06:29:36 RRSAgent has joined #svg 06:29:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-irc 06:29:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 06:29:39 Zakim has joined #svg 06:29:40 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 06:29:40 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 06:29:41 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 06:29:41 Date: 27 April 2009 06:29:54 GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started 06:29:54 +Shepazu 06:30:10 +[IPcaller] 06:30:11 -[IPcaller] 06:30:11 +[IPcaller] 06:30:12 Zakim, [ is me 06:30:13 +heycam; got it 06:30:20 Zakim, who is on the call? 06:30:20 On the phone I see Shepazu, heycam 06:32:44 nope 06:33:25 +??P1 06:33:28 +[IPcaller] 06:33:32 Zakim, ??P1 is me 06:33:32 +ed; got it 06:33:38 Zakim, [IP is me 06:33:38 +anthony; got it 06:38:25 scribe: erik 06:38:26 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0072.html 06:38:29 scribeNick: ed 06:39:07 Chair: heycam 06:39:10 Topic: Publishing the Compositing spec 06:39:51 CM: we discussed previously to publish the spec this week, sent some comments today, but those doesn't need to hold up the publication 06:40:35 AG: those comments are good, mostly typo corrections, and a couple of things that need to be explained 06:40:51 ...as long as everyone else is ok with publishing 06:41:00 DS: has it been FPWD? 06:41:08 AG: this would be the FPWD 06:41:23 CM: parts were published before in the 1.2 full draft 06:41:40 DS: this is a new spec though 06:42:18 CM/DS: we can do the cleanups/typos after the FPWD 06:42:35 CM: are we resolved to publish compositing? 06:42:48 DS: any objections? 06:42:52 all: no 06:43:18 s/all: no/all: no objections, let's publish/ 06:43:43 RESOLUTION: to publish SVG Compositing as a FPWD 06:44:34 ACTION: DS to publish the SVG Compositing spec 06:44:34 Created ACTION-2527 - Publish the SVG Compositing spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-04]. 06:44:50 Topic: Updating broken CSS2 links 06:44:59 DS: doesn't need discussion? 06:45:16 CM: we need to decide how to deal with it, in the existing spec 06:45:50 ...summary: because of the shortname /CSS2 and /CSSREC2 are now redirected to CSS21, various links in SVG 1.1 are now dangling 06:46:14 ...full dated uri:s should have been used from the start in the spec 06:47:01 ...we can replace the SVG 1.1 spec links in place to fix the links 06:47:16 s/CSSREC2/REC-CSS2/ 06:47:36 ED: are we still pointing to CSS2, or 2.1? 06:47:42 CM: css2 06:48:47 CM: if there are no objections, we can fix the links, have link to the files that need to be switched 06:49:32 ...there are a couple in tiny 1.2 too, not broken ones, but it's now pointing to css21...and those features are still in css21 anyway 06:49:44 ...but css2 is in the ref-section 06:49:58 ...will forward the mail with the fixups 06:50:48 ACTION: heycam to mail DS the info for fixing up CSS2 links in the SVG 1.1 spec 06:50:48 Created ACTION-2528 - Mail DS the info for fixing up CSS2 links in the SVG 1.1 spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-04]. 06:51:14 Topic: Referencing CSS 2.1 from SVG 1.1 Second Edition 06:51:34 CM: I'm not that familiar with what's changed 06:51:58 ...one thing I know of is the webfonts stuff, which is now in CSS3 webfonts 06:52:18 DS: I don't think we should change SVG 1.1 that much 06:52:27 CM: probably more effort than its worth 06:52:58 ...we don't want to change things, but rather to point to the more up-to-date spec (CSS21) 06:53:08 ...they may be in CR for awhile anyway 06:53:22 DS: it wouldn't be correct to change it 06:53:43 ...we may be changing things dramatically for older svg useragents 06:54:11 ...we should definately reference CSS21 going forward, but not in the SVG 1.1 second edition 06:54:18 ED: yes, I agree with that 06:54:24 CM: fine with me 06:54:45 Topic: Pattern and rendering order 06:54:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0088.html 06:55:28 ED: he's asking about the case when the pattern tile has some overflow, asking how it's supposed to render 06:55:34 ED: of course, UAs differ on how they interpret this 06:55:43 ED: i think he's saying that the most logical solution would be to use the painters model 06:56:14 ED: he's saying that because at least opera and asv don't support overflow, you can't do all types of overlapping patterns 06:56:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0093.html 06:56:57 ED: he refers to the 17 known tiling patterns 06:57:06 ED: in my response i ask him what kinds of patterns couldn't you do 06:57:10 ED: he replied with those 17 groups 06:57:21 ED: because you can do quite a few types by rearranging the tile itself 06:57:32 ED: if you want to be able to do all these other ones, then the pattern rendering would have to be a bit more advanced 06:58:03 ED: the 1.1 spec doesn't really say how you render those cases, it