IRC log of mediafrag on 2009-04-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:54:28 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc
06:54:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:54:30 [Zakim]
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06:54:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
06:54:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()3:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
06:54:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
06:54:33 [trackbot]
Date: 17 April 2009
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07:09:05 [raphael]
Silvia, you miss some amazing food yesterday night, but you will see the pretty pictures taken :-)
07:09:18 [raphael]
you miss as well the longggggggggggggg drink session :-)
07:09:29 [raphael]
trackbot, start telecon
07:09:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:09:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
07:09:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()3:00AM scheduled to start 9 minutes ago
07:09:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
07:09:34 [trackbot]
Date: 17 April 2009
07:10:16 [raphael]
Chair: Erik, Raphael
07:10:48 [raphael]
Present: Erik, Davy, Guillaume, Michael, Jack, Conrad, Raphael, Frank (observer), Yves (remote), Silvia (remote), Dave
07:11:04 [guillaume]
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07:11:14 [raphael]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ThirdF2FAgenda
07:11:30 [silvia]
any changes to the agenda?
07:11:58 [raphael]
Meeting: Media Fragments WG, 3rd F2F Meeting - Barcelona (Spain)
07:12:22 [raphael]
yes Silvia, we will start with the session: Implementation Reports
07:12:32 [raphael]
... then talk about the issues
07:12:52 [raphael]
... and finally about the test cases, where we need to kick off the work
07:12:59 [raphael]
Does that suit you ?
07:13:45 [davy_]
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07:14:25 [silvia]
sure
07:17:36 [raphael]
Silvia, we are waiting for Jack, coming in a few minutes
07:17:38 [erik]
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07:17:44 [raphael]
... and Yves, that he could phone us
07:17:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
07:18:02 [conrad]
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07:25:36 [raphael]
zakim, call mediafrag-f2f
07:25:36 [Zakim]
ok, raphael; the call is being made
07:25:37 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()3:00AM has now started
07:25:38 [Zakim]
+Mediafrag
07:25:54 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is here?
07:25:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mediafrag
07:25:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see conrad, erik, davy_, guillaume, mhausenblas, raphael, dsinger, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, Yves, trackbot
07:27:03 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is making noise?
07:27:03 [Zakim]
I am sorry, mhausenblas; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
07:29:59 [raphael]
Scribe: Raphael
07:30:13 [raphael]
Scribenick: raphael
07:30:27 [raphael]
Topic: 1. Quick summary of First day meeting
07:30:57 [raphael]
Raphael: we should have a picture representing the general structure of the media object, the H, H', K, D, etc. we talked about yesterday
07:31:27 [raphael]
... Can we do such a representation valid for most of the formats?
07:31:33 [raphael]
Conrad: yes, for the streamable formats
07:31:44 [raphael]
... I'm happy to take an action to draw such a schema
07:32:00 [Zakim]
+Silvia
07:32:10 [raphael]
trackbot, status?
07:32:40 [raphael]
ACTION: Conrad to draw a representation of the general structure of a media resource, for streamable formats
07:32:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-69 - Draw a representation of the general structure of a media resource, for streamable formats [on Conrad Parker - due 2009-04-24].
07:34:29 [raphael]
Topic: 2. Implementation Reports
07:35:02 [philipj]
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07:35:09 [raphael]
a) Davy wants to present and demo a software that allows to slide media files independently of the codec format
07:35:29 [raphael]
b) Jack has some reporting to do on its implemntation
07:35:39 [raphael]
c) Davy wants to talk about RTSP implementation
07:35:50 [raphael]
d) Conrad wants to report on his experience in Annodex
07:40:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
07:40:55 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is talking?
