IRC log of xhtml on 2009-03-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:52:38 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
- 12:52:38 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-irc
- 12:52:45 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #xhtml
- 12:52:52 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 12:53:06 [Steven]
- Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF
- 12:53:13 [Steven]
- Chair: Roland
- 12:54:47 [Steven]
- zakim, room for 8 at 13:00z for 240 mins?
- 12:54:49 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
- 12:55:00 [Roland]
- Roland has joined #xhtml
- 12:55:39 [oedipus]
- agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
- 12:55:51 [oedipus]
- scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
- 12:55:57 [oedipus]
- ScribeNick: oedipus
- 12:56:03 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 12:56:03 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 12:56:10 [Steven]
- code is CONF4
- 12:56:24 [Steven]
- 26634
- 12:56:36 [Steven]
- Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF4 (26634)
- 12:56:59 [Zakim]
- Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started
- 12:57:01 [Zakim]
- +Roland_Merrick
- 12:57:17 [Roland]
- Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
- 12:57:17 [Zakim]
- +Roland; got it
- 12:57:33 [Zakim]
- +Gregory_Rosmaita
- 12:57:35 [Zakim]
- -Gregory_Rosmaita
- 12:57:35 [Zakim]
- +Gregory_Rosmaita
- 12:58:17 [mgylling]
- mgylling has joined #xhtml
- 12:59:40 [Zakim]
- + +46.7.06.02.aaaa
- 12:59:58 [oedipus]
- previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html
- 13:00:10 [oedipus]
- zakim, aaaa is Markus
- 13:00:10 [Zakim]
- +Markus; got it
- 13:00:16 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:00:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:00:30 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 13:00:30 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 13:00:32 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 13:01:40 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: Agenda Review
- 13:01:56 [Roland]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
- 13:02:40 [oedipus]
- 4 XHTML2 items: the P content model, Navigation (nl in or out?), Semantics and Elements versus Attributes, how to incorportate ITS
- 13:02:55 [oedipus]
- RM: start with news from the A.C. meeting once reach critical mass
- 13:03:08 [alessio]
- alessio has joined #xhtml
- 13:03:16 [oedipus]
- SP: would very much like to report, but want shane and mark to be here when i do
- 13:03:57 [oedipus]
- RM: brief update on PER
- 13:04:20 [oedipus]
- zakim, who is here?
- 13:04:20 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven
- 13:04:21 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
- 13:05:33 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 13:05:41 [oedipus]
- MG: Shane said he'd be late yesterday
- 13:05:48 [oedipus]
- zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
- 13:05:48 [Zakim]
- +Alessio; got it
- 13:05:49 [alessio]
- zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
- 13:05:49 [Zakim]
- I already had ??P17 as Alessio, alessio
- 13:06:17 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:06:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:06:53 [oedipus]
- scribe's note: [steven ping outliers]
- 13:07:43 [oedipus]
- minutes from last regularly scheduled meeting: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-xhtml-minutes.html
- 13:08:06 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:08:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:08:46 [oedipus]
- RM: brief update with PER?
- 13:08:50 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: PER Update
- 13:09:34 [oedipus]
- SP: didn't make friday deadline due to AC meetings; have to get fiinished; still moritorium this week on publishing due to AC meeting, should be published next week, if all goes according to plan
- 13:09:45 [oedipus]
- RM: just matter of questoinnaires?
- 13:10:21 [oedipus]
- SP: PER has to be voted upon; extra administrivia - creating detailed questionnaires with pointers (creating now - have to go out simultaneously with PER anouncement)
- 13:10:26 [oedipus]
- RM: that's all we need do?
- 13:10:28 [oedipus]
- SP: yes
- 13:10:37 [oedipus]
- RM: any other administrivia?
- 13:10:57 [oedipus]
- scribe's note: deafining silence
- 13:12:27 [oedipus]
- GJR: in response to feedback and discussion at last virtual f2f i have updated the "for" attribute proposal
- 13:12:28 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
- 13:12:37 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM has joined #xhtml
- 13:13:11 [oedipus]
- GJR: changes: proposed for Text Attributes collection, not Core collection
- 13:14:10 [oedipus]
- 1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be repurposed and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels;
- 13:14:10 [oedipus]
- 2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for: ABBR, D (the single letter "dialogue" element), DFN;
- 13:14:10 [oedipus]
- 3. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of binding a quotation, contained in the Q element, and a corresponding CITE declaration which identifies the source of the quote;
- 13:14:11 [oedipus]
- 4. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of marking text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as illustrated below;
- 13:14:13 [Zakim]
- +McCarron
- 13:14:21 [ShaneM]
- zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
- 13:14:21 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM; got it
- 13:14:37 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:14:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:15:18 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: News & Notes - AC Meeting Report
- 13:15:32 [oedipus]
- SP: much of AC meeting, but not all, in sphere of HTML5 and XHTML2
- 13:16:40 [oedipus]
- SP: started monday morning with panel - XHTML2 side represented by myself and ben adida (made cross-continental day trip); neutral people: Larry McMaster from Adobe; and HTML5 people represented mainly by David Baron
- 13:17:19 [oedipus]
- SP: nothing much to report about it; Hegeret was chair; put questions to panel; people in audience put questions as well -- no demos, just Q&A
- 13:17:24 [oedipus]
- RM: link to AC minutes?
- 13:17:58 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes.html
- 13:18:07 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes#item02
- 13:18:09 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/03/22-ac-minutes
- 13:18:13 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-ac-minutes
- 13:19:21 [oedipus]
- SP: Chaals McN web standards oriented; Larry MM neutral; Sam Ruby co-chair of HTML WG; David Baron works for Mozilla, very much HTML5er; Henry Thompson, Ben Adida and myself (Steven Pemberton)
- 13:19:57 [oedipus]
- SP: at least 2 negative comments from audience: Daniel Glazman (not there physically but on IRC) - very anti-XHTML2
- 13:21:01 [oedipus]
- SP: Arun (represents mozilla) - need to ask why against XHTML2 in W3C? don't think mozilla is anti-XHTML2, but hard to separate personal opinions from corporate agendas; aim is to close down XHTML2
- 13:21:21 [oedipus]
- SP: good feedback after panel; lots of red herrings being spread in discussion; tried to expose falicies
- 13:21:40 [oedipus]
- SP: after that meeting had breakout groups - about 20 in XHTML2 breakout group
- 13:22:13 [oedipus]
- SP: not minuted in IRC, hand-made minutes - trying to find if up in w3c space yet
- 13:23:02 [oedipus]
- SP: 2 breakout groups: 1st day: discuss issues (extended panel) - on second day, discussion on what to do with situation
- 13:23:51 [oedipus]
- SP: second breakout more interesting; discussion unencumbered by knowledge of what XHTML2 is all about; Raman and Charlie Wiecha of IBM knes about XHTML2, but rest of participants very shallow knowledge
- 13:24:22 [Tina]
- Tina has joined #xhtml
- 13:24:25 [oedipus]
- SP: asked who is using 2 technologies; one person said, "since HTML5 seeks to make all pages conformant to HTML5, HTML5 is what people use
- 13:24:44 [oedipus]
- SP: explained modularization and the packaging of modules to create XHTML2
- 13:25:10 [oedipus]
- SP: because our charter has always been modularization, modules are deliverables; XHTML2 is a collectoin
- 13:25:39 [oedipus]
- SP: Arun surprised that there are big companies using XHTML and XForms
- 13:26:11 [oedipus]
- SP: meeting concluded with agreement that Sam Ruby and Steven Pemberton should work on merging HTML5 and XHTML2
- 13:26:52 [oedipus]
- SP: made it very clear in meeting that these aren't 2 slightly different markup languages, because underlying MVC architecture in XHTML2, that is laacking in HTMl5; would have to get HTML5 WG to accept that architecture so 2 can be merged
- 13:27:11 [oedipus]
- q+
- 13:28:24 [oedipus]
- SP: if choice between merging and not merging, think should keep separate unless agree to accept XForms and extensibility
- 13:29:57 [oedipus]
- SP: SamR and i can discuss to ascertain options
- 13:30:08 [oedipus]
- SP: in conclusion, think that we are now in stronger position
- 13:30:44 [oedipus]
- SP: 2 things can happen: HTML5 people reject collaboration or we do merge and HTML5 people required to take our approaches on board (m12n, MVC, etc.)
- 13:30:56 [oedipus]
- SP: either of those 2 choices much better than shutting down XHTML2
- 13:31:03 [oedipus]
- q?
- 13:31:22 [oedipus]
- SP: SamRuby is new co-chair of HTML5 - very positive interaction with him
- 13:31:52 [oedipus]
- SP: Sam Ruby wants to work together, but a lot of work to herd that enourmous herd of cats in HTML WG
- 13:32:33 [oedipus]
- SP: doubt that core HTML5 people will accept collaboration
- 13:32:41 [ShaneM]
- zakim, code?
