14:51:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xproc
14:51:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-xproc-irc
14:51:23 <ht> zakim, this will be xproc
14:51:23 <Zakim> ok, ht; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:34 <ht> scribenick: ht
14:51:39 <ht> scribe: Henry S. Thompson
14:51:45 <ht> chair: Henry S. Thompson
14:51:58 <ht> meeting: XML Processing Model WG telcon
14:53:07 <ht> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/05/07-agenda.html
14:53:14 <ht> Agenda same as last week. . .
14:53:44 <ht> Plus vote to publish interim CR draft: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html, dated 10 May
14:59:42 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
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15:00:04 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
15:00:12 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
15:00:16 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:00:20 <Zakim> +Ht
15:00:51 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
15:00:54 <Zakim> -[ArborText]
15:00:58 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
15:01:07 <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
15:01:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:01:19 <Zakim> +Alex_Milows
15:01:57 <Zakim> +MoZ
15:02:36 <ht> Topic: Admin
15:02:45 <ht> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ht, PGrosso, Alex_Milows, MoZ
15:03:11 <MoZ> present: Henry, Paul, Alex, Mohamed
15:03:27 <ht> Agenda+ vote to publish interim CR draft
15:04:04 <ht> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of 7 March as published
15:04:16 <ht> Next meeting is 20 May
15:04:20 <ht> Regrets from HT
15:04:34 <ht> s/20/21/
15:04:59 <ht> zakim, next agendum
15:04:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "vote to publish interim CR draft" taken up [from ht]
15:05:21 <ht> Norm distributed a pointer to his latest draft: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html, dated 10 May
15:05:44 <ht> We are not in immediate reach of a complete test suite
15:06:01 <ht> ... and it's been more than three months, so we should publish something
15:06:14 <Zakim> +Vojtech
15:07:23 <ht> RESOLVED: Ask the editor to publish the draft of 10 May as an interim CR draft as soon as convient
15:07:48 <ht> agenda+ default XML processing model
15:07:53 <ht> zakim, next agendum
15:07:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "default XML processing model" taken up [from ht]
15:08:42 <ht> PG raised some questions by email
15:09:01 <ht> PG: What's TimBL's current opinion wrt the pipeline model -- broken?
15:09:23 <ht> HT: It doesn't do what he wants, but he's not opposed to it
15:10:16 <ht> ... because he's interested in the semantics of XML documents
15:10:36 <ht> PG: His version does look like the kind of top-down recursive story you told
15:10:57 <ht> HST: Right, and that's what I was trying to get at in the elaborated infoset story
15:11:35 <ht> Minutes of last week: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/05/07-minutes.html
15:12:08 <ht> PG's emails: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2009May/0005.html
15:12:17 <ht> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2009May/0006.html
15:12:59 <ht> PG: So there isn't anything in our current model which implements that kind of multi-threaded recursive story
15:13:08 <ht> HST: Correct
15:13:26 <ht> AM: Is it that there's a step or two missing, or is it more fundmental?
15:13:34 <ht> HST: More fundamental
15:14:02 <PGrosso> HST: The basic model of the proc model is infoset to infoset transforms.
15:14:39 <PGrosso> HST: It would be problematic to use our existing framework to do a standard recursive path.
15:16:27 <ht> http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/compositional.pdf
15:17:40 <ht> PG: In a full recursive-descent process, you can do things on the way down as well as on the way back up
15:17:52 <ht> HST: That's true, you can, but you typically don't
15:18:32 <ht> PG: What about namespace decls
15:18:42 <ht> HST: Good example, not context-free
15:19:08 <ht> AM: What about XSLT2 -- it would let you do a lot of that, wouldn't it?
15:19:19 <ht> ... both down _and_ up
15:19:57 <PGrosso> HST: TBL's idea is to produce some kind of semantic object, not an infoset.
15:20:41 <PGrosso> HST: So there is a more fundamental reason that what TBL wants is not what our proc model does.
