]: dka: I think it is particularly relevant to mobile developers, because it allows to use specific device capabilities.
13:46:22 [francois]: ... it's not particularly dynamic capabilities, but still a good thing to have.
13:46:57 [francois]: adam: OK. I think the possibilities are pretty limited for me as a developer, but I agree.
13:47:39 [jo]: q+
13:48:16 [DKA]: ack jo
13:48:37 [francois]: dka: francois, do you think you can take an action to craft some text?
13:48:56 [EdC]: I suspect that device-width is generally supported in CSS media queries because of other elements such as viewport.
13:49:18 [francois]: francois: Sure. I think I agree with Adam that it's not that super useful. Some properties are not exactly supported, and the possibilities are not super wow.
13:49:43 [EdC]: q+
13:49:43 [francois]: jo: I think it's actually not a best practice.
13:50:41 [francois]: ... If Dan can have the tons of developers he knows that consider use of CSS media queries as a best practice to explain how they use it.
13:50:48 [francois]: ... that would be great.
13:50:59 [DKA]: ack edc
13:51:33 [adam]: q+
13:51:39 [francois]: EdC: CSS media queries are only useful in the context of viewports.
13:52:43 [francois]: dka: ok, why don't you give me an action to see how people use CSS media queries around here?
13:52:57 [francois]: ... and an action on Francois to craft some nominal text on CSS media queries.
13:53:56 [francois]: adam: I think francois should not spend time for the time being. Let's fine people who use it in practice.
13:54:23 [francois]: ... If you can find somebody who has some insight here, then that would be useful.
13:54:24 [francois]: Q+
13:54:35 [francois]: dka: I'm happy to take an action.
13:55:03 [francois]: ACTION: dan to find people who use CSS media queries to tell whether it's a BP
13:55:03 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-994 - Find people who use CSS media queries to tell whether it's a BP [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-07-14].
13:55:03 [DKA]: ack francois
13:55:52 [francois]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG
13:55:52 [adam]: q-
13:57:04 [francois]: francois: just to note that BPWG's home page actually uses CSS media queries to send different stylesheets depending on the incoming devices.
13:57:15 [francois]: dka: OK, that's one data point.
13:57:29 [jo]: q+
13:57:42 [francois]: adam: I still need to update a few links in the document.
13:57:43 [EdC]: Wasn't there a long-standing issue with canvases and svg?
13:58:04 [francois]: jo: I have some typos for you, adam. There's also quite a few open actions and issues against this document.
13:58:12 [francois]: ... We need to resolve them.
13:58:29 [francois]: adam: Yes. There's also some SVG/canvas issue opened on Jeff.
13:59:15 [francois]: dka: Is there anything that prevents us from resolving the issues?
13:59:21 [francois]: ... Let's try to enumerate them.
14:00:16 [francois]: jo: let me paste the URI to the opened issues and actions.
14:00:16 [jo]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/14
14:01:34 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-262
14:01:37 [francois]: ISSUE-262?
14:01:37 [trackbot]: ISSUE-262 -- Discuss the option to offer choices of presentation as a best practices for mobile web apps -- OPEN
14:01:37 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/262
14:01:45 [francois]: dka: Is this something that we can close?
14:02:07 [EdC]: Isn't 262 handled somehow in the practice re: classes of devices?
14:02:08 [francois]: adam: can somebody summarize what it means?
14:02:28 [DKA]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20090619#d1e1515
14:03:17 [francois]: dka: the issue is whether the "Use Device Classification to Simplify Content Adaptation" is a best practice or not.
14:03:26 [francois]: adam: the Google's home page does this.
14:03:39 [francois]: dka: I don't think this is very controversial, actually.
14:03:44 [francois]: ... I suggest that we resolve it.
14:04:10 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: CLose issue-262 and keep section 3.6.5 in mwabp.
14:04:19 [francois]: s/Use Device Classification to Simplify Content Adaptation/Offer Users a Choice of Interfaces/
14:04:23 [EdC]: +1
14:04:26 [francois]: +1
14:04:28 [DKA]: +1
14:04:28 [adam]: +1
14:04:30 [miguel]: +1
14:04:41 [SeanP]: +1
14:04:53 [DKA]: RESOLUTION: CLose issue-262 and keep section 3.6.5 in mwabp.
14:04:56 [yeliz]: +1
14:05:01 [francois]: RESOLUTION: CLose issue-262 and keep section 3.6.5 in mwabp.
14:05:04 [francois]: close ISSUE-262
14:05:04 [trackbot]: ISSUE-262 Discuss the option to offer choices of presentation as a best practices for mobile web apps closed
14:05:37 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-263 - how to keep the screen alive?