- 13:32:41 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
- 13:33:08 [oedipus]
- GJR: did sam mention the initative at mozilla to produce a rival spec to HTML5?
- 13:33:08 [oedipus]
- http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b
- 13:33:08 [oedipus]
- https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665
- 13:34:14 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 13:34:28 [oedipus]
- RM: take more stable to have third version of HTML5
- 13:34:47 [oedipus]
- RM: pragmatic - how to achieve a deliverable
- 13:34:51 [Tina]
- Zakim, P15 is Tina
- 13:34:51 [Zakim]
- sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
- 13:34:55 [oedipus]
- SP: wasn't mentioned
- 13:35:04 [oedipus]
- zakim, +??P15 is Tina
- 13:35:04 [Zakim]
- sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'
- 13:35:09 [oedipus]
- zakim, ??P15 is Tina
- 13:35:09 [Zakim]
- +Tina; got it
- 13:35:14 [Tina]
- Thank ye
- 13:35:16 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:35:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:35:19 [Tina]
- Zakim, mute me
- 13:35:19 [Zakim]
- Tina should now be muted
- 13:35:54 [oedipus]
- GJR: previous pointers: Rob Sayre of IBM is producing a new draft which is hixie's draft minus new inventions plus all the stuff that was removed
- 13:36:18 [oedipus]
- RM: will be taking features from HTML5 spec and adding them on; means of incrementally deploying HTML5
- 13:36:19 [Steven]
- http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978
- 13:36:26 [oedipus]
- GJR: being deployed by fiat now
- 13:36:29 [Tina]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 13:36:29 [Zakim]
- Tina should no longer be muted
- 13:36:41 [oedipus]
- SM: more socially acceptable
- 13:37:11 [oedipus]
- RM: extensibility already being done by implementation by fiat of HTML5
- 13:37:31 [oedipus]
- SP: one discussion at AC meeting in first day's breakout group was lack of extensibility
- 13:37:48 [oedipus]
- SP: consensus of breakout group was extensibility needs to be supported
- 13:37:51 [oedipus]
- q+
- 13:38:01 [oedipus]
- SP: from POV of merging, extensibility essential
- 13:38:14 [oedipus]
- SP: long discussions about extensibility and what needs to be able to be done
- 13:38:30 [oedipus]
- SM: agreed upon definition of term "extensibility"?
- 13:39:23 [oedipus]
- SP: no definition or agreement on what would fall under rubric of extensibility; put forward strong view that people should be able to add own elements and attributes in standard way to foster new forms; cited XBL as example
- 13:39:34 [oedipus]
- SP: when i trace minutes for breakout groups will post link
- 13:39:38 [oedipus]
- ack oed
- 13:40:14 [oedipus]
- GJR: from WAI/PF's point of view extensibility and namespacing is essential, otherwise we will end up with ARIA 1.0 hard coded into HTML5, but we are already working on ARIA 2.0
- 13:41:05 [oedipus]
- GJR: WAI/PF needs to retain control over ARIA's vocabulary and definitions
- 13:41:22 [oedipus]
- SP: some people surprised that ARIA sprang from XHTML Role Module
- 13:41:54 [oedipus]
- SP: good to have BenA there on first day; would be wrong to give XML serialization to a group of people who fundamentally oppose and disllike XML/XHTML
- 13:41:59 [Zakim]
- -ShaneM
- 13:42:10 [oedipus]
- s/would be/Ben stated that it would be/
- 13:42:13 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:42:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:42:29 [oedipus]
- RM: return to this later - have a few comments
- 13:42:46 [oedipus]
- SP: worth watching discussion on AC forum; have to be on AC to contribute
- 13:43:03 [oedipus]
- GJR: one could always use www-archive for comments pointed at AC
- 13:43:25 [oedipus]
- SP: encouraged by meeting; interested in how the rest of the HTML WG responds to combining 2 groups
- 13:43:34 [oedipus]
- RM: should consider ramifications for XHTML
- 13:43:58 [oedipus]
- SP: LarryMM suggested i co-chair with Sam - not feasible
- 13:46:46 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM
- 13:46:56 [Steven]
- s/not feasible/not my idea of fun at the moment :-)/
- 13:46:57 [oedipus]
- RM: first 2 topics also being worked on by HTML5
- 13:47:07 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: The P content model
- 13:47:13 [oedipus]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
- 13:47:28 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout1/results
- 13:47:32 [oedipus]
- RM: HTML5 doing much of what we are doing with P - placing limitations on it
- 13:47:54 [Tina]
- Zakim, mute me
- 13:47:54 [Zakim]
- Tina should now be muted
- 13:47:57 [oedipus]
- SP: pasted pointer to breakout session described above into IRC
- 13:48:07 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM has joined #xhtml
- 13:48:19 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout2/results
- 13:48:23 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:48:23 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 13:48:38 [oedipus]
- SP: day 2 hasn't been posted yet - Sam Ruby making minutes
- 13:49:25 [Zakim]
- -ShaneM
- 13:49:48 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM
- 13:50:03 [oedipus]
- TH (from cited post): "I would argue that common concept of a paragraph is quite different
- 13:50:03 [oedipus]
- from that we currently use in the XHTML draft, and that we should
- 13:50:03 [oedipus]
- change it so that it reflect the way a paragraph is normally understood
- 13:50:03 [oedipus]
- by authors, namely the way it is currently defined in the XHTML 1.*
- 13:50:03 [oedipus]
- series languages."
- 13:50:47 [oedipus]
- TH (via post): "Note that I do not in any way claim there are no need to render, for instance, a paragraph on the side of, or even around, a table. What I am saying is that the structure of a paragraph does not admit itself to contain a table, a pre, or even a blockquote. A list is an edge case, but should we allow this I suggest the creation of an inline list element type."
- 13:51:06 [oedipus]
- RM: P content model as defined in present draft cause anyone a problem
- 13:51:38 [oedipus]
- SP: background: when originally designing text part of XHTML2, had a number of comments about the P content model not matching what perception of P is
- 13:52:12 [oedipus]
- SP: P defined in HTML4x too simple - could not embed images or table in paragraph; request was for things embedded in P be part of content model
- 13:52:50 [oedipus]
- SP: current content model of P is an attempt to do that - represent as much as possible the context of the paragraph, but also attempt to avoid P nested in P - P nested in TABLE cannot have child P
- 13:53:15 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
- 13:53:46 [oedipus]
- from current Editor's draft: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent the concept of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text. Note however that they may not contain directly nested p elements."
- 13:53:52 [Steven]
- (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
- 13:54:20 [oedipus]
- GJR notes he has proposal to deprecate TABLE for layout/style as BLOCKQUOTE for that use was deprecated in HTML4x
- 13:55:22 [oedipus]
- SP: always been opinion of this WG; don't explicitly say "deprecated", but agree that TABLEs are TABLEs and stylesheets should be used for layout
- 13:55:51 [oedipus]
- SP: proposed TABLE role="presentation" doesn't undo the damage, in fact almost encourages it
- 13:55:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: strong agreement - wrong approach
- 13:56:17 [oedipus]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
- 13:57:19 [oedipus]
- AC: no presentation - OBJECT should be used to embed video, audio, or presentation
- 13:57:42 [oedipus]
- AC: more like a user-modality for TABLE - agree with SP and GJR that layout tables should be banned
- 13:59:36 [oedipus]
- SP: understand TH's point of view - current model allows one to represent data in that way; there are also those who belive that a P can have an embeded table or list - content doesn't change because child of P - styling up to stylesheets; neither POV is disallowed - accomodates both- up to author to decide what to use
- 13:59:49 [oedipus]
- TH (from post) "But frankly I feel we have a problem. When humans communicate we do so by agreeing on the of words - and various other things outside the scope of this comment - so that when I say banana, you know its not an orange of which I speak."
- 14:00:12 [ShaneM]
- zakim, who is here
- 14:00:12 [Zakim]
- ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
- 14:00:16 [ShaneM]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:00:16 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven, Alessio, Tina (muted), ShaneM
- 14:00:18 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
- 14:00:25 [oedipus]
- tina?
- 14:00:29 [Tina]
- I am, but noise in office
- 14:00:44 [oedipus]
- tina, can you explain your proposed changes to P content model
- 14:00:57 [Tina]
- oedipus: certainly. We keep the one currently in use for HTML.
