11:58:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
11:58:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc
11:58:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:58:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
11:58:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
11:58:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
11:58:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
11:58:36 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2009
11:59:09 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Apr/0019.html
11:59:16 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()8:00AM has now started
11:59:23 <Zakim> +raphael
11:59:33 <raphael> Regrets: Michael, Conrad
12:00:06 <raphael> Scribe: Silvia
12:00:11 <raphael> scribenick: nessy
12:00:26 <Zakim> +nessy
12:00:40 <raphael> Chair: Erik, Raphael
12:01:27 <Zakim> +Yves
12:03:21 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
12:03:47 <raphael> Present: Silvia, Raphael, Yves, Davy, Erik
12:04:18 <nessy> Topic: ADMIN
12:04:55 <nessy> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 01st April 2009 telecon:
12:04:55 <nessy> http://www.w3.org/2009/04/01-mediafrag-minutes.html
12:04:58 <raphael> +1
12:05:05 <davy> +1
12:05:22 <nessy> Topic: Upcoming F2F Meeting in Barcelona:
12:05:42 <nessy> raphael: no teleconf next week but F2F on Thu & Fri
12:05:48 <erik> erik has joined #mediafrag
12:05:58 <nessy> ... no teleconf the week after F2F because of WWW conf
12:06:04 <nessy> ... next teleconf is on 29th April
12:06:08 <nessy> ... any objections?
12:06:25 <nessy> nessy: no objections
12:06:43 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
12:06:49 <nessy> raphael: this hour is more convenient for Silvia & Conrad
12:06:50 <jackjansen> [ot] on my way...
12:06:56 <nessy> ... we keep this hour 
12:07:38 <nessy> Agenda building
12:07:39 <nessy> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ThirdF2FAgenda
12:08:03 <Zakim> +jackjansen
12:08:27 <nessy> ... will assume until 2pm it is reasonable to have Silvia on phone
12:08:51 <nessy> ... will make proposal to put discussion points into time slots
12:09:18 <nessy> ... a discussion on each section of the WD
12:10:34 <nessy> nessy: suggestion to have another HTTP 2-way / 4-way discussion to get Conrad's input
12:10:46 <nessy> ... wants to be present for that
12:10:59 <nessy> raphael: is planned and will take place in the morning
12:11:32 <nessy> Topic: PREPARATION OF WORKING DRAFT
12:11:42 <Zakim> -Erik
12:11:47 <nessy> raphael: go through section per section and distribute actions
12:11:57 <nessy> ... Introduction
12:12:54 <nessy> nessy: volunteers to write the introduction
12:13:05 <erik> erik has joined #mediafrag
12:13:08 <nessy> ACTION: nessy to write introduction
12:13:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - nessy
12:13:17 <nessy> ACTION: silvia to write introduction
12:13:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - Write introduction [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:13:43 <nessy> raphael: discussion on order of the first three sections
12:15:15 <raphael> Silvia: i need to revisit the framework, side conditions
12:15:24 <raphael> ... re: issue with transcoding
12:15:32 <raphael> ... this should go first
12:15:37 <jackjansen> q+
12:15:52 <raphael> ... and then talk about the use cases and scenarios and ultimately, the dimensions
12:15:59 <raphael> zakim, ack jackjansen
12:15:59 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
12:16:25 <nessy> jackjansen: if requirements move up, we need something that gets people in the right frame of mind
12:16:25 <raphael> Jack: put the requirements first might break the flow of the reading
12:16:58 <raphael> q+
12:17:31 <nessy> Silvia: most sections are still independent blocks
12:17:37 <nessy> ... we need lead-over text
12:17:55 <nessy> ... introduction will set the stage, requirements set the framework
12:18:09 <nessy> Jack: maybe move use cases into appendix
12:18:45 <nessy> raphael: use cases are core to the understanding or our challenges and provide motivation for the dimensions
12:19:10 <nessy> ... might be interesting to move the "requirements" up - might be renamed to "side conditions"
12:19:27 <nessy> Jack: agrees to move up "side conditions"
12:19:32 <nessy> ... requirements are really section 5
12:20:23 <nessy> raphael: new order is 1, 2, 4, 3, 5
12:20:48 <nessy> .. rename 4 -> side conditions
12:20:53 <nessy> ... rename 5 -> requirements
12:20:56 <nessy> nessy: agree
12:21:11 <nessy> Jack: agree
12:21:16 <raphael> +1
12:21:51 <erik> what about typical UC per axis (temporal/spatial/track/named) to get the reader acquainted with the problems (and special cases to appendix)?
