11:51:18 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
11:51:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/02-xhtml-irc
11:51:20 RRSAgent, make logs public
11:51:22 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
11:51:22 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
11:51:23 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
11:51:23 Date: 02 June 2009
11:52:07 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-06-02-FtF-Agenda
11:52:18 Chair: Roland
11:57:27 mgylling has joined #xhtml
12:00:50 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
12:00:57 +Markus
12:01:08 +Roland
12:01:12 zakim, dial steven-617
12:01:12 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:01:13 +Steven
12:19:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009May/0021.html
12:22:46 Tina has joined #xhtml
12:24:59 http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/xhtml/
12:27:24 -Markus
12:28:14 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/20030123/tests/index.html
12:28:47 [hmm, got disconnected]
12:29:04 In any case he is not yet online
12:29:13 though I spoke to him an hour or so ago
12:31:41 ... and heres another +1 for relaxng
12:31:45 Well, it's good to have some Ralxing expertise around
12:32:01 Masayasu used to be our relax expert
12:34:27 I know relaxng quite well too (consider it my second tongue after swedish)
12:35:16 +Markus
12:36:08 -Markus
12:36:09 -Roland
12:36:09 -Steven
12:36:10 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended
12:36:11 Attendees were Markus, Roland, Steven
12:36:23 what happened ?
12:36:28 We're dropping the call until Shane arrives
12:36:47 staying in the IRC channel
12:36:49 ok please ping me when you're back so
12:38:08 OK
13:02:25 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
13:02:32 +ShaneM
13:04:52 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:05:11 zakim, who is here
13:05:11 ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
13:05:14 zakim, who is here?
13:05:14 On the phone I see ShaneM
13:05:15 On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot
13:05:31 ShaneM: Steven is on a school run, I believe; I'll call in when lunch is done.
13:05:47 thanks
13:08:01 alessio has joined #xhtml
13:09:36 +[IPcaller]
13:09:49 zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
13:09:49 +Alessio; got it
13:10:30 -Alessio
13:12:18 hi all, wasn't it at 13.00 UTC?
13:14:38 yes
13:14:57 Steven is tied up for a little while. roland, what's your plan
13:15:09 ok... thx shane
13:17:39 ... my phone is broken, again. I'm IRC only, folks.
13:17:52 back
13:18:45 hey steven. some of us are here - just waiting on you and roland.
13:19:41 zakim, dial steven-617
13:19:42 ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:19:43 +Steven
13:20:44 Given the number of issues we need to review in order to resubmit the PERs, I request that we schedule another 4 hour vF2F meeting. I suggest we try to do it Tuesday, 2 June at noon UTC: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=6&day=2&hour=12&min=0&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215
13:22:20 +Roland
13:22:35 zakim, who is here?
13:22:35 On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Roland
13:22:36 On IRC I see alessio, ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot
13:23:22 We are starting, MoZ, Alessio, Tina, mgylling
13:23:55 +??P7
13:24:09 zakim, ??P7 is Alessio
13:24:09 +Alessio; got it
13:24:20 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html
13:24:30 Scribe: Steven
13:24:38 Shane: I reduced the list to 11 issues
13:25:23 Shane: We received a formal objection from Ian Hickson
13:25:47 Steven: About text/html?
13:26:00 SHane: Yes, he doesn't like it
13:26:05 s/SH/Sh/
13:26:27 Steven: I believe that doesn't have to be a show-stopper
13:26:43 Shane: And there is Bjoern's mail, that wasn't sent to us
13:27:19 ShaneM: do we have a link to the formal objection?
13:27:19 Steven: I haven't checked it rigorously, but I believe that points to issues he had already sent us
13:27:31 ... but we should make sure
13:28:07 ... that all his issues made it into the issue tracker
13:28:16 Shane: Agreed
13:28:37 Shane: So we have 11 issues that we should look at
13:29:48 Topic: Issue 8407
13:31:07 Shane: I replied to this ages ago
13:31:16 ... anyway appx C is gone
13:32:06 Steven: Who, quite honestly is going to misundertand this?
13:32:12 s/tand/stand/
13:33:15 Shane: We replied, he didn't answer, what do we do?