- 14:01:12 [oedipus]
- RM: would like more examples - if want P element with example and discussion of this issue - could do this way (compatible with past) or new way
- 14:01:37 [oedipus]
- SP: TH wants to exclude people who believe P is something different than what she is proposing
- 14:01:53 [oedipus]
- RM: irritating when have to change prose into a list
- 14:02:25 [oedipus]
- RM: if write normal english: ingredients are: a) , b), c), but cannot style as list because is prose list
- 14:02:33 [oedipus]
- RM: that is standard natural language usage
- 14:03:10 [Roland]
- ingredients are: a; b; c.
- 14:03:14 [oedipus]
- s/a) , b), c), / a) ; b) ; c);/
- 14:03:19 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:03:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 14:03:32 [oedipus]
- SP: including a list in P is perfectly valid
- 14:03:39 [oedipus]
- RM: examples would help
- 14:04:24 [oedipus]
- SP: opened a book "a case in point is blogs:" followed by list of 10 items; i content that in natural language usage that is a single paragraph, but HTML doesn't allow the list to be part of the P
- 14:04:46 [oedipus]
- GJR: agree - whether list is prose or formatted as list, belongs to the P and should be inside the P
- 14:04:53 [alessio]
- +1
- 14:04:56 [Tina]
- A suggestion, as quoted from me, above would be to allow lists - possibly inline lists - but exclude other use.
- 14:05:05 [oedipus]
- RM: alternative: leave as is, insert 2 examples, and note asking for feedback
- 14:05:46 [oedipus]
- ACTION - Gregory: draft example of P with prose list and structural list
- 14:05:46 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - -
- 14:05:59 [oedipus]
- ACTION: Gregory - draft example of P with prose list and structural list
- 14:05:59 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-65 - - draft example of P with prose list and structural list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02].
- 14:06:59 [oedipus]
- tina, could you provide examples of other uses of P?
- 14:07:16 [oedipus]
- or a list of what you would exclude from the P content model?
- 14:07:19 [Tina]
- No, I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, in particular if we are speaking merging the two WGs - HTML 5 design principles, if memory serve, insist on backward compatibility. Until it decided whether to merge or not the discussion is moot.
- 14:07:39 [oedipus]
- RM: only one causing difficulty with P content model is TABLE
- 14:07:47 [Tina]
- oedipus: I would *include* inline elements and possibly lists. Other block level elements are structurall illogical in a paragraph.
- 14:07:47 [oedipus]
- SP: only thing left over that wouldn't be included
- 14:08:07 [oedipus]
- RM: list, blockquote, pre and table
- 14:08:13 [Steven]
- (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
- 14:08:16 [oedipus]
- GJR: why blockquote and not blockcode?
- 14:08:30 [oedipus]
- SP: blockcode is part of content model
- 14:08:44 [oedipus]
- RM: what is normative? DTD or spec?
- 14:08:51 [oedipus]
- SM: spec always wins
- 14:09:03 [oedipus]
- RM: where spec doesn't include blockcode, bug in DTD
- 14:09:12 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
- 14:09:18 [oedipus]
- SM: no DTD for XHTML2
- 14:09:26 [oedipus]
- SP: not from DTD but modulariztion code
- 14:09:40 [oedipus]
- RM: still looking at what we pointed to originally
- 14:09:48 [oedipus]
- RM: list, blockquote, pre and TABLE
- 14:10:00 [oedipus]
- SP: english text is wrong - should also include blockcode
- 14:10:19 [oedipus]
- SP: module text at top is definitive version
- 14:10:45 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: fix XHTML2 prose to include blockcode
- 14:11:05 [oedipus]
- SM: shouldn't be in text
- 14:11:08 [oedipus]
- SP: plus 1 to that
- 14:11:20 [oedipus]
- GJR: following wiser heads like a lemming
- 14:11:29 [oedipus]
- SM: no other element describes content model in prose
- 14:11:47 [oedipus]
- SP: point of english text is to explain diff between XHTML2's P and earlier versions
- 14:11:55 [oedipus]
- RM: simple link-back to definition would help
- 14:12:09 [oedipus]
- SP: need to get that automated by shane
- 14:12:31 [oedipus]
- SP: spec written as small files - by element or attribute, which then get put together in standard way
- 14:12:46 [ShaneM]
- It should read: In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph.
- 14:13:02 [oedipus]
- GJR: plus 1 to shane's proposal
- 14:13:18 [oedipus]
- RM: talk about attributes, but not content model
- 14:13:39 [oedipus]
- SM: talk about content model elsewhere - may need to reinforce in this module because so large
- 14:14:03 [oedipus]
- SM: proposed text
- 14:14:31 [oedipus]
- SP: is example of P with embedded UL in it
- 14:15:00 [oedipus]
- RM: in contrast to what was done in previous versions P /P UL /UL rather than P UL /UL /P
- 14:15:13 [oedipus]
- SM: mistake for us to include references as to how things used to be
- 14:15:35 [oedipus]
- RM: alternative today - P can contain lists; put side-by-side explaining can do either of these
- 14:15:36 [oedipus]
- SM: ok
- 14:16:58 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph"
- 14:17:18 [oedipus]
- RM: not sure need "more consistent" clause
- 14:17:27 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model consistent with the concept of a paragraph"
- 14:18:02 [oedipus]
- RM: richer content model of paragraph should be sufficient
- 14:18:16 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model.
- 14:18:59 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model."
- 14:19:18 [oedipus]
- TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT HALF-PAST HOUR
- 14:19:21 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 14:19:22 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:19:22 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 14:19:26 [Zakim]
- -Gregory_Rosmaita
- 14:19:28 [Zakim]
- -Tina
- 14:19:29 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop log
- 14:19:29 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 14:19:31 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop
- 14:32:28 [Zakim]
- +Gregory_Rosmaita
- 14:32:59 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: Navigation
- 14:33:12 [oedipus]
- question: Do we really need four different types of lists in XHTML 2.0?
- 14:33:14 [alessio]
- zakim, code?
- 14:33:14 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio
- 14:33:21 [oedipus]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008May/0005.html
- 14:33:21 [oedipus]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0015.html
- 14:33:22 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 14:33:23 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 14:33:25 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 14:33:35 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:33:43 [alessio]
- zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
- 14:33:43 [Zakim]
- +Alessio; got it
- 14:33:50 [oedipus]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:33:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio
- 14:33:51 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
- 14:33:59 [Tina]
- oedipus: an exaggeration, surely.
- 14:34:31 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM
- 14:34:38 [Tina]
- My 2 whatsits: yes. We DO need a rich set of lists for various structures that needs to be marked up. I would propose we add an inline-list to the ones we have, plus, of course, a 'menu' or 'navigation'
- 14:35:01 [oedipus]
- current editor's draft definition of NL: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl
- 14:35:12 [oedipus]
- RM: do we need 4 kinds of list?
- 14:35:40 [oedipus]
- RM: discussed - fairly broad concept; item about elements versus attributes topic is related
- 14:35:45 [oedipus]
- RM: why did we create NL?
- 14:36:11 [oedipus]
- SP: in early days, 1 thing we did was observe web sites to identify things on web sites that represented concepts not represented in common HTML markup
- 14:36:32 [Zakim]
- -Markus
- 14:36:56 [oedipus]
- SP: one thing that we concluded was types of list purely for navigational purposes - semantic advantage (expecially from A11y POV) advantageous; developed before developed Role and RDFa
- 14:37:14 [oedipus]
- SP: new markup allows NL without new type of element]
- 14:37:27 [oedipus]
- SP: instead of NL, UL role="navigation"
- 14:37:54 [oedipus]
- RM: device independence group worked on this; large areas of page - are areas devoted to navigation
- 14:38:05 [Tina]
- OL, not UL. This is still a rather dramatic conceptual change. Why would we want to do that - and, on the flipside, not then simply have ONE list?
- 14:38:06 [oedipus]
- RM: not catered for inside markup; navigation is important property
- 14:38:08 [Zakim]
- +Markus
- 14:38:20 [mgylling]
- mgylling has joined #xhtml
- 14:38:23 [oedipus]
- RM: difference from my POV is navigation is more than list
- 14:38:50 [oedipus]
- RM: HTML5 has NAVIGATION element - useful notion: can be more to navigation than items; headings (primary navigation, secondary navigation)
- 14:39:05 [oedipus]
- RM: would like to reframe converstation from NL to NAVIGATION section
- 14:39:14 [Roland]
- HTML5 : http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-nav-element
- 14:39:20 [ShaneM]
- I agree with Steven that @role can be used to indicate that a section is related to navigation.