just says that you can have overflow:visible, doesn't say what that's supposed to look like or handled 06:58:35 ED: i haven't tested that many implementations, it would probably be nice to have examples of each of these 17 groups of periodic tilings, and to see what all of the current UAs do 06:58:44 ED: one problem would be that there are not that many UAs that support patterns 06:58:53 ED: i don't think safari does it 06:59:07 ED: batik, asv, opera and i think firefox 3 06:59:13 ED: those should be tested for all those groups 06:59:49 ED: i think batik/asv/opera all just take the rectangle and tile that 07:00:01 ED: i think for 1.1 Second Edition we should disallow it, or state that it's undefined explicitly 07:00:36 CM: would we say that overflow has no effect, and that it always clips to the pattern viewport? 07:00:46 ED: or we could say that it's undefined behaviour, so we could leave it open for fixing later 07:01:14 CM: is it worth having it undefined so that we can define it later? 07:01:17 DS: it's worth considering 07:01:20 AG: should email olaf back 07:02:26 ED: we should test the fallback behaviour; it's possible it's just clipped to the viewport 07:02:59 DS: this is definitely something we should consider following up on, not necessarily something we should change now 07:03:29 DS: IME patterns are useless sometimes 07:05:06 ED: so we could just say that overflow:visible is undefined 07:05:12 AG: raise an issue on svg 2 to define it 07:06:56 ACTION: ed to add an svg 1.1 errata for making overflow=visible on patterns be undefined behaviour and to raise an issue on solving the pattern tiling for overflow=visible (core2) 07:06:56 Created ACTION-2529 - Add an svg 1.1 errata for making overflow=visible on patterns be undefined behaviour and to raise an issue on solving the pattern tiling for overflow=visible (core2) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-05-04]. 07:07:21 Topic: ‘image-fit’ vs preserveAspectRatio 07:08:34 ED: so the only remaining issue really is the naming it seems 07:08:46 ...the feature is useful for both CSS and SVG 07:10:01 CM: so it would be fine if UAs implented both pAR and image-fit/content-fit 07:11:00 DS/CM/ED: all like 'content-*' 07:11:13 s/all/we all/ 07:12:01 ACTION: ed to reply to the image-fit thread saying that the SVG WG would prefer the name(s) 'content-*' 07:12:02 Created ACTION-2530 - Reply to the image-fit thread saying that the SVG WG would prefer the name(s) 'content-*' [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-05-04]. 07:12:25 Topic: ref/params spec 07:12:58 DS: any reviews so far, besides heycam? 07:13:06 AG: not yet 07:13:24 ED: only read the proposals so far 07:13:41 DS: heycam has proposed an alternate syntax 07:14:28 ...a suggestion about an alternate syntax that got rid of the ref element, and directly put a functional values in the attribute values 07:14:41 CM: yeah, wanted to see if I could get rid of the ref elements 07:14:53 DS: yeah, we talked about it at the TPAC 07:15:04 ...paintservers are similar 07:15:17 ...would it be easier to implement if it used the same mechanism? 07:15:29 ...thinking about it now, I could implement it in script either way 07:16:12 CM: the weird part in my proposal is the content attribute, which is similar to :content in css 07:16:41 ...so it would be more general way of inserting text content 07:17:12 DS: one problem with tref, if the content doesn't resolve then the user is left unknowing, nothing will be shown (no fallback content) 07:17:26 ...so I liked the idea of allowing fallback content for tref 07:17:43 ...are we talking about markup or just strings? 07:17:56 ...tref just takes a string 07:18:57 ...having fallback for tref and having content, not so keen on having stirngs in attributes though 07:20:00 CM: in svg normally if you have a tref reference to a switch would it give you the textContent or would it do the switch processing? 07:20:08 ED: I think it's just textContent 07:20:28 CM: a problem is that one of the role attributes is named 'content' 07:21:00 ...the reason I chose 'content' is that it offers the same functionality as the css content property 07:21:20 ...what do you want in terms in of publication? 07:21:46 ...might be good to publish this to let people know we want to add this functionality 07:22:23 AG: yeah, we should get it out and get comments 07:22:40 CM: DS you could add some notes there, for these things 07:23:51 DS: what do you think of changing the values of things like geometric values of things like x and y, to have functional values? 07:24:00 CM: you mean turning attributes into properties? 07:24:09 DS: did you see the primer? 