07:40:55 [Zakim]
I am sorry, mhausenblas; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
07:42:12 [silvia]
Zakim, mute me
07:42:12 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
07:42:52 [raphael]
Silvia, Davy will start with some slides that are coming
07:48:22 [raphael]
Davy going through a presentation
07:49:15 [raphael]
Slides at: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/meetings/2009-04-16-f2f_barcelona/Adaptation_logic_for_(server-side)_media_fragment_extraction.pdf
07:50:47 [raphael]
Davy: Slide 6, my PhD work is built on BSD content adaptation, using RDF
07:50:59 [raphael]
... based on a model for media bitstreams encoded in OWL
07:52:03 [raphael]
... Slide 7: Coding formats -> model for media bitstreams -> container formats
07:54:03 [raphael]
... Slide 8: model for media bitsreams represented as a set of classes and properties
07:54:56 [raphael]
... left part is the structure part, while the right part is more semantic
07:55:15 [Zakim]
+Yves
07:55:20 [raphael]
... Slide 9: shows the workflow
07:55:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
07:58:50 [raphael]
... Slide 10: shows an example, two tracks (audio, video) represented in the intermediary model
07:59:07 [raphael]
... assume there is a mapping between one particular codec format and this model
08:01:29 [raphael]
... Track selection, means selection of MediaBitstreams, straightforward
08:03:26 [raphael]
... Temporal selection, means selection of data blocks, based on their timestamps
08:03:44 [raphael]
... problem for Spatial clipping?
08:03:56 [raphael]
Jack: it works only for scalable formats for Spatial Fragment
08:07:36 [raphael]
Davy: Slide 11: general architecture of the NinSuna platform
08:08:13 [raphael]
... the retrieval service is not yet compatible with the media fragment syntax, but we could adapt it
08:10:31 [raphael]
... Slide 12: two remarks, 1/ is the media needs to be 'ingested', i.e. the intermediary model needs to be instantiated and 2/ currently client decides the output format
08:10:42 [raphael]
Time for demo
08:16:30 [jackjansen]
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08:16:48 [mhausenblas]
DON'T CLICK on the following link, now:
08:17:23 [mhausenblas]
http://respighi.elis.ugent.be/NinSunaWeb
08:17:40 [silvia]
what is the link for?
08:18:08 [mhausenblas]
silvia: that's davy's demo :)
08:18:40 [mhausenblas]
note that the demo requires IE and Silverlight
08:18:50 [silvia]
ah, thanks
08:19:04 [raphael]
... and VLC for the playback
08:24:26 [Yves]
raphael, no
08:24:41 [Yves]
we will put thata on another server
08:27:18 [erik]
our demo can be found at http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/NinSuna/
08:28:11 [silvia]
is there a screencast?
08:28:36 [silvia]
erik?
08:29:23 [raphael]
A screencast will be made by the IBBT guys next week
08:29:43 [silvia]
ok - those screenshots at the demo site are good, too
08:29:56 [raphael]
I'm uploading the videos on my web page
08:30:02 [raphael]
cofffee break, we are back in 15 min
08:30:35 [Zakim]
-Silvia
08:30:39 [mhausenblas]
s/http://respighi.elis.ugent.be/NinSunaWeb/NN
08:31:02 [mhausenblas]
rrsagent, drfat minutes
08:31:02 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'drfat minutes', mhausenblas. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:31:08 [mhausenblas]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:31:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
08:31:47 [mhausenblas]
Yves: how do we remove the link above?
08:31:56 [mhausenblas]
only manual edit possible?
08:31:58 [raphael]
Videos will be at http://homepages.cwi.nl/~troncy/tmp/spool/video/
08:32:11 [Yves]
s/http:\/\/respighi.elis.ugent.be\/NinSunaWeb/NN/g
08:32:18 [mhausenblas]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:32:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
08:32:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
08:32:51 [mhausenblas]
thanks
08:32:56 [mhausenblas]
coffeeeeeeeeeeee
08:53:27 [raphael]
zakim, who is on the phone?
08:53:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mediafrag, Yves
08:53:51 [guillaume]
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08:54:03 [raphael]
Silvia, we will resume
08:54:21 [raphael]
Raphael: now we will listen to Jack
08:55:00 [raphael]
Jack: I took the Python URL library
08:55:55 [raphael]
... I took this library and add some code of myself
08:56:06 [raphael]
... for parsing the media fragments part
08:56:28 [raphael]
... and here I discover all the issues discovered and reported, now fixed
08:56:50 [raphael]
... and then the problems started, I tried first with the file URL (local resource)
08:56:58 [guillaume]
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08:57:19 [raphael]
... problem is with synch on video/audio, should we do transcoding or not, etc.
08:57:52 [raphael]
... my goal was to first address: file://myvideo.mp4#t=10,20
08:59:08 [raphael]
... use ffmpeg for slicing the media
08:59:31 [raphael]
... it's hard to use it, the API changes frequently, but the functionalities are very good
08:59:59 [raphael]
... at the C level, it does what we want, but at the command level, it is meant to do transcoding
09:00:54 [raphael]
Guillaume: why not using the Python library G-streams, an API for ffmpeg?