- 14:40:06 [oedipus]
- SP: definitely case that had proposal on table for NL but didn't find consensus in WG; made general decision to use elements for structuring and attributes for semantics; helps us fulfil many requests; if request is for semantics, answer should be use RDFa or Role and leave elements for marking up strcuture
- 14:40:13 [oedipus]
- RM: felt navigation was structure
- 14:40:31 [ShaneM]
- <section role="navigation">...</section>
- 14:40:34 [oedipus]
- SP: use SECTION role="navigation" is equivalent
- 14:40:53 [oedipus]
- SP: could also use UL role="navigation" or OL role="navigation"
- 14:41:05 [oedipus]
- SP: can be done by attaching role to SECTION or directly to list
- 14:41:11 [Tina]
- Have we agreed to leave *all* semantics to RDFa and @role?
- 14:41:29 [ShaneM]
- Tina: No, I don't think so.
- 14:41:36 [oedipus]
- RM: OL role="navigation" equals SECTION role="navigation"
- 14:42:14 [oedipus]
- SP: MarkB would say NL wrong because makes list with specific semantic meaning; sturcture is ordered list and structure is navigation; if want section on navigation, use SECTION role="navigation"
- 14:42:22 [Tina]
- ShaneM: that begs the question - which semantics do we leave to elements? We already have three different list types. If they are there for structure only, then why don't we simplify and make one?
- 14:42:46 [oedipus]
- SM: context - state of art when introduced NL in visual user agent wasn't possible without heavy scripting; but today, that can be achieved with CSS
- 14:42:51 [oedipus]
- SM: throw out NL
- 14:42:54 [oedipus]
- SP: can live with that
- 14:42:57 [oedipus]
- AC: me too
- 14:42:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: me too
- 14:43:03 [mgylling]
- +1
- 14:43:05 [ShaneM]
- Note that @role already has a predefined value for "navigation"
- 14:43:18 [oedipus]
- RM: would prefer a NAV element rather than just list
- 14:43:56 [oedipus]
- RM: no element whose specific role is navigation, can be satisfied by assigning role to other structural elements
- 14:44:37 [oedipus]
- SP: kept a lot of elements that aren't strictly necessary because of use-and-practice with list
- 14:44:46 [oedipus]
- SM: extended content model for DL by adding DI
- 14:44:51 [oedipus]
- SM: very positive move
- 14:45:14 [oedipus]
- SM: can't decide if TH making serious point or playing devil's advocate
- 14:45:16 [Steven]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:45:16 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus
- 14:45:18 [oedipus]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:45:19 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus
- 14:45:21 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
- 14:46:04 [oedipus]
- SM: appreciate that there is a significant presentational and semantic difference between OL, UL, and DL - DT and DD need to be grouped in order to make sense
- 14:46:19 [oedipus]
- SM: don't think a lot of value removing things people are already familiar with
- 14:46:31 [Tina]
- It is a serious point in so far as we need to be consistent in where we leave semantic interpretation on element types, and where we move it to roles. Right now the draft is a little bit of this and a little bit of both. If we say that "The markup is for structure" as a general rule then we need only one list structure and extended @role values.
- 14:46:46 [oedipus]
- SM: does beg the question: "does it make sense for us to do things in language that we know will not work right in existing UAs?"
- 14:47:00 [oedipus]
- RM: not on agenda, but could discuss when return to HTML5 discussion
- 14:47:16 [oedipus]
- RM: making incremental changes that make it hard to deploy - is it worth return on investment
- 14:47:29 [oedipus]
- RM: do we need to introduce DI type of thing to discuss later
- 14:47:35 [oedipus]
- RM: concrete example?
- 14:47:35 [Tina]
- Since we are already changing or removing things people are already familiar with. Consistency is key.
- 14:47:45 [oedipus]
- SP: resolution to remove NL?
- 14:48:02 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module
- 14:48:08 [oedipus]
- RM: propose we remove NL
- 14:48:12 [Steven]
- and replace with use of @role="navigation"
- 14:48:20 [oedipus]
- GJR: plus 1 with SP's caveat
- 14:48:26 [Steven]
- as necessary
- 14:48:53 [oedipus]
- SM: we created "navigation" role
- 14:49:15 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
- 14:49:29 [oedipus]
- SP: current model for DL wouldn't break existing user agents
- 14:49:38 [Steven]
- I think
- 14:49:44 [oedipus]
- GJR: agree with SP - will make DL stronger and more useful
- 14:49:44 [Steven]
- +1
- 14:49:47 [Steven]
- on resolution
- 14:49:53 [mgylling]
- +1
- 14:49:54 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
- 14:49:59 [oedipus]
- plus 1
- 14:50:05 [ShaneM]
- Tina: I think there is a (new) trend toward NOT removing things that people are familiar with.http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
- 14:50:09 [ShaneM]
- oops... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
- 14:50:51 [oedipus]
- definition of navigation from vocab document: "navigation indicates a collection of items suitable for navigating the document or related documents."
- 14:51:35 [oedipus]
- RM: seem to have gotten a bit mixed up - talking about multiple things
- 14:51:40 [oedipus]
- RM: resolution to remove NL
- 14:51:44 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
- 14:51:52 [ShaneM]
- +1
- 14:51:52 [Roland]
- +1
- 14:51:54 [Steven]
- +1
- 14:51:55 [alessio]
- +1
- 14:52:00 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation"
- 14:52:04 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:52:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 14:52:16 [ShaneM]
- ACTION: Shane to remove the nl element from XHTML 2
- 14:52:16 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-66 - Remove the nl element from XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02].
- 14:52:46 [oedipus]
- SM: one related item is DL
- 14:52:53 [oedipus]
- SP: changes won't change deployment
- 14:52:58 [oedipus]
- SM: DI would be ignored?
- 14:53:04 [oedipus]
- MG: DI is optional
- 14:53:16 [oedipus]
- GJR: provides nice low-grade binding for DDs
- 14:53:35 [oedipus]
- RM: DI introduced to solve what particular problem?
- 14:53:55 [oedipus]
- "Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the dt element. The description is given with a dd element. The term and its definition can be grouped within a di element to help clarify the relationship between a term and its definition(s)."
- 14:54:53 [mgylling]
- ... di solves a problem that could also be solved with @for...
- 14:55:30 [oedipus]
- SP: if 2 things are related, DI can express that; presentation: hard to put border around DT and DD; from semantic POV want them to be joined at head and not hip
- 14:55:47 [oedipus]
- markus, do you have more to say on "for"
- 14:56:09 [oedipus]
- RM: like paragraph - if don't want to use DI, don't have to
- 14:56:13 [mgylling]
- no - I am all for DI.
- 14:56:18 [oedipus]
- good
- 14:56:32 [oedipus]
- RM: any other potential pitfalls with lists?
- 14:57:05 [oedipus]
- SM: added in list module the caption element and hooked into content model for all lists
- 14:57:07 [ShaneM]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#s_listmodule
- 14:57:08 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html
- 14:57:22 [oedipus]
- RM: lists allow caption
- 14:57:33 [oedipus]
- GJR: might want to consider LEGEND
- 14:59:12 [Steven]
- We need to consider the purposes of LEGEND LABEL and CAPTION
- 14:59:21 [oedipus]
- http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples
- 14:59:22 [Steven]
- and work out whether to merge
- 14:59:42 [alessio]
- yes, it's a very good point
- 15:00:09 [oedipus]
- SM: haven't addressed use of XForms inline content with other forms of inline content
- 15:00:23 [oedipus]
- Use of FIGURE, LEGEND, and @alt
- 15:00:23 [oedipus]
- Three Stages of A Butterfly's Life Example
- 15:00:23 [oedipus]
- Each of the images in the 3 stages of a butterfly's life REQUIRE alt text and/or labelledby to provide them with unique and appropriate short descriptions, just as each form control in a FIELDSET has its own LABEL defined for it, with the value of the LEGEND element providing a CAPTION-like function for the FIELDSET, so too does LEGEND provide a means of declaratively marking explicit bindings of groups of related objects, as in:
- 15:00:30 [oedipus]
- <FIGURE aria-labelledby="l1">
- 15:00:30 [oedipus]
- <LEGEND id="l1">The Three Stages of a Butterfly's Life Cycle</LEGEND>
- 15:00:30 [oedipus]
- <IMG alt="Stage 1: The larval stage." src="butterfly1.svg"
- 15:00:30 [oedipus]
- longdesc="butterfly1.html">
- 15:00:30 [oedipus]
- <IMG alt="Stage 2: The pupal stage." src="butterfly2.svg"
- 15:00:33 [oedipus]
- longdesc="butterfly2.html">
- 15:00:35 [oedipus]
- <IMG alt="Stage 3: The adult stage." src="butterfly3.svg"
- 15:00:36 [oedipus]
- longdesc="butterfly3.html">
- 15:00:39 [oedipus]
- </FIGURE>
- 15:00:41 [oedipus]
- the LEGEND applies to all three images as a collection of related objects, available, for example, in a screen reader situation, either through a verbosity setting or via an extended query, such as MagicKey+TAB reads the alt text of the individual graphic which has focus, MagicKey+TAB pressed twice rapidly (or with a moderator key) provides the user with the LEGEND which describes, tersely, the group to which the individual image belongs, so that the user can b
- 15:00:47 [oedipus]
- a) each individual image's short alternative text;
- 15:00:48 [oedipus]
- b) the grouping to which the image belongs (if it is one of a series presented in a FIGURE) or any other modality-specific content contained in HTML5's media-specific elements, including AUDIO, VIDEO, OBJECT and CANVAS;
- 15:01:03 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: Supplemental Document - Best Practices Guide?
