15:56:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:56:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-irc
15:56:54 <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
15:56:54 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I don't know what conference this is
15:56:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, dsinger, sylvaing, MikeSmith, glazou_pain, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
15:56:57 <glazou_pain> dsinger: you have to use /invite, that's what I did
15:57:09 <dsinger> Zakim, this is style
15:57:09 <Zakim> ok, dsinger; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:57:28 <Zakim> + +95089aabb
15:57:29 <Zakim> - +1.408.398.aaaa
15:57:36 <glazou_pain> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:36 <Zakim> sorry, glazou_pain, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:57:44 <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aacc
15:57:47 <glazou> Zakim, +aaaa is me
15:57:47 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
15:57:48 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has left #css
15:58:03 <glazou> Zakim, +95089aabb is me
15:58:03 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:05 <sylvaing> zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
15:58:05 <Zakim> +sylvaing, alexmog; got it
15:58:10 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
15:58:32 <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
15:58:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, +1.408.398.aacc
15:58:33 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
15:58:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
15:59:04 <dsinger> Zakim, i am +1.408.398.aacc
15:59:04 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
15:59:10 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
15:59:16 <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
15:59:16 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
15:59:18 <glazou> so we have regrets from szilles, anne, molly, dbaron and probably plinss too
15:59:26 <glazou> hi ChrisL 
15:59:31 <ChrisL> hi daniel
15:59:53 <Zakim> +Bert
16:00:03 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:01:22 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:02:26 <Zakim> +??P24
16:02:32 <fantasai> Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
16:02:32 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:05:02 <dsinger> Which module?
16:05:24 <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
16:05:50 <ChrisL> regrets: anne, molly, david, steve
16:06:03 <ChrisL> topic: column-break
16:07:04 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
16:07:07 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:07:17 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:07:37 <Zakim> +??P24
16:07:43 <ChrisL> am: showed three combinations in an email
16:07:44 <fantasai> Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
16:07:44 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:07:56 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
16:07:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, dsinger (muted), Bert, ChrisL, fantasai
16:07:58 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
16:07:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see alexmog, ChrisL, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
16:08:48 <ChrisL> am: page-break-avoid and column-break-avoid, all combinations make sense
16:09:10 <ChrisL> ... supposr 2 col layout, something is a column and a half wide
16:09:32 <ChrisL> ... if we had two separate properties, column-break-avoid would make it start in the second column
16:09:45 <ChrisL> ... page-break-avoid would move it to the next page
16:09:54 <ChrisL> ... if they were totallyy separate
16:10:19 <ChrisL> ... however, a single break property would move things to the next column but not necessarily the next page
16:10:37 <ChrisL> dg: so you would get a blank page
16:10:47 <ChrisL> am: or a blank column before the next page break
16:11:06 <fantasai> break-inside: avoid | avoid-column | avoid-page
16:11:09 <fantasai> would give you all combinations
16:11:55 <ChrisL> am: if we think page break is always a column break, then its hard to say thata page break is avoided but ok to start im mind column
16:12:01 <ChrisL> s/mind/mid/
16:12:36 <ChrisL> am: close to the opinion that its okay to have separate column and page properties
16:13:12 <ChrisL> el: one property (as above) would do it as well as long as all combinations are listed
16:13:26 <dsinger> Can we lay out all cases? Near end of girst col, near end of second
16:13:47 <dsinger> Pb avoid, cb avoid 
16:13:47 <anne> anne has joined #css
16:13:59 <dsinger> Pb+cb avoid?
16:14:14 <ChrisL> am: advantage of separate properties is that you avoid first column breaks then page breaks
16:14:47 <ChrisL> dg: also an issue of readability
16:15:22 <ChrisL> el: can be readable with one property, with good choice of values. encourages people to think about pages when designing columns
16:15:32 <dsinger> A break over page would violate cb avoid?
16:15:42 <ChrisL> dg: these are being confused
16:16:08 <ChrisL> bb: more interesting question, they are semi independent so all combinations need to be considered either way
16:16:21 <ChrisL> dg: some comninations will be unused
16:16:30 <ChrisL> bb: is there a list of all the combinations?
16:16:41 <ChrisL> am: email did not listall of them
16:17:38 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0054.html
16:18:17 <ChrisL> dg: avoid means 'try to avoid'
16:18:38 <ChrisL> am: most common pattern is to avoid all breaks.