14:05:43 [francois]: ISSUE-263?
14:05:43 [trackbot]: ISSUE-263 -- How to keep the screen alive (re null gestures) - what to recommend? -- OPEN
14:05:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/263
14:05:56 [francois]: dka: I suggest that we close it. We didn't go anywhere.
14:06:11 [francois]: adam: I think it would rather be a bad practice to keep the screen alive. I'd rather close this.
14:06:41 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We close issue-263 and drop the idea of keeping the screen alive as a bp.
14:06:46 [DKA]: +1
14:06:50 [francois]: +1
14:06:54 [adam]: +1
14:06:55 [EdC]: 0
14:06:56 [miguel]: +1
14:07:28 [francois]: dka: Yes, this would be left to implementations.
14:07:38 [francois]: RESOLUTION: We close issue-263 and drop the idea of keeping the screen alive as a bp.
14:07:46 [francois]: close issue-263
14:07:46 [trackbot]: ISSUE-263 How to keep the screen alive (re null gestures) - what to recommend? closed
14:08:00 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-264 - progressive enhancement
14:08:17 [francois]: adam: I think this was done when I rewrote the section on the delivery context.
14:08:22 [francois]: ... So that's complete.
14:08:25 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close Issue-264 as it has been completed.
14:08:28 [adam]: +1
14:09:09 [adam]: http://www.w3.org/TR/mwabp/#bp-devcap-scripting (captures aspects of the original concept)
14:09:24 [francois]: +1
14:09:27 [DKA]: +1
14:09:46 [francois]: RESOLUTION: Close Issue-264 as it has been completed.
14:09:57 [EdC]: 0
14:10:09 [francois]: close ISSUE-264
14:10:09 [trackbot]: ISSUE-264 How to rephrase progressive enhancement to make it fit as a BP? closed
14:10:27 [DKA]: ISSUE-265?
14:10:27 [trackbot]: ISSUE-265 -- Discussion of Jonathan's Submission ref separation of structure presentation and behavior at http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhpvgnmn_54d7cbhrhn -- OPEN
14:10:27 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/265
14:10:29 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-265 - Jonathan's submission
14:10:39 [francois]: adam: I had an action to respond to this.
14:11:10 [francois]: ... I should just complete my action and respond, I guess.
14:11:39 [francois]: dka: I think we should close the issue and leave you finish your action.
14:11:39 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close issue-265 and keep Adam's action open to write up a note to Jonathan why he does not think this makes it as a best practice.
14:11:48 [adam]: +1
14:11:56 [DKA]: +1
14:12:13 [francois]: +1
14:12:16 [francois]: RESOLUTION: close issue-265 and keep Adam's action open to write up a note to Jonathan why he does not think this makes it as a best practice
14:12:22 [francois]: close issue-265
14:12:22 [trackbot]: ISSUE-265 Discussion of Jonathan's Submission ref separation of structure presentation and behavior at http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhpvgnmn_54d7cbhrhn closed
14:12:40 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-268 - Test cases to illustrate MWABP
14:12:47 [DKA]: ISSUE-268?
14:12:47 [trackbot]: ISSUE-268 -- Test cases to illustrate mobile web application best practices -- OPEN
14:12:47 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/268
14:12:51 [francois]: q+
14:12:56 [DKA]: ack francois
14:13:10 [jo]: ack me
14:13:14 [DKA]: ACTION-721?
14:13:14 [trackbot]: ACTION-721 -- François Daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test Aaron static/dynamic example -- due 2008-08-14 -- OPEN
14:13:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/721
14:13:45 [francois]: francois: I miserably failed to complete my action here
14:13:55 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We abandon action-721 and issue-268 for this version of the Mobile Web Application Best Practices and defer it to v2.
14:14:03 [francois]: ... I suggest we drop it. It was supposed to be the start of a complete testing framework.
14:14:27 [francois]: adam: It would not be trivial to do it.
14:14:28 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We abandon action-721 and issue-268 for this version of the Mobile Web Application Best Practices.
14:14:33 [EdC]: +1
14:14:34 [francois]: +1
14:14:36 [DKA]: +1
14:14:47 [adam]: +1 (I wish we had more bench-marking / testing but it would be a very big task).
14:15:25 [francois]: RESOLUTION: We abandon action-721 and issue-268 for this version of the Mobile Web Application Best Practices.
14:15:34 [francois]: close ACTION-721
14:15:34 [trackbot]: ACTION-721 Prepare a report's form to fill to test Aaron static/dynamic example closed
14:15:39 [francois]: close ISSUE-268
14:15:39 [trackbot]: ISSUE-268 Test cases to illustrate mobile web application best practices closed
14:15:59 [DKA]: ISSUE-279?