09:01:26 [raphael]
URL lib for Python: http://docs.python.org/library/urllib.html
09:01:43 [guillaume]
Gstreamer Python binding library : http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/modules/gst-python.html
09:02:20 [guillaume]
and GStreamer itself http://www.gstreamer.net/
09:02:59 [raphael]
Jack: I will have a working version in a few more days, but it will transcode
09:03:06 [raphael]
... since this is what ffmepg does
09:04:50 [Zakim]
+Silvia
09:05:50 [raphael]
... my plan is thus rather going through C++ implementation, to attack ffmeph low layers, and have no transcoding
09:06:31 [silvia]
Zakim, mute me
09:06:31 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
09:08:03 [raphael]
Jack: I can share the code that does the parsing of the fragment
09:08:57 [mhausenblas]
Anyone done or plans to do a client-side implementation of the parsing, etc., say in JavaScript
09:09:49 [mhausenblas]
if not, I might have some resources (not myself, for sure, but a PhD of mine) who could do something based on jQuery
09:10:02 [raphael]
ACTION: Jack to commit in CVS (code directory) his python code doing the parsing on client side of the media fragment
09:10:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-70 - Commit in CVS (code directory) his python code doing the parsing on client side of the media fragment [on Jack Jansen - due 2009-04-24].
09:11:30 [raphael]
ACTION: Michael to investigate whether he could have an implementation in Javascript that does the client-side media fragments implementation
09:11:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-71 - Investigate whether he could have an implementation in Javascript that does the client-side media fragments implementation [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-04-24].
09:12:12 [raphael]
Conrad will now report on his implementation experience
09:13:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:13:26 [raphael]
Davy, first report on RTSP implementation
09:14:25 [conrad]
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09:16:28 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
09:16:29 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
09:17:32 [raphael]
http://homepages.cwi.nl/~troncy/Talks/2009-03-06-mozcamp/#(3)
09:20:12 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
09:20:12 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
09:23:35 [raphael]
Davy: RTSP implementation wiki page, http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/RTSP_implementation
09:24:27 [conrad]
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09:24:36 [raphael]
... quick test, I have an implementation of the media fragment over the RTSP protocol
09:24:43 [raphael]
... it works for track and temporal selection
09:25:18 [raphael]
... first communication is the Describe, and the server answers which track is available, etc.
09:25:36 [Zakim]
-Mediafrag
09:26:13 [Zakim]
+Mediafrag
09:26:50 [raphael]
... then for each track, we have a Setup
09:28:35 [raphael]
... so we can have easily a track selection in RTSP
09:28:58 [raphael]
... next command is the play command, where we can specify the temporal clipping
09:29:14 [raphael]
... I don't remember which units is supported, but for sure npt and smpte
09:30:08 [raphael]
... again, I have an implementation that parses the media fragment, and generates a PLAY command
09:32:52 [raphael]
... i do not yet cover the whole grammar of the media fragment, so far just, t= and track=
09:32:58 [raphael]
... implemented in C
09:33:10 [raphael]
... I'm working on covering the whole grammar
09:33:27 [raphael]
Raphael: my (silly?) idea, embed VLC in a web page
09:33:55 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
09:33:55 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
09:34:30 [raphael]
... implement on client side, in the browser, the possibility to write down a media fragment URI (rtsp), use the code of Davy to generate the good Describe, Setup and Play commands
09:34:47 [raphael]
... send that through VLC and get the results back, using the VLC plugin in the browser
09:35:01 [raphael]
Davy: should be doable
09:35:02 [conrad]
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09:35:24 [raphael]
Davy: my issue is with track selection, how do you know the name of the track
09:35:48 [raphael]
Jack: this is related to the issue raised by Silvia, http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/4
09:36:32 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
09:36:32 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
09:36:34 [raphael]
Jack: what I come accoss, is that often, you want not 1 track, but 2 tracks, or all tracks except one
09:36:45 [raphael]
... not very convenient with our current scheme?