16:19:22 <ChrisL> dg: column should take precedence over  pages
16:20:56 <ChrisL> am: some people think there are only two combinations, but differ on which two those are
16:21:03 <ChrisL> el: happy to define all three
16:21:31 <ChrisL> am: avoid colum, page, both makes sense to me
16:22:01 <ChrisL> bb: agree with elika, define all three even though one is not useful
16:22:26 <ChrisL> ... avoid-both is ok, if you avoid a column break also avoids a column break
16:22:36 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:22:49 <ChrisL> el: no, avoiding both means you prioritise avoiding page breaks over column breaks
16:22:50 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aadd
16:23:02 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:23:21 <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.aadd is [apple]
16:23:21 <Zakim> +[apple]; got it
16:23:24 <glazou> ok
16:23:26 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:23:26 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:24:26 <dsinger> right, col1 of page 2 is not col2 of page 1
16:24:33 <ChrisL> cl: a page break always produces a new colum break
16:25:01 <ChrisL> bb: if its too long then there is no need to push it anywhere
16:25:16 <ChrisL> am: avoid is not forbid. its 'attempt to not break"
16:26:35 <ChrisL> cl: no way to say 'minimise the total number of breaks'
16:26:50 <ChrisL> am: good point, can be complex to optimise for that though
16:27:23 <ChrisL> sg: see example with avoid-column
16:27:25 <fantasai> am: I would prefer to specify that you try to lay out, and if it doesn't fit, you push to the top of the next column
16:28:13 <ChrisL> am: choice of keeping "most" of the article together
16:28:37 <ChrisL> ... prefer a break art the end rather than a break near the start
16:29:00 <ChrisL> am: page break is always a column break as well. that has to be made clear
16:30:02 <ChrisL> el: i agree with alex. want avoid to mean 'try layout then push over a break'. more complex stuff needs different keeywords. avoid behaviour is simple and useful so is what we should do now
16:30:19 <ChrisL> bb: seems fine
16:30:39 <ChrisL> dg: seem close to consensus
16:31:15 <ChrisL> el: page break inside option does not work, 
16:31:35 <ChrisL> ... introducing a shorthand that combines both column and page is the best option
16:31:54 <ChrisL> am: cleaner solution to forget the old property
16:32:02 <ChrisL> el: have to support the old property
16:32:11 <ChrisL> am: yes but avoid in new documents
16:32:21 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:32:36 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:32:51 <ChrisL> (consensus seems to be reached)
16:33:21 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:33:49 <fantasai> el: We're down to either alias or shorthand
16:33:59 <ChrisL> el so we eliminate the first of melindas options but have to choose between 2 and 3
16:34:08 <ChrisL> bb: shorthand seems like overkill
16:34:18 <ChrisL> am: fine with either
16:34:55 <ChrisL> dg: would like to see a summing up and final proposal
16:35:31 <ChrisL> el: can work with hakon to propose something that covers all three combinations, need to pick 2 or 3
16:35:43 <ChrisL> 2. Add three new column-breaking properties ('column-break-before', 'column-break-after', 'column-break-inside') and define their interactions with the existing page-breaking properties; also define three shorthands ('break-before', 'break-after', 'break-inside') that would set both page- and column-breaking values.  Consider deprecating both page- and column-breaking properties in the future.
16:35:54 <ChrisL> 3.  Define 'break-before', 'break-after', and 'break-inside' as aliases to 'page-break-before', 'page-break-after', and 'page-break-inside'.
16:36:38 <ChrisL> am: does the alias mean all the values apply to the old properties?
16:37:06 <ChrisL> el: no, one is a superset of the others
16:37:24 <ChrisL> am: preferable from an implementor standpoint to allow all the properties
16:37:37 <ChrisL> el: 'always' property would be a problem
16:37:45 <fantasai> s/property/value/
16:37:47 <ChrisL> am: ok so i prefer a new set of properties
16:37:52 <ChrisL> el: so do I 
16:38:30 <ChrisL> cl: so everyone seems to like melindas option 2 best
16:39:10 <ChrisL> resolution: Add three new column-breaking properties  per melindas email oprtion 2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:39:28 <fantasai> /resolution/RESOLVED/
16:39:41 <ChrisL> action: fantasai work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties
16:39:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-05-06].
16:40:03 <ChrisL> topic: email from svg on image fit
16:40:10 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
16:40:33 <ChrisL> "The naming was briefly discussed in another SVG telcon[1], and the conclusion was that the SVG WG prefers the naming 'content-fit' and 'content-position' because of the reasons already mentioned above.