14:15:59 [trackbot]: ISSUE-279 -- 4.3.3 Provide Disclosures that are Timely and Accessible -- OPEN
14:15:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/279
14:16:03 [francois]: dka: [mumbling about mobileAppOK]
14:16:26 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-279 - Provide timely disclosures
14:16:33 [francois]: adam: I think this is done.
14:16:35 [DKA]: ACTION-861?
14:16:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-861 -- Bryan Sullivan to propose text ref ISSUE-279 -- due 2008-10-15 -- OPEN
14:16:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/861
14:16:46 [francois]: dka: is the action completed?
14:16:59 [francois]: adam: yes, I think Bryan did that.
14:17:13 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The text has moved on since the points in ISSUE-279 were made so we will close ISSUE-279 and ACTION-861.
14:17:27 [EdC]: So these are no longer relevant...
14:17:27 [DKA]: +1
14:17:29 [EdC]: +1
14:17:32 [francois]: +1
14:17:44 [DKA]: q?
14:17:53 [francois]: RESOLUTION: The text has moved on since the points in ISSUE-279 were made so we will close ISSUE-279 and ACTION-861.
14:17:58 [francois]: close ISSUE-279
14:17:58 [trackbot]: ISSUE-279 4.3.3 Provide Disclosures that are Timely and Accessible closed
14:18:02 [francois]: close ACTION-861
14:18:02 [trackbot]: ACTION-861 Propose text ref ISSUE-279 closed
14:18:22 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE 280 - User awareness and control
14:18:26 [DKA]: ISSUE-280?
14:18:26 [trackbot]: ISSUE-280 -- 3.3 User awareness and control -- OPEN
14:18:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/280
14:18:39 [francois]: adam: same here, it predates the discussion we had during last F2F. I think it can be safely closed.
14:19:07 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The text has moved on since the points made in ISSUE-280 so we will close ISSUE-280.
14:19:13 [DKA]: +1
14:19:19 [adam]: +1
14:19:19 [EdC]: 0
14:19:50 [francois]: RESOLUTION: The text has moved on since the points made in ISSUE-280 so we will close ISSUE-280.
14:19:55 [DKA]: ISSUE-281?
14:19:55 [trackbot]: ISSUE-281 -- MWA should disclose their capabilities in HTTP requests, to allow service adaptation -- OPEN
14:19:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/281
14:19:56 [francois]: close ISSUE-280
14:19:56 [trackbot]: ISSUE-280 3.3 User awareness and control closed
14:20:41 [francois]: adam: It's been dormant for some time now.
14:20:49 [francois]: ... It's out of scope.
14:20:57 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: WRT ISSUE-281, this is out of scope for MWABP so we will close ISSUE-281 and take no action.
14:21:01 [adam]: +1
14:21:02 [francois]: ... I'm for closing it
14:21:05 [DKA]: +1
14:21:25 [EdC]: +1
14:21:33 [francois]: i/adam: It's/Topic: ISSUE-281 - capabilities disclosure in HTTP requests/
14:21:37 [francois]: RESOLUTION: WRT ISSUE-281, this is out of scope for MWABP so we will close ISSUE-281 and take no action.
14:21:40 [francois]: close ISSUE-281
14:21:40 [trackbot]: ISSUE-281 MWA should disclose their capabilities in HTTP requests, to allow service adaptation closed
14:21:42 [DKA]: ISSUE-287?
14:21:43 [trackbot]: ISSUE-287 -- Propose merging 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 in MWABP -- OPEN
14:21:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/287
14:21:59 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-287 - merging 3.1.1 and 3.1.2
14:22:09 [francois]: dka: does this still make sense?
14:22:25 [EdC]: no longer relevant => close it.
14:22:28 [francois]: adam: instead of merging, we replaced them with application data. So the topic's moot.
14:22:40 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Issue-287 is moot so we will close issue-287.
14:22:43 [EdC]: +1
14:22:53 [DKA]: +1
14:23:16 [adam]: +1
14:23:17 [francois]: +1
14:23:18 [francois]: RESOLUTION: Issue-287 is moot so we will close issue-287.
14:23:21 [francois]: close ISSUE-287
14:23:21 [trackbot]: ISSUE-287 Propose merging 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 in MWABP closed
14:23:34 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-290 - desirable goal of MWABP statements
14:23:36 [DKA]: ISSUE-290?
14:23:36 [trackbot]: ISSUE-290 -- Desirable Goal of MWABP statements -- OPEN
14:23:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/290
14:23:50 [francois]: adam: Jonathan raised this during last F2F. We had no further discussion on this.