09:37:07 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
09:37:07 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
09:37:50 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
09:37:50 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
09:37:57 [raphael]
Silvia: suggestion to add a comma separation, such as: #track='track1,track2,track3'
09:38:08 [raphael]
Jack: or event having a minus
09:39:06 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
09:39:06 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
09:42:24 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
09:42:24 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
09:45:51 [silvia]
the naming of the tracks is up to the container format - some allow it, others don't
09:45:58 [mhausenblas]
Scribenick: mhausenblas
09:46:10 [silvia]
for example QuickTime has chapter tracks that should be addressable in the given way with #track
09:46:16 [mhausenblas]
;)
09:46:18 [franck]
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09:46:43 [mhausenblas]
Conrad has essentially said everything yesterday, now no new stuff
09:47:13 [silvia]
Jack: mentions that naming of tracks is decided by author and they create the URL
09:47:37 [silvia]
Conrad: mentions that with Accept-Language it should be possible to leave the track selection for languages to the server
09:47:48 [mhausenblas]
raphael: conrad ok for you to implement it based on # rather than ?
09:48:43 [mhausenblas]
conrad: will try to implement the hash part as well
09:49:28 [mhausenblas]
raphael: agree, after the first step both # and ? have the same procedure
09:50:38 [davy]
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09:50:50 [mhausenblas]
raphael: conrad would you implement the 'missing link' using the HTTP Link: header draft
09:51:13 [mhausenblas]
conrad: yes, I like Yves idea using it, gonna try
09:52:07 [mhausenblas]
raphael: Yves, silvia any question?
09:52:37 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Test Cases
09:53:07 [mhausenblas]
Scribenick: erik
09:54:11 [erik]
yves: give a set of URI's and describe what should be expected
09:54:55 [erik]
michael: rather have a set of simple cases to start with
09:55:20 [Yves]
parsing URI is more or less done (via the code I contributed), so it's more ohw a cient aprse que URI and act based on that
09:55:38 [Yves]
s/aprse/parse/
09:55:41 [Yves]
s/ohw/how/
09:55:52 [erik]
michael: really stress on what the outcome is
09:56:20 [erik]
michael: try to make it as automatic as possible
09:57:50 [erik]
Jack: some temporal testing should at least be able to be done automatically (cfr. via using subtitles)
09:58:18 [erik]
Jack: some manual video-inspection still has to be done
09:59:37 [conrad]
we could add time range validation to http://validator.annodex.org/ :-)
09:59:44 [erik]
Jack: because we use half-open intervals
09:59:59 [conrad]
http://validator.annodex.org/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fia331343.us.archive.org%2F2%2Fitems%2Fnight_of_the_living_dead%2Fnight_of_the_living_dead.ogv%3Ft%3D10%2C20
10:01:17 [erik]
michael (on blackboard)
10:02:58 [erik]
on UA:
10:04:08 [jackjansen]
erik, I wanted to say "because we use half-open intervals we can also do some automatic testing on video/audio"
10:05:53 [erik]
two test cases: URI resolving & Generate HTTP request (also see photo)
10:07:35 [erik]
on Server:
10:07:57 [erik]
from HTTP request to HTTP response
10:08:04 [erik]
back on UA:
10:10:04 [erik]
comment from jack: this is testing from User Expectation ... shouldn't we just test our Spec?
10:10:12 [Yves]
we need to test if it's feasible to get interoperable implementations
10:10:28 [Yves]
so we test the spec, but also (parts of) implementations as well
10:10:39 [Yves]
we won't test that implementations are 100% correct
10:10:58 [Yves]
we just test 100% coverage of the spec by interoperable implementations
10:12:09 [erik]
michael: try the top-down approach (opposed to Jack's proposal of doing it bottom-up)
10:12:28 [erik]
raphael: in the end both should come up with the same results though
10:13:11 [erik]
(human in the loop) on UA
10:14:36 [conrad]
on the last step ("human in the loop") we should document the expected behaviour of a UA: that the first frame rendered is the first frame of the interval, that the video image is not broken (ie. the decoder has been primed with the previous i-frame)
10:17:10 [erik]
TestCase 0: URI#
10:18:42 [erik]
-> == URI == entire resource
10:20:48 [erik]
Jack: at very least for every dimension we should define all the test cases where we get back the whole resource & also the ones where we get back an empty resource
10:20:49 [philipj]
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10:22:57 [guillaume]
see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ for example
10:23:45 [guillaume]
http://torrez.us/code/rdfa-js/tests/ and http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
10:29:52 [Zakim]
-Silvia
10:34:11 [davy]
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10:34:20 [erik]
Yves: there are tools online that check HTTP responses
10:35:10 [Yves]
I gree we just need to test that the headers we cared for are ok
10:35:16 [Yves]
s/gree/agree/
10:36:41 [erik]
michael: we should test our extra HTTP-headers for example ... not the complete HTTP stack
10:39:32 [erik]
raphael: practically ... just test specific HTTP-headers with name & their possible values
10:41:42 [erik]
Jack & Conrad: tests are most easily done on server
10:42:46 [guillaume]
see http://wiki.csswg.org/test/harness
10:42:57 [erik]
conrad: two test harnesses ... one for client & one for server
10:43:16 [erik]
conrad & jack: can be both scripted
10:48:57 [conrad]
yes
10:49:28 [jackjansen]
I can be scripted, but the qeustion is: do I do what you expect.....
