IRC log of svg on 2009-03-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:31:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:31:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-svg-irc
19:31:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:31:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
19:31:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:31:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM already started
19:31:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:31:20 [trackbot]
Date: 26 March 2009
19:32:19 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
19:32:35 [Zakim]
+??P1
19:32:44 [ed__]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
19:32:44 [Zakim]
+ed__; got it
19:33:06 [ed__]
Zakim, who's here?
19:33:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, Shepazu, ed__
19:33:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, ed__, jwatt, anthony, hsivonen, Hixie, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work
19:33:23 [jwatt]
Zakim: ??P0 is me
19:33:34 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
19:33:34 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
19:35:47 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
19:40:02 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
19:41:54 [ed__]
Zakim, pick a victim
19:41:54 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL
19:43:09 [ChrisL]
scribenick: jwatt
19:43:09 [jwatt]
scribenick: jwatt
19:43:11 [ed__]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0301.html
19:43:59 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/color/master/SVGColor.html
19:44:14 [jwatt]
ED: since Antony isn't here, let's skip Compositing for now
19:44:16 [jwatt]
topic: Color module
19:44:42 [jwatt]
CL: I've split the pagination and color sections in too
19:45:03 [jwatt]
...: we should discuss viewportFill to see if that should be updated
19:45:05 [anthony]
s/too/two/
19:45:31 [ChrisL]
The solidColor element also needs to be extended to allow the ICC etc color syntaxes.
19:47:01 [Zakim]
+??P3
19:47:04 [jwatt]
CL: we have solidColor so people don't need to specify a gradient with two stops
19:47:06 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:47:06 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
19:47:21 [ChrisL]
s/stops/stops with the same values/
19:48:12 [ChrisL]
as its a paint server lots of things can point to it and then animating it once
19:48:56 [ed__]
ED: it's planned that stop-color will have the cielab etc color syntaxes as well, yes?
19:49:12 [jwatt]
CL: if you scroll down a bit you will see the solidColor property
19:49:22 [jwatt]
...I'm taking out all this stuff:
19:49:26 [ChrisL]
i'm replacing <color> [icc-color(<name>[,<icccolorvalue>]*)] | witha single token
19:50:16 [jwatt]
CL: I'm replacing the above (scattered all over) with a single token that makes it easier to read, and less likely we'll introduce errors somewhere
19:50:48 [jwatt]
AG: I can propose wording and I have some diagrams
19:51:59 [anthony]
http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/PublishingAndPrintingWithSVG/index.html#S8.3.2
19:52:27 [jwatt]
ED: I would like to see rgba()/hsla()
19:52:38 [jwatt]
CL: that's got nothing to do with color management
19:52:56 [jwatt]
ED: no, but it does have to do with paint syntax
19:53:18 [jwatt]
CL: sure, but I was trying to leave that to CSS so as not to overlap or potentially conflict
19:54:28 [jwatt]
CL: the thing the cut out from CSS was an @rule for color profiling
19:55:10 [ChrisL]
<color> cielab(<Lightness>, <a> <b>)
19:55:44 [jwatt]
CL: I spent some time trying to figure out how you could do that with ICC color, but you can't really do it with the syntax
19:56:41 [ChrisL]
so its much simpler
19:56:58 [jwatt]
DS: I'm wondering if we can lowercase:
19:57:13 [ChrisL]
ds: can we lowercase CIE-Lab | CIE-LCHab
19:57:19 [shepazu]
CIE-LCHab to cie-lchab, etc.
19:57:30 [ChrisL]
ag: no, because that it the spelling people would expect
19:58:25 [ChrisL]
Thats the way that industry spells it so we can't really change it
19:58:50 [jwatt]
AG: I don't think it would worry people in the printing industry
19:59:23 [shepazu]
I'm actually talking about making it case-insensitive, not lowercasing it per se
19:59:31 [shepazu]
for use with CSS
19:59:46 [ChrisL]
Is it ok to group color interpolation and stop color in one section, on gradients?