12:22:32 <nessy> ACTION: silvia to make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5
12:22:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5 [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:22:58 <Zakim> +Erik
12:23:12 <nessy> raphael will make structural changes to WD directly after the teleconf
12:23:25 <nessy> ... silvia can then work on it when she has time
12:24:06 <nessy> erik: there are a lot of use cases and it may be interesting to move some to appendix
12:24:59 <raphael> Erik: i wonder if the individual use cases should be ordered differently, following the various dimensions: time, space, track, name
12:25:13 <raphael> Silvia: I think it is better to group them as they are, by functionality
12:25:43 <nessy> ... they make for fast reading and need to be part of the reading flow
12:26:04 <nessy> raphael: what about moving the out-of-scope cases into a separate section
12:26:17 <nessy> jack: I like it that the use cases are ordered by usage
12:26:37 <nessy> .. problem is that there are so many and they slow down reading speed
12:27:00 <nessy> ... 17 different use cases may be too much detail
12:27:20 <nessy> raphael: original charter had 2 documents - a use cases & requirements ... and a technology document
12:27:28 <nessy> ... we now have all in one document
12:27:39 <nessy> ... we can later split documents again if it is too much to read
12:27:43 <nessy> ... can discuss at F2F
12:27:47 <nessy> ... should leave it for now
12:27:57 <nessy> ... so we have the current status together in a single document
12:28:04 <nessy> jack: ok leave it as is
12:29:11 <nessy> nessy: agree
12:29:24 <nessy> raphael: section 5
12:29:55 <nessy> ... replace the numbers with req-xx
12:30:02 <nessy> ... and move the table to an appendix
12:30:35 <raphael> Raphael: replace the 1,2,3 in the fitness table by human readable labels: fit, partial, etc.
12:30:36 <nessy> jack: instead of having the table 5.5, it makes more sense to list the types of capabilities containers have
12:31:59 <nessy> nessy to add a note to the table & running text that we ask people for input to the table to complete it
12:32:01 <raphael> Silvia: add also an editorial note in the main text to warn the commnity we need their input to complete this table
12:33:39 <nessy> nessy: I will add these changes
12:33:53 <nessy> raphael: section 6
12:33:59 <nessy> ... improved heaps
12:35:16 <nessy> erik: if we should move stuff to appendix, we can live with that
12:35:26 <nessy> ... table in 6.3 still needs heaps of input
12:36:03 <nessy> raphael: MPEG-7 has track references
12:37:45 <nessy> nessy: HTML5 should be removed, since it will do whatever we define
12:40:43 <nessy> nessy: replace "temporal URI" with "temporal URI/Ogg" to include the track addressing, to
12:41:07 <nessy> ... "Annodex" would be correct, too, but "temporal URI" is the best known spec out of this
12:42:12 <nessy> raphael: should section 6 be moved down in the document, so we can get specifications first?
12:42:19 <nessy> erik: I can live with that
12:42:44 <nessy> raphael: I will move this section down and do all structural changes on document directly after the meeting before anyone else will edit again
12:43:09 <nessy> jack: editorial suggestion - 6.2 is formatted completely different from 6.1
12:43:21 <nessy> ... formatting of 6.1 is great - could we apply it to 6.2 ?
12:43:53 <nessy> erik: will make changes
12:44:09 <nessy> ACTION: erik to apply changes to section 6
12:44:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Apply changes to section 6 [on Erik Mannens - due 2009-04-15].
12:44:41 <nessy> raphael: section 7
12:45:07 <nessy> ... in section 7.3 we stop talking about fragments, but talk about sections or segments
12:45:24 <erik> q+
12:45:25 <nessy> ... 7.3 needs an introductory note
12:45:51 <nessy> jack: I will create an introductory note and explain that it can be either a fragment or a query
12:46:14 <nessy> jack: we need some standard terminology
12:46:50 <nessy> raphael: do we call it dimensions or axes
12:47:00 <nessy> s/axes/axis/
12:47:41 <nessy> general consensus on "dimension
12:48:12 <nessy> jack: do we prefer "temporal" over "time" - "spatial" over "space" - "named" over "name"?
12:48:21 <nessy> ... track will stay track
12:48:21 <raphael> +1
12:48:35 <nessy> ... all others become "temporal", "spatial", "named"
12:48:42 <nessy> nessy: +1
12:49:02 <nessy> jack: I tend to use "clipping" for temporal and "cropping" for spatial
12:49:10 <nessy> ... is that a good idea or should we just use one?
12:50:14 <nessy> nessy: "clipping" has a different implication for audio ... maybe "cutting"?
