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07:25:03 <fsasaki> meeting: mawg
07:25:06 <fsasaki> chair: daniel
07:25:10 <fsasaki> scribe: tbd
07:25:18 <fsasaki> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_(In_Progress)
07:25:41 <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
07:25:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
07:25:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be MAWG
07:25:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM scheduled to start 25 minutes ago
07:25:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Annotations Working Group Teleconference
07:25:47 <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2009
07:29:28 <Zakim> IA_MAWG()3:00AM has now started
07:29:35 <Zakim> +??P0
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07:32:27 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
07:35:35 <Zakim> +??P2
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07:36:52 <vrodrgue2> I am vroddon2 in skype
07:37:17 <Zakim> -Felix
07:38:17 <Zakim> -??P0
07:38:36 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
07:38:38 <Zakim> IA_MAWG()3:00AM has ended
07:38:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, Felix
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07:42:07 <daniel> felix, can you hear our voices ?
07:42:16 <fsasaki> very hard to hear
07:47:03 <shepazu> XMP also has broad support on deployed devices
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07:47:16 <shepazu> like cameras, videocams, etc.
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07:58:34 <daniel> canonical processes discussion proposed by Venonique
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08:07:59 <daniel> dave is talking about some issues and questions on UC&Req document.
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08:10:23 <wbailer> scribe: wbailer
08:10:51 <wbailer> dave: cross site scripting is an security issue for metadata access
08:11:08 <wbailer> ... mention that this is an issue, work on solution with other WGs
08:11:24 <wbailer> dave: issue: are annotations timed or not?
08:12:21 <wbailer> ... applys to different type of metadata: content description, rights, etc.
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08:12:57 <wbailer> ... metadata global to media item might be sufficient to start, but time-dependent metadata needs to be considered
08:13:05 <daniel> yeah, felix, the whether is very nice
08:13:08 <daniel> ..:-)
08:13:16 <wbailer> joakim: what is the media object? is a fragment a media object
08:13:32 <wbailer> joakim: needs to be defined
08:14:08 <wbailer> felix: this is an issue, do we need to solve it? could timed text approach be used for that
08:14:51 <wbailer> dave: time reference should be supported in api
08:15:17 <wbailer> joakim: doesn't media fragments solve that? uri describes fragment
08:15:27 <wbailer> joakim: bring up question in joined section
08:15:30 <fsasaki> felix: media fragments group mechanism might be helpful here
08:16:19 <wbailer> dave: use case "Access via web client to metadata in heterogeneous formats"
08:16:42 <wbailer> ... to which collection do the queries refer to? 
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08:18:09 <vmalais> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-req/mediaont-req.html?rev=1.57&content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
08:19:13 <wbailer> dave: specify what goes along the arrows in the diagram in section3
08:20:38 <wbailer> ACTION: felix to clarify arrow + descriptions for the diagram in section 3 of UC & req dcouments
08:20:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Clarify arrow + descriptions for the diagram in section 3 of UC & req dcouments [on Felix Sasaki - due 2009-04-23].
08:22:21 <wbailer> florian: uc 5.4 refers accessing the api from a search engine
08:23:45 <wbailer> joakim: check if attributes mentioned in attributes are covered by properties in mapping table
08:24:25 <wbailer> ACTION: veroniqueM to update canonical processes use cases
08:24:25 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - veroniqueM
08:24:53 <wbailer> ACTION: vmalais to update canonical processes use cases
08:24:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Update canonical processes use cases [on Véronique Malaisé - due 2009-04-23].
08:26:04 <daniel> coffee break
08:26:37 <daniel> and get back to the MXM discussion...
09:00:13 <wbailer> topic: mxm introduction
09:01:23 <wbailer> wonsuk presents short overview of mpeg extensible middleware
09:01:59 <wbailer> http://mxm.wg11.sc29.org/
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09:04:39 <daniel> resume the meeting with MXM introduction by Wonsuk
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09:17:16 <wbailer> wonsuk believes there is synergy between implementation of generic metadata engine in mxm and mawg
09:22:02 <wbailer> joakim: define basic set of entities and their mappings to different formats
09:22:19 <wbailer> ... in future, further formats could be added
09:23:41 <wbailer> ... define basic set of entities
09:23:56 <wbailer> veronique: from which formats to take definition of these entities
09:24:15 <wbailer> joakim: entities are internal to ontology
09:26:13 <wbailer> ... few, generic entities should be sufficient
09:26:43 <wbailer> jean-pierre: people will map to other formats - what to map to?
09:27:23 <wbailer> florian: a defined reference is necessary
09:28:36 <wbailer> florian: group and classify properties
09:29:27 <wbailer> jean-pierre: how are entities from different formats related
09:29:34 <wbailer> ... define metamodel?