- 15:01:51 [oedipus]
- RM: need to orient readers and contextualize use of XHTML2 to alter content and improve usability of content - how to pull pieces of m12n together
- 15:02:39 [oedipus]
- GJR: i will send "thoughts on LEGEND" used in PF deliberations over terse descriptors in HTML5 to XHTML2 list
- 15:02:57 [oedipus]
- RM: like examples - pick up as a template and build upon it
- 15:03:33 [oedipus]
- RM: christina once worked on something similar, but we haven't undertaken anything as a WG
- 15:03:38 [oedipus]
- SP: no, we haven't really
- 15:03:58 [oedipus]
- RM: continuing developing document, steven?
- 15:04:01 [Roland]
- Roland has left #xhtml
- 15:04:14 [oedipus]
- SP: received a lot of feedback at AC meeting on how should be structured
- 15:04:21 [Roland]
- Roland has joined #xhtml
- 15:04:26 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:04:26 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 15:04:31 [Steven]
- s/feedback/input/
- 15:05:06 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:05:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 15:05:30 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: how to incorporate ITS
- 15:05:36 [oedipus]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0023.html
- 15:05:36 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28
- 15:05:52 [oedipus]
- SM: does anyone understand the ITS question?
- 15:06:34 [oedipus]
- SP: background: googletranslate - when automatically translates page, ITS helps markup page to assist process; when i say "window" don't translate because is technical term;
- 15:07:01 [oedipus]
- SP: semantic markup with specific domain: meaning of words with respect to other languages
- 15:07:17 [mgylling]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/its/
- 15:07:36 [oedipus]
- RM: who is driving this request
- 15:07:41 [oedipus]
- SP: i18n
- 15:08:15 [Steven]
- Then from there, run batch file <cmd
- 15:08:15 [Steven]
- its:translate="no">Build.bat</cmd>.</p>
- 15:08:29 [oedipus]
- MG: investigated ITS - 3 options to introduce rules into document - inline (similar to @style), xlink to external document, or put info in HEAD
- 15:08:44 [oedipus]
- MG: not just question of attribute, but should we support XLINK in HEAD, etc.
- 15:08:54 [oedipus]
- RM: can link to ITS definition, full stop
- 15:08:57 [oedipus]
- SM: not an option
- 15:09:05 [oedipus]
- SP: wouldn't let us do that?
- 15:09:22 [oedipus]
- SM: our architecture doesn't allow for arbitrary content models; need to specificy what goes where
- 15:09:56 [oedipus]
- SM: ITS was on rec track; asked us to do LC review; we said fine, but forgot M12n; listened to us and produced modules and went to REC
- 15:10:30 [oedipus]
- SM: should we incorporate into XHTML 1.2 - no, but i was given action item to put into XHTML2 - too many options, need to pick one
- 15:10:43 [oedipus]
- SM: should ask ITS WG how to use ITS in our module
- 15:10:48 [oedipus]
- RM: ITS WG closed
- 15:10:56 [oedipus]
- RM: ITS interest group still active
- 15:11:10 [oedipus]
- RM: should ping them to ask "how do you think this applies to us?"
- 15:11:24 [oedipus]
- SP: created something similar to CSS - create rules in HEAD or inline
- 15:11:50 [oedipus]
- SP: a lot of their stuff we have anyway - don't need @dir because took from us and put in their namespace
- 15:12:06 [oedipus]
- GJR: notes that this is a good trend - similar to timesheets
- 15:12:34 [oedipus]
- SP: translate rules - include their rules into HEAD and then in BODY only thing that is left is translate equals yes or no
- 15:12:53 [oedipus]
- MG: correct; have schema modules for ITS we can import
- 15:13:02 [oedipus]
- MG: external sheets via XLink
- 15:13:15 [oedipus]
- MG: should ask if can use LINK element instead
- 15:13:19 [oedipus]
- RM: sounds reasonable
- 15:13:52 [oedipus]
- SP: invite someone from ITS to join us on a call to discuss
- 15:14:06 [oedipus]
- GJR: sounds reasonable
- 15:14:17 [oedipus]
- SP: should be able to find someone courtesy of RichardI
- 15:14:47 [oedipus]
- ACTION: Steven - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further
- 15:14:47 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-67 - - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02].
- 15:15:00 [oedipus]
- RM: is anyone recognizing ITS?
- 15:15:12 [oedipus]
- SP: if no one is producing content with it answer is no
- 15:15:26 [oedipus]
- RM: are we the best people to bootstrap this?
- 15:15:48 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/its2xquery
- 15:16:00 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport
- 15:16:10 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/
- 15:17:28 [oedipus]
- SM: should be bending over backwards to reuse W3C technologies and standards
- 15:17:52 [oedipus]
- GJR: first principle of WCAG - if pertinent technology exists (such as MathML) use it
- 15:18:01 [Steven]
- r12a suggests 10 01yves savourel 01chair of the former WG
- 15:18:02 [oedipus]
- RM: doesn't sound too onerous
- 15:18:07 [Steven]
- and cc to Felix of W3C
- 15:18:47 [oedipus]
- RM: don't need its prefix, just "yes" or "no"
- 15:18:55 [oedipus]
- SM: does spec allow chameleon?
- 15:19:38 [oedipus]
- MG: published note on how to incorporate ITS into XHTML family
- 15:19:57 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype1
- 15:20:10 [Steven]
- ysavourel at translate.com
- 15:20:14 [oedipus]
- processing expections for ITS: http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype2
- 15:20:25 [Roland]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10
- 15:20:46 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3331#c8
- 15:20:55 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod
- 15:21:12 [oedipus]
- "Three such markup schemes are described in section ITS Applied to Existing Formats of the latest public Working Draft of Best Practices for XML Internationalization: ITS and TEI, ITS and XHTML 1.0, and ITS and XML Spec. In response to comment Please use XHTML Modularization for defining ITS DTD and Schema, the Working Group has defined an ITS module for XHTML, using the XHTML modularization framework."
- 15:21:27 [oedipus]
- MG: roland's pointer the one i was thinking about
- 15:21:35 [oedipus]
- SM: last one GJR put in is what i was looking at
- 15:21:53 [oedipus]
- RM: XHTML M12n 1.1 - http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10
- 15:22:45 [oedipus]
- SM: our treatment of schema allows us to bring in elements and attributes from other namespaces; don't have to include in our namespace if already exists elsewhere and is in use
- 15:23:40 [oedipus]
- "1) ITS and TEI: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the TEI metadata section (the teiHeader). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements. ITS span is added to the content pattern model.common (most inline contexts)."
- 15:23:40 [oedipus]
- "2) ITS and XHTML 1.0: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XHTML head element (the group HeadOpts.mix has been redefined accordingly). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (the group Common.attrib has been redefined accordingly). Ruby is not used since the ruby specification already defines an XHTML module for ruby."
- 15:23:40 [oedipus]
- "3) ITS and XML Spec: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XML Spec header element (rules has been added as the last element to the XML Spec entity header.mdl). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (they have been added to the entity common.att). ITS ruby is allowed to appear as an inline element (it has been added to the entity p.pcd.mix)."
- 15:26:18 [oedipus]
- SP: reading from spec: "one way to associate document with external ITS rules is to use optional XLINK"
- 15:27:16 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28
- 15:27:41 [Steven]
- so it sounds optional
- 15:27:49 [oedipus]
- SM: questions we have: don't support XLink, so can we use LINK? leave in ITS space and use their suggested model?
- 15:28:23 [oedipus]
- SM: inclination is to invite someone to discuss XLink - for content model, take what proposed for XHTML 1.1 leave in ITS namespace and do what they said
- 15:28:57 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n
- 15:29:06 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n
- 15:29:10 [oedipus]
- SP: already invited them
- 15:29:12 [oedipus]
- SM: thank you
- 15:29:21 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:29:21 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 15:29:38 [oedipus]
- RM: anything else on ITS?