14:24:09 [EdC]: q+
14:24:11 [francois]: ... I don't think desirable goals would add much value, they would just add text.
14:24:37 [EdC]: q-
14:24:47 [francois]: dka: considering Johnathan is not here, should we give him some kind of deadline to come up with some text?
14:24:55 [francois]: adam: He did propose some document.
14:25:00 [DKA]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Mar/0132.html
14:26:24 [DKA]: q?
14:26:26 [francois]: dka: I'm not so happy about so quickly abandoning this idea.
14:26:44 [francois]: ... What do you think, francois?
14:27:32 [francois]: francois: it's related to the icons we want to have, but don't really have for the time being, right?
14:27:56 [francois]: adam: It's close but not exactly the same. We should still keep the icons.
14:28:36 [francois]: dka: the desirable goals are more text we may want to add to each statement.
14:28:53 [francois]: ... It just seems like a bit of work.
14:28:58 [francois]: q+
14:29:14 [francois]: ... Within 3.4 for instance, we could include a bit more text about performance
14:30:21 [DKA]: ack francois
14:30:22 [francois]: ... Why don't we leave it open and somebody send a message to Jonathan about ISSUE-290?
14:31:51 [francois]: francois: I'm unclear about the added value compared to the existing structure of the document. Consider the section on User-Experience, it's pretty clear the BPs are about improving the user experience.
14:32:39 [francois]: dka: It may be a way to flag a BP that sits in a section and that also has an impact on some other section.
14:33:01 [francois]: ... That would be kind of a low impact way to do what Jonathan is suggesting.
14:33:40 [francois]: adam: As a principal, I don't have any objection against this.
14:34:44 [francois]: ... Sections preambles already try to mention that. For instance the Conservative User of Resources and the section on User Experience
14:36:28 [DKA]: Adam should look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP.
14:36:56 [DKA]: ACTION: Adam to look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP.
14:36:56 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-995 - Look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP. [on Adam Connors - due 2009-07-14].
14:37:18 [francois]: dka: so we'll leave ISSUE-290 opened for the time being.
14:37:25 [francois]: ... with an attached action
14:37:57 [DKA]: ISSUE-291?
14:37:57 [trackbot]: ISSUE-291 -- widget best practices -- OPEN
14:37:57 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/291
14:38:12 [francois]: Topic: ISSUE-291 - widget best practices
14:38:36 [francois]: dka: my view is that we should not do this.
14:38:44 [francois]: ... and that we should close the issue.
14:38:50 [francois]: ... Not because it's not important.
14:39:18 [EdC]: At least an explicit statement in the document about the non-inclusion of widgets?
14:39:24 [francois]: ... But because there is not enough implementation experience in the wild to say things about that at this time.
14:39:43 [francois]: ... I talked with Art Barstow, chair of the Webapps WG about a Widget Best Practices document.
14:40:03 [francois]: ... We agreed that if it were to be done, the Web apps WG would be the correct place to do it.
14:40:15 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will not add widget BPs to MWABP and will not work on a special widget BP doc at this time; close ISSUE-291.
14:40:17 [adam]: +1
14:40:18 [EdC]: q+
14:40:25 [DKA]: ack edc
14:40:55 [francois]: EdC: will you put a note that we exclude widgets from the document?
14:41:06 [adam]: http://www.w3.org/TR/mwabp/#webapp-defined
14:41:11 [francois]: adam: There's already some text in 1.3.2. I think it's fine as it stands.
14:41:56 [francois]: dka: I think we need to modify that text. Remove the words "being considered"
14:42:43 [francois]: ... Two different things. In one sense, the BPs are applicable to widgets, because it's just a package for a web app.
14:43:06 [francois]: ... But there's some specific stuff in widgets, such as localization.
14:43:11 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will not add widget BPs to MWABP and will not work on a special widget BP doc at this time; close ISSUE-291. We will put an explicit statement in the doc stating that widgets-specifc BPs are out in scope because not enough implementation experience exists at time of writing.
14:43:26 [francois]: +1
14:43:27 [EdC]: +1
14:43:32 [adam]: +1
14:43:58 [miguel]: +1
14:44:08 [francois]: RESOLUTION: The group will not add widget BPs to MWABP and will not work on a special widget BP doc at this time; close ISSUE-291. We will put an explicit statement in the doc stating that widgets-specifc BPs are out in scope because not enough implementation experience exists at time of writing.