13:33:26 Steven: we have followed process. Issue closed
13:33:44 Topic: Issue 6227
13:33:55 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec2
13:34:12 Shane: Marked as closed, but
13:34:41 ... we advise against the XML declaration
13:35:00 ... and say use UTF 8 or a higher-level protocol
13:35:28 ... he asks a question, Steven replied, he didn't respond. Therefore we have met process.
13:36:01 Steven: Issue closed
13:36:06 Topic: Issue 703
13:36:15 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec3
13:36:54 Shane: THis is an error in the DTD
13:36:57 s/TH/
13:37:08 s/is is an/This is an
13:37:32 Shane: The DTD has been fixed
13:38:00 ... is it OK for a PER?
13:38:13 Steven: Yes, it doesn't break any browsers, it was a clear error
13:38:39 Topic: Issue 6674
13:38:47 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec4
13:38:57 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml1-20090528
13:38:57 Shane: there is an updated editors'draft
13:39:06 s/draft/ draft/
13:39:39 Updated references section is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml1-20090528/#refs
13:39:41 ... I have split the references into informative and normative
13:39:52 ... need an OK from you
13:41:20 ... POSIX is for MAY, SHOULD etc
13:42:09 ... there was a formal objection because the objector wanted us to point to 5th edition
13:42:28 ... but we decided against that because of the change to name token
13:42:38 s/edition/edition of XML/
13:43:39 Stevrn|: I remember having that discussion
13:43:50 s/Stevrn|/Steven
13:44:57 ... isn't 5th edition just v1.1 back ported to 1.0?
13:45:28 Shane: Regardless
13:46:13 Steven: We deliberately made this decision, so I think we should defend it at the transition call
13:46:56 ... I mean, the real thing we are trying to achieve here is adding schemas
13:47:28 Shane: Anyone object to pointing to 4th edition?
13:47:45 Moz?
13:48:20 Shane: we refer to 2e of namespaces, an obvious improvement
13:49:36 Shane: Are there any of the informative refs things that have to be normative? (I will update the ref to M12N)
13:50:13 ... some of them aren't even referenced
13:50:23 Steven: Chop ém out then.
13:51:00 ... they may be leftovers from appx C
13:51:09 s/ém/'em/
13:51:15 rrsagent, make minutes
13:51:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/02-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:51:33 Shane: Fixing them now
13:52:56 ... three left, MIME, MOD, and MathML
13:52:59 Steven: Looks good
13:53:59 ... closes this issue
13:54:02 Shane: I will reply
13:54:38 Topic: Issue 9110
13:54:39 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec5
13:58:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2002OctDec/0050.html
13:59:24 Shane: Tobias asked us to fix it in XHTML2
13:59:55 ... but Jim Ley brings it to XHTML 1
14:00:09 I said "objects are independent entities within the page. Navigation is local to the
14:00:09 object and its own processing. This is defined in HTML 4."
14:00:15 ... but I claim it is an HTML 4 problem
14:01:29 ... where the question is already answered
14:01:40 Steven: Good answer
14:04:31 Topic: Issue 8411
14:04:31 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec6
14:04:37 Moz : I'm with 4th edition. Since Namespace with XML is still not in sync with 5th edition
14:04:49 Steven: Thanks MOz, that is good
14:04:54 s/MOz/MoZ/
14:08:00 +Markus
14:10:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/dirlang.html#adef-lang
14:10:13 Steven: lang and xml:lang are normatively edfined elsewhere; I think it would be wrong to normatively define anything here
14:10:24 s/edf/def/
14:10:45 ... if you use both, with different values, well, that's your own silly fault
14:11:28 Markus: Are the datatypes the same?
14:11:44 Shane: I think one is a subset of the other
14:12:04 ... so it is possible to have a value of xml:lang that is not a legal value of @lang
14:12:13 ... (in theory)
14:13:55 Steven: Didn't we want both lang and xml:lang for the same reason as name/id
14:14:17 Shane: There is a difference, largely because of accessibility software
14:14:43 ... we were trying to be good XML citizens by including xml:lang
14:15:57 irc bot restart will be required to re-connect with bridge for participant info. Restart will NOT be done immediately unless there is a consensus (tell #sysreq on irc) to do so.
14:16:26 You have no choice to use xml:lang. It comes with XML 1.0 (as well as xml:space)
14:16:45 Steven: If we change the wording on this now, we would be leaving PER territory
14:16:52 Good point. In XHTML 1.1 we say "This specification also adds the lang attribute to the I18N attribute collection as defined in [XHTMLMOD]. The lang attribute is defined in [HTML4]. When this attribute and the xml:lang are specified on the same element, the xml:lang takes precedence. When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they SHOULD have the same value."