15:22:24 <ht> HST: [two kinds of semantics]
15:22:36 <PGrosso> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/elabInfoset/elabInfoset
15:24:44 <ht> PG: Surprised to see you mention XInclude, XML Sig, XML Encryption, but not xml:id and xml:base
15:25:01 <ht> HST: Good question, and I think you're right on both counts
15:25:25 <ht> HST: Leaving out xml:base and xml:id was accidental
15:27:39 <ht> ... xml:base comes for free with XProc
15:27:46 <ht> ... but xml:id does not, in two ways:
15:28:29 <ht> ... 1) We didn't require the xinclude step to recognise xml:ids as anchors for uris with fragids
15:28:52 <ht> PG: And wrt anchors there are further questions wrt DTDs and XSDs
15:29:23 <ht> ... it's all intertwingled, and we appear to need to de-confuse the order
15:29:38 <ht> ... to say nothing of adding in recursive descent
15:29:55 <ht> HST: coming back to XProc vs xml:id
15:31:58 <ht> ... we don't currently say that e.g. when parsing a character stream to produce an infoset, XProc processors should set xml:id attr IIs to have type ID
15:32:16 <ht> ... or when we introduce xml:id attrs via e.g. add-attribute, that they should get that type
15:32:29 <ht> ... does this matter?  Is it detectable whether we do or not?
15:34:10 <ht> ... What if we write type-aware XPaths, which look for type ID -- should/do/how do we know if they match xml:id?
15:34:17 <ht> ... Need Norm for that
15:34:42 <ht> HST: Coming back to Decryption and signature verification
15:40:17 <ht> HST: [backing off]
15:42:21 <ht> HST: Good news: Xinclude is itself recursively specified -- so we don't have to implement the fixed-point detection for it in XProc
15:43:21 <ht> ... So maybe we _could_ write an XProc pipeline which implemented a default model:
15:43:37 <ht> ... [Straw man] An XProc pipeline consisting of an XInclude step
15:43:56 <ht> ... (modulo some uncertainties wrt xml:id)
15:44:29 <ht> PG: So all we need from a small-s schema is IDness?
15:44:42 <ht> HST: That is the problem alright
15:46:27 <ht> ... There's a chicken and egg problem
15:47:06 <ht> ... Imagine two stages: we publish an DXPM spec; we publish a new edition of XInclude which references the new DXPM spec
15:47:16 <ht> ... We won't get everything we want until the second step
15:47:43 <ht> PG: Do we have to worry about schemas?
15:48:13 <ht> HST: Yes, because of the way we wrote XPointer wrt IDness
15:48:18 <ht> PG: Any other way?
15:49:58 <ht> HST: External entities
15:50:09 <ht> PG: They get expanded, don't they?
15:50:17 <ht> HST: Not by all the browsers
15:50:57 <ht> PG: Assuming they have been expanded, there's nothing except IDness you need from schemas, in order to resolve XPointers and do xinclude
15:51:10 <ht> ... assuming only element and framework
15:53:48 <ht> HST: [optionality/extensibility, again]
15:55:06 <ht> HST: Open questions: 1) What about the flexibility in the XML spec itself?  Do we want to require the 'full' well-formedness parse?
15:56:03 <ht> ... 2) Parameterisable/extensible/fixed+optional --- or not?
15:57:14 <Zakim> -Alex_Milows
15:57:17 <Zakim> -Ht
15:57:18 <Zakim> -PGrosso
15:57:19 <Zakim> -Vojtech
15:57:20 <Zakim> -MoZ
15:57:20 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:57:24 <Zakim> Attendees were Ht, PGrosso, Alex_Milows, MoZ, Vojtech
15:57:52 <ht> HST: If it were up to me, I'd say "yes" to 'full' wfp
15:58:03 <ht> PG: I thought you didn't want to bring in the DTD?
15:58:16 <ht> HST: No, just not all the _other_ schema languages
15:58:26 <ht> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
15:58:32 <ht> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-xproc-minutes.html ht
15:58:38 <ht> zakim, bye
15:58:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xproc
15:58:43 <ht> rrsagent, bye
15:58:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items