- 15:30:18 [oedipus]
- TOPIC: Clearing Out Old Action Items
- 15:30:24 [oedipus]
- RM: quantity values question
- 15:31:24 [oedipus]
- SP: when we have href type and src type which allows one to define what values are suitable; in HTML4 have type on HREF - comment that says what is on other end - just a claim, not firm basis for content negotiation
- 15:31:40 [oedipus]
- SP: in XHTML2 have list of types used for content negotiation
- 15:32:27 [oedipus]
- SP: comment that don't take into account QValues
- 15:32:53 [oedipus]
- SP: been boning up on QValues
- 15:33:28 [oedipus]
- RM: should add to traker
- 15:33:36 [oedipus]
- s/traker/tracker
- 15:34:34 [oedipus]
- SP: if say "here is an image" may be in 10 diff formats, but want SVG or PNG to be first choice, if user agent can't handle SVG or PNG, have to provide something UA says can accept
- 15:35:14 [oedipus]
- SP: answer may be no qvalues in source
- 15:35:19 [oedipus]
- SM: think that is the answer
- 15:35:38 [oedipus]
- SM: QValue responsibility of UA; intersection of what UA wants and what author can offer
- 15:35:55 [oedipus]
- s/what UA wants/what UA can handle/
- 15:36:10 [oedipus]
- SP: order of things in specification important - take first or highest q?
- 15:36:33 [oedipus]
- SP: when UA specifies what is willing to accept does it mean willing to accept them equally
- 15:36:38 [oedipus]
- SM: have to check HTTP spec
- 15:36:48 [oedipus]
- SM: order is probably significant - will check
- 15:38:10 [Steven]
- ACTION: Steven to work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc.
- 15:38:10 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-68 - Work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02].
- 15:38:52 [oedipus]
- http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
- 15:39:26 [oedipus]
- RM: work through 16 open issues on shane's tracker?
- 15:39:28 [oedipus]
- SM: not now
- 15:39:31 [oedipus]
- RM: when?
- 15:39:46 [oedipus]
- SM: not sure what to do with 5 year old comments
- 15:39:54 [oedipus]
- RM: are any of the issues still relevant?
- 15:40:22 [oedipus]
- RM: how to deal with them?
- 15:40:35 [oedipus]
- GJR: port them to W3C tracker and close those that are moot?
- 15:41:11 [oedipus]
- "QNames are the way that the working group, and indeed the W3C, handle having
- 15:41:11 [oedipus]
- data that comes from differing sources. The working group is not willing to
- 15:41:11 [oedipus]
- change course at this time
- 15:41:32 [oedipus]
- SM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 needs to be split up
- 15:41:37 [oedipus]
- SP: some just comments
- 15:41:46 [oedipus]
- SP: several of these things don't need to do
- 15:41:58 [oedipus]
- SP: can answer, but no action necessary
- 15:42:07 [oedipus]
- SP: real issues: keep BR (which i think we do)
- 15:42:15 [oedipus]
- SM: were instructed by TBL to keep BR
- 15:42:32 [oedipus]
- SP: a lot of editorial comments
- 15:43:03 [Tina]
- What is the structural purpose of BR? That should be the only reason why we keep it or toss it.
- 15:43:42 [Tina]
- Yes. What's our use case for keeping it?
- 15:43:49 [oedipus]
- SP: could say that WG received this remark and is not required to answer; get input from more recent suggestions
- 15:44:35 [Zakim]
- -Gregory_Rosmaita
- 15:44:45 [Tina]
- Then I suggest we get rid of BR as more-or-less physical markup.
- 15:44:57 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 15:45:52 [Zakim]
- -Alessio
- 15:46:16 [Zakim]
- +Gregory_Rosmaita
- 15:46:45 [oedipus]
- tina, do you want to work on a proposal to eliminate BR?
- 15:47:06 [oedipus]
- deprecate in favor of use of L ... /L
- 15:48:18 [oedipus]
- anne van k on L: "Didn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace by default? What do we need the L
- 15:48:18 [oedipus]
- element for here? And as mentioned before, BR is still needed. I also
- 15:48:18 [oedipus]
- think that a better use case for L should be presented, this one is bad."
- 15:48:28 [Tina]
- oedipus, I don't have the time to write up anything formal, I'm afraid.
- 15:48:44 [oedipus]
- me neither, but i might as well take a whack at it right now
- 15:50:44 [oedipus]
- GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line.
- 15:50:51 [oedipus]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:50:52 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roland, ShaneM, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita
- 15:50:55 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Roland, mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
- 15:51:48 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 15:51:48 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 15:51:50 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 15:51:56 [oedipus]
- RM: keep differences from status-quo to a minimum - makes easier to deploy in existing browsers
- 15:52:27 [Tina]
- oedipus: I agree with that.
- 15:52:36 [oedipus]
- SM: "1.1.2. Backwards compatibility
- 15:52:50 [oedipus]
- SM: will update as appropriate
- 15:53:00 [oedipus]
- SM: 1.1.2. Backwards compatibility
- 15:53:06 [Tina]
- We are already deviating from that, however, by changing content models. Removing presentational markup is surely a good idea.
- 15:53:14 [oedipus]
- SM: wants BR back; instructed to do it, but haven't done it
- 15:53:16 [oedipus]
- q+
- 15:53:22 [oedipus]
- GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line.
- 15:53:53 [oedipus]
- SM: agree
- 15:54:31 [oedipus]
- RM: back to pragmatic - authors need to understand what to do - how much benefit from being purists, how much from being practical - can we live with either or
- 15:54:48 [oedipus]
- SP: can live with keeping it, but with a note stating that L is preferred method
- 15:54:59 [oedipus]
- ack oe
- 15:55:03 [ShaneM]
- ACTION: Shane to put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines.
- 15:55:03 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-69 - Put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02].
- 15:55:20 [oedipus]
- proposed Resolution: restore BR
- 15:55:25 [oedipus]
- SP: objections?
- 15:55:27 [oedipus]
- GJR: object
- 15:55:42 [oedipus]
- SP: if objections, don't have resolution
- 15:56:48 [oedipus]
- RM: GJR, do you believe we should not do this?
- 15:57:23 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 15:57:29 [alessio]
- zakim, ??P3 is Alessio
- 15:57:29 [Zakim]
- +Alessio; got it
- 15:57:32 [oedipus]
- GJR: willing to compromise on BR if we add note on use of L
- 15:58:00 [Tina]
- I see no good reason to put a presentational element back in. This isn't as much about pragmatic solutions - CSS can do the visual if need be.
- 15:58:08 [oedipus]
- GJR: is there any override mechanism for BR?
- 15:58:23 [oedipus]
- SP: compromise: include BR but mark as deprecated
- 15:58:25 [oedipus]
- GJR: yes
- 15:58:40 [ShaneM]
- deprecated? in a legacy br module?
- 15:58:52 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L
- 15:59:02 [Steven]
- +1
- 15:59:07 [ShaneM]
- +1
- 15:59:07 [oedipus]
- GJR: plus 1
- 15:59:16 [oedipus]
- AC: yes
- 15:59:18 [Roland]
- +1
- 15:59:19 [mgylling]
- +1
- 15:59:21 [alessio]
- +1
- 15:59:27 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L
- 15:59:33 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:59:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 16:01:37 [oedipus]
- RM: next one is ADDRESS element
- 16:02:01 [oedipus]
- SM: request is make content model for address richer, or introduce a BLOCKADDRESS element
- 16:02:12 [oedipus]
- GJR: isn't this covered by role="contentinfo"
- 16:02:39 [oedipus]
- vocab doc: "
- 16:02:39 [oedipus]
- contentinfo has meta information about the content on the page or the page as a whole.
- 16:03:01 [Steven]
- By the way, there is a new rrsagent in the works: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe
- 16:03:13 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_address
- 16:03:31 [oedipus]
- SM: not inclined to change from block to inline or to add blockaddress
- 16:03:41 [oedipus]
- SP: non-structural element that only adds semantic information
- 16:03:56 [oedipus]
- SP: semantic info is terribly vague - can't extract much sensible out of ADDRESS
- 16:04:15 [oedipus]
- RM: HTML5's ADDRESS is not block
- 16:04:55 [oedipus]
- SM: problem is content model restricted;
- 16:05:09 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-address-element
- 16:05:38 [oedipus]
- 'The address element represents the contact information for the section it applies to. If it applies to the body element, then it instead applies to the document as a whole"
- 16:06:07 [Tina]
- That does appear fairly clear, if not detailed. What is the use case for changing it?
- 16:06:15 [oedipus]
- "The address element must not contain information other than contact information."
- 16:06:27 [ShaneM]
- Tina: the request is to make the content model richer
- 16:07:02 [oedipus]
- GJR: HTML5 Address is a child of FOOTER
- 16:07:07 [Tina]
- If so, do we need to change the element or simply add other elements which go inside it that allows an author to define up the various pieces?