07:24:37 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html 07:25:12 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRefPrimer.html 07:25:54 DS: scroll down to the maps 07:26:12 ...there's a little dot the, parameterising the cx and cy 07:26:33 ...and same for links, to pass in links for e.g ads 07:26:45 CM: like the examples 07:28:35 DS: right now we cna only use functional notation for attribute values in presentation attributes 07:28:48 ...i'd like to extend that to all attributes 07:29:04 ...one, why wouldn't you want to set anything with css? 07:29:18 ...two, it would work for camerons constraints stuff 07:29:34 CM: it will be important to think about how this would work for future things 07:30:30 DS: parameterised attribute values is probably how I would go with extending the syntax 07:30:45 ...so I'd like to say e.g 100%-5px without having it in a URL 07:31:00 CM: calc in CSS provides that 07:31:21 ...if we're looking at promoting the attributes to properties, then we could gain from that 07:31:36 ...it makes enough sense to be able to put them there 07:31:45 http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc 07:31:57 ...it does make sense to upgrade them to being properties 07:32:13 ED: all attributes? 07:32:22 DS: most, href would be an exception 07:33:07 ED: lists of things e.g, sometimes you might want to override only parts of a list (or a path) 07:34:29 DS: anything that takes a list couldn't have a fallback 07:34:45 ...any other attributes could have a fallback 07:35:48 07:36:30 CM: that might mean we have to think about types 07:36:57 DS: if we do it, it's done, there's going to be flaws with any model we come up with 07:37:05 ...i like functional values 07:37:13 ...it builds on things laid out in css 07:37:28 width: calc(100%/3 - 2*1em - 2*1px); 07:39:14 CM: i would be in favor of investigating making existing svg attributes into properties 07:39:27 DS: given that we want to allow this syntax anyway 07:39:48 ...I think it makes sense for parameterising things like stroke and fill 07:39:59 ...might make sense for other things (I think it does) 07:41:02 ...less work to specialcase the ones that aren't properties 07:41:18 CM: would make it easier to reuse content 07:42:19 DS: markers is one thing, had to duplicate the markers several times to style them differently 07:43:38 ED: yeah, it's annoying that it behaves different from use, which do inherit style into the shadowtree 07:45:06 DS: i like having an ref element, because you can animate those in the document 07:45:26 ...and we don't have the equivalent of in svg 07:45:51 ...if I wanted to use a button multiple times, I might like to actually like to use this syntax 07:46:12 ...I was thinking of the element, or the element, anything that references 07:46:23 ...even the element 07:46:56 AG: would we run into problems with optional arguments? 07:47:29 DS: have default values, but the example with the rect above, you could also pass defaults there 07:47:37 ...it's important 07:48:19 AG: multiple optional elements 07:48:54 ...or multiple optional arguments 07:49:56 DS: this is a new class of things we could start doing...calc, or url() and param 07:50:25 ...there's an attr() function 07:50:48 CM: often used with css content 07:51:50 transform="param(blah) translate(20 20)" 07:52:21 DS: we should talk to the csswg about this 07:52:54 AG: so, would the translate be an additonal transform, or a fallback? 07:52:59 transform="scale(param(blah)) translate(20 20)" 07:53:05 DS: it's a list, so would need to be specialcased 07:53:36 AG: needs special consideration yeah 07:53:58 DS: might be handy with translateX,Y,Z 07:54:58 DS: will add notes with the functional notation for param 07:55:17 ...and if we're not going to have an element, then it could be applied to css as well 07:55:34 CM: yeah, that might be good 07:57:49 RESOLUTION: publish the param/ref spec as FPWD 07:59:42 ACTION: heycam to get the ref spec building with the new scripts 07:59:42 Created ACTION-2531 - Get the ref spec building with the new scripts [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-04]. 08:00:22 ACTION: DS to integrate the new potential syntax, and publish the ref spec 08:00:23 Created ACTION-2532 - Integrate the new potential syntax, and publish the ref spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-04]. 08:02:33 ACTION: heycam to look into making attributes into properties, and potential problems with that 08:02:33 Created ACTION-2533 - Look into making attributes into properties, and potential problems with that [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-04]. 08:03:16 -ed 08:03:18 -anthony 08:03:19 -heycam 08:03:28 Zakim, bye 08:03:28 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Shepazu, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, anthony 08:03:28 Zakim has left #svg 08:03:34 rrs-agent, make minutes 08:03:41 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:03:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html ed 08:06:54 ed: watch our for the pirate ArrrghArrrghSAgent 08:44:38 heycam has joined #svg