18:29:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:29:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-irc
18:29:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:29:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
18:29:32 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:29:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:29:33 <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2009
18:29:44 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be D3E
18:29:44 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shepazu
18:29:56 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
18:29:56 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
18:30:06 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
18:30:06 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
18:30:07 <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
18:30:08 <Zakim> +Shepazu
18:31:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:32:55 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
18:33:14 <smaug> is there a call today?
18:33:30 <Travis> yep!
18:33:34 <smaug> just a minute
18:38:13 <smaug> ok, now I need to find the phonenumber...
18:40:11 <Zakim> +??P1
18:40:23 <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:40:23 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
18:40:29 <shepazu> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis 
18:40:29 <Zakim> +Travis; got it
18:45:35 <MSjacob> MSjacob has joined #webapps
18:45:51 <shepazu> Zakim, [Microsoft] also has MSjacob 
18:45:51 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
18:46:07 <shepazu> Zakim, Travis also has MSjacob
18:46:07 <Zakim> +MSjacob; got it
18:46:27 <shepazu> scribeNic: MSjacob 
18:46:40 <shepazu> scribeNick: MSjacob
18:47:00 <shepazu> Topic: new telcon times
18:47:37 <shepazu> shepazu: we have a new participant, Daniel from Google Wave
18:49:06 <MSjacob> shepazu:  flexible on new telcom time
18:51:46 <MSjacob> shepazu: Send preferences for telcom times to www-DOM mailing list.
18:52:21 <MSjacob> Topic: Mutation Events
18:52:42 <MSjacob> shepazu: useful, pain, not performant
18:52:46 <MSjacob> Travis: can't deprecate
18:52:57 <MSjacob> shepazu: can put something in place to replace them
18:53:15 <MSjacob> shepazu: shouldn't change the way they work now
18:53:19 <MSjacob> Travis: agree
18:53:29 <MSjacob> shepazu: bad perf better than breaking content
18:53:54 <MSjacob> Travis: are all mutation events slow?
18:54:50 <MSjacob> shepazu: will put in spec the ones that perform slowly, use these that operate better
18:55:57 <MSjacob> Travis: JS Ninjas proposed alternate API (maybe from Dean Edwards) watchSelector, mutation event w/ callback based on a filter
18:56:19 <MSjacob> Travis: probably use cases for this and the mutation events
18:56:31 <MSjacob> Travis:  selector based solution doesn't let you watch attributes
18:56:44 <MSjacob> Travis: workaround: use x path
18:57:30 <MSjacob> Travis: mostly need to know when one node changes
18:58:45 <MSjacob> shepazu:  steve sauders says CSS selectors end up being "malperformant" because people don't realize there are optimal and suboptimal ways of selecting
18:59:19 <MSjacob> shepazu: after dev, will this selector-based solution actually be more performant?
19:01:31 <MSjacob> Travis: it could be
19:02:08 <MSjacob> shepazu: should have conversation on mailing list, if someone can implement it would be great to work on facts
19:02:29 <MSjacob> Travis:  could try to harvest feedback on mutation events, if there is a problem we could solve w/ a new performant mutation event we could just add that
19:02:39 <MSjacob> Travis:  maybe officially deprecate but wouldn't be obsolete
19:03:00 <MSjacob> smaug: agree
19:04:06 <MSjacob> shepazu: two reports from mozilla: we dont have plans to implement DOMsubtreemodified, we might even remove some of the others
19:04:43 <MSjacob> shepazu: probably very small X-browser mutation events
19:04:54 <MSjacob> Travis: doesn't say we don't include in DOM L3 events
19:05:30 <MSjacob> Travis: action to start dicuss on mailing list about possible additional solutions that solve the mut. events problem, find existing perf problems and maybe ways to solve them
19:05:55 <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
19:06:11 <smaug> Gecko does support DOMSubtreeModified
19:06:21 <smaug> I implemented it :p
19:06:59 <MSjacob> Travis: would love to see more edits of spec as they come
19:07:25 <MSjacob> shepazu: hixie requested more explanation of what each event should do and when it should be fired
19:07:48 <MSjacob> shepazu: next thing to go through and add more detail about the events
19:09:18 <MSjacob> shepazu:  jacob: come up with stuff on your own, run things by the rest of team
19:09:30 <MSjacob> Travis: and doug and the rest of the guys
19:09:53 <shepazu> Action: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas
19:09:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
19:10:05 <MSjacob> shepazu:  action for Travis: send in proposal from the JS (CSS) Ninjas
19:11:01 <MSjacob> Topic: diagrams, because they are pretty
19:11:16 <MSjacob> Travis:  did you use SVG?