12:50:40 <nessy> jack: but we use "audio clip"
12:50:44 <nessy> nessy: ok, fair enough
12:51:08 <nessy> jack: 7.4 might need more structure ... but how
12:51:31 <nessy> ... is still very incomplete
12:51:46 <nessy> ... need to continue collecting semantic issues
12:51:48 <raphael> Semantic issue: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/3
12:51:59 <nessy> ... restructure when we have a more complete collection
12:52:24 <nessy> nessy: suggestion to add a note to the section explaining the need to contribute more semantic issues
12:52:28 <nessy> jack: ok, will do
12:52:39 <nessy> raphael: section 8
12:52:52 <nessy> ... Yves pointed out that 4-way contained errors
12:54:00 <nessy> Yves: did not understand from temporal URI where the resolution of time-bytes happens
12:55:28 <nessy> nessy: I will go back and read that section again and make sure the 4-way is correctly specified
12:55:41 <nessy> ACTION: silvia and conrad to review 4-way handshake specification
12:55:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - And conrad to review 4-way handshake specification [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:55:52 <Yves> and I note that there is still a discussion on the ML ;)
12:56:19 <nessy> raphael: should reply be 204 in initial handshake for 4-way handshake
12:56:32 <nessy> Yves: if you're sending content, then no
12:57:29 <nessy> jack: that is missing in the specification
12:57:39 <nessy> nessy: header is being sent in first handshake
12:57:54 <nessy> jack: in 2-way handshake this may be missing, too - but it's more complicated
12:58:19 <nessy> raphael: silvia & conrad - please make changes in wiki ... I will then sync the wiki with the WD myself
12:58:24 <nessy> nessy: ok
12:58:45 <raphael> ACTION-55?
12:58:45 <trackbot> ACTION-55 -- Yves Lafon to change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
12:58:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/55
12:58:48 <nessy> rapahel: quick action review
12:59:01 <raphael> close ACTION-55
12:59:02 <trackbot> ACTION-55 Change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled closed
12:59:06 <raphael> ACTION-56?
12:59:06 <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Yves Lafon to change the formal grammar to have unreserved characters + %-escaped ones in utf8string and _not_ a set of pchars -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
12:59:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/56
12:59:22 <raphael> close ACTION-56
12:59:22 <trackbot> ACTION-56 Change the formal grammar to have unreserved characters + %-escaped ones in utf8string and _not_ a set of pchars closed
12:59:28 <nessy> close ACTION-55
12:59:28 <trackbot> ACTION-55 Change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled closed
12:59:49 <raphael> Yves: I have just done a small modification in the ABNF synta
13:00:15 <nessy> Yves: I added pchar to make it consistent
13:00:23 <raphael> Jack: to move these changes in the WD
13:00:33 <raphael> ACTION-49?
13:00:33 <trackbot> ACTION-49 -- Yves Lafon to draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units (completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) -- due 2009-03-25 -- OPEN
13:00:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/49
13:00:51 <nessy> still open
13:00:57 <raphael> close ACTION-51
13:00:57 <trackbot> ACTION-51 Summarize the content of the wiki page to put in the main document, with few examples and a short story closed
13:01:09 <nessy> erik finalized that
13:01:12 <raphael> ACTION-57?
13:01:12 <trackbot> ACTION-57 -- Jack Jansen to enter formally in the tracker the ISSUE he has found, regarding a) transcoding and b) spatial cropping -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
13:01:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/57
13:01:18 <raphael> close ACTION-57
13:01:18 <trackbot> ACTION-57 Enter formally in the tracker the ISSUE he has found, regarding a) transcoding and b) spatial cropping closed
13:01:24 <nessy> jack finalized 57
13:01:41 <nessy> Topic: AOB
13:02:06 <nessy> raphael: we will not publish document tomorrow
13:02:16 <nessy> ... let's aim for publication on Tuesday
13:02:49 <nessy> ... would prefer making the request to publish it before the F2F because the WWW conference will delay it further otherwise
13:03:08 <nessy> nessy: +1
13:03:35 <nessy> raphael: thanks for attending conference and will see you next week
13:03:38 <Zakim> -jackjansen
13:03:39 <Zakim> -Yves
13:03:45 <Zakim> -Erik
13:03:47 <Zakim> -raphael
13:03:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
13:03:48 <Zakim> -nessy
13:03:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:03:50 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()8:00AM has ended
13:03:52 <Zakim> Attendees were raphael, nessy, Yves, +329331aaaa, Erik, jackjansen
13:03:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:05:32 <raphael> will give it a try
13:05:45 <raphael> type: s/ok/Topic: Actions Review
13:06:13 <raphael> s/ok/Topic: Actions Review
13:06:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:09:09 <nessy> s/rapahel: quick action review/Topic: action review/
13:12:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:14:08 <raphael> zakim, bye
13:14:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:15:24 <davy> davy has joined #mediafrag
13:18:13 <raphael> oh, you read in my mind :-)
13:18:15 <raphael> I'm hapy
13:18:21 <raphael> s/hapy/happy
13:18:37 <raphael> zakim, bye
13:18:47 <raphael> RRSAgent, bye
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: nessy to write introduction [1]
13:18:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc#T12-13-08
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: silvia to write introduction [2]
13:18:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc#T12-13-17
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: silvia to make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5 [3]
13:18:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc#T12-22-32
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: erik to apply changes to section 6 [4]
13:18:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc#T12-44-09
13:18:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: silvia and conrad to review 4-way handshake specification [5]
13:18:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-mediafrag-irc#T12-55-41