- 16:07:09 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-footer-element
- 16:07:51 [oedipus]
- GJR: address is part of FOOTER, but restricted to contact info onlly
- 16:07:58 [oedipus]
- s/onlly/only
- 16:08:05 [oedipus]
- GJR: in HTML5
- 16:08:29 [ShaneM]
- Tina: I think we just could make the content model richer.
- 16:09:07 [oedipus]
- Content model for FOOTER in HTML5: "Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, and no footer element descendants."
- 16:09:45 [oedipus]
- SM: either add blockaddress or fix rich content model
- 16:09:56 [oedipus]
- SM: objections to making content model of ADDRESS richer?
- 16:10:01 [oedipus]
- SM: need to define "richer"
- 16:10:11 [oedipus]
- SM: same as SECTION
- 16:10:13 [Tina]
- ShaneM: not a bad idea. We can keep ADDRESS, then add various elements for marking up specific sections of contact info. Or rely on namespaces for people to use elements from other XMLs.
- 16:10:21 [oedipus]
- RM: why not say SECTION role="address"
- 16:10:54 [oedipus]
- SP: on other hand, could just say ADDRESS is shorthand for SECTION role="address"
- 16:11:08 [oedipus]
- RM: no difference in semantics for ADDRESS and SECTION role="address"
- 16:11:17 [oedipus]
- RM: need to define semantics of ADDRESS
- 16:11:47 [oedipus]
- SM: DIV role="p" is not a substitute for using P - if element has semantics, use the element
- 16:12:27 [oedipus]
- SM: have ADDRESS element - could say "if need area of document with richer content model and address information, use SECTION role="address"
- 16:12:35 [oedipus]
- RM: no existing "address" role
- 16:13:06 [oedipus]
- GJR: when we did ARIA/HTML5 analysis decided that "contentinfo" more broad than HTML's ADDRESS
- 16:13:27 [oedipus]
- SM: defer to dublin core or VCard?
- 16:13:45 [Tina]
- Suggestion: keep <address> as is, and encourage authors to use other markup languages for the specifics.
- 16:13:52 [oedipus]
- SM: vocab collection for role is missing fundamental concepts - is that because we are deferring to DC
- 16:13:59 [oedipus]
- SP: do in RDFa instead of role
- 16:14:20 [oedipus]
- RM: on typical page, navigation area, content area, contact area very common - address related to contact info
- 16:14:29 [oedipus]
- SM: dublin core values we can use for that
- 16:14:42 [oedipus]
- RM: broke up page into appendix, content, copyright, etc.
- 16:15:02 [oedipus]
- SM: can add a role
- 16:15:35 [alessio]
- agree
- 16:15:38 [oedipus]
- RM: can state "not changed from HTML4; if want richer mechanism, create it according to the markup family's extension rules
- 16:15:49 [oedipus]
- SM: probably way to group all of this together
- 16:16:03 [oedipus]
- SM: should we introduce additional role values
- 16:16:05 [oedipus]
- GJR: yes
- 16:16:08 [oedipus]
- SP: good point
- 16:16:31 [oedipus]
- GJR: would like to differentiate between explanatory note and referential note
- 16:16:58 [oedipus]
- SM: in existing vocabulary
- 16:17:32 [oedipus]
- from vocab document: note: "note indicates the content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main content of the resource."
- 16:18:06 [oedipus]
- GJR: there are 2 types of note: referential (citation, endnote) and annotative (what the vocab doc says)
- 16:18:27 [oedipus]
- SP: resolution?
- 16:18:51 [ShaneM]
- Tina: I think that is where we are ending up. Thanks!
- 16:18:52 [oedipus]
- RM: leave address as-is, if want to create richer structures for that information, use SECTION
- 16:19:40 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLUTION: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism (e.g. use SECTION)
- 16:20:04 [alessio]
- +1
- 16:20:07 [ShaneM]
- +1
- 16:20:09 [oedipus]
- proposed RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION
- 16:20:13 [Roland]
- +1
- 16:20:23 [oedipus]
- RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION
- 16:20:36 [oedipus]
- SM: need to discuss additional role values - add to next f2f agenda
- 16:20:41 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:20:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 16:21:16 [oedipus]
- SM: heading element - "confusing" - example of use of both
- 16:21:27 [oedipus]
- SM: think addressed this by moving things around in document
- 16:21:45 [oedipus]
- SM: anne objects to P element content model that allows some block-level elements to be mixed in
- 16:22:12 [oedipus]
- GJR: reminder earlier RESOLUTION: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model."
- 16:22:21 [oedipus]
- SM: PRE element comments
- 16:22:32 [oedipus]
- SM: changed example
- 16:22:46 [oedipus]
- GJR: PRE is a problem for accessibility
- 16:23:01 [oedipus]
- RM: editorial comment
- 16:23:19 [oedipus]
- SM: separator element -
- 16:23:44 [oedipus]
- SP: TBL has affection for HR
- 16:23:57 [Steven]
- unexplained affection
- 16:24:04 [Tina]
- Do we need HR when we have SECTION?
- 16:24:08 [oedipus]
- "There isn't mentioned a single use case. Only some presentational issues
- 16:24:08 [oedipus]
- that should be kept in CSS as mentioned in 1.1.1. Right?"
- 16:24:17 [Steven]
- no TIna, we don't
- 16:24:31 [oedipus]
- SM: don't understand point of comment
- 16:24:47 [oedipus]
- GJR: hell, lets deprecate all BLOCK* elements in favor of CSS
- 16:25:16 [oedipus]
- SM: lets disucss separator
- 16:25:43 [oedipus]
- SM: TBL has affection for HR - does that mean need HR deprecated in favor of SEPARATOR?
- 16:25:59 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator
- 16:26:35 [oedipus]
- SP: from fundamental point of view, solves problems with HR - found use cases for separator, could do with SECTION, but SEPARATOR is useful markup
- 16:27:13 [oedipus]
- SP: problem with HR - presentational; rather than introduce VR, use SEPARATOR
- 16:27:40 [oedipus]
- RM: should say HR has no semantic meaning but is shorthand for SEPARATOR
- 16:28:12 [oedipus]
- proposal: rename SEPARATOR to HR and add note: "there is nothing horizontal or presentational implied by HR"
- 16:28:22 [oedipus]
- SP: first element not related to concept
- 16:28:49 [oedipus]
- RM: should be there for legacy, but if starting afresh use SEPARATOR
- 16:29:22 [oedipus]
- SP: reason for caring is that saying that won't change ingrained understanding of HR no matter what we say
- 16:29:41 [oedipus]
- RM: how do languages that want VR handle HR?
- 16:29:43 [Zakim]
- -Markus
- 16:30:15 [oedipus]
- SP: maybe HR only works horizontally and are using borders on DIV for visually approximations of vertical rules
- 16:30:27 [oedipus]
- SP: i18n complaint still valid
- 16:30:28 [Zakim]
- +Markus
- 16:30:44 [oedipus]
- RM: only if say HR has semantic meaning other than as shorthand for SEPARATOR
- 16:31:29 [oedipus]
- SP: have to provide standard stylesheet for XHTML2 - have to provide default style for SECTION, H, etc.
- 16:31:50 [oedipus]
- SM: don't think SEPARATOR an HR
- 16:32:02 [oedipus]
- SM: HR is a styled line running horizontally across page
- 16:32:26 [oedipus]
- SM: separator is semantic indication that one part of document different from another - can be reflected in style rules or not
- 16:33:06 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-hr-element
- 16:33:22 [oedipus]
- HTML5: "The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book."
- 16:33:48 [oedipus]
- RM: suggest we move on for now
- 16:34:26 [oedipus]
- "Contexts in which this element may be used: Where flow content is expected."
- 16:35:06 [oedipus]
- SM: next comment: ABBR should use something other than @title - we do, so that is moot
- 16:35:12 [oedipus]
- SM: next comment: CITE element
- 16:35:28 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite
- 16:36:09 [oedipus]
- "Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu
- 16:37:20 [oedipus]
- <section role="main">
- 16:37:20 [oedipus]
- <q for="fdr3i"
- 16:37:20 [oedipus]
- href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1"
- 16:37:20 [oedipus]
- cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941"
- 16:37:20 [oedipus]
- >In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong
- 16:37:21 [oedipus]
- purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy.