19:11:31 <MSjacob> shepazu:  yes
19:12:08 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-flow
19:13:02 <MSjacob> shepazu: added window and made more pretty to events flow
19:13:13 <MSjacob> Travis: beautiful
19:13:39 <MSjacob> Travis: do these events bubble outside windows (like window in window)
19:13:42 <MSjacob> shepazu:  they don't
19:13:52 <MSjacob> shepazu:  if you have an iframe, it will not leave the iframe
19:14:06 <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe in HTML5, hixie might have provided a way to do that
19:14:28 <MSjacob> Travis: i think IE does do something like that
19:14:38 <MSjacob> shepazu: one exception maybe, in same domain
19:14:47 <MSjacob> shepazu: should be secure, but shouldn't do it in other scenarios
19:15:05 <MSjacob> Travis: makes sense
19:15:33 <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe worth noting events do not bubble outside the window
19:16:04 <MSjacob> shepazu:  by default, events do not bubble outside window. Under certain circumstances, a user agent may allow this when it's determined not to be a security risk
19:16:33 <MSjacob> Travis: jacob needs to look at seamless
19:17:15 <MSjacob> shepazu: unrelated, for svg we're looking at a way to do parameters. for example, a button you want to reuse but alter params.
19:18:34 <MSjacob> shepazu: useful way of messaging things between frames
19:19:28 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/d3e-keyflow.svg
19:19:40 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/keyflow-gecko.svg
19:21:05 <MSjacob> shepazu:  first one may be nice and pretty but not as accurate
19:22:02 <MSjacob> shepazu: first chart attempt at indicating how the text input is generated
19:22:17 <MSjacob> Travis: I think we need to do the same thing for IEs moddle
19:22:24 <MSjacob> shepazu:  please do
19:23:13 <MSjacob> shepazu:  if we can get b/w IE and Mozilla teams (and maybe Daniel from Google Wave) to provide script library to let people use new model on older stuff and go forward with this new model
19:23:17 <MSjacob> Travis:  I love it
19:24:04 <MSjacob> shepazu:  rare opportunity to get it right in a majority of languages. will also bring in a intern'l expert in on this.
19:24:23 <MSjacob> shepazu: do we black box it or actually work up an IME model
19:24:52 <MSjacob> Travis: If there's a great public IME creation system, that would be great
19:25:45 <MSjacob> shepazu: Certain points on a slower connection that you might want to only do things after certain chars (like a space after a word in an AJAX lookup scenario)
19:26:07 <MSjacob> Travis: looks like the FF one is pretty accurate. Need to do some thought analysis on this.
19:26:18 <MSjacob> shepazu:  happy to prettify / unify these
19:26:43 <MSjacob> shepazu:  would like to include as appendix in DOM3 events for interest in the old models
19:27:27 <MSjacob> shepazu:  smaug make sure yours is accurate, Travis MSjacob make a similar one for IE
19:27:35 <MSjacob> shepazu:  then I will try to unify
19:28:03 <shepazu> Action: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram
19:28:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Confirm gecko keyflow diagram [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-06-10].
19:28:30 <shepazu> Action: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram
19:28:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Create and send in IE keyflow diagram [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
19:29:06 <MSjacob> shepazu:  don't forget to send in preferred times for telecon
19:29:19 <MSjacob> shepazu:  any other questions
19:29:27 <MSjacob> Travis: link to spec is latest editors draft?
19:29:29 <MSjacob> shepazu:  yes
19:29:47 <MSjacob> Travis:  are the parts that are more/less stable that should be focused on?
19:29:59 <MSjacob> shepazu:  unstable: mutation events, keyboard events
19:30:14 <MSjacob> shepazu:  and wheel events
19:30:23 <MSjacob> Travis:  never closed on line/pixel scrolling
19:30:33 <MSjacob> shepazu:  got into ideas in different kinds of wheel events
19:30:56 <MSjacob> shepazu: more stable: mouse events
19:31:05 <MSjacob> shepazu: people have asked for additional mouse events
19:31:40 <MSjacob> shepazu:  plans for more advanced ui events (multi touch, pen and tablet)
19:32:32 <shepazu> Wacom
19:32:42 <MSjacob> shepazu:  should consult with waycom
19:33:05 <MSjacob> shepazu: hoping to get them involved in what they want to see on the web
19:33:17 <MSjacob> shepazu:  right now they deal with designers on the desktop, but things are moving to the web
19:35:53 <Zakim> -smaug
19:49:43 <Zakim> -Travis
19:49:44 <Zakim> -Shepazu
19:49:45 <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has ended
19:49:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, Travis, MSjacob
20:00:58 <shepazu> trackbot, make minutes
20:00:58 <trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:01:08 <shepazu> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html shepazu
20:03:21 <annevk> annevk has joined #webapps
20:10:26 <ArtB> shepazu, when do you plan to publish a new WD of D3E?
20:10:56 <ArtB> nice diagram, btw :)
20:16:34 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
20:55:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webapps
21:50:45 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
22:02:58 <hober> hober has joined #webapps
22:37:57 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #webapps
23:25:56 <inimino> inimino has joined #webapps
23:31:07 <inimino> inimino has joined #webapps
23:48:15 <heycam> heycam has joined #webapps