09:29:54 <wbailer> ruben: define minimum set of core terms
09:30:16 <wbailer> jean-pierre: went through this discussion => ebu core
09:31:28 <wbailer> jean-pierre: europeana: reduce to 15 elements, then enriched
09:32:22 <wbailer> veronique: start with core set, xmp also has core set going back to DC + enrichments
09:32:40 <wbailer> ruben: ID3 is good example for basic metadata set
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09:33:28 <wbailer> joakim: publish set of general entities, make people think in terms of these entities
09:34:28 <wbailer> dave: we'd all like a metadata system with clear semantics, widely used
09:34:36 <wbailer> ... don't know how to get it
09:34:58 <wbailer> veronique: enforcing a format is not possible, mapping is the only option
09:35:22 <wbailer> florian: mapping always means loss of information
09:35:55 <wbailer> victor: mapping using semantic technologies can provide richer mapping than other apporaches
09:36:23 <wbailer> ... if set of entities is published in w3c recommendation people might be encouraged to use it
09:36:46 <wbailer> florian: problem is different semantics in enrichment of standards
09:37:15 <wbailer> ... build simple core ontology, can be extended to build complex annotation
09:38:13 <wbailer> jean-pierre: kind of combination of dc and mpeg-7 reflects interest of people in wg, but not of interest
09:38:25 <fsasaki> +1 to a simple set of properties
09:38:39 <wbailer> jean-pierre: unthinkable combination
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09:40:08 <wbailer> jean-pierre: we have even not agreed on which format to use for describing mappings
09:40:46 <wbailer> jean-pierre: most search engines make search based on brute force
09:41:04 <wbailer> veronique: there are swoogle type of search engines
09:41:25 <wbailer> jean-pierre: even if there's an api for mapping different formats- will it be used
09:43:19 <wbailer> joakim: assemble domain knowledge, not filter it
09:43:49 <wbailer> jean-pierre: work would be simple if all formats would be described already in rdf
09:44:10 <wbailer> joakim: thought that 1:1 mapping of properties makes work easier
09:44:41 <wbailer> veronique: adding entities and their relations would mean defining another ontology
09:45:01 <wbailer> joakim: grouping properties like in xmp
09:45:56 <wbailer> florian: define ontology, provide browsing properties without the need to understand owl
09:46:30 <wbailer> veronique: develop ontology for grouping, avoid define another metadata format
09:47:03 <wbailer> dave: no reason to prefer certain format, define properties and mappings to existing formats
09:47:11 <wbailer> ... not really defining a new ontology
09:47:39 <wbailer> ... not saying that tags we are mapping to are equivalent
09:50:23 <wbailer> veronique: do people agree to define basic set of terms?
09:50:37 <wbailer> jean-pierre: set of basic terms or superset?
09:51:02 <wbailer> dave: subset of what you reasonable want and expect to get
09:51:04 <fsasaki> +1 to dave
09:51:28 <wbailer> joakim: isn't that just dublinc core?
09:51:41 <wbailer> veronqiue: is this really all we want?
09:51:56 <wbailer> florian: in an image, one wants to annotate content
09:52:51 <wbailer> ruben: doing better and more precise might be understand as just another ontology
09:53:48 <wbailer> felix: what we're doing is developing dc for media
09:53:58 <wbailer> ... not bad to refer to dc
09:54:11 <wbailer> ... mappings to other formats not availble yet
09:54:45 <wbailer> ... lots of mappings available for dc elements in mapping table, getting thinner for other elements
09:55:04 <wbailer> felix: concern that group is doing too much and progressing too slow
09:55:27 <wbailer> ... doing something simple for v1 and more complex for v2 might be a useful approach
09:56:03 <wbailer> daniel: make first basic version, gather feedback and improve based on feedback
09:56:24 <wbailer> daniel reminds of wg charter
09:56:50 <wbailer> jean-pierre: in a simple approach, we define a list of terms (might be some as dc or xmp)
09:57:08 <wbailer> ... let's see if we agree on list of terms
09:57:32 <wbailer> ... define list of entities and mapping, including mapping dc and xmp to that list
09:57:46 <wbailer> joakim: everyone agrees?
09:58:13 <wbailer> no disagreement
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09:58:27 <wbailer> jean-pierre: subclasses could be useful
09:58:38 <wbailer> florian: would increase semantic expressiveness
09:59:25 <wbailer> topic: review of mapping table
10:02:12 <wbailer> joakim: level of conformance of implementations to be defined
10:02:41 <wbailer> jean-pierre: implementation cannot mean change implementations
10:02:56 <wbailer> joakim: have several levels of conformance?
10:03:22 <daniel> implementation volunteering (in this room): Joakim, Wonsuk, Werner
10:04:04 <wbailer> jean-pierre: api for mapping = conformance
10:04:47 <wbailer> joakim: what about proprietary formats of service provideers
10:04:58 <wbailer> s/provideers/providers/
10:05:52 <wbailer> jean-pierre: format should not be used as data model
10:06:31 <wbailer> joakim: there are specific formats in business domains
10:06:44 <wbailer> ... use this in generic deployment environment
10:07:16 <wbailer> jean-pierre: boundaries between delivery channels are disappearing
10:07:44 <wbailer> ... don't want to reinvent how to describe broadcast content
10:08:55 <wbailer> dave: if there is a recommendation of comment set, why would broadcasters not use it?