14:16:55 ... Irc bot restart does not affect the actual telecon
14:16:55 ... it could invalidate existing UAs
14:18:28 Steven: In XHTML 1.1, we are expanding the number of allowable documents, and not invalidating existing UAs
14:19:46 Shane: Section c.7 has been removed, so the comment doesn't apply
14:20:13 Steven: It does, because he wanted something added to the normative requirements
14:20:56 ... which is out of scope, because these attributes are defined elsewhere
14:21:24 ... and I will argue that at the transition call
14:22:13 5 mins break for coffee
14:22:15 -Markus
14:25:50 -Alessio
14:27:52 alessio has joined #xhtml
14:30:48 back
14:31:46 Topic: Removed anchors
14:32:04 Shane: WHat do we do; I have kept the anchors with a pointer to the place where they now are
14:32:13 Roland: That's the best we can do
14:32:51 SHane: He's written a validator against appx C, and that broke the error messages in his validator
14:32:56 s/SH/Sh/
14:33:36 Who wrote a 'validator' ?
14:33:48 Bjoern
14:34:45 Steven: This isn't the first time this has happened with a W3C spec (anchors changing)
14:35:06 Shane: Well, they don't get a 404
14:35:12 Topic: 6593
14:35:19 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec7
14:38:21 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml1-20090528/#h-4.7
14:38:33 -ShaneM
14:39:03 sorry - just a minute
14:39:06 Steven: We defer to XML on the definition of whitespace
14:39:10 zakim, what is the code?
14:39:10 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
14:39:15 ... and even point that out in 4.7
14:39:34 +ShaneM
14:42:07 +??P10
14:42:14 zakim, ??P10 is Alessio
14:42:14 +Alessio; got it
14:42:14 http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xhtml1-20000126/#uaconf
14:46:04 Steven: I still think that XML definition of whitespace on input, and CSS definition on output is the good answer
14:47:24 ... and not add anything else. The spec at 4.7 says exactly what it should do
14:47:53 Shane: Issue closed
14:48:16 ... we are rejecting his request, no edits are associated with this change
14:48:43 Topic: Issue 8285
14:48:44 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec8
14:49:56 Shane: Nothing to do with this document.
14:50:07 ... Do we want to add a schema?
14:50:17 Steven: Let's not give ourselves any more work
14:50:33 Shane: OK, this comment is not associated with XHTL 1.0 anymore
14:50:56 Topic: Issue 8415
14:51:02 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec9
14:51:02 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec9
14:53:50 Shane: I think he was misinterpreting this section
14:55:04 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml1-20090528/#normative item 3
14:56:11 Shane: It means "@name does not create a fragment identifier"
14:59:36 Steven: Looking at the wording of his comment, he is asking for changes wrt to appx C, which is gone. So I think the issue is closed
15:00:07 Topic: Issue 6397
15:00:15 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec10
15:00:20 rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/02-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:01:33 Shane: I have made the changes
15:01:52 ... they make no changes to an UA
15:02:12 ... and anyway, all the datatypes map to CDATA anyway
15:02:23 s/anyway/
15:04:07 Steven: So this is just editorial
15:04:20 ... names of datatypes that are otherwise equivalent
15:04:27 Topic: Issue 7087
15:04:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml1-issues-20090527.html#ssec11
15:06:05 Steven: So we just take out the second part of the sentence
15:06:15 s/tence/tence?/
15:06:23 Shane: Yes, get rid of duplication
15:06:31 Steven: I can live with that
15:06:40 Shane: I will make that change
15:07:19 Shane: It is in an informative section anyway
15:07:29 Topic: Issue 6332
15:07:38 s/63/62/
15:08:12 Which list is 6332 on?
15:08:28 6232 is in the voyager issues thing - Steven is getting a link now
15:08:39 Thanks
15:09:34 http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/XHTML-1.0-SE?id=6232;user=guest;selectid=6232;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:10:41 Ian's objection is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0020.html
15:10:53 Steven: What can I say except that I disagree?
15:11:09 ... ALl we do is give guidelines on getting documents to render in HTML UAs
15:11:17 S/ALl/All/
15:12:37