19:59:59 [ChrisL]
the main use is gradients but it also affects compositing
20:01:02 [jwatt]
DS: going back to case, are we going to be using this in CSS?
20:01:08 [ChrisL]
could say thats the preferred spelling and its case insensitive
20:01:23 [ChrisL]
... in cass
20:01:57 [jwatt]
CL: I made a few testcases as well
20:02:26 [jwatt]
...: if you have an rgb profile, do you use 0-1, 0%-100%, ...?
20:02:36 [jwatt]
... the spec doesn't say
20:02:40 [shepazu]
test cases: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/color/test/svg/
20:03:33 [jwatt]
... it says it depends on the profile
20:04:05 [jwatt]
...: I think we should give some guidance here
20:06:53 [ChrisL]
rgb() has 0..255 and 0% ... 100% so I prefer to stick with tat
20:07:02 [ChrisL]
css does it that way
20:08:27 [jwatt]
ED: we should definitely allow percentages
20:09:35 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/color/test/svg/paint-sRGB-004.svg
20:10:05 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/color/test/svg/paint-sRGB-002.svg
20:11:54 [ChrisL]
fill="rgb(196,149,129) icc-color(missing, 0.1,0.2,0.3)"
20:12:04 [ChrisL]
thats the right syntax, yeah?
20:12:21 [ChrisL]
'missing' points to a non-existing profile
20:12:32 [ChrisL]
<!--- this profile will not be found -->
20:12:32 [ChrisL]
<color-profile name="missing" xlink:href="http://example.org/not-there/foo.icc"/>
20:13:04 [ChrisL]
ag: its correct
20:19:12 [ChrisL]
'deviceColor' element has waffly language about private namespaxces and stuff. i hate it.
20:20:12 [ChrisL]
... what you really want is to just use cmyk
20:20:36 [ChrisL]
ag: what about hexachrome
20:20:47 [ChrisL]
cl: good point but that shoud be color managed
20:21:21 [ChrisL]
ag: and spot colors
20:21:44 [anthony]
AG: E.g. CMYK and some pantone colour PMS 104
20:22:28 [jwatt]
CL: the primary use case people want is unmanaged CMYK, and the spec is really unclear on that
20:24:28 [jwatt]
...I want to have something that says explicitly that profiles must be used
20:24:45 [jwatt]
...since Safari and Mozilla now support it
20:25:27 [jwatt]
CL: I don't think it's a major use case to allow overriding of profiles
20:25:52 [jwatt]
AG: if you have a whole bunch of images it's easier to not have to go and edit them all
20:26:08 [jwatt]
CL: but it would encourage incorrect profiles
20:26:42 [jwatt]
...then again for small images you probably don't want to stick a 20k profile in lots of little images
20:26:54 [ChrisL]
sorry this is taking up so much time, but thanks for the good comments
20:27:00 [jwatt]
AG: code-wise it's not hard to do though
20:27:09 [jwatt]
topic: compositing
20:28:01 [jwatt]
AG: haven't addressed ED's concerns yet, but shouldn't be a big issue
20:29:15 [jwatt]
DS: our webmaster is traveling, but once he's back at the end of the month we can publish again
20:37:36 [jwatt]
[discussion of ED's comment]
20:37:53 [ChrisL]
we should be able to get those comments adressed before the next publication
20:37:57 [jwatt]
topic: Transforms module
20:38:24 [anthony]
s/Transforms module/Vector Effects/
20:39:26 [jwatt]
s/Vector Effects/Transforms module/
20:40:08 [jwatt]
ED: we had some feedback from Dean, and he's joined the WG
20:40:13 [shepazu]
discussion list for Transforms: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/
20:41:08 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0344.html
20:41:40 [jwatt]
DS: and there's been some feedback on our list
20:41:55 [jwatt]
... this is about transforms in general
20:42:01 [jwatt]
... not 3D
20:42:55 [shepazu]
http://www.khronos.org/news/press/releases/khronos-launches-initiative-for-free-standard-for-accelerated-3d-on-web/
20:43:41 [jwatt]
DS: about create a JS API
20:43:56 [jwatt]
... we should monitor it
20:45:23 [jwatt]
DS: the new list should be focused and light traffic
20:45:36 [jwatt]
... focused on transforms, animation and transitions
20:45:48 [jwatt]
... features SVG and CSS are going to have in common going forward
20:46:19 [jwatt]
... we want to try and direct feedback on our spec on these issues to this list
20:47:45 [jwatt]
... the CSS WG will try and do the same
20:48:11 [jwatt]
... now that they've agreed to use a common list, and it's been created, we can publicize this
20:49:28 [jwatt]
ED: the public can send email to this list
20:52:49 [jwatt]
AG: I'd like to add back the perspective-origin property
20:53:23 [jwatt]
...I think the overall idea that CSS has for perspective transforms is useful
20:53:37 [jwatt]
DS: should we be making two different specs?