10:09:12 <wbailer> jean-pierre: broadcasters would keep their formats and use mappings
10:09:51 <wbailer> dave: if there's a recommendation for set of properties, they would try to conform (in their formats)
10:11:52 <wbailer> florian: common set of entities is needed for querying across several formats
10:14:42 <wbailer> jean-pierre: content provider would not implement for mapping
10:14:51 <wbailer> veronique: at least not large providers
10:17:19 <wbailer> jean-pierre: we should not reject any particular type of metadata
10:18:21 <wbailer> ... for the time being we have a restricted set of formats for which we have defined mappings
10:18:37 <wbailer> ... everyone should be able to map their format
10:19:29 <wbailer> jean-pierre: restrictions may come from the way the api is writter
10:19:36 <wbailer> s/writter/written/
10:20:02 <wbailer> veronique: skos might not be sufficient for describing the mappings
10:21:49 <wbailer> ruben: if the internal format is hidden to the user, why standardise the mappings?
10:22:04 <wbailer> ... api only is visible
10:22:25 <wbailer> jean-pierre: like dc, this would mean publishing list of terms
10:22:47 <wbailer> florian: why should mapping rules be standardised?
10:23:38 <wbailer> ruben: mapping can be useful, but can be informative
10:24:06 <wbailer> jean-pierre: mapping is mechanism to discover the set of entities
10:24:21 <wbailer> ... but mappings need not be normative
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10:25:19 <wbailer> jean-pierre: simple list of properties is not incompatible with more complex ontology
10:25:54 <wbailer> felix: simple approach is good
10:26:10 <wbailer> ... description of relation to other formats is very valuable
10:26:23 <wbailer> ... continue review of mappings
10:27:16 <wbailer> veronique: would api be implementation of mappings?
10:27:54 <wbailer> jean-pierre: is there need for an api?
10:28:16 <wbailer> ... if format in which to publish information is defined
10:28:42 <wbailer> felix: api is useful for making mapping testable
10:30:00 <wbailer> joakim: does that require solving data type issue of return values?
10:30:22 <wbailer> felix, dave: not necessary for making testable assertions
10:31:10 <wonsuk> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/
10:31:46 <wbailer> veronique: list of terms, when to define?
10:31:49 <wbailer> joakim: now
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10:36:02 <wbailer> joakim: column with names of entities will be added to mapping table
10:36:20 <wbailer> ... then review and agree on format reviews
10:37:23 <wbailer> veronique: are mappings one way or bidirectional?
10:37:33 <wbailer> dave: one way only
10:38:04 <wbailer> victor: refine mappings, specify transitivity, conditions under which properties are equivalent, etc
10:38:14 <wbailer> ... precising the relationship further
10:38:43 <wbailer> ... cardinalities
10:39:03 <wbailer> .. priorities in case of several mappings
10:39:30 <wbailer> joakim: refining further would be necessary for supporting setting scenario
10:39:50 <wbailer> dave: setting raises problem of value ranges of different formats
10:40:30 <wbailer> joakim: future version of mapping table with refined semantics
10:44:26 <wbailer> dave: choose terms that can be read from many formats
10:44:49 <wbailer> jean-pierre: there might be terms that are useful but not (yet) widely supported
10:45:51 <wbailer> rrsagent, make logs public
10:45:59 <wbailer> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:45:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
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13:18:56 <chris> \me sais hi from Indianapolis
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13:26:23 <vrodrgue> (test)
13:26:49 <joakim> hi we are back!
13:27:02 <joakim> Wonsuk will scribe
13:27:35 <joakim> Felix can you here us speak?
13:28:31 <dsinger> the idea is that we take the spreadsheet and attempt to identify the top 12 or so attributes we believe should be in the 'common schema'
13:28:58 <dsinger> we go around the table, each person names about 12 that they like, and we see where we are in agreement, and haggle about the rest
13:29:03 <wonsuk> topic: review mapping table
13:40:45 <fsasaki> Felix: pasting mine into IRC: 10 dc:identifier, 6 dc:creator, 7 dc:date, 4 dc:contributor, 11 dc:language, 13 dc:rights, 16 dc:subject, 17 dc:title, 12 dc:publisher, 18 dc:type, 27 xmp:Rating, 82 xmp:videoFrameSize
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13:46:33 <wbailer> thanks, Felix, Dave has entered your choice into his sheet
13:46:42 <fsasaki> thank you
13:52:44 <wonsuk> dave: added Support Level and Cumulative votes to the sheet
13:56:05 <wonsuk> s/Support Level/Formats Supporting/
13:59:37 <wonsuk> victor: dc:rights and xmpDM:copyright is different information
14:00:54 <wonsuk> wbailer: difference btw dc:rights and xmpDM:copyright is not clear
14:04:11 <wonsuk> wbailer: xmp:Identifier is better more identifier than dc:identifier
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14:10:08 <wonsuk> scribe: wonsuk
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14:20:19 <vrodrgue> ...
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14:53:45 <wonsuk> Dave: Added Initial Identification to wiki
14:53:52 <wonsuk> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Top_Supported_Tags
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15:21:45 <dsinger> we're tentatively scheduling, separately from fragments, for June 25-26 in Stockholm
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