16:40:33 <ChrisL> "
16:41:00 <ChrisL> el: concern is that for css, this only appies to images while the name implies it applies more widely eg to text content
16:41:09 <ChrisL> ... but cant comu up with a better name
16:41:47 <ChrisL> dg: don't see a clash with the content property, but could live with it
16:41:58 <ChrisL> el: wonder if we should ask for better names
16:42:09 <ChrisL> dg: ack the problem and ask for a better name
16:42:40 <ChrisL> action: daniel respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name
16:42:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-05-06].
16:43:07 <ChrisL> topic: almost-ready specs
16:43:19 <ChrisL> dg: what can we move to PR?
16:43:41 <ChrisL> dg: chris reported progress with implementations agfainst the colour module tests
16:43:56 <ChrisL> dg: we are seen as very slow and need to publish and move forward
16:44:04 <ChrisL> dg: other candidates?
16:44:11 <ChrisL> el: namespaces?
16:44:31 <ChrisL> ... a parsing bug and one test is failing
16:44:52 <ChrisL> dg: all implementations fail?
16:45:10 <ChrisL> dg; who is doing implementation reports?
16:45:24 <ChrisL> el: easy to do once implementations pass, test suite is not very long
16:46:08 <ChrisL> dg: discussed media queries with anne, he thinks some will be untestable as we do not have suitable devices and that testing on desktop is enough
16:46:26 <ChrisL> dg: concerned that we need to test on mono and character-cell devices
16:46:50 <ChrisL> dg: desktop ones seem to be interoperable at this time, but some features do not apply
16:47:00 <ChrisL> el: do we have any implementations for grid?
16:47:03 <ChrisL> dg: no
16:47:46 <ChrisL> el: should make an imp report for dersktop and survey what other devices actually exist. at end of 6 months if there are no implementations of some features or devices we can drop them from the spec
16:48:21 <ChrisL> bb: not honest to say we pass a test if there are no implementations
16:48:40 <ChrisL> ... some implementatiosn can emullate and always pass
16:48:52 <ChrisL> ... currently no features at risk
16:49:50 <ChrisL> cl: prefer to do an imp report then mark features at risk and republish
16:50:05 <ChrisL> sz: only need to claim to be a device, not to actually be that device
16:50:21 <ChrisL> dg: yes but not implementation claims to be a grid for example
16:51:09 <ChrisL> sz: only issue in testing is if the right selection was made, not whether it then goes on to lay outcorrectly
16:51:33 <ChrisL> dg: will not agree to implement like that and claim to have a feature that they in fact dfon't have
16:51:42 <ChrisL> s/dfo/do/
16:52:10 <Bert> If we test '@media (grid)' and '@media not (grid)' and Opera does the right thing for both, sin't that enough?
16:52:17 <ChrisL> dg: can test for not-grid
16:52:31 <ChrisL> el: probably sufficient.
16:53:01 <ChrisL> ... will have to say its sufficient
16:54:00 <ChrisL> dg: anne had some tests for desktop only. no tests for other devices. WG should look at tests from Anne and contribute more
16:54:19 <ChrisL> ... as soon as we have tests, we can move forward
16:54:33 <ChrisL> cl: where are anne's tests?
16:54:58 <Bert> http://tc.labs.opera.com/mediaqueries/
16:55:07 <ChrisL> not listed on http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
16:55:25 <ChrisL> bb: because not reviewed yet
16:55:46 <ChrisL> dg: will try to review for next week
16:56:26 <ChrisL> cl: cdf testsuite has media query tests which could be re-used
16:56:32 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #css
16:56:39 <ChrisL> sz: snapshot?
16:56:46 <ChrisL> el: depends on 2.1 and selectors
16:57:31 <ChrisL> sz: snapshot is important as it actually defines the current state
16:58:14 <ChrisL> dg: don't think the snapshot is very useful
16:58:40 <dsinger> well, there will be browsers that are interoperable on defined modules...
16:58:47 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:52 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
16:58:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
16:58:58 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:59:00 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:59:03 <dsinger> bye
16:59:06 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:59:10 <Zakim> -[apple]
16:59:13 <Zakim> -Bert
16:59:16 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:59:22 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
16:59:49 <ChrisL> meetiing: CSS WG telcon
16:59:55 <ChrisL> chair: Daniel
17:00:44 <ChrisL> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
17:00:47 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
17:01:37 <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
17:01:49 <ChrisL> Chair: Daniel
17:01:57 <ChrisL> Meetiing: CSS WG telcon
17:02:00 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
17:03:15 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:17 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
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