20:53:57 [jwatt]
...or should both groups be making a joint spec?
20:54:11 [jwatt]
ED: maybe we should have a joint telcon
20:56:01 [jwatt]
DS: are the differences large enough to have two specs
20:56:31 [jwatt]
CL: I'm not sure the groups will agree on syntax
20:57:35 [jwatt]
DS: there's some very SVG specific text in our transforms module
20:57:46 [jwatt]
... but we could split that out
20:58:54 [jwatt]
AG: that could just be an extension
21:00:22 [jwatt]
DS: or we could have an abstract spec, and the two groups could have reference that in their own specs
21:00:44 [jwatt]
CL: that might work
21:01:09 [jwatt]
DS: implementers don't want to have to deal with two different ways of doing transforms
21:01:12 [jwatt]
JW: indeed
21:02:47 [jwatt]
AG: well we could even end up with four or five specs (if CSS split 2D and 3D, and if we did the same)
21:04:49 [jwatt]
action: Doug to arrange a joint telcon
21:04:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2504 - Arrange a joint telcon [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-04-02].
21:09:39 [ed__]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0271.html
21:10:24 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
21:10:26 [Zakim]
-anthony
21:10:27 [ChrisL]
zakim, list participants
21:10:27 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, ed__, jwatt, ChrisL, anthony
21:10:30 [Zakim]
-ed__
21:10:36 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:10:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
21:10:45 [ChrisL]
(wait a bit for it to be generated)
21:11:10 [ChrisL]
then lastly go to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-svg-minutes.html,text to get the text version
21:11:54 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
21:11:59 [Zakim]
-jwatt
21:12:00 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:12:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, ed__, jwatt, ChrisL, anthony
22:26:57 [heycam]
heycam has joined #svg
22:27:14 [heycam]
apologies for missing the telcon; forgot to set my alarm
22:27:55 [anthony]
at least you forgot to set your alarm. I set my alarm and was still 15 mins late :P
22:30:37 [heycam]
:)
22:32:00 [anthony]
so, heycam, we decided to stick the current telcon time
22:32:09 [anthony]
until AU daylight saving changes over
22:32:22 [heycam]
ok. which is after next week?
22:32:22 [anthony]
so looks like we'll still be setting our alarms for next week
22:32:26 [heycam]
ok
22:32:38 [anthony]
5th April we drop daylight saving
22:32:41 [anthony]
which is a Sun
22:33:26 [anthony]
yes, so answer to your question after next week
22:33:32 [heycam]
cool
22:40:50 [heycam]
RRSAgent, quit
22:40:50 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'quit', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:40:53 [heycam]
RRSAgent, bye
22:40:53 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-svg-actions.rdf :
22:40:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to arrange a joint telcon [1]
22:40:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-svg-irc#T21-04-49