<trackbot> Date: 03 June 2009

<smaug> is there a call today?

<Travis> yep!

<smaug> just a minute

<smaug> ok, now I need to find the phonenumber...

<shepazu> scribeNic: MSjacob

<shepazu> scribeNick: MSjacob

new telcon times

<shepazu> shepazu: we have a new participant, Daniel from Google Wave

shepazu: flexible on new telcom time
... Send preferences for telcom times to www-DOM mailing list.

Mutation Events

shepazu: useful, pain, not performant

Travis: can't deprecate

shepazu: can put something in place to replace them
... shouldn't change the way they work now

Travis: agree

shepazu: bad perf better than breaking content

Travis: are all mutation events slow?

shepazu: will put in spec the ones that perform slowly, use these that operate better

Travis: JS Ninjas proposed alternate API (maybe from Dean Edwards) watchSelector, mutation event w/ callback based on a filter
... probably use cases for this and the mutation events
... selector based solution doesn't let you watch attributes
... workaround: use x path
... mostly need to know when one node changes

shepazu: steve sauders says CSS selectors end up being "malperformant" because people don't realize there are optimal and suboptimal ways of selecting
... after dev, will this selector-based solution actually be more performant?

Travis: it could be

shepazu: should have conversation on mailing list, if someone can implement it would be great to work on facts

Travis: could try to harvest feedback on mutation events, if there is a problem we could solve w/ a new performant mutation event we could just add that
... maybe officially deprecate but wouldn't be obsolete

smaug: agree

shepazu: two reports from mozilla: we dont have plans to implement DOMsubtreemodified, we might even remove some of the others
... probably very small X-browser mutation events

Travis: doesn't say we don't include in DOM L3 events
... action to start dicuss on mailing list about possible additional solutions that solve the mut. events problem, find existing perf problems and maybe ways to solve them

<smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

<smaug> Gecko does support DOMSubtreeModified

<smaug> I implemented it :p

Travis: would love to see more edits of spec as they come

shepazu: hixie requested more explanation of what each event should do and when it should be fired
... next thing to go through and add more detail about the events
... jacob: come up with stuff on your own, run things by the rest of team

Travis: and doug and the rest of the guys

<shepazu> ACTION: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].

shepazu: action for Travis: send in proposal from the JS (CSS) Ninjas

diagrams, because they are pretty

Travis: did you use SVG?

shepazu: yes

<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-flow

shepazu: added window and made more pretty to events flow

Travis: beautiful
... do these events bubble outside windows (like window in window)

shepazu: they don't
... if you have an iframe, it will not leave the iframe
... maybe in HTML5, hixie might have provided a way to do that

Travis: i think IE does do something like that

shepazu: one exception maybe, in same domain
... should be secure, but shouldn't do it in other scenarios

Travis: makes sense

shepazu: maybe worth noting events do not bubble outside the window
... by default, events do not bubble outside window. Under certain circumstances, a user agent may allow this when it's determined not to be a security risk

Travis: jacob needs to look at seamless

shepazu: unrelated, for svg we're looking at a way to do parameters. for example, a button you want to reuse but alter params.
... useful way of messaging things between frames

<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/d3e-keyflow.svg

<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/keyflow-gecko.svg

shepazu: first one may be nice and pretty but not as accurate
... first chart attempt at indicating how the text input is generated

Travis: I think we need to do the same thing for IEs moddle

shepazu: please do
... if we can get b/w IE and Mozilla teams (and maybe Daniel from Google Wave) to provide script library to let people use new model on older stuff and go forward with this new model

Travis: I love it

shepazu: rare opportunity to get it right in a majority of languages. will also bring in a intern'l expert in on this.
... do we black box it or actually work up an IME model

Travis: If there's a great public IME creation system, that would be great

shepazu: Certain points on a slower connection that you might want to only do things after certain chars (like a space after a word in an AJAX lookup scenario)

Travis: looks like the FF one is pretty accurate. Need to do some thought analysis on this.

shepazu: happy to prettify / unify these
... would like to include as appendix in DOM3 events for interest in the old models
... smaug make sure yours is accurate, Travis MSjacob make a similar one for IE
... then I will try to unify

<shepazu> ACTION: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Confirm gecko keyflow diagram [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-06-10].

<shepazu> ACTION: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Create and send in IE keyflow diagram [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].

shepazu: don't forget to send in preferred times for telecon
... any other questions

Travis: link to spec is latest editors draft?

shepazu: yes

Travis: are the parts that are more/less stable that should be focused on?

shepazu: unstable: mutation events, keyboard events
... and wheel events

Travis: never closed on line/pixel scrolling

shepazu: got into ideas in different kinds of wheel events
... more stable: mouse events
... people have asked for additional mouse events
... plans for more advanced ui events (multi touch, pen and tablet)

<shepazu> Wacom

shepazu: should consult with waycom
... hoping to get them involved in what they want to see on the web
... right now they deal with designers on the desktop, but things are moving to the web

<shepazu> trackbot, make minutes

<trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found ScribeNick: MSjacob
Inferring Scribes: MSjacob
Default Present: Shepazu, smaug, Travis, MSjacob
Present: Shepazu smaug Travis MSjacob

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 03 Jun 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html
People with action items: smaug travis