14:44:20 [DKA]: Also think you should change the reference to: http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/
14:44:55 [francois]: close ISSUE-291
14:44:55 [trackbot]: ISSUE-291 widget best practices closed
14:46:29 [francois]: dka: one open issue remaining on MWABP, that's good!
14:47:33 [francois]: Topic: CT - URI patterns
14:47:44 [francois]: dka: Eduardo, you wanted to talk about that.
14:47:54 [EdC]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jun/0101.html
14:48:57 [francois]: EdC: this is Francois' response to my comment that explains why the note is correct, but is terse. The meaning is likely to be lost by readers.
14:49:30 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jun/0108.html Eduardo's proposed clarification
14:49:42 [EdC]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jun/0108.html
14:50:05 [francois]: EdC: The sentence in the guidelines has all the semantics required, but is a bit unclear. So I suggest to add a clarifying sentence.
14:50:56 [francois]: dka: can we turn that into a proposed resolution?
14:52:11 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The URI of the request plays no part in determining wehter request header values are modified and in particular,whether or not a urI PATTERN IS MENTIONED IN 4.2.9 IS NOT MATERIAL TO THIS JUDGEMNT
14:52:12 [EdC]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: add the following sentence to the 2nd note of 4.1.5: "For the sake of clarity: a URI not matching those specified in 4.2.9 does not
14:52:12 [EdC]: imply that the corresponding site delivers content unsuitable for mobile devices."
14:52:56 [francois]: jo: I just wanted to avoid the double negative.
14:53:53 [francois]: ... I think it is better to say that the URI of the request plays no part here, that is basically what we're trying to say
14:53:54 [francois]: q+
14:53:58 [francois]: ack fran
14:53:59 [DKA]: ack framc
14:54:51 [francois]: francois: agree with Jo. Double negative is usually unclear.
14:55:14 [EdC]: "The purpose of the note was to emphasize the opposite: the absence of a
14:55:15 [EdC]: mobile indication in a URI pattern does not mean that HTTP header field
14:55:15 [EdC]: values should be transformed."
14:55:27 [DKA]: +1 to Jo's resolution and giving the editor some leeway.
14:55:52 [francois]: jo: can you leave it to the editor to come up with some text on the basis that it will be easier to understand?
14:56:58 [jo]: ACTION: Jo to add agreed text to 4.1.5 trying to avoid inserting too many negatives, not, not
14:56:59 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-996 - Add agreed text to 4.1.5 trying to avoid inserting too many negatives, not, not [on Jo Rabin - due 2009-07-14].
14:57:36 [DKA]: -1 to tea.
14:57:40 [francois]: jo: Eduardo, do you agree?
14:57:46 [jo]: +1 to tea party
14:58:35 [francois]: EdC: shouldn't it rather be "and whether or not the URI pattern matches one of those defined in 4.2.9"?
14:59:04 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The URI referred to inthe request plays no part in determining whether request header values are modified and in particular,whether or not a a URI ,matches the PATTERNs MENTIONED IN 4.2.9 IS NOT MATERIAL TO THIS JUDGEMNT
15:00:06 [EdC]: +1
15:00:08 [Zakim]: -jo
15:00:49 [DKA]: +1
15:01:07 [francois]: RESOLUTION: The URI referred to in the request plays no part in determining whether request header values are modified and in particular,whether or not a a URI, matches the patterns mentioned in 4.2.9 IS NOT MATERIAL TO THIS JUDGEMNT
15:01:29 [francois]: dka: That sounds like a lovely coda to our great call, today!
15:01:42 [francois]: ... Thanks everyone!
15:01:44 [Zakim]: -DKA
15:01:46 [miguel]: bye
15:01:47 [Zakim]: -Francois
15:01:49 [Zakim]: -adam
15:01:49 [yeliz]: bye
15:01:53 [Zakim]: -EdC
15:01:54 [Zakim]: -miguel
15:01:58 [francois]: [Call adjourned]
15:01:59 [miguel]: miguel has left #bpwg
15:02:00 [Zakim]: -yeliz
15:02:24 [Zakim]: -SeanP
15:02:26 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended
15:02:28 [Zakim]: Attendees were DKA, adam, Francois, yeliz, miguel, SeanP, EdC, +0208995aaaa, jo
15:02:50 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:27:37 [francois]: zakim, bye
15:27:37 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #bpwg
15:27:41 [francois]: RRSAgent, bye
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: dan to find people who use CSS media queries to tell whether it's a BP [1]
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-irc#T13-55-03
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Adam to look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP. [2]
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-irc#T14-36-56
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jo to add agreed text to 4.1.5 trying to avoid inserting too many negatives, not, not [3]
15:27:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-bpwg-irc#T14-56-58