10:50:24 [erik]
s/: can be both/: both test harnesses can be
10:51:20 [erik]
ACTION: michael to setup template for test cases on wiki
10:51:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-72 - Setup template for test cases on wiki [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-04-24].
10:53:06 [erik]
raphael: initial 10 test cases ... test case 0 & empty/entire resource & only temporal and npt-units
10:54:19 [conrad]
if we are testing a client, the base uri is the uri of the harness
10:54:41 [conrad]
if we are testing a server, we need to provide media and test fragment requests to that media
10:55:04 [erik]
jack: why not only within test harness just the fragment (not the whole URI) to make it automatically testable
11:02:10 [Zakim]
-Yves
11:02:10 [erik]
erik: what about RTSP?
11:02:38 [erik]
jack: we do end-to-end test for multiple protocols
11:03:59 [erik]
raphael: how was the test suite handled within SMIL?
11:05:10 [erik]
Jack: SMIL 2.0 test suite was xml & then parsed by bits of perl/python
11:06:23 [erik]
then put into HTML forms, again some script processing & afterwards put into a document ... all testing was done manually :(
11:06:51 [erik]
... please, choose the right media to run the tests!
11:07:10 [erik]
s/then put into/... then put into
11:07:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
11:26:10 [Zakim]
-Mediafrag
11:26:12 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()3:00AM has ended
11:26:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mediafrag, Silvia, Yves
12:39:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:07:16 [raphael]
invite zakim #mediafrag
13:07:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mediafrag
13:07:27 [raphael]
zakim, call mediafrag-f2f
13:07:27 [Zakim]
sorry, raphael, I don't know what conference this is
13:07:37 [raphael]
trackbot, start telecon
13:07:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:07:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
13:07:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()3:00AM scheduled to start 367 minutes ago
13:07:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
13:07:43 [trackbot]
Date: 17 April 2009
13:07:45 [raphael]
zakim, call mediafrag-f2f
13:07:45 [Zakim]
ok, raphael; the call is being made
13:07:46 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()3:00AM has now started
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+Mediafrag
13:08:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:08:23 [jackjansen]
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13:12:33 [raphael]
scribenick: raphael
13:12:38 [raphael]
Wrapping up the test cases
13:12:58 [raphael]
Conrad: have a test case with a #foo fragment
13:13:00 [guillaume]
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... on a non-media resource, if the behaviour is as expected
13:13:45 [raphael]
Dave: test whether the video.mp4#t=10 (as used by Google video) still works as expected
13:14:14 [raphael]
Michael: we should completement with more negative test cases
13:21:54 [davy]
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13:22:26 [jackjansen]
zakim, who is here?
13:22:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mediafrag
13:22:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see davy, guillaume, jackjansen, Zakim, conrad, erik, mhausenblas, raphael, dsinger, RRSAgent, Yves, trackbot
13:23:07 [raphael]
Topic: 4. Issues
13:23:14 [raphael]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/open
13:24:25 [raphael]
Issue 3: Michael, http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/3
13:24:53 [raphael]
Michael: in RFC3986, the semantics of the fragment is per design not defined
13:25:22 [raphael]
... together with the mime-type, one can learn what the semantics means
13:25:33 [raphael]
... example, HTML, with its registration
13:25:41 [raphael]
... but this is not true for most of the media types
13:27:22 [raphael]
... to register at IANA and IETF the media fragment syntax
13:27:43 [franck]
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13:28:19 [raphael]
Jack: this is not possible, mp4 has already its post-hash syntax
13:29:01 [raphael]
... we could write a cover letter, explaining who we are, and recommend to the mime-type owners what they should register
13:29:17 [raphael]
Michael: there are plenty, is this possible at all?