- 16:37:23 [oedipus]
- </q>
- 16:37:24 [oedipus]
- <!-- ... -->
- 16:37:26 [oedipus]
- </section>
- 16:37:28 [oedipus]
- <section role="secondary">
- 16:37:31 [oedipus]
- <h id="biblio">Bibliography</h>
- 16:37:33 [oedipus]
- <ol>
- 16:37:34 [oedipus]
- <li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i"
- 16:37:36 [oedipus]
- src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html"
- 16:37:39 [oedipus]
- >Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered
- 16:37:40 [oedipus]
- before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official
- 16:37:42 [oedipus]
- White House transcript)</li>
- 16:37:44 [oedipus]
- </ol>
- 16:37:46 [oedipus]
- <!-- ... -->
- 16:37:49 [oedipus]
- </section>
- 16:37:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source.
- 16:38:28 [Steven]
- I think this is another element rendered unecessary by rdfa
- 16:38:34 [oedipus]
- GJR: should be able to point to CITE element with for/id relationship
- 16:38:37 [Steven]
- s/une/unne/
- 16:38:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: if @cite is retained should be for human processing
- 16:39:18 [oedipus]
- SM: disagree
- 16:39:42 [oedipus]
- SM: src is used to identify external source that is only read-in; href is used for hyperlink; cite is something else
- 16:40:04 [oedipus]
- SM: in current XHTML2 @cite is an @href that is actionable through an alternate method
- 16:40:19 [oedipus]
- GJR: a quote is embedded content
- 16:40:41 [Steven]
- I think it is actually equivalent to rel="cite" href="...."
- 16:40:52 [ShaneM]
- <quote src="someURI" />
- 16:41:01 [alessio]
- yep
- 16:41:11 [oedipus]
- SM: @src brings in a URI and replaces Q
- 16:41:47 [oedipus]
- GJR: "Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain human parseable information -- such as the source of a
- 16:43:12 [oedipus]
- GJR: "Likewise, the globally available src attribute should be applied explicitly to the CITE element, so that an author can point to a standardized external reference profile for the resource encased in the CITE element. Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. "
- 16:43:40 [oedipus]
- SM: @cite is legacy - existed in HTML4; has different semantic than @href
- 16:43:48 [oedipus]
- SM: drop @src
- 16:43:58 [oedipus]
- SM: @href and @cite similar
- 16:44:07 [oedipus]
- SM: not sure how dovetails with RDFa
- 16:44:32 [oedipus]
- SM: arguable that @cite is something RDFa should process but didn't define rules for that
- 16:45:09 [oedipus]
- GJR: @href for Q points to content in context; @src for Q points to source of quote
- 16:45:13 [oedipus]
- SM: rel="cite"
- 16:45:32 [oedipus]
- s/SM: rel="cite"/SP: rel="cite"
- 16:45:39 [oedipus]
- SM: will bring up in RDFa telecon
- 16:47:21 [oedipus]
- "Currently, asssistive technologies are capable of speaking the contents of the cite attribute when one is reading a quote or blockquote and has quote identification turned on; however, the utility of a URL to provide context and continuity are exceedingly limited -- a URI should be the course of last resort. An example has been set by assistive technologies' handling of images: if no alt try title if no title, use the src value. For cite attribute, the cascade
- 16:47:55 [oedipus]
- cite in HTML4x http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE
- 16:48:04 [oedipus]
- RM: are we done with AVK's comment on cite?
- 16:48:08 [oedipus]
- SM: fixed examples
- 16:48:18 [oedipus]
- SM: KBD element
- 16:48:34 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#edef_text_kbd
- 16:49:08 [oedipus]
- current XHTML2 wording: "The kbd element indicates input to be entered by the user."
- 16:49:21 [oedipus]
- SM: response: not in our scope
- 16:49:24 [oedipus]
- RM: agree
- 16:49:27 [oedipus]
- SP: agree
- 16:49:30 [oedipus]
- GJR: agree
- 16:49:31 [alessio]
- agree
- 16:49:36 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 16:49:53 [oedipus]
- SM: AVK's next comment - use case for L is bad and doesn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace
- 16:49:56 [Steven]
- sorry, dropped the phone, just a moment
- 16:50:09 [oedipus]
- GJR: BLOCKCODE versus PRE
- 16:50:11 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 16:50:11 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 16:50:13 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 16:51:33 [oedipus]
- GJR: PRE literally as-is
- 16:51:52 [oedipus]
- GJR: BLOCKCODE can signal to assistive tech to respect and count whitespace
- 16:52:19 [oedipus]
- SM: BLOCKCODE doesn't preserve whitespace - layout attribute is irrelevant
- 16:52:48 [oedipus]
- GJR: point simply that whitespace is extremely hard to communicate to a non-visual user
- 16:53:19 [oedipus]
- GJR: python examples should be in BLOCKQUODE rather than PRE
- 16:53:38 [oedipus]
- s/BLOCKQUODE/BLOCKCODE
- 16:53:45 [oedipus]
- SM: made note to change example
- 16:54:04 [oedipus]
- SM: don't want to loose this thread
- 16:54:14 [oedipus]
- GJR: will try and explain more clearly
- 16:54:35 [oedipus]
- ACTION: Gregory - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE
- 16:54:35 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-70 - - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02].
- 16:55:24 [oedipus]
- RM: HTML5 backtracked on Q to HTML2
- 16:55:38 [oedipus]
- SM: comment "why should be done in text and not stylesheet"
- 16:55:47 [oedipus]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Q
- 16:56:16 [oedipus]
- GJR: "BLOCKQUOTE is nothing more than a presentational model taken from print conventions, rather than semantic meaning. If Q was ubiquitously implemented, one could use styling rules to create a Q instance with the properties of a block quotation -- that is, as a paragraph indented at least 5em on both left and right margins;"
- 16:56:33 [oedipus]
- GJR: favors a SINGLE quote element
- 16:56:44 [Zakim]
- -Roland
- 16:56:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: BLOCKQUOTE has no semantic meaning -- it is merely one means of many of demarcating any quote an arbitrary number of sentences long.
- 16:56:59 [oedipus]
- GJR: a quote is a quote is a quote - how it is demarcated as a quote is a presentational matter; what is important is that the material be logically and consistently marked up, so why have 2 forms of QUOTE, when only one is needed?
- 16:57:14 [oedipus]
- SM: next comment - why an A element - answer: backwards compatibility
- 16:57:23 [oedipus]
- SM: why can't one use more than one CAPTION in a list?
- 16:57:33 [oedipus]
- SP: CAPTION for entire list, not part of it
- 16:57:37 [oedipus]
- 26634
- 16:57:54 [Zakim]
- +Roland
- 16:58:23 [oedipus]
- GJR: so are we in effect setting up a cascade that says CAPTION for whole item, LEGEND for components?
- 16:58:50 [oedipus]
- SM: don't have LEGEND element anymore
- 16:59:10 [oedipus]
- GJR: i've been working within PF to reuse the LEGEND element in HTML5
- 16:59:44 [ShaneM]
- (confirmed - we no longer have a legend element in XHTML 2)
- 16:59:55 [oedipus]
- GJR: since XForms carries LABEL, and LEGEND is no longer needed for the FIELDSET model that LEGEND be reused as an organizational grouping desceriptor
- 17:00:26 [oedipus]
- RM: labelling a different discussion
- 17:01:16 [Steven]
- zakim, status?
- 17:01:16 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, Steven.
- 17:01:24 [oedipus]
- some thoughts on LEGEND: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0015.html
- 17:01:29 [Steven]
- zakim, ports?
- 17:01:29 [Zakim]
- I see 92 ports in service, 76 ports idle
- 17:01:48 [oedipus]
- SM: 10 more items in AVK's list
- 17:01:56 [oedipus]
- http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0
- 17:02:31 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 17:02:32 [oedipus]
- RM: next address 13.1
- 17:02:32 [Zakim]
- -ShaneM
- 17:02:33 [Zakim]
- -Markus
- 17:02:34 [Zakim]
- -Roland
- 17:02:39 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:02:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 17:02:42 [Zakim]
- -Gregory_Rosmaita
- 17:02:44 [Steven]
- thanks Gregory!~
- 17:02:45 [Zakim]
- -Alessio
- 17:02:46 [Zakim]
- Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended
- 17:02:47 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, Markus, Steven, Alessio, ShaneM, Tina
- 17:02:50 [oedipus]
- my pleasure
- 17:02:55 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:02:55 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 17:02:59 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop
- 17:03:53 [oedipus]
- present- [+46.7.06.02.aaaa]
- 17:03:59 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:03:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 17:04:18 [oedipus]
- present- +46.7.06.02.aaaa
- 17:04:22 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:04:22 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 17:04:49 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop
- 17:05:17 [oedipus]
- ==== ADJOURNED ====
- 17:05:25 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:05:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- 17:05:28 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop
- 17:09:34 [oedipus]
- zakim, please part
- 17:09:34 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #xhtml
- 17:09:39 [oedipus]
- rrsagent, stop