13:29:23 [raphael]
... it will take too much time
13:31:22 [raphael]
Member only link: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-swcg-minutes.html#item03
13:33:17 [mhausenblas]
proposal: media/fragment
13:33:39 [mhausenblas]
media/fragment+video
13:33:59 [mhausenblas]
media/fragment+audio
13:34:04 [mhausenblas]
media/fragment+image
13:35:28 [raphael]
Conrad: it's a hack to use the Accept header for that
13:36:27 [raphael]
Conrad: we need to do a media specific documentation
13:36:54 [raphael]
Davy: problem, MPEG-21 has done that for MPEG resources, why they would change and adopt our scheme?
13:37:57 [raphael]
Conrad: we have no authority, we could just convince them with existing implementations, and deployment
13:38:15 [raphael]
Michael: I need to take my action seriously and come back with figures
13:38:25 [raphael]
... how many mime type owners we need to talk with ?
13:38:35 [raphael]
... how many mime-types will be affected?
13:39:21 [raphael]
Jack: looking at IANA database, it is very hard to guess who is the owner
13:39:54 [raphael]
Michael: my method, look at all the mime-type concerned (audio/*, video/*, image/*) and look for each whether they have a semantics for the hash
13:39:58 [raphael]
... if NOT, no problem
13:40:15 [raphael]
... if YES, then, identify the owner and evaluate the impact
13:40:58 [raphael]
... evaluate impact meaning detecting clash
13:45:10 [raphael]
Conrad: we should talk to the AVT group in IETF
13:45:15 [raphael]
... charter: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/avt-charter.html
13:45:25 [raphael]
... group home page: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/avt/
13:46:30 [raphael]
Conrad: I think Dave Singer is somehow associated to this group
13:47:03 [raphael]
Dave: can you confirm the asumption of Conrad just above?
13:48:26 [raphael]
Issue 4: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/4
13:49:14 [dsinger]
I am looking for the assumption
13:51:58 [raphael]
Are you associated to some extent to the AVT group in IETF ?
13:52:10 [raphael]
Raphael: I feel the Issue 4 is mixing two things
13:52:24 [raphael]
a) the fact of selecting various tracks, or all tracks except 1
13:52:31 [raphael]
b) pre-selecting track names
13:52:45 [raphael]
Jack: for a) I think it should go to the version 2 of Media Fragments
13:53:03 [raphael]
... because we will end up soon to a presentation language behind the hash
13:53:26 [raphael]
... the problem is we cannot measure what amount of work it represents, nor to the people we need to talk too
13:54:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:54:50 [conrad]
http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/ROE
13:55:10 [raphael]
Davy: why not doing like RTSP ...
13:55:16 [raphael]
Raphael: this is the ROE way
13:58:09 [raphael]
Jack: we assume there is a mechanism for which the client can have a description of the media items
13:58:50 [Zakim]
+Yves
13:58:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
14:00:47 [raphael]
Conrad: clarification, the retrieval of the description is not in the media fragments, it is done before
14:06:52 [Yves]
http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/video/
14:07:13 [Yves]
so it includes lots of RFCs (not easy to republish)
14:07:14 [mhausenblas]
Michael: re issue 3, I mean it is always good to write the cover letter
14:07:42 [mhausenblas]
... just a matter of how the odds are that we can convince them, looking at the sheer number of potential clashes
14:08:12 [mhausenblas]
... where a clash is defined as a media type that defines frag semantics
14:08:26 [raphael]
Yves, hopefully, there will be 0 or 1 RFC impacted
14:08:37 [raphael]
... we really care when there is a clash
14:08:40 [mhausenblas]
... and these semantics contradict with ours
14:08:42 [Yves]
indeed
14:11:27 [raphael]
Jack: no, the syntax will not change
14:11:55 [raphael]
... we pass verbatim the track="value" to the server, and this is up to the server, capabilities of container formats
14:13:53 [raphael]
Conrad: I agree with you
14:14:13 [raphael]
... I think what we can get is just no audio or no video
14:14:25 [raphael]
Jack: I dont know what get 'audio' means in the general case
14:21:13 [raphael]
ACTION: Conrad to change the phrasing of the issue 4 (just audio/video)?
14:21:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Change the phrasing of the issue 4 (just audio/video)? [on Conrad Parker - due 2009-04-24].
14:21:38 [raphael]
Issue 6: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/6
14:22:57 [raphael]
Jack: the issue comes during the implementation trial, where I happily do some transcoding
14:23:12 [Yves]
my point was... "it is fuzzy"
14:23:58 [mhausenblas]
+q to ask for sanity check
14:23:59 [Yves]
I can point to... http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-06#section-3.6
14:23:59 [raphael]
Raphael: yes, thus the action-62, http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/62 now associated
14:24:17 [Yves]
Warning: 214 Transformation applied
14:24:35 [Yves]
(note that is is also in rfc2616)
14:26:04 [conrad]
4.3.2 Receipt of Warning: 214 Transformation Applied
14:26:04 [conrad]
If the response includes a Warning: 214 Transformation Applied HTTP header, proxies must not apply further transformation.
14:26:15 [raphael]
Proposal from Yves: not really implemented, but we could use the warning header to warn the UA there has been some transcoding
14:26:22 [Yves]
oh proxies can do further transformations
14:26:23 [mhausenblas]
ack me
14:26:23 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask for sanity check
14:26:39 [Yves]
it just warns the client that there was a transformation somewhere in the chain
14:27:28 [conrad]
i was quoting from http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/
14:27:45 [mhausenblas]
Michael: is this within our scope?
14:27:55 [mhausenblas]
... would like to see WG saying: YES!
14:29:19 [raphael]
Jack: should we care, as a standardisation group, whether there is transcoding or not
14:35:22 [conrad]
for formats that do not encode presentation in-points, we could add an HTTP response header to inform the client of the presentation time at which to enable rendering
14:39:45 [raphael]
Issue 5: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/5
14:39:58 [raphael]
Jack: this is just a heads up, for us
14:40:36 [raphael]
... we must remember if the server has done some clipping, it must send also the original w/h to the client
14:41:29 [raphael]
... in the case where the spatial cropping has been asked in terms of %
14:47:02 [raphael]
Raphael: my concern, are we stretching too much the definition of a fragment, when the fragment (= spatial clipping) has no single bytes in common from the original resource
14:47:14 [raphael]
... I hope this will be answered by Yve's action to TAG
14:47:45 [raphael]
... perhaps, we will say, this is not anymore a fragment, and recommend to use the ? rather than the # for this use case
14:48:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
14:52:11 [raphael]
Frank: this is an analogy of what is said for spatial but not said for temporal
14:53:27 [raphael]
Topic: 5. Wrap Up
14:53:47 [davy]
scribenick: davy
14:54:34 [davy]
raphael on the blackboard
14:55:56 [davy]
raphael: uc & req doc will be split
14:56:50 [davy]
... use cases and requirements and side conditions will be in a separate document
14:57:41 [davy]
... technologies survey in another document
14:58:31 [davy]
guillaume: uc & req should be first, then side conditions
14:59:16 [davy]
raphael: historically, side conditions were first
15:00:01 [davy]
mhausenblas: put survey in the uc & req doc
15:01:49 [davy]
proposal: uc & req doc and the technologies survey in one doc?
15:01:58 [erik]
+1
15:02:02 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:02:04 [davy]
+1
15:03:08 [davy]
guillaume: duplicate side conditions (both in working note and req docs)
15:03:27 [jackjansen]
+1
15:04:35 [mhausenblas]
s/req docs/REC docs
15:04:56 [davy]
jackjansen: in the rec, side conditions will be specified more formally
15:05:52 [davy]
raphael: spec will be rec
15:06:06 [Yves]
wg note as well for UC&req&survey
15:06:09 [davy]
... uc & req will be working note?
15:06:27 [davy]
all: working note
15:07:44 [Zakim]
-Mediafrag
15:08:04 [Zakim]
-Yves
15:08:04 [Zakim]
+Yves
15:08:04 [Zakim]
+Mediafrag
15:12:28 [mhausenblas]
should http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/ be in
15:12:39 [davy]
ACTION: raphael and erik to request feedback of other groups such as SYMM, SVG, HTML + WHATWG, WAI, MAWG, TAG, MobileWeb, TimedText, ...
15:12:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
15:13:46 [davy]
ACTION: Erik and Raphael to request feedback of other groups such as SYMM, SVG, HTML + WHATWG, WAI, MAWG, TAG, MobileWeb, TimedText
15:13:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-74 - And Raphael to request feedback of other groups such as SYMM, SVG, HTML + WHATWG, WAI, MAWG, TAG, MobileWeb, TimedText [on Erik Mannens - due 2009-04-24].
15:14:31 [davy]
raphael: planning for the next 6 months
15:15:33 [davy]
raphael: second public wd within 2-3 months
15:17:04 [davy]
jackjansen: 2nd wd in september
15:18:04 [davy]
raphael: if people do not provide feedback, we should find out why
15:18:36 [davy]
... Goal is to have a 2nd WD early in september
15:18:58 [davy]
erik: will the document already be split?
15:19:28 [davy]
raphael: yes, what about test cases?
15:19:54 [davy]
mhausenblas: would leave it in the wiki for a while
15:21:22 [davy]
raphael: current policy regarding editorship
15:22:08 [davy]
... which policy should we have?
15:22:40 [davy]
jackjansen: list everyone in the group or list everyone contributed a chapter
15:23:27 [davy]
mhausenblas: if someone writes something in the rec, then he/she is an editor
15:25:13 [davy]
... have two editors, then the contributers
15:26:18 [davy]
jackjansen: then we can assume that everyone is a contributor
15:26:32 [Yves]
yes, all the WG members at least
15:29:01 [jackjansen]
jackjansen has left #mediafrag
15:29:32 [davy]
raphael: looking at other w3c docs, they use editors and a number of contributors
15:29:32 [jackjansen]
jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
15:29:54 [davy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:29:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
15:30:40 [davy]
TOPIC: AOB
15:31:22 [davy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:31:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
15:31:32 [raphael]
Raphael: proposal on the blackboard is to have a number of editors (chairs ? team contact? others?) and all group members as contributors
15:31:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
15:33:17 [davy]
ACTION: raphael to split the document and setup the diff feature of xmlspec
15:33:17 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
15:33:24 [raphael]
trackbot, status?
15:33:43 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Semantics
15:33:56 [davy]
ACTION: raphaël to split the document and setup the diff feature of xmlspec
15:33:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-75 - Split the document and setup the diff feature of xmlspec [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2009-04-24].
15:34:09 [davy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:34:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
15:34:49 [Zakim]
-Yves
15:34:56 [Zakim]
+Yves
15:35:05 [raphael]
[adjourned]
15:35:07 [Zakim]
-Mediafrag
15:35:12 [Zakim]
-Yves
15:35:13 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()3:00AM has ended
15:35:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mediafrag, Yves
15:35:18 [raphael]
BIG THANKS for the local organizers
15:39:51 [davy]
davy has left #mediafrag
15:48:17 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #mediafrag
15:51:34 [ed_work]
ed_work has joined #mediafrag
15:54:53 [ed_work]
just skimming through http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/, section 8.3.1.1.1 says only rectangular regions can be supported...you can specify something like this: my.svg#svgView(transform(skewX(45)))
15:59:05 [ed_work]
also the example given, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Yalta_Conference.svg#svgView(14.64,15.73,146.98,147.48) is invalid
15:59:55 [ed_work]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Yalta_Conference.svg#svgView(viewBox(14.64,15.73,146.98,147.48)) would be valid and would show only that part of the svg
17:44:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediafrag
19:30:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Conrad to draw a representation of the general structure of a media resource, for streamable formats [1]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T07-32-40
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jack to commit in CVS (code directory) his python code doing the parsing on client side of the media fragment [2]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T09-10-02
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to investigate whether he could have an implementation in Javascript that does the client-side media fragments implementation [3]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T09-11-30
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael to setup template for test cases on wiki [4]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-51-20
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Conrad to change the phrasing of the issue 4 (just audio/video)? [5]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T14-21-13
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: raphael and erik to request feedback of other groups such as SYMM, SVG, HTML + WHATWG, WAI, MAWG, TAG, MobileWeb, TimedText, ... [6]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T15-12-39
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik and Raphael to request feedback of other groups such as SYMM, SVG, HTML + WHATWG, WAI, MAWG, TAG, MobileWeb, TimedText [7]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T15-13-46
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: raphael to split the document and setup the diff feature of xmlspec [8]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T15-33-17
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: raphaël to split the document and setup the diff feature of xmlspec [9]
19:30:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-mediafrag